Miscellaneous Questions Thread 3 - Ask Question, Receive Answer

[Starxsword]

- Can normal youkai (not spiritual type like ghost) e.g Tengu, Kappa and etc. be kill by physical means (like beheading someone with a weapon...) "in Gensokyo"?
- If yes, what do you think about youkai still living in the outside world?

Presumably, no. It is probably possible, but you need some extreme forms of physical attacks.

I understand basically when people stop believe in there existence they weaken and then eventual disappear but is that all.
What if a human of the outside world attack a youkai (human in appearance) still living in that world using physical means (e.g guns or knife...)?

The physical attack probably would do little, if assuming that is a youkai.
If assuming that youkai is now a human, well, it will kill them.

Did Sakuya restore the broken cup to it's original state or what and if so how did she do it?
That cup was already broken, before her arrival in the store.

Restore the broken cup? I thought it was pretty clear that she swapped the broken cup with one that isn't broken. I assume you are referring to Curiousities of Lotus Asia.

[Biakmon]

Restore the broken cup? I thought it was pretty clear that she swapped the broken cup with one that isn't broken. I assume you are referring to Curiousities of Lotus Asia.

Thanks for the clarification, I was not sure whether she exchange it with another one or not.

[Fonzi]

Another question I'd like clarified. How long has the Youkai Mountain been in Gensokyo? According the wiki's timeline, the comparison of Mt.Fuji and Yatsugatake and the subsequent destruction of the latter took place circa 200k - 250k years ago. The Great Hakurei Boundary is just 128 years old, its first recorded layer being placed some 500 years ago by Yukari in the so-called Youkai Expansion Project. It therefore comes as a logical assumption that the Youkai Mountain in Gensokyo is not older than 128 or 500 years. I wonder why Iwanaga-hime has let another goddess set up shrine on her mountain. Then again, seeing as how she executed no retribution against her jealous younger sister, I guess she's not the type who goes looking for trouble.

[Imosa]

I've noticed the reoccurrence of this symbol too (I can't remember where off the top of my head).

[the symbol is] also the background of ESoD difficulty selection screen.

I don't see how this supports your theory.
I'd only think that if the symbol was the "symbol of spell card rules" it would appear even more so I"m not convinced. Has it appeared in more recent games?
EDIT
Yeah, in PCB, doesn't this symbol appear around Yukari during her entire battle? Also, around the character when you focus (I think you got that one).

DDC has plenty of seasonal symbols.

Falling maple leaves can be seen in several occasions during the story, from in-universe to "now loading" and music room.

The entire Stage 3 is a callback to IN; the full moon indicates that DDC, just as IN, took place during the harvest moon festival (the full moon of middle autumn).

Kagerou's dress is based on Hanafuda's "Pampas Grass and the Full Moon" card, an autumn card.

You talk about Stage 3 and how its a call back to IN, but isn't every stage so far a call back to a previous game? Do those all have residual seasonal symbols too?
How does the full moon indicate that it's during the harvest moon festival, aren't there plenty of full moons during the year?

[Clarste]

Can someone explain (summaries) what happen in chapter 5 of CoLA at the end?

Did Sakuya restore the broken cup to it's original state or what and if so how did she do it?
That cup was already broken, before her arrival in the store.

She swapped it with another cup hidden in a box somewhere. So she she froze time and then rummaged around the store to find a matching cup that wasn't broken. Nothing but sleight of hand.

[Imosa]

She swapped it with another cup hidden in a box somewhere. So she she froze time and then rummaged around the store to find a matching cup that wasn't broken. Nothing but sleight of hand.

... and fucking time magic. It confused me because she didn't just look around the store herself to begin with.

[Clarste]

Deceitless sleight of hand. In regards to her having looked around earlier, the impression I got was that she intentionally set up this little trick ahead of time. I don't think she's quite so stupid as to seriously believe that Remilia was asking for a broken cup. She was just playing a little prank.

[Imosa]

Deceitless sleight of hand (what's the point of that?). In regards to her having looked around earlier, the impression I got was that she intentionally set up this little trick ahead of time. I don't think she's quite so stupid as to seriously believe that Remilia was asking for a broken cup. She was just playing a little prank.

