Touhou Smash crowdfunding and ZUN's fancreation rules (discussion thread)

[aUsernameIsFineToo]

I think it all boils down to the fact that an indiegogo campaign was set up and hints at release through "mainstream" means were made. Nothing about the game itself seems illegal. Rather, it's the way you presented it that breaks the rules regarding derivative works.

making it look as if your "subscribers" on youtube/facebook are more important than people over at MotK

YouTube: a place where comments are almost like 4chan, only outside of 4chan. Often times they're so degenerate that I have a hard time believing I'm NOT on that website itself.

Facebook: despite the fact that people's names and other personally-identifying information are available and clearly linked to them, immature and crass remarks still get made regularly.

Of course, websites like that would have much less constructive discussion than what goes on here. The biggest reason being that they're catered to the entire internet rather than dedicated fans. Reality check, for those that aren't already convinced, but most of the internet would go dark if an "internet license" came into policy.

Allowing sites like YouTube and Facebook to become the "majority's" voice just seems like a VERY BAD IDEA, for the reasons I've stated above. It's easy for that to happen, and once it does, things usually never turn out right.

[Helepolis]

Apparently MotK isn't as important as his youtube/facebook subscribers.

Saijee has been answering almost each and every comment on Youtube. I am seeing "Replied 1 hour ago" on the comments. It is 16:09 here in NL, meaning that around 15:00 he was posting/answering. Accordingly went to bed 3-4 hours ago.

You're doing great Saijee. Keep on ignoring us.

[aUsernameIsFineToo]

I can see why he might be ignoring us, for the very reason I made in my previous post. The majority of YouTube users are taking advantage of the almost complete lack of moderation on the comments section of the site, and thus spouting whatever they please.

[N-Forza]

To be fair, he has no obligation to contact us, but I admit it would be easier if he would.

I'm still not sure where "we can't hire animators" is coming from though. Even if you can't pay anyone else to help, you could possibly find someone else to join your circle, even as a "guest", to do that.

[Paz legalces]

FSS is more likely to respond on YouTube and Facebook about concerns brought up here, which I find odd. They can't even get Yonjin's name right.
Maybe it's because there's less fanboying around here.
I'm beginning to think that MotK is largely an afterthought, because members here (as opposed to those on Facebook or YouTube) are more critical, less likely to bootlick, and more likely to present hard facts, because we care about the community as a whole.

Sorry for jumping into the thread outta nowhere but just want to be a little more specific that Saijee seems to be only responding to his own Youtube channel and HIS OWN facebook page (as opposed to other facebook pages where he also barely responded)
I am just going to give him the benefits of doubt to say that perhaps his own channels are his main communication priority (make senses as responding to inquiries within your own pages is necessarily a duty; while as responding to comments from other pages and MoTK is essentially an option)
*Also, bootlick is a tad... excessive; I can assure you there are as much people who shows disapproval for the project on fb as there are here... we all care about the community*
Anyhow, someone forwarded me a part of his pov regarding the twitters and communication controversies... not sure where exactly it was posted originally but I do believe this offer some of his POV on the Yonji incident; well it doesn't justify anything... just thought it was an interesting read

[Colticide]

I can see why he might be ignoring us, for the very reason I made in my previous post. The majority of YouTube users are taking advantage of the almost complete lack of moderation on the comments section of the site, and thus spouting whatever they please.

A lot of them seem ignorant to the problems people had with everything. Some still gave money and wasn't even aware of the problems going on, they seem to reliant on FSS giving them information and thus it could be seen that FSS can control what information is put out. Especially when FSS give misinformation in terms of a video which is not easily editable.

To be fair, he has no obligation to contact us, but I admit it would be easier if he would.

I'm still not sure where "we can't hire animators" is coming from though. Even if you can't pay anyone else to help, you could possibly find someone else to join your circle, even as a "guest", to do that.

Exactly, they would be surprised at how many people who want to offer help just to get their name out there, heck even I tried but what I'm good at wasn't needed anymore.

[Reu]

Apparently MotK isn't as important as his youtube/facebook subscribers.

