Question: If I lose a fight, will my special person also die? What if they're in the game?Why did you feel the need to say this in public rather than, y'know, PMing the GM? Softclaiming on the game's first post is sort of ridiculous.
Who says I'm claiming? I think it might have been cool if Serp died too if UK lost a fight or maybe I die when you lose one.I fail to see how that's even remotely relevant if it isn't a claim. 'Hey gaiz, wouldn't it be cool if I was a lover?' :|
I fail
Question: If I lose a fight, will my special person also die? What if they're in the game?
I'm interested in seeing your strategy play out. I wonder if the scenario you presented earlier, "my special person" has anything to do with this? Making sure as many die as soon as possible seems like a surefire strategy to narrow down the playing field, after all.
:D
If I were scum and you had gathered that from my single post, I would commend your brilliance.
As it stands I don't think that was your motive.
Also, something bothers me about Bard's reaction rereading it. He feels a little nervous. But that's also hard to read at this stage of the game...I still don't like it.
Reaction to what? :) While we're still in "sip a cup of tea and see how things go" phase, it's best to iron out all the uncertainties you feel about the two "to be" challenged people, correct?
I spit in your tea!
:V
Reaction to what? :) While we're still in "sip a cup of tea and see how things go" phase, it's best to iron out all the uncertainties you feel about the two "to be" challenged people, correct?
Not necessarily. And to be honest, it's just the feeling I got from your post. It felt like "Shit, he's right...but if I can get him to back off I can wait for someone to play badly"
The only thing that leaves me nervous is Roukanken's meta-play on alleged scum actions, making statements as "scum would avoid scum vs scum" and "mafia are looking for ways to throw themselves into fights without looking suspicious".
The only thing that leaves me nervous is Roukanken's meta-play on alleged scum actions, making statements as "scum would avoid scum vs scum" and "mafia are looking for ways to throw themselves into fights without looking suspicious".
So yeah. I think Bardiche is scum just because and even if he was town we've denied scum from scoring once.
I will state one thing. I actually think making this go FASTER is pro town given MotK's general meta. It hadn't really occured to me before, but when we drag the day out to it's maximum limit, we tend to lynch someone who was playing badly rather than lynching scum. And while scum can play badly, we don't have a great track record.
Except the lynch mechanism for this game is vastly different from the normal lynch. A challenge issued 4 hours into the day is no different from a challenge issued 23 hours into the day, aside from the fact that the second one gives us 19 extra hours to plan.
Don't forget, it only takes one person to get a duel going. Anyone that's on before the challenge deadline could challenge anyone else and suddenly we'd have our 48 hour voting period just fine.
words
Sirrah, might I point out I clearly stated where I stood on the described events? Regulating the duels just does not sit with me as a bright idea, given the abyssmal chance of success and the complications I suspect it will bring along.
There is still a lot of unnecessary pro-town fluff in that post, like telling town to make sure they try to win their duels. What's the point of pointing that out?
Both answers were unimpressive. Pesco's more so, given he more or less ignored the point entirely. I also don't like the "don't think just act" attitude that seems to be oozing from his posts (andUK's to alesser extent, for all that she's relevant right now)
I'd like to hear Rou's thoughts on Bard's posts.Well,
Always remember, though: if you're town, you always want to win your duels.I got a weird vibe from this, I'll admit. Besides that it feels slightly condescending, it seems to be trying to goad Town into attacking too early.
The only thing that leaves me nervous is Roukanken's meta-play on alleged scum actions, making statements as "scum would avoid scum vs scum" and "mafia are looking for ways to throw themselves into fights without looking suspicious".
The possibility of staging a scum vs scum duel seems slim at best.Hypocrisy much?
Hypocrisy much?
I'm not sure how much of Bardiche's 'Oh dear, this is all very troublesome' is just RPing and how much of it is trying to get written off as a helpful Townie.
Meanwhile, his comments along the lines of 'You're about to prove yourself sorely wrong' and 'After all, I'm town, so my victory will always be in town's best interest' really rub me the wrong way. You realise comments like that pretty much bleed WIFOM, right?
I'm edging towards voting Bard for this showdown, but really I'm just irritated we ended up getting a showdown so freaking quickly. I mean seriously, I don't know if half the players have even posted yet.
It does look like a soft claim, to be sure, Pesco.
Either way, I agree with those people who prefer caution over headlong rushing into the heat of the battle. There are a number of strategies scum can employ to lead town astray.
However, attempting to reason as to scum's actions presents such a wide web of possibilities, narrowing it down to just a single one seems difficult if not foolish.
When given the option of staging the duels and regulating it, I can't find myself in agreement. That would be giving town an unnecessary handicap: after all, once that is over and done with, we must be more diligent in catching scum, because there is a good possibility they have already accrued some victories. The possibility of staging a scum vs scum duel seems slim at best.
No, I think it would be best everyone use their own judgment in issueing duel invitations. Always remember, though: if you're town, you always want to win your duels.
Nice bit of egging on paranoia.
