Author Topic: Touhou Smash crowdfunding and ZUN's fancreation rules (discussion thread) (Read 254011 times)

Saijee · « **on:** January 08, 2015, 05:56:11 AM »

Moderation note: This thread will function as the crowdfunding discussion about Touhou Smash. The posts originally belonged to https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,16954.0.html but for sake of keeping the overview, it has been split. Please discuss the fan creation guidelines and rules here. For the actual game and development discussion, go to the given link. -Helepolis

Nope I always play it on GC controllers. Though it does support keybaord play.

Artistic contributions huh? Well promo art feat. the TSSB designs is never a bad thing.

in other news:

After literally not sleeping for 30 hours straight, THE CROWED FUNDING CAMPAIGN HAS LAUNCHED!!!! Help us raise funds to build more characters at a faster rate! Vote for your favorite characters, insure you get a copy upon release, GET YOUR FAVORITE MAIDEN 100% CONFIRMED! The choices are endless! https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/touhou-super-smash-battles/x/3932426

Colticide · « **Reply #1 on:** January 08, 2015, 06:11:00 AM »

You guys did a fantastic job on the stages and backgrounds, very impressed!

Helepolis · « **Reply #2 on:** January 08, 2015, 08:18:52 AM »

Quote from: Saijee on January 08, 2015, 05:56:11 AM

After literally not sleeping for 30 hours straight, THE CROWED FUNDING CAMPAIGN HAS LAUNCHED!!!! Help us raise funds to build more characters at a faster rate! Vote for your favorite characters, insure you get a copy upon release, GET YOUR FAVORITE MAIDEN 100% CONFIRMED! The choices are endless! https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/touhou-super-smash-battles/x/3932426

Was noted on IRC and good to consider. Isn't this going to backfire because of the terms for creating derived work based on ZUN's fan creation guidelines? Or did you already conducted research on that part?

Saijee · « **Reply #3 on:** January 08, 2015, 08:39:41 AM »

That has yet to be seen, we did email ZUN a few weeks back.

Helepolis · « **Reply #4 on:** January 08, 2015, 08:44:57 AM »

That aint really smart to launch the funding before receiving permission. Sounds like a bit impatience on your hand.

Either way, there isn't an exact written rule about crowd funding but it does clearly state that everything done on own expenses doesn't require permission. Depending how crowd funding is judged by ZUN, it is technically no longer your own expenses. Crowd funding is basically a buzz word for individual sponsoring so we just have to wait and see.

N-Forza · « **Reply #5 on:** January 08, 2015, 01:51:36 PM »

Yeah, I think that starting up a crowdfunding campaign before receiving permission from ZUN, even with recent changes regarding his games and fan games on other platforms, seems like a poor idea. Even saying that you contacted him really doesn't mean anything, because he could have very easily ignored/overlooked it.

game2011 · « **Reply #6 on:** January 08, 2015, 02:04:00 PM »

Sites talking about this game all have people criticizing the character models and "man faces," though I doubt anything will be changed in the final product, since you made it clear that this kind of design is your cup of tea.

Totaku · « **Reply #7 on:** January 08, 2015, 02:29:28 PM »

Quote from: N-Forza on January 08, 2015, 01:51:36 PM

Yeah, I think that starting up a crowdfunding campaign before receiving permission from ZUN, even with recent changes regarding his games and fan games on other platforms, seems like a poor idea. Even saying that you contacted him really doesn't mean anything, because he could have very easily ignored/overlooked it.

This is something I'm going to have to agree with 100%. If anyone remembers what happen to this Card Game. Everything from that applies to here.

When they attempted to start a crowdfunding campaign, they too reached out to ZUN, but as it turned out, he found out that they did a kickstarter and when he finally replied to them he made it clear to the makers of the team this:

When it comes to developing deviated work, he will not allow works that were funded through crowd sourcing as to his view "this was not how he allows deviated works to be done (because the dev team was receiving money from supporters to make the game)".

You best be prepared to deal with ZUN notifying you the same way he notified the Card Game Group. Because you're going to almost likely be having to return the money you get from the supporters back.

Helepolis · « **Reply #8 on:** January 08, 2015, 07:38:29 PM »

Quote

We, and Team Shanghai Alice, have concluded that Kickstarter is not an appropriate method regarding production of dōjinshi materials for Touhou Project. The reason for this is because receiving funds before production is considered an investment, and a method like this can not yet be recognized with the production of dōjinshi materials for Touhou Project.

So yea, that is pretty much the deal here like Totaku pointed out. So receiving any form of investment for and during production is conflicting with the fan creation rules. This is why ZUN is allowing derived work as long as it is done with your own resources. Help from friends/people or forum members in terms of assistance (development) remain free from this.