Saijee has been answering almost each and every comment on Youtube. I am seeing "Replied 1 hour ago" on the comments. It is 16:09 here in NL, meaning that around 15:00 he was posting/answering. Accordingly went to bed 3-4 hours ago.

You're doing great Saijee. Keep on ignoring us.

It's not ignoring you.
There's reasons why HIS own pages should be prioritized.
1. It's easier to reply and read messages compared to on a forum seeing how he has to reply to 3(?) pages of replies.
2.Many of the donators asked questions there and it's better to handle misinformation and inform them of their situations.

[Colticide]

It's not ignoring you.
There's reasons why HIS own pages should be prioritized.
1. It's easier to reply and read messages compared to on a forum seeing how he has to reply to 3(?) pages of replies.
2.Many of the donators asked questions there and it's better to handle misinformation and inform them of their situations.

I do agree, but Saijee did start this thread himself, his kept this thread up to date with everything else and stopped once the Indiegogo thing started. He has as much responsibility to his own thread as he does his TY and FB pages.   

[Helepolis]

It's not ignoring you.
There's reasons why HIS own pages should be prioritized.
1. It's easier to reply and read messages compared to on a forum seeing how he has to reply to 3(?) pages of replies.
2.Many of the donators asked questions there and it's better to handle misinformation and inform them of their situations.

I am pretty sure the problem isn't with prioritization (that is his choice and like Forza said). That wasn't exactly what I was pointing out. Mind you, if you haven't read the previous pages I would kindly suggest to do so. Or maybe in fact the whole thread would be a good start.

Of course not everybody reads MotK forums and I am neither suggesting the youtubers/facebookers to become a member so everything is discussed here. That isn't the point either.

I do agree, but Saijee did start this thread himself, his kept this thread up to date with everything else and stopped once the Indiegogo thing started. He has as much responsibility to his own thread as he does his TY and FB pages.

Not to mention that I took the initiative on suggesting Saijee in a PM to split the thread to avoid the Crowdfunding incident from messing up his main development thread. So once the situation had been fixed/solved, he could peacefully continue with his main dev thread and this would be archived/locked.

That is why this thread got split. I aint doing this because "Look at me, I am being nice". I am doing this because I care about Touhou fan projects and I care about organization. I take such things quite seriously. But we also respect ZUN's creation guidelines in the process. Hence why I even made the first comment on page 1 along with Forza "This aint a good idea Saijee".

And look where we are now?

[aUsernameIsFineToo]

A lot of them seem ignorant to the problems people had with everything.

There's that, too. Many people aren't getting the information they need, and with something on a large scale like this, information needs to be spread as soon as possible, before things get further out-of-hand.

I'm sure we all have differing opinions on how that information should be spread.

[Vento]

It's not like motk is the best/no.1 touhou discussion platform but i think its really sad that forza and the other's effort to help all got ignored because of the aforementioned lack of bootlicking. 

I don't get why the video had to be so condescending...?? "no japanese go hack & patch the game yourself" as well as reiterating the reason for not using MMD models?  that was really immature and unprofessional. it was really painful as a "western touhou fan" to watch the response to the issue
 the voice module thing and the "trying to damage control but massively failing to" tone was really uncalled for, not to mention those animations, for what purpose?? heck i couldnt even understand the video cause people were busying trying to be impressive and/or funny.

YouTube: a place where comments are almost like 4chan, only outside of 4chan. Often times they're so degenerate that I have a hard time believing I'm NOT on that website itself.

except that even 4chan understands that indie=/=doujin culture and all the other topics brought up in this thread, meanwhile youtube subscribers just care about getting a western touhou doujin game huh? But I guess they got Saijee's undivided attention lol :v

[Drake]

Anyhow, someone forwarded me a part of his pov regarding the twitters and communication controversies... not sure where exactly it was posted originally but I do believe this offer some of his POV on the Yonji incident; well it doesn't justify anything... just thought it was an interesting read

"It just so happened that [Yonjin] would not stop tweeting me" - He sent one tweet, then just replied as Saijee replied.
"Frustrated with the limitations of the medium" - While sure I get that, the first thing he says is that the guidelines need to be updated. His responses don't have much to do with not getting enough of his thoughts across, but rather that they were just bad responses.
"Withholding information" - Again, no: exactly the opposite, in this case.
"Can't answer accurately" - Then A) say that you can't provide an answer, or B) don't answer. He was getting into trouble because his answers were poorly thought out.
Just my observations on that post.