Oh, Rou. Would you please stop rolefishing on Pesco? So what if he soft claimed? we do not need to knowYou're assuming that this isn't, say, a fakeclaim? >_>
Moreover, you suggested that scum would avoid this, which isn't necessarily true, but the argument for that leads into WIFOM.My point was for my scenario - i.e. let a challenge go as normal then have the winner be killed the next day - scum DEFINITELY don't want to challenge each other, because they lose two members and gain nothing.
Okay. Please suggest a viable course of action to undertake here other than, "Hey, you know what? You're wrong, I'm town.""Hey, you know what? You're lying, you're scum." Attack, don't defend.
Wait a moment.As much as I'd like to, Pesco's meta is disgusting in that he does this sort of stupid suicidal useless crap as Town. T_T
Roukanken, shouldn't your vote be on me if you're so displeased with how quick we got into a showdown? Shouldn't you be against the one that caused this?
You're assuming that this isn't, say, a fakeclaim? >_>
Actually, you know what, fuck it. Please, tell me what you think Pesco's role is, and why fakeclaiming it would give him ANY advantage?I was suspecting some sort of scum bomb - when defeated in a challenge, takes the opponent down as well to score one point before death. Listing himself as a lover would make him a likely target for a challenge, since removing two townies from the equation makes things even easier for Town.
Probability-wise, scum team has to has someone who plays on MotK. They'd know quite well that Rou's paranoia weakness is easy to exploit. You agree with him, so tell us why and what does it prove instead of just nodding.
My point was for my scenario - i.e. let a challenge go as normal then have the winner be killed the next day - scum DEFINITELY don't want to challenge each other, because they lose two members and gain nothing.
If we left them to their own devices, scum/scum is possible, but in the example I was intending to set up it's completely pointless and thus I expected it to be avoided if at all possible.
"Hey, you know what? You're lying, you're scum." Attack, don't defend.
Out of interest, Bardiche, did you watch the series? Something a little more lighthearted out of curiosity while I ignore the headache this game is already giving me. And maybe some wikipedia reading to figure out what the hell Pesco's talking about.
So now your argument is "Bard must know of Rou's weakness". Riiiight.
I agree with him because it does look like that. What other reason is there to ask such a thing?
WIFOM.You realise that if scum DID accept a scum/scum battle in those circumstances it'd be a huge bonus for us, right? I discarded it because it's idealistic, best-case-scenario thinking that is a million to one from ever happening because two scum offering themselves up to be lynched for NO REASON isn't worth it. That is why the survivor of the challenge dies Day 2.
Attack him on what? He just said he voted me because First Blood is Badass.Then say that. Say he's being overimpulsive or something. Don't say 'he's wrong'.
Go visit the Wizard of Oz, Strawman. You agree with him, so what does it prove if you think I was softclaiming?
I was suspecting some sort of scum bomb - when defeated in a challenge, takes the opponent down as well to score one point before death. Listing himself as a lover would make him a likely target for a challenge, since removing two townies from the equation makes things even easier for Town.
Killing 2 townies means there's 2 less targets for scum to fight. If they don't have enough scum vs town matches, they lose. The game setup favours town.
How is losing two townies GOOD FOR TOWN? Further, if he's a scum bomb, wouldn't he just do what he did and not even bother with the fake claim? Honestly, this logic does not work.1. Scum needs to beat Town in challenges to win. If we reduce the field to less than 5 Townies, Scum cannot win.
FPMH is where I look at a player's early post and declare them scum from that alone.
Skepticism confirmed, then. Logic >>> mindhax.
Hiya. I generally agree with Kefit's analysis here, but his vote for Pesco at the end is a bit confusing - you realize we're voting for who we want to WIN the duel here, right? Pesco's the one throwing out the quick challenge, which given the rules I do indeed think is pro-scum enough to want to see him lose it.
You'd be completely and utterly surprised. There is a reason 'It is pesco' actually justifies some MOTK members.
This is also extremely abusable in situations where he just happens to be scum. Making assumptions is dangerous. Sorry, absolutely not buying that making guesses completely at random can be any kind of reliable barometer.
Pesco looks completely suicidal. Bardiche, however, seems to be putting up a facade of 'tactics are key'. They're the complete opposite, good for trying to think up 'Which is scummier, tactics or jumping into things?'.
Frankly, I'm going to have to go with tactics. More chance to justify their challenge. Scum absolutely NEED to win their duels, but they also need to be the ones -starting- the duel.
Leaving town to pick the matches isn't a good idea for scum, but just rushing INTO the duel is likely to get you lynched.
Therefore, I'm lead to think most scum would want to build some sort of case, shoddy or not, before starting a challenge.
Given that this is a shoddy case over all
However, I see exactly where he is coming from with that post. 'What town wants to do the most is win their duels'. Yes. It is also exactly what scum needs to do. Town doesn't need to lynch all scum to win, but scum needs to lynch town. Winning duels is a scum priority, not a town one, I'm not about to say all townies should die- But can you mention why you felt the need to tell us that winning duels is a town priority, Bardiche?