Seems like an awful lot of work but that may be the right answer. Personally I like the idea of a Dr. Manhattan-ish mind set but I see why that can't happen.

[ToyoRai]

If any one has noticed (which I ma sure you have), Utsuho's spellcard background has a nuclear symbol with three images in it. The first one is a galaxy, the second one is a cat and the third one is... something. What is it, metal? And why would it be in there?

[Sagus]

If any one has noticed (which I ma sure you have), Utsuho's spellcard background has a nuclear symbol with three images in it. The first one is a galaxy, the second one is a cat and the third one is... something. What is it, metal? And why would it be in there?

I got really curious so I took the symbol's sprite, removed everything but the weird part, and used it on google's image search. I think I found the same image that ZUN used.

It seems like it's a computer chip, but I can't tell what the possible connection between it and Utsuho is, since all the pages that turned up are in japanese. As far as google translate could tell me, it has something to do with supercomputers.

This is the search that I made, by the way.

EDIT: Here, look at them side by side:

[Drake]

Pretty sure it's a reference to Kanako.

[Fonzi]

Pretty sure it's a reference to Kanako.

Or maybe you're just overthinking it. It might as well be reference to the development of an atomic bomb. The cat could be a reference to Orin and the Galaxy to Okuu herself (sky) and the inner side of her cape. Or maybe ZUN just put in some random images and we're seeing references when there might not be any.

And seems my last question about Youkai Mountain was unanswered/unnoticed.

[Imosa]

Or maybe you're just overthinking it.

Saying that we are over-thinking something is a non-starter. We tend to assume that ZUN is not just doing things at random.

For reference here is Fonzi's question.
While we are on the subject of Youkai Mountain I had a question too. PMiSS said that Youkai Mountain might be hollow and contain a society of all manner of Youkai. Has this idea ever been explored more? I know it's not talking about Old Hell, because while the bounds of a mountain may be fuzzy, I don't think it extends out of Gensokyo.

[Sagus]

Or maybe you're just overthinking it. It might as well be reference to the development of an atomic bomb.

Maybe it's a reference to technology in general.

The cat could be a reference to Orin0

Could also, as the wiki says, be a reference to the irradiated wild cats that live in Prypat, the city where Chernobyl workers lived. Since Okuu's foot encasing is a reference to Chernobyl's "elephant foot", it's possible.

While we are on the subject of Youkai Mountain I had a question too. PMiSS said that Youkai Mountain might be hollow and contain a society of all manner of Youkai. Has this idea ever been explored more? I know it's not talking about Old Hell, because while the bounds of a mountain may be fuzzy, I don't think it extends out of Gensokyo.

It's probably just rumors that go around in the human village. Seeing as how those don't define youkai anymore (in Gensokyo, I mean), it's unlikely they're true; kappa were shown to be terrible at working together on large projects in WaHH, so I don't think they'd be able to build something like that. And the tengu live on the mountain, not inside it. Other youkai are mostly solitary, so unless there's another communitary species in there, I'd consider the whole thing to just be an overblown rumor.

[cuc]

I know of two references to the fabled Youkai Mountain industrial zone.

MoF prologue: "sound of distant of machines... perhaps the tengu's factories have awoken".

Soku vs. dialog, Sakuya wins Aya: "Where do you do that movable type printing? That mountain isn't that big anyway."

> The chip image

When it comes to imagery used in Touhou games, there IS a risk of overthinking things. Every piece of art ZUN and his friends did not create is a stock image pulled from some image library. So is this chip image. I believe it's here to represent "technology", that's all.

I don't see how this supports your theory.
I'd only think that if the symbol was the "symbol of spell card rules" it would appear even more so I"m not convinced. Has it appeared in more recent games?

That's just a pet theory, not a serious opinion. It hasn't been used in other places since MoF.

It's probably meant to be crosshairs.

You talk about Stage 3 and how its a call back to IN, but isn't every stage so far a call back to a previous game? Do those all have residual seasonal symbols too?

In terms of DDC's own season, the maple leaves in interface and throughout the stages should be able to establish the season as autumn.