There is zero shame in asking for help and advice.

[aUsernameIsFineToo]

except that even 4chan understands that indie=/=doujin culture and all the other topics brought up in this thread

That's where the "almost like" comes in. To clarify, I was getting at the immaturity of comments generally found on both sites.

[zferolie]

I still don't see how he commenting there first means he is ignoring here. Facebook and youtube have a lot more visual views then here, and it makes sense to prioritize answering there. I am sure he will come here as soon as he can.

As for not being able to hire animators, perhaps it is too expensive? I did suggest they put out an ad for animators who can do it for free or cheap. I think if he transcribes the youtube video in japanese he can maybe find some japanese doujin people willing to help.

The youtube comments range from good to damn stupid, one guy saying that japan wants to keep all the touhou to itself. that just stupid.

I am still curious if they are allowed donations and if selling from their own site via paypal is allowed

[aUsernameIsFineToo]

I am still curious if they are allowed donations and if selling from their own site via paypal is allowed

I believe that donations in the sense of "pure support", without any reciprocation, would be legal. As for selling on a personal site, I can't think of whether that's allowed. All I know is that the notion of donationware was brought up.

[Spotty Len]

I still don't see how he commenting there first means he is ignoring here. Facebook and youtube have a lot more visual views then here, and it makes sense to prioritize answering there. I am sure he will come here as soon as he can.

I am not sure quantity is better than quality in this case, especially when we are talking about Youtube and Facebook comments. People have been trying their hardest in the last pages to help him and try to find solutions, but he said himself he didn't read anything that has been written. Unless a miracle happens and Youtube and Facebook comments suddenly become an intelligent and reliable source, I think he is better off using his time to discuss and think with the people that know about this kind of project over here instead of answering to everybody in a non-moderated comment section.

[Alcoraiden]

The whole debacle is over. The game is going to be made. And frankly, you guys have been so harsh on Saijee that I see why he hasn't kept up with this thread. MotK has zero entitlement to their attention. We are not an official authority, and yes I include myself in this of course. We are a fan community like any other, and while yes we were giving good advice, whining and sulking like kids about Saijee prioritizing his main channels of communication is, well, childish and entitled. Would it have been a good idea to read this thread? Yes. Should you use this as an excuse not to speak diplomatically and just rage at him while insisting you can sound however you want because you are offering advice? No. I think most of this issue could have been discussed without the vitriol and snark. But of course this is the internet and nobody seems to care about tone.

This post doesn't apply to all people in the thread, of course. But I expected MotK to act more reasonably than this. After all, "I'm just being honest" is not an excuse.

[zferolie]

I am not sure quantity is better than quality in this case, especially when we are talking about Youtube and Facebook comments. People have been trying their hardest in the last pages to help him and try to find solutions, but he said himself he didn't read anything that has been written. Unless a miracle happens and Youtube and Facebook comments suddenly become an intelligent and reliable source, I think he is better off using his time to discuss and think with the people that know about this kind of project over here instead of answering to everybody in a non-moderated comment section.

True true. I just think is he responding there first, and has been overwhelmed so far. But that may be me always seeing everything as a glass half full.

I believe that donations in the sense of "pure support", without any reciprocation, would be legal. As for selling on a personal site, I can't think of whether that's allowed. All I know is that the notion of donationware was brought up.

indeed. It would be good to clearify if they can sell this on their personal site. If not, they are forced to sell only at anime conventions, or get a booth at a doujin con in japan, which is not very easy at all.

The whole debacle is over. The game is going to be made. And frankly, you guys have been so harsh on Saijee that I see why he hasn't kept up with this thread. MotK has zero entitlement to their attention. We are not an official authority, and yes I include myself in this of course. We are a fan community like any other, and while yes we were giving good advice, whining and sulking like kids about Saijee prioritizing his main channels of communication is, well, childish and entitled. Would it have been a good idea to read this thread? Yes. Should you use this as an excuse not to speak diplomatically and just rage at him while insisting you can sound however you want because you are offering advice? No. I think most of this issue could have been discussed without the vitriol and snark. But of course this is the internet and nobody seems to care about tone.