I want to hear the man address my concerns.
1. Scum needs to beat Town in challenges to win. If we reduce the field to less than 5 Townies, Scum cannot win.
2. Why not do both?
That said, having done some reading I'm pretty sure I understand what Pesco was talking about, and I fucked up. Hard. Yes, I'm overly paranoid and I should have paid attention to the background material. >_>
Then why the hell are you making an assumption there?
It's statistics.
Hmm? I think I missed this. I honestly glazed over his D1 Walls o' text...perhaps I should reread them today?
The only thing that leaves me nervous is Roukanken's meta-play on alleged scum actions, making statements as "scum would avoid scum vs scum" and "mafia are looking for ways to throw themselves into fights without looking suspicious".
if the day drags on, knowing MotK, we'll force two bad players to challenge each other and get less information than we would otherwise.
Focusing so much on you would be pointless.
I think everyone needs to post their progressive thoughts on you and pesco as the day goes on, but cases should still go around so we can figure out what we are doing tomorrow.
But I think thought was indeed involved. It just might not be 'satisfactory thought'.In response to Kilgamayan's "I don't like this 'don't think just act' attitude".
Please, tell me what you think Pesco's role is, and why fakeclaiming it would give him ANY advantage?
I see no acknowledgements of Kitten that the declared action was followed up on. "Maybe I should read Day1 Wall of Texts". Pardon? It's still Day 1! I submit this as an admission of "I didn't even read others' posts if they were too long for my tastes". I don't find Roukanken's earlier posts to be sizable at all.
Advocating that "rushing headlong" = "good", where at the same time saying it's important to gather a lot of information. Deferring alignment from someone's words is the very basis of regular Mafia: discarding that in favour of doing things ASAP is contrary to the very way I play the game, so I can't agree with this piece of thought.
You were tunnel-visioned into two options before the Day really began and everyone'd posted even once. I fail to see how you can still feel that "two good options" were presented at the time Pesco declared his choice of target. I wouldn't even cede that "one good and one bad option" was present.
At the time this was said, Pesco had issued his challenge, and Kitten acknowledged seeing this in the previous post. So... why is focusing on one of the two targets for the day's death "pointless"? Explain yourself.
There's a saying, "To lead, a man must first move". Kitten here declares a preferred course of action, and does not follow the homebrew advice at all!
Moreover, rather than "state thoughts on both", he just goes into defending Pesco:
And... looking over the latest posts, Kitten continues the passive stance of declaring "Everyone should do this" and proceed to thumb-twiddle on.
Says that we don't need to know if Pesco softclaimed etc, follows up with:
Lies, damned lies and statistics. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Ptitle5kgfz6fn1lso) :V
Let's fight then. The win conditions favour town greatly and scum need to take big risks to get their quota.
I think Bardiche is scum just because and even if he was town we've denied scum from scoring once.
And then I forget the crazy vote mechanics and do things completely in reverse. Sigh. Damned brain melting post-work, damned lack of editing.
##Unvote: Pesco
##Vote: Bardiche
There. I'll stick around a while for responses but new game rules are messing with my head augh.
There are still 6 hours left in the day my time. And yes, I skimmed. I tend to skim when you post more than two paragraphs about one statement. Sorry.
There's a balance to be struck. We erred on the wrong side of the balance but with the 48 hours we have for your challenge, it's less critical.
Huh?
Um...because focusing on JUST you two would be...retarded? One of you is going to die. We need to look at other players while this battle goes on so we can set up tomorrow.
Well, actually, she has. Several times. She thinks you are a bit scummy for how you handled Pesco's declaration, and she obviously thinks Pesco is acting reasonably townish for him.
Should do what?
Um...you really don't have a case on me. I see a lot of misrepresentation here. Good try though ^-^.
I'm not attacking you on the skimming; I'm attacking you on "Oh hey maybe I should actually even read posts!" Mind, at that point you already seem quite comfortable with Pesco's declaration to duel me.
Pesco declared he was going to duel me in two hours. You said you were okay with that. What kind of statement IS "we erred on the wrong side of the balance" with respect to that?
Quite frankly, I find this rather fishy. How is it less critical now that there are 48 hours in which you can no longer accuse someone freely, but only two people? Face it, you've lost the initiative and, even if someone acts scummy now, you have to wait until this is over to do anything with regards to them. You lost the first move based on someone's rash behaviour and you still want to say that that is "less critical"?
I'm saying you have two bad choices now. Pesco, who can only be blamed for jumping the gun and being generally unhelpful, and me, who was initially blamed at the time for a single opening post and who I know to be town.
I'll cede that perhaps my definition of "focus" differs. "To focus" doesn't mean "disregard everyone else", but to make it your main priority to decide between your given two targets and look at everyone else a-glance, making sure to raise concerns and issues at the most opportune moment. HINT: After this is over would be an opportune time to voice suspicions of others.
You talkin' about yourself in the third person? Anyway, you think I'm scummy based on me saying, "Whoah there buddy calm down, isn't it better to wait first and let everyone speak?" in response to Pesco's "LET'S NARROW DOWN TO TWO VOTE OPTIONS BASED ON A FIRST POST"? Um, wow.