Alcoraiden · « **Reply #9 on:** January 08, 2015, 08:03:36 PM »

Please. Please, please, *please* make this even if you have to bail out of Indiegogo. I will accept the money back I gave and donate it or whatever. Oh my gosh.

The Touhou card game looked amazing, and I'm sad it just kind of...died. This looks SO WONDERFUL. Please don't just trash it if this goes south.

Colticide · « **Reply #10 on:** January 08, 2015, 08:08:19 PM »

Quote from: Alcoraiden on January 08, 2015, 08:03:36 PM

The Touhou card game looked amazing, and I'm sad it just kind of...died. This looks SO WONDERFUL. Please don't just trash it if this goes south.

Well worry not, we just so happen to have another card game that isn't being funded by crowd funding on the forums called Danmaku!!.

But it would be a shame for this to go fully away, but there are so many circles that game touhou games with out needing to crowd fund, making games is expensive and talks a lot of time, but it's not fair for those who can't crowd fund. Just gotta do what everyone else has to do.

Alcoraiden · « **Reply #11 on:** January 08, 2015, 08:11:09 PM »

I know about it, but I think that people should be able to get help with things like "having professional programs." Saying "just go back and use your own money" like it's a badge of honor kind of rankles me there.

A lot of Touhou fan games don't look this good or show this much promise. I've played a lot. I can't say all of them are the most...professional-game-like. This one really has potential if you ask me. Surely it's possible to finagle what the money is technically/legally going to in order to make this fly. (Say, "please donate so we can buy Maya," not "please donate so we can make this game.")

Also, it's a Western game, and I want to encourage a Western presence in the doujin community.

Helepolis · « **Reply #12 on:** January 08, 2015, 08:33:08 PM »

Quote from: Alcoraiden on January 08, 2015, 08:11:09 PM

I know about it, but I think that people should be able to get help with things like "having professional programs." Saying "just go back and use your own money" like it's a badge of honor kind of rankles me there.

A lot of Touhou fan games don't look this good or show this much promise. I've played a lot. I can't say all of them are the most...professional-game-like. This one really has potential if you ask me. Surely it's possible to finagle what the money is technically/legally going to in order to make this fly. (Say, "please donate so we can buy Maya," not "please donate so we can make this game.")

Also, it's a Western game, and I want to encourage a Western presence in the doujin community.

I think you're misunderstanding the situation here. ZUN holds, regardless whether you conflicting with his guidelines or not, to claim copyright owner on this work. Meaning he can demand to seize any fan-game, derived work or Touhou related things in production or on sale/release. It doesn't matter whether they are free or paid. If he thinks you're being disrespectful to his already flexible fan creation guidelines it would only negatively impact your reputation and he might act upon it.

We too want Touhou Smash Brothers to be a final product and played by fans, but Saijee needs to start thinking like a professional here. You're enthusiasm is positive, but it isn't helping him nor this game on getting to be finished. You don't get to decide whether this game is released or not, ZUN does.

zferolie · « **Reply #13 on:** January 08, 2015, 08:41:22 PM »

Quote from: Helepolis on January 08, 2015, 08:33:08 PM

I think you're misunderstanding the situation here. ZUN holds, regardless whether you conflicting with his guidelines or not, to claim copyright owner on this work. Meaning he can demand to seize any fan-game, derived work or Touhou related things in production or on sale/release. It doesn't matter whether they are free or paid. If he thinks you're being disrespectful to his already flexible fan creation guidelines it would only negatively impact your reputation and he might act upon it.

We too want Touhou Smash Brothers to be a final product and played by fans, but Saijee needs to start thinking like a professional here. You're enthusiasm is positive, but it isn't helping him nor this game on getting to be finished. You don't get to decide whether this game is released or not, ZUN does.

That is what I am worried about. ZUN is quite protective of his property. He can shut this down at any moment(at least the crowd funding part). I assumed he asked him and got an ok already before doing this. Not getting an ok is quite risky.

That being said, even if he gives the OK for the funding, I am not sure if he'll give the OK on having this on the Wii U. He only JUST let fan games go on PS4 and vita, so I doubt he'll let it on the Wii U.

I am quite excited about this though, and am very tempted to put 1600 to get Tewi in. I am a little annoyed that the price goes up for each character. Why is that? Also, do we get any say on moveset design and other parts of the character we get in? I think we should and would help me justify putting my favorite character in.

Other then that, game looks pretty good. Not a huge fan of the models but the will easily grow on me.