However, you are right about the non-autumn seasonal symbols in Stage 1 and 2. The lotus is a symbol of summer, and the willow is a symbol of spring. So, Stage 3 in itself is not evidence for the game to be set in autumn, since the stages seem to be partially themed around the seasons. (Stage 1 is definitely referencing EoSD, but I'm not certain Stage 2 is about PCB.)

How does the full moon indicate that it's during the harvest moon festival, aren't there plenty of full moons during the year?

In East Asian culture, the moon is a symbol of autumn. The harvest moon festival, and the viewing of harvest moon, is attached extremely important cultural values. There are 12 full moons a year, but this one is the one that matters.

Previously I used the term "middle autumn" (the festival's Chinese name), but the festival generally falls in September, early autumn. IN is established as taking place in early autumn. Since the lotuses are still in bloom, and the willow leaves are still green, so is DDC.

[Biakmon]

Can anyone tell me what the english name of those 2 touhou doujinshi, please?

- Kokuu no Utsuho dai Ichi wa Itsuwari no Taiyou
- Kokuu no Utsuho dai san wa Aibetsuriku

Also can someone also explain to me more clearly how does Flandre power exactly works? (The one that she use to destroy a meteorite like in touhou BAiJR)
Did Suika Ibuki really blow up a part of the Moon?

[ToyoRai]

Also can someone also explain to me more clearly how does Flandre power exactly works? (The one that she use to destroy a meteorite like in touhou BAiJR)

The way her power works is first she finds the points on the objects which have the most tension built into it (referenced as "eyes) and pouring her power into them. Then she can move the "eyes" into her hand and crush the "eyes" by clenching her fist, destoying the object.

On Suika, she didn't actually shatter the Moon, as the Moon people in Gensokyo see int he sky is actually the reflection of the real Moon. What she did was she shattered the heaven to make it look like she broke the moon.

[TresserT]

Okay, so in Touhou we have Makai, Former Hell, Hell of Blazing Fires (located within formal Hell), and Hokkai (inside of Makai). So I have two questions. Are any of these the current and actual Hell? And do we know why they stopped using the old one?

Also, I know they have a reincarnation thing going on, but then why did they need a Hell in the first place? Gragh!

[Sagus]

New Hell has nothing to do with Makai (a realm created by Shinki that has nothing to do with the afterlife, at least during the PC-98 era; unknown if this info is still valid for the Windows era, but nothing revealed thus far contradicts it) or the Old Hell. We have yet to see New Hell in any of the games, unless you count the Hell route in HRtP as taking place in New Hell. Since it's the very first game in the series, and it lacks any meaningful dialogue whatsoever, there's no way to know for sure if that's the case.

Old Hell was going through financial issues (or overpopulation problems, or both, IIRC), so they had to transfer Hell to a new location.

I'm not sure what you mean by your third question. Plenty of religions that believe in a Hell also have reincarnation, including some branches of christianity. Hell punishes sinners, or, better, as Eiki says, exists to scare people into not sinning in the first place.

I remember reading somewhere that people that fall into Hell or are thrown from a shinigami's boat are permanently removed from the circle of reincarnation, but since I can't find where I read that, I must have dreamed it up or something.

[TresserT]

Oh, okay. With all the demons and Lucifer motif Shinki has going on, I guess I'd just assumed Makai was supposed to be a form of Hell.

And as for my other question, I could have sworn that someone had said something along the lines of "The Yama's love you enough that they'll keep reincarnating you until you get it right", in which case there would be no need for a Hell. But as you said, if it can't be found I must have dreamed it up. Anyways, thank you.

[cuc]

IIRC the hell functions like this in canon: only extremely evil souls are condemned to hell. They can leave hell if they repent, but the majority of them does not. They ended up converting into heavy metals (WaHH Vol 1).

[Fonzi]

I've seen someone mention that Toyosatomimi no Miko, who is based on Prince Shotoku, was never considered male in Touhou before she went to "sleep". I was just wondering... what proof is there that confirms this?

[CyberAngel]

Her TD profile, which talks about her backstory, refers to her as female. The only time Prince Shotoku is mentioned as male is

Spoiler:

a textbook in Sanae's ending

.