You're forgetting what you proposed everyone to do? Voice thoughts on Pesco and me individually while looking at other cases. You haven't voiced any thoughts on Pesco at all, nor on me after it. You just voted Pesco to survive with no explanation backing it at all. I'm fairly comfortable with seeing you die on the next opportunity at this moment.
No, I do have a case on you. It's miles better than Pesco on me. You're supporting him with faulty-to-non-existant reasoning, pretending to be some voice of reason with suggestions on how everyone should act while throwing all that to the wind yourself.
I'm aware what I'm saying completely overturns what is scummy and what is not the moment I say it. Why are you bringing this up?
The fact you're trying to make that post out to be some huge plan to help scum get victories is hugely ironic.
If I must say it, it is one thing that DOES seem rather scummy. It is also something neccesital, much like defending yourself. Consider it very much like another brand of defense.
I don't see how not instantly being convinced by a shoddy case is particularly hypocritical.
I don't like your reason for your priority claim. I'm trying to convince myself it makes sense, but I just outright can't. It probably has to do with how it was said.
And please remember to ##Unvote.
What in the world have you guys done to this poor game. It's like you've turned this into a bizarre court battle where everyone can have the chance to scramble and uncover meaningless procedural errors in the misplaced hopes of mustering a vain appeal. I get enough of that crap at school.
Misrep.
retrospective
With posts like that I'm thinking you're a great choice. Which is really hilarious since I was saying the exact same things as town last game. My excuse was that I was trying to irritate Kerigis, who pointed out I was subtly trying to reinforce I'm town. What's yours?
Bullshit.
Just...bullshit. You haven't been reading my posts at all. Actually, you have. And that's what makes this even MORE terrible. I've posted thoughts on both of you. Where the hell do you even get this?
Really? I am? Prove it. Everything you've cited has been a miserable pile of contradiction after contradiction.
You accuse me of one thing and then you accuse me of the opposite.
I really don't understand what you are attempting to do here besides piss me off.
It's like you've turned this into a bizarre court battle where everyone can have the chance to scramble and uncover meaningless procedural errors in the misplaced hopes of mustering a vain appeal.
You threatened to duel Pesco if he didn't duel me and said that it seemed like an amusing thing to you. How am I misrepresenting you when I say you were comfortable with Pesco's declaration of duelling me?
Yep, everyone I've quoted was a miserable pile of contradiction after contradiction, and I am very happy you acknowledge it. Your support of Pesco shouldn't need my proof, it's evident in the vote record and your actions with regards to him.
I've accused you of acting suspicious and I've accused you of being scum so far. I feel that those two are close enough not to be considered opposites.
So, care to tell me how you usually catch scum here beyond examining the posts and pointing out the things you feel need to be scrutinised?
Oh sweet jesus what the hell is this
We're less that 24 hours into Day 1 and already we're getting WoTs all over the place
Pesco is terrible for doing nothing useful, Bardiche gets credit for moving onto UK but HOLY CRAP.
Honestly this day has been a trainwreck. We get a challenge 4 hours in, no-one has any useful information to work from as a result, we're getting overwhelmed by WoTs and best of all 4 people haven't even posted yet - namely, Alice, Jam, Alex and K4U.
In short - What the hell?
In short - What the hell?
Still want to hear how Siralex would break the setup he made. That's useful info for the town he's holding back.Okay this is also bull. You assume first of all that Carth would keep the setup the same knowing that Alex was playing, and secondly that he would allow it to be used at all if it was broken. Asking him this ahead of useful hunting is horrible.
And Alex has posted, actually.Oh whoops, he's Ranmilia. My bad. :S
At least he's getting off his ass and doing something.
But what if that something is unproductive and the cause of most of these WoTs?
Either way, how does Pesco's meta feel...ok, what does OTT mean?
But what if that something is unproductive and the cause of most of these WoTs?Personally I feel this post (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=5016.msg251418#msg251418) was perfectly reasonable. You responded by picking at every little point and minor inconsistency in the attack. If anything, Bardiche is at fault for actually responding to your constant nit-picking.
Either way, how does Pesco's meta feel...ok, what does OTT mean?As Chaore said, it's Over The Top. Town!Pesco may be reckless normally, but he wouldn't reduce the game to two suspects in 4 hours. Furthermore he didn't just sit back on his Chaore case in RKS - he added to it, found further slipups in his play. He didn't just say 'I'm lynching him because, now get the hell on with it'.
Post fewer walls plz kthx!
my new official Pita-Ten art book <3 <3 <3 <3 <3
Personally I feel this post was perfectly reasonable. You responded by picking at every little point and minor inconsistency in the attack. If anything, Bardiche is at fault for actually responding to your constant nit-picking.
Elaborate? How is flat out inaccuracy "reasonable"?You didn't read over the short posts properly, like he said.
You called on me for rolefishing Pesco then insisted I say what I thought he was.