This post doesn't apply to all people in the thread, of course. But I expected MotK to act more reasonably than this. After all, "I'm just being honest" is not an excuse.

Harsh, but also telling the truth and being realistic. Everyone here it seems wants this to succeed, but also wants it done right and not to have the japanese look down on the american touhou fan.

[Disgaeafan1]

I am not sure quantity is better than quality in this case, especially when we are talking about Youtube and Facebook comments. People have been trying their hardest in the last pages to help him and try to find solutions, but he said himself he didn't read anything that has been written. Unless a miracle happens and Youtube and Facebook comments suddenly become an intelligent and reliable source, I think he is better off using his time to discuss and think with the people that know about this kind of project over here instead of answering to everybody in a non-moderated comment section.

This may be true, as far as reading intelligent discussion is concerned, but Saijee is basically obligated to control the situation on Facebook and Youtube first. This is because that is where the bulk of his contributors are. As of right now, the first thing that has to be done is assuaging the fears of those whose money FSS has taken. After that situation is under control, Saijee can return his thoughts to distribution, development, and the other problems outlined in this thread.

[Helepolis]

The whole debacle is over. The game is going to be made. And frankly, you guys have been so harsh on Saijee that I see why he hasn't kept up with this thread. MotK has zero entitlement to their attention. We are not an official authority, and yes I include myself in this of course. We are a fan community like any other, and while yes we were giving good advice, whining and sulking like kids about Saijee prioritizing his main channels of communication is, well, childish and entitled. Would it have been a good idea to read this thread? Yes. Should you use this as an excuse not to speak diplomatically and just rage at him while insisting you can sound however you want because you are offering advice? No. I think most of this issue could have been discussed without the vitriol and snark. But of course this is the internet and nobody seems to care about tone.

This post doesn't apply to all people in the thread, of course. But I expected MotK to act more reasonably than this. After all, "I'm just being honest" is not an excuse.

I'll speak for myself that I have been indeed harsh but that is because I disapprove his methods and way of posting. Coming over here and saying this is wrong in all directions. And I take that as a form of insult.

Communication is the key. Mind you Alcoraiden, since you're defending his actions, he could've simply told us: Yo I am sorry, I need to prioritize my communications because of this incident and will try to get to you guys after I handled youtube/facebook" Then mainly me would go: "Ah ok, that is cool. Thanks for letting us know. But do please update." (Edit: Yes he did announce the video I am aware of that, but see previous mentions about the other fuzzy parts.)

How hard is that? After 13 pages of patience we've been through, how hard is that?

Edit: If you didn't notice let me rephrase above in one line: His words didn't match his actions. And that is why some people snapped, including myself.

Edit 2:

This may be true, as far as reading intelligent discussion is concerned, but Saijee is basically obligated to control the situation on Facebook and Youtube first. This is because that is where the bulk of his contributors are. As of right now, the first thing that has to be done is assuaging the fears of those whose money FSS has taken. After that situation is under control, Saijee can return his thoughts to distribution, development, and the other problems outlined in this thread.

After rereading this post I had to quote it to state that this is indeed important as well. Hence I said above "communication is the key" and "just let us know".

[aUsernameIsFineToo]

they are forced to sell only at anime conventions, or get a booth at a doujin con in japan, which is not very easy at all.

I'm sure they can get someone like N-Forza to help distribute the game if he's willing to. All they need to do is to send a CD (or burnable image) to him, which is enough to create multiple copies. As for packaging, don't most software sold at doujin cons come in a translucent plastic wrapper? Don't know if LightScribe is still relevant, but I guess that would suffice for a labeling solution. Then there's the possible need to translate it for the Japanese population, which might need some degree of assistance from those who'd help.

All in all, selling in physical format would be more difficult than offering the game online, but at least to me it doesn't look too hard to pull off.