[Fonzi]

Eh... Not really convincing enough. For one, I'm not sure whether Japanese even differentiate gender when they talk about someone. Whether they have any "he" and "she". Might as well, be the translators of the profile trying to give her one definite gender and since Miko is a girl in Touhou, so they referred to her as "she" in all of her profile.
Then there's the case of Akyuu, whose prevoius incarnations are strongly implied to have been both male and female. So why couldn't the prince genderswap at some point?

[cuc]

The Japanese language prefers to omit the subjects of a sentence as much as possible, and use pronouns as little as possible. However Miko's profile specifically used the female third person pronoun 彼女 "kanojo". In other words, ZUN could have avoided mentioning Miko's gender, but he chose to always refer to Miko as "she".

I don't consider this to be the definite evidence that Miko was always a woman, but it is a meaningful choice on the writer's part.

[Sagus]

Absolutely no one says anything regarding Miko once having being a man. There is no mention of gender-swapping occurring anywhere in canon. You'd think that something like that would at least have a comment on her profile, yet it's never mentioned. Kanako already existed back when Miko was born and never says anything, Akyuu doesn't mention anything about it in Miko's SoPM profile. The only one that ever notes the discrepancy is Sanae, and she's from the outside world, where Shoutoku is not even considered to have been real, so one shouldn't take the fact that her school textbook (which even under other circumstances would be very unreliable) says that Miko was male as good evidence.

Above all, I just don't see any in-story reason for why Shoutoku would change his gender, if he was once a man.  It just... doesn't make any sense. It wouldn't be to hide who she is since she boasts about it all the time, and unless Shoutoku was secretly transexual, I have absolutely no clue why a nobleman from ancient Japan would want to become a woman.

I'd think that the people saying that "Miko was once a male" is canon are the ones that need to provide some solid evidence for it, not the other way around. Because nothing really points towards it other than "real world Shoutoku was a man", and we all know Zun isn't one to strictly adhere to what mythology says (the basis for the four devas weren't women either, for example)

Then there's the case of Akyuu, whose prevoius incarnations are strongly implied to have been both male and female.

Wait, where is this implied? Wait, nevermind, found it.

[ToyoRai]

Only thing what references Miko as he in some form would be Futo referencing her as "Crown Prince" during Youmu's story. However, I am not really going to buy that, as I am reading from wiki translation (so I am certain I can be wrong) and all the other routes has her calling Miko "Crown Princess"(again, wiki translation, so don't rage on me even if you are going to tell how it really is)

[Fonzi]

Just because it isn't mentioned anywhere doesn't mean it cannot be that way. Was the fact that Eirin drank the Hourai Elixir mentioned in any of her profiles? No. Besides, waving SoPM around as an evidence that Akyuu doesn't mention anything about the matter is just as doubtful. I mean, it's Akyuu...

I'd think that the people saying that "Miko was once a male" is canon are the ones that need to provide some solid evidence for it, not the other way around.

Oh, really? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prince_Sh%C5%8Dtoku His face is on the 10 000 yen note. Not just in some unnamed textbook from Outside world that's in Sanae's possesion.
And while I am well aware that the girls like Kasen, Suika and Yuugi are based off on male legendary figures, Prince Shotoku cannot be absolutely dismissed as a figure of legends and not a historical person. The evidence provided is not enough to dismiss a theory completely, just as there isn't enough evidence to support it.

[CyberAngel]

Prince Shotoku cannot be absolutely dismissed as a figure of legends and not a historical person.

That's exactly what happened in Touhou canon. Otherwise she wouldn't be in Gensokyo. And that 10,000 yen bill was in Sanae's ending as well, so nothing new here.

[Fonzi]

Your only evidence that Miko was a woman all the time is the lack of evidence to the contrary, so forgive me for doubting your theory, because it is a theory and nothing more. You stating that it is canon without anythng more to prove it is what's preventing me from shutting up.
I think it's just pitting one theory against another and that Miko's canonical gender in the past is questionable at best. Unless ZUN says otherwise, we are free to believe what we want if its nature is not explained well enough in canon.