You see no reason in looking at the people who are at risked of being lynched even when you told everyone else to do so because you're looking at what'll happen in the next day.
You insisted that going for a quick challenge is a good idea rather than LETTING PEOPLE TALK.
You didn't read over the short posts properly, like he said.
Tom, you're voting for who you want to live, remember?I am aware of this!
I just read over the signup OP and see Siralex being credited for the setup. Care to explain the optimal play for us all?
I'll restate what was looked over in favor of a poorly stated observation. Pesco is playing entirely suicidal here. Any reason why doesn't sit well with me. The fact it is being receptively taken so easily sits worse with me.
Guys, the game is broken. Confirm without a doubt a townie and have them steamroll ALL matches.
Early on circa page 2/3 the people theorycrafting said do whatever you think is right. I think issuing the quick challenge was the way. No RVS plodding just going straight into the necessary business. The only thing that matters to the combatants is what each other will flip. The rest of you should be identifying a town rep to break the game.Except that there is no way to confirm Town in this game. If there were, it'd be completely broken because that one player would just wipe everyone in showdowns.
You guys are too afraid of listening to instincts. Learn to use the rest of your senses other than just your eyes.Well I'm using my nose right now, and this post smells of utter crap.
On the other hand, I don't feel like he's played like he is particularly interested in winning the duel.
Bolding added for emphasis. Sure, that works in theory, but how do you plan to actually do it?
Moreover, you suggested that scum would avoid this, which isn't necessarily true, but the argument for that leads into WIFOM.It does not take a degree in Astrophysics to realise that Scum principally do not want to off themselves in a game wherein having large numbers of Scum alive is even more important and useful than normal.
As a result, I consider anyone that thinks that challenging people without discussing it and getting everyone's approval is more likely to be scum. So Pesco loses points right off the bat.Translation: Pesco's bad and there are things pointing to him being Scum and simultaneously I don't like the people voting for him oh Bard is kind of crappy as well and he's kind of overdefensive but he's improved about that so let's vote Bard.
Then he also says some things that makes me think he doesn't actually expect Bard to flip scum (that one post that says that even if he flips town it's all good comes to mind). I'm not liking some people voting for Pesco either (Chaos, EvilTom and UK stick out).
Bard himself wasn't real impressive at first, but I feel like he's gotten better. I didn't like his overly defensive nature, but he's gotten better about that since he started attacking UK. So yeah.
He seems pretty damn calm with the idea that he is getting lynched so far. Don't like it.Think for a bit. It is good for Scum in some situations to lose Townies due to Town vs. Town matches, but it is never good for Scum to lose one of their own due to either a Town vs. Scum *or* a Scum vs. Scum match. So one of 3 things are true: Pesco's Scum together with Bard and he's trying to trade his life off to "confirm" Bardiche, Pesco's Scum and Bardiche is just some random mark that he's hoping to off today as Scum's first kill, or he's Town. The first option can basically be discounted at this point as being implausible thanks to Roukan's suggestion in #33: A Scum-Pesco would be dead by the end of D2 even if Bard wound up being the D1 lynch. If both Pesco and Bard are Scum, this is strictly terrible for the Scumteam. Now, even if Pesco is Scum and Bard is Town, he'd want Bard to be the one lynched D1...not himself. Bard's posts so far aren't great, and he's said enough to unnerve me over them, and apparently several other people. So why attract horrid amounts of attention onto yourself and get yourself lynched at a time when you dying is strictly bad for Scum as opposed to a time when it comes with the tradeoff of a single Townie kill? It just doesn't make any damn sense at all. Overall, his playstyle strongly supports Town-Pesco, despite it being absolutely hateful.
I'm leaning towards also voting Bard though because Pesco deciding to just challenge right away and use the fact that his gut is usually right as reasoning seems to go with the idea that scum should try to challenge without drawing attention to themselves.This sentence contradicts itsself. Please restate/fix your reasoning or re-think your case, thanks.
Translation: Pesco's bad and there are things pointing to him being Scum and simultaneously I don't like the people voting for him oh Bard is kind of crappy as well and he's kind of overdefensive but he's improved about that so let's vote Bard.
Now, who in these 3 paragraphs do you not find scummy? This is surprisingly bad reasoning from you, but I'm willing to attribute this to the flu. For now. Want to see improvements soon.
@El Cid: either there exists a sane mod-confirmed cop in this setup combined with enough confidence that he did not hit a GF or frame-bait, in which case this game breaks, or there isn't, in which case there is precisely no way to *confirm* someone as Town. Yes, I do not think that word means what you think it means here - without some form of rolemagic saying LOL YASE THIS GUY IZ TOTLLI LEGIT!!1!11!1!1111111!!!!!!!1!11!!!1!!!1111oneone!11!111!!!111!!!111!!!11!!!!!!! you are always, at some level, left guessing as to your ""confirmed"" Town's alignment. And there are several people in this game who are capable of playing excellent Scum games and appearing perfectly Townie. Which is why this idea, while gamebreaking if it were possible, really is not possible. Even a Sane Cop isn't terrible - we have no reasoning as to why the person he hit couldn't have been a GF, or someone who got Lawyer'd at the right time in-game.