[Colticide]

Not to mention that this is a discussion thread, we may be harsh but that's also because we care. If a developer gets nothing but praise and no one raises issue that they have, then the dev will continue their work like nothing is wrong. They have no way of improving in future if that's the case, plus a big things is... their developers, they are gonna get this for the rest of their career. All companies get this done to them on a much bigger scale then this, we are trying to give constructive criticism while trying to learn whats going on, while a lot of the other bigger guys get people who just flame for the sake of flaming.

Harsh, yes, but it's for the good of things, we learned a lot from this mess believe it or not.

EDIT: Actually IIRC from when this tread began when he first started working on this game there was so much unneeded flaming about his project, people geting angry at him for not using MMD models and what not. To say we are being way to harsh on him is a understatement when compared to how he first started. His 3d models have been criticized everywhere, even before he came here. I seen him trying to get the game show to people on many different forums and get berated for it.   

[aUsernameIsFineToo]

we are trying to give constructive criticism while trying to learn whats going on

This.
Upvoted.
+1'd.

It pretty much explains the mindset most of us (myself included) have with regards to this debacle.

[Helepolis]

However, I do have to agree with Alcoraiden that the incident seems resolved.

WiiU misunderstanding -> Solved. Blogs have been adjusted or reblogged. I've also seen tweets going around about this.
Crowdfunding not in line with Touhou's fan creation rules -> Solved. Seems FSS had contact with them and according to the transcript from Tohosubs this has been explained.

I also noted Yonjin-san tweeting about the video message from FSS so that news is circling around in the eastern fandom I guess.

So, that leaves no further incidents or issues. If I am not mistaking?

[Colticide]

However, I do have to agree with Alcoraiden that the incident seems resolved.

WiiU misunderstanding -> Solved. Blogs have been adjusted or reblogged. I've also seen tweets going around about this.
Crowdfunding not in line with Touhou's fan creation rules -> Solved. Seems FSS had contact with them and according to the transcript from Tohosubs this has been explained.

I also noted Yonjin-san tweeting about the video message from FSS so that news is circling around in the eastern fandom I guess.

So, that leaves no further incidents or issues. If I am not mistaking?

Pretty much, the only thing is just clean up and communication really.

[Tengukami]

I'm sure they can get someone like N-Forza to help distribute the game if he's willing to.

NForza has already offered to try and sell this game as a physical copy.

Also, can anyone please clarify how, exactly, this game will be distributed, i.e., will it abide ZUN's guidelines here for doujin distribution?

As to the scolding about how mean everyone was: I don't buy it. Hele's right that there was some pretty skeezy and entitled behavior at the outset of this thing, and a lot of coy, obfuscating replies. That things are (I guess almost) alright now doesn't magically make that all better. If folks were harsh, I think their frustration is entirely understandable.

[aUsernameIsFineToo]

Also, can anyone please clarify how, exactly, this game will be distributed, i.e., will it abide ZUN's guidelines here for doujin distribution?

I guess setting up a section at doujin events (like Reitaisai) and of course, giving due credit to ZUN for the usage of his characters and general musical works, would fit under the definition of legal distribution.

EDIT: at least that's what I gather from his official guidelines on distribution of derivative works.

[Helepolis]

NForza has already offered to try and sell this game as a physical copy.

Ye, Forza had offered it in page 8. For those who missed it.

[Tengukami]

I guess setting up a section at doujin events (like Reitaisai) and of course, giving due credit to ZUN for the usage of his characters and general musical works, would fit under the definition of legal distribution.

EDIT: at least that's what I gather from his official guidelines on distribution of derivative works.

Yes, that's true. But my question is with regards to online distribution. As was brought up a few times, that would have to occur in "non-public" (i.e. Touhou fandom space) areas, with the aforementioned ZUN credit on the download page. Is that what's going on here? Maybe I missed it, sorry if it was already mentioned.

[aUsernameIsFineToo]

I think the question is whether the game can be sold online. The rules regarding that are still in the making, if I remember correctly, and it was already stated that distributing the game as donationware was okay. Also worth mentioning is that there are numerous Touhou fangames all over the internet distributed using that method.

Addendum: if the game is to be sold, the only 100%-legal method would be through physical media distributed at doujin conventions. The alternative would be to offer it for free on a personal hosting service.