Alcoraiden · « **Reply #14 on:** January 08, 2015, 08:50:02 PM »

Yeah I had honestly assumed "we emailed ZUN" had an implicit "and he emailed us back and said sure" because of the card game debacle I thought everyone kinda knew about. :-/

Colticide · « **Reply #15 on:** January 08, 2015, 08:51:49 PM »

The only thing we know is that an email was sent to Zun while this is up, so risky indeed. If Zun does give his OK, then I'm fine with it. I however will not donate, it's the same as pre ordering, I'm not willing to put money forth for a product that's not out yet or finished.

Over $1000 seems huge for a character, I do however understand that making a character take a huge amount of time and is a lot of work, but that's a house payment! That's almost 2 months rent for me, only those that are willing to put that much money into it really should be considered investors and not just donators.

zferolie · « **Reply #16 on:** January 08, 2015, 08:58:56 PM »

Quote from: Colticide on January 08, 2015, 08:51:49 PM

The only thing we know is that an email was sent to Zun while this is up, so risky indeed. If Zun does give his OK, then I'm fine with it. I however will not donate, it's the same as pre ordering, I'm not willing to put money forth for a product that's not out yet or finished.

Over $1000 seems huge for a character, I do however understand that making a character take a huge amount of time and is a lot of work, but that's a house payment! That's almost 2 months rent for me, only those that are willing to put that much money into it really should be considered investors and not just donators.

All crowdfunded games are pretty much preordering varies special editions of the game. Luckily almost all the ones I have back have turned out well and the people are legit. These guys also look like they know what they are doing, with months of work and past games (Glass wings looks very good indeed)

Sadly thats not how these things work, but for things over 1000 one should be expecting to get a lot of control in what they are putting in the game, or a lot of goodies. Like when I gave over 2k to the gender bender game, I got to fully design a whole story mode for that game. Characters, choices, story, all that. For this, I hope its more then just, you pick the character. You should be some say on the characters moveset, or at least they work with you, and you get a credit in the game.

Savory · « **Reply #17 on:** January 08, 2015, 09:04:56 PM »

What worries me the most is that he's attempting to release a fangame for a doujin series based on the mechanics of a party fighter on the Nintendo eShop. But yeah, crowdfunding this game (especially without ZUN's okay on the matter) also seems like bad idea based on what everyone has been saying.

zferolie · « **Reply #18 on:** January 08, 2015, 09:07:55 PM »

Quote from: Savory on January 08, 2015, 09:04:56 PM

What worries me the most is that he's attempting to release a fangame for a doujin series based on the mechanics of a party fighter on the Nintendo eShop. But yeah, crowdfunding this game (especially without ZUN's okay on the matter) also seems like bad idea based on what everyone has been saying.

Yeah, I think that part is never gonna happen. PC maybe but ZUN I doubt would allow the game on the e-shop. It took ages just to get some on PS4.

Saijee · « **Reply #19 on:** January 08, 2015, 09:29:33 PM »

Let's be absolutely clear hear, I never actually said that this game was going to be on the Wii U.
I happen to be a Wii U Dev that is intending to make a Wii U game that uses the game pad, a remake of glass wing, but at the time happen to be making a Touhou game, and testing it using the Game Cube Controller in anticipation that it might be able to get on the Wii U too.

As for the campaign thing, I'm no fool. I've dug very deep on that Kickstarter, even going as far as talking to the people who were running the campaign. There is another side to that story that is not clear on the surface, I'll talk about it more in my video today.

I've thought this all the way through, I have a plan.

zferolie · « **Reply #20 on:** January 08, 2015, 09:32:30 PM »

Quote from: Saijee on January 08, 2015, 09:29:33 PM

Let's be absolutely clear hear, I never actually said that this game was going to be on the Wii U.
I happen to be a Wii U Dev that is intending to make a Wii U game that uses the game pad, a remake of glass wing, but at the time happen to be making a Touhou game, and testing it using the Game Cube Controller in anticipation that it might be able to get on the Wii U too.

As for the campaign thing, I'm no fool. I've dug very deep on that Kickstarter, even going as far as talking to the people who were running the campaign. There is another side to that story that is not clear on the surface, I'll talk about it more in my video today.

I've thought this all the way through, I have a plan.

Ah ok. News sites were claiming it will be on the e-shop, and that just raised some red flags for me. I look forward to seeing your video and hopefully it clarifies some things.

How about the character choice teirs? I just want my questions answered before I decide to go for it to get Tewi in the game (posted them on here and the indiegogo comments)

EDIT: Also, I pla to buy glasswing this weekend. It looks really good! You really made that in a month?! It took me 2 months to make touhou pong, and couldn't get everything I wanted in it.

Alcoraiden · « **Reply #21 on:** January 08, 2015, 09:43:08 PM »

Quote from: Saijee on January 08, 2015, 09:29:33 PM

Let's be absolutely clear hear, I never actually said that this game was going to be on the Wii U.
I happen to be a Wii U Dev that is intending to make a Wii U game that uses the game pad, a remake of glass wing, but at the time happen to be making a Touhou game, and testing it using the Game Cube Controller in anticipation that it might be able to get on the Wii U too.