Use whatever method you want to find your confirmed and then town wins.LIKE WHAT? META READS DO NOT GIVE CONFIRMATION.
except why would you assume that Scum!Pesco_{thisgame} is even LESS contributory than the typical Town!Pesco, which by Pesco-meta is far LESS contributory than the typical Scum!Pesco.It's his Town meta, but overblown. He's trying to manipulate his own reads.
When I know something of you personally, I WILL use it for an advantage. That is all.
As for the other people, I just thought some of their reasoning was kind of lame. Town do want to win their duels becuase it prevents scum from winning if it's scum vs town (obviously in town vs town it doesn't matter as much, but townies won't know who scum is). Chaos trying to spin that and a couple of other perfectly fine statements doesn't sit well with me.
I'm disagreeing with how it was phrased. 'Win duels' is not the same as 'Don't lose duels'. Why does he say specifically WIN? Its the exact wording that makes a difference.This is just nitpicking and playing absolutely idiotic Gotcha Games(TM). This is not Scumhunting. It does not catch Scum. On the contrary, it does a decent job sometimes at giving the illusion of someone doing actual Scumhunting, and when I've seen someone use it, they were overwhelmingly Scum.
Also, what possible sort of role could a non-vanilla Town Pesco do in a Town vs. Town duel that would be amazingly terrible? Seriously, enlighten me on this, I'm curious.
This sentence contradicts itself. Please restate/fix your reasoning or re-think your case, thanks.What I meant is that Pesco may have been trying to start a challenge depending on the fact that people would trust him due to his usually correct instincts and the fact that just going for someone seems to be a reasonable D1 strategy in some people's minds. Therefore it's scummy as he assumed people's thoughts of him would make it easy for him to challenge and win.
@Kitten4u: Who ever said I was using WoT as a scumtell? Established scumtells won't work in this game, as has been pointed out numerous times. I voted based on WoT because it gave me a headache.
We're probably not going to catch scum based on scumtells or scummy play or what not. We will need to look for patterns in the records. I'm also wary of those pointing out strategies to break the game; scum might know something about the setup which we don't.
Also sorry for inactivity, I was at a wedding for most of yesterday/last night. Haven't really had time to follow the game properly.
'Policy lynch Pesco. Whoever he is accusing can not be scum because it's Pesco!'When did anyone say something like this? Why not something like 'Whoever he is accusing is unlikely to be scum given the lack of points against him, and he's probably scum given his hastiness to get someone killed'? Why jump to such crazy levels of misrep if you're Town?
Alex, you knew what you were getting into when you sign up for a game here. So why go back on your vehement word to never be in a game with me? What pro town value is there in your play when my name is removed? You claim meta for wanting me lynched yet you've avoided being in games with me. What credibility can you prove when you're acting purely on prejudice that should have been left by the door?This reeks of desperation, to be frank. 'You said you didn't want to play a game with me, why are you paying so much attention to me now that we're in a game together?' :/
My post was directed at one person only. One that assumed scum before finding evidence.- I said 'when has ANYONE said that' to point out just how exaggerated it was. NO-ONE has said anything like that.
I can only assume you haven't read anything else if that's all you can say, Rou.Or alternatively I think people are already talking way too freaking much for DAY 1. What do you want, a list of suspicions signed in triplicate? It's sort of hard to produce cases when you cut the voting spectrum down to 2 players in a matter of hours.
My post was directed at one person only. One that assumed scum before finding evidence.
Pot calling the kettle black.
Since we've come so far. Let's talk about what next after I flip town. What are you guys going to do about my idea of letting Rou take all the wins from there on?
what is this i don't evenIf I had to guess I'd suspect scum have put one member on both sides, therefore ensuring a recorded victory whoever wins. Of course this means that whoever enforced the challenge is scum, so...yeah.
He accuses both Alex and Ciato of being Scum, but he also hasn't presented evidence of such. The only thing is how he dislikes Alex's dislike of Pesco (Town), but there was never a mention of Ciato from his mouth.
I've lost so much I have ceased caring about proper English!
CHAOS vs. Alex
Sympathies to Kilga, I know you have zero motivation, but you do know this environment well, any final thoughts on the rest of the players before you go out?
UK: Completely forgot about her, to be honest. That's probably not a good sign. Total lack of content today is worrying.
Did anything happen to you gameplaywise as a result of winning the duel yesterday?
Or, I could ask everyone to make a request of information of me that I'll provide, which would both answer questions and allow me to integrate back in the game, if that makes sense.
Or, I could ask everyone to make a request of information of me that I'll provide, which would both answer questions and allow me to integrate back in the game, if that makes sense.
- Which of Alex and Ciato do you think is Tom's scum buddy?
- Who not involved in today's challenge do you think is scum?
This setup leads to confusion... Honestly, it's hard to figure out where we should go from here as any time we could have had for discussion on everyone has been nuked by people instantly challenging each other and drawing our attention to them...
What about Pesco's opinion, Rou? It's entirely possible he was right about you. Perhaps you should be pitted against one of them?
One little problem though. Everyone has already discussed everything you just said, with less words.See comment about: discussed to death. There really isn't little more to add about the whole debacle today other than the fact that Tom is almost certainly Scum and needs to die, Kilga is almost certainly Town and is going down with the ship sadly, Alex is Probably Townie but maybe not and Ciato is Probably Scum but maybe not. As for the rest of the people here, that's what the reread I'm about to do right now is for. Thanks.
What about Pesco's opinion, Rou? It's entirely possible he was right about you. Perhaps you should be pitted against one of them?As much as I'd like that, I don't think the rest of Town has the same faith in me that Pesco did. >_>
See comment about: discussed to death. There really isn't little more to add about the whole debacle today other than the fact that Tom is almost certainly Scum and needs to die, Kilga is almost certainly Town and is going down with the ship sadly, Alex is Probably Townie but maybe not and Ciato is Probably Scum but maybe not. As for the rest of the people here, that's what the reread I'm about to do right now is for. Thanks.
As much as I'd like that, I don't think the rest of Town has the same faith in me that Pesco did. >_>
I am going to say I can see Kilga and the rest of us 'accidentally' choosing the wrong person and still giving scum a win. Whoever we chose the winner to be, we best be careful about. In fact, it is just the same case as Alex vs. Ciato with a larger pool of contestants.
Which gives us a higher chance of picking town, actually. Unless Kilga hilariously managed to pick all scum.
Is that where you stand at the moment?The one person who pretty much everyone thinks is Town, Kilga, listed me as neutral. So yeah.
Anyway, personally I think it's a great idea to let me take out Alex and Ciato next Day(s).
@Roukan: Hm. You bring up an interesting point. Ignoring the possibility of Kilga accidentally picking a Scum to fight whichever of Alex or Ciato, if we could narrow down their alignments somehow and then only off the one we consider to be Scum, then that is a net win for Town. At the same time, BOTH Alex and Ciato being Scum is a distinct possibility, albeit a minor one. Would want more input from the rest of Town on this.
I don't believe you are town, Alice.So stating my opinion on the current fight today is an Anti-Town action now? Really? The only complaint that is valid there is the Excess Amount of Words, which I will admit is an annoying habit that I need to cut down on, but it is no more intrinsically Anti-Town than your prospensity to start worthless arguments with other people that go on for several pages (see: UK/Bardiche D1. Similar complaint about having to read that over upon every reread applies here. And no, it's not useful for determining alignment, I read the entire thing over in detail and it is 95% back-and-forth juggling of the same couple points over and over). So yeah.
And Alex matches in 'Let me just toss something about how the game should go then contribute...nothing?' Hes done more gaming the system than scum hunting, last I checked and maybe I should reread both of them. I'm not sure where I got that impression, but I don't like how I got to that.This is a weird setup which is distinctly skewed towards Town and requires planning for either faction to win (if Scum doesn't plan, Town can just pick them out or pick themselves out and leave Scum with Insufficient Heads(TM). If Town doesn't plan, then Scum can take over voting and challenges, and swing things their way). As a result, gaming the setup, as much as I hate to say it, is important in this game.
Uuuuuhhh.
You're saying this in a game where the reason you most want to be in the lynching line is if you're scum.
Seriously, Cid?
I got plenty of maidhood in my last game over there.
Veeeeerrrry interested to hear Cid's reason now. It's all but certain to me (and most other people, at a glance) at this point that today's flips will be Tom scum Kilga town, can you talk about why you aren't sure or why this matters to whatever you have to disclose?
I can see where Pesco's coming from on calling out Bard's first post, it reminds me of his Day 1 play when he was scum with Ciato in that Laggy game a while ago. There's no real "mindhax" to be applied, logic dictates the post is quite reportery. I do give slight pause because I know Bard tends to play like this regardless of alignment but not a whole lot.
At the moment, I'm favoring Rou to kill Pesco if Bardiche flips town, if only for the dramatic value.
Pesco looks completely suicidal. Bardiche, however, seems to be putting up a facade of 'tactics are key'. They're the complete opposite, good for trying to think up 'Which is scummier, tactics or jumping into things?'.
Now then, to fall into "reporter" sty-- no, nevermind. I think you're all suitably able to look at Pesco's course of action, and I believe I highlighted earlier someone who admitted that "rushing into duels everytime will just get them lynched".
I have no clue what UncertainKitten is trying to accomplish here.
Alice affirmed where she/he/it stands at this moment, attacking over a wall of text that we'd "have to read again" is... well, scratch that, this place has weirder habits.
Anyway, personally I think it's a great idea to let me take out Alex and Ciato next Day(s
So stating my opinion on the current fight today is an Anti-Town action now? Really? The only complaint that is valid there is the Excess Amount of Words, which I will admit is an annoying habit that I need to cut down on, but it is no more intrinsically Anti-Town than your prospensity to start worthless arguments with other people that go on for several pages (see: UK/Bardiche D1. Similar complaint about having to read that over upon every reread applies here. And no, it's not useful for determining alignment, I read the entire thing over in detail and it is 95% back-and-forth juggling of the same couple points over and over). So yeah.