As for the campaign thing, I'm no fool. I've dug very deep on that Kickstarter, even going as far as talking to the people who were running the campaign. There is another side to that story that is not clear on the surface, I'll talk about it more in my video today.

I've thought this all the way through, I have a plan.

I am thrilled to bits to hear it, as well as to learn what else might've gone on with the old Kickstarter.

Savory · « **Reply #22 on:** January 08, 2015, 09:44:10 PM »

Quote from: zferolie on January 08, 2015, 09:32:30 PM

News sites were claiming it will be on the e-shop, and that just raised some red flags for me.

Yeah, pretty much.

Saijee · « **Reply #23 on:** January 08, 2015, 10:17:35 PM »

Quote from: zferolie on January 08, 2015, 09:32:30 PM

Ah ok. News sites were claiming it will be on the e-shop, and that just raised some red flags for me. I look forward to seeing your video and hopefully it clarifies some things.

How about the character choice teirs? I just want my questions answered before I decide to go for it to get Tewi in the game (posted them on here and the indiegogo comments)

EDIT: Also, I pla to buy glasswing this weekend. It looks really good! You really made that in a month?! It took me 2 months to make touhou pong, and couldn't get everything I wanted in it.

Oh that's you?

We have no list of characters. A common comment I keep reading is "Can't wait to see Marisa" but she is in fact not even conceptualized to even be a playable character anymore than.... say Wriggler or even Rinno.

I have not even thought about what to do with Yuuka, at the moment the only thing on my mind is Tenshi.

Alcoraiden · « **Reply #24 on:** January 08, 2015, 10:26:12 PM »

I'm so pleased Yuuka is finally in a fighter. You get all the hat tips for this one.

Oh huh, I'm (pleasantly? I like Marisa but she's a MC and thus in everything. I dunno) surprised that Marisa wasn't an immediate "of course." Huh.

TresserT · « **Reply #25 on:** January 08, 2015, 10:35:01 PM »

Quote from: Saijee on January 08, 2015, 10:17:35 PM

Oh that's you?

We have no list of characters. A common comment I keep reading is "Can't wait to see Marisa" but she is in fact not even conceptualized to even be a playable character anymore than.... say Wriggler or even Rinno.

I have not even thought about what to do with Yuuka, at the moment the only thing on my mind is Tenshi.

So, just out of curiosity, by that do you mean "Marisa probably won't be in it" or do you mean "Everyone has an equal shot here, be them a major or minor character"? Not to be critical or anything, I'm just wondering.

zferolie · « **Reply #26 on:** January 08, 2015, 10:41:48 PM »

Quote from: Saijee on January 08, 2015, 10:17:35 PM

Oh that's you?

We have no list of characters. A common comment I keep reading is "Can't wait to see Marisa" but she is in fact not even conceptualized to even be a playable character anymore than.... say Wriggler or even Rinno.

I have not even thought about what to do with Yuuka, at the moment the only thing on my mind is Tenshi.

yeah thats me.

Very interesting. I just assumed Marisa would be in because she is everywhere. So anyone has an equal chance huh?

So if one were to buy a character, is all we are getting is them in the game, or do we have any control over some moves, playstyle, or stuff like that?

Saijee · « **Reply #27 on:** January 08, 2015, 10:44:32 PM »

Yea equal chance.

zferolie · « **Reply #28 on:** January 08, 2015, 11:04:59 PM »

Quote from: Saijee on January 08, 2015, 10:44:32 PM

Yea equal chance.

Thats pretty cool idea. Still curious on if someone buys a character in if they get to design any parts of that character, or is it just to secure a guy in. If you are waiting to answer that un your video thats cool

I'll probably be at least updating to 150 to get possibly Hakurei Miko skin for Reimu. I doubt she has a chance or is eligable to be playable anyway.

Alcoraiden · « **Reply #29 on:** January 08, 2015, 11:11:40 PM »

Quote from: zferolie on January 08, 2015, 11:04:59 PM

Thats pretty cool idea. Still curious on if someone buys a character in if they get to design any parts of that character, or is it just to secure a guy in. If you are waiting to answer that un your video thats cool

I'll probably be at least updating to 150 to get possibly Hakurei Miko skin for Reimu. I doubt she has a chance or is eligable to be playable anyway.

You've asked this question like 10 times between the Indiegogo and here. The lack of answer seems both deliberate and reasonable because it's possible they haven't figured it out yet. Balance is hard, and I wouldn't be surprised if player input was limited here just because, well, balance is hard.