Regarding Roukan: going over his past posts, he seems to miss the one main Scum-Roukan tell I've had for him: namely, regurgitating cases. Beyond that, he hasn't done anything overtly Scummy so far, which gives me a reasonable amount of confidence that he's Town. Still not sure if he's The Right Man For Tomorrow's Job(TM), though.
Warning - while you were typing 20 new replies have been posted. You may wish to review your post.
I've been distracted for the past couple of hours, but that should be ending soon, and I'll be able to catch up and give proper thoughts to the things I've been keeping loose tabs on, like Bard's secrecy but not anymore, Cid's suggestion, Alice's question and oh god UK why did you post something like that I mean seriously I'm very likely to not bother reading all that.
I favor putting Alex and Ciato against each other in the next fight. Using the towniest player to kill one of them gives us the risk that the one killed is town and the one chosen to perform the kill is scum. That risk may be actually be greater by choosing scummy players to kill each other...I'm sorry, what? The towniest player is most likely to be scum? This is just plain ridiculous.
where she might actually matter to the plot in some fashion
*whistles*
Ninja'd by Serp. Cleaning up Ciato and myself is a good plan since as above it is generally obvious that at least one of the two of us has to be scum. Buuuut actually pitting the two of us together runs into the difficulty of a flat 50% chance of being wrong and giving scum a head, from the perspective of an outside townie who isn't confident on us one way or the other.
Bard is a different matter altogether, he wasn't involved in the 2v2 and you're arguing for his death purely on the basis of "kill people who have won duels vs town" which carries no weight as a sole reason as I've said earlier.
Trying to math out a path to endgame this early on is a very bad idea, it is likely scum have roles that will screw with plans, etc etc.
It seems possible/probable that winning challenges replenishes charges of limited use abilities?
I still really don't like Serp's claim that scummy players should challenge each other. His 'but maybe the players we THINK are Town are actually SCUM!' is out-and-out WIFOM. Definitely worth following when the current madness comes to a close.
It seems possible/probable that winning challenges replenishes charges of limited use abilities?Yes this is the case.
I mean, Bard's 'supposed' power itself seems pretty useless.
And where the hell is K4U? She's been horribly inactive this game, and even there she hasn't helped. This doesn't read like she usually does.
Also of note: I don't think we actually have a Cop here who can just go out and Cop someone free-of-charge because that'd break the setup something fierce: get Cop to confirm someone, kill Cop to confirm alignment, then cruise control into "scum can't get victories".
For clarification, does hammering constitute winning a duel?
SO if you'd hammer on using your power you'd regain another use of it?
Rules clarification/patch: In the event that scum outnumber town, it will be assumed that scum automatically clean up the remaining townie heads and add them to their win total. This was sorta implied in the rules but not explicitly stated and there may be confusion with the 'games ends when someone wins' note, apologies.
Kitten - that power removes Hime Star effects from a day and lets us get out of rash challenges. Why on earth would you want to use it today? Save it for a day where such things happen. (Like yesterday. Why on earth would you not have used it yesterday?)
1. "But the players who you think are town may be scum" has absolutely nothing to do with WIFOM and that you say otherwise means you're grasping for buzzwords.But your argument resolves to be 'Players you think are town are more likely to be scum than players you think are scum'. What the hell?
2. Setting up today's match as Alex versus Ciato was also Kilga's last instruction as seen on page 10. To say that advocating that strategy is scummy seems pretty stupid.And Kilga can't be wrong? He can't make a mistake?
I...don't understand why exactly K4U claimed. The ability to flip the result of a contest sounds...decidedly scummy. Really really REALLY scummy. Disgustingly, absurdly, WHOA CRAZY scummy. Scummier than Pesco (and trust me, that's saying something).
It seems possible/probable that winning challenges replenishes charges of limited use abilities?
I also dislike Cid's proposition on the sheer fact that he is outright pretty much trying to get a kill here.
You will soon receive a message that should hopefully remove that 'supposed' part of the argument.
Also it's TOTALLY worth killing for I could have random rants of great zeal and love.
Or we could take a third option. I can change the rules of the day to be like a normal game of Mafia (majority of votes = lynch etc.) Whoever hammers will get a victory, but scum cannot hammer one of their buddies and get a victory (I already asked Carth for clarifacation on this). If Ciato or Alex flip town we can look at the person that hammers more closely at least and if they flip scum...well they flip scum. I can fire this off any time before the challenge phase starts, so we have plenty of time to discuss stuff still. I'm not sure if this would be any better than Kiro's idea, but I figured I should throw it out there.
I...don't understand why exactly K4U claimed. The ability to flip the result of a contest sounds...decidedly scummy. Really really REALLY scummy. Disgustingly, absurdly, WHOA CRAZY scummy. Scummier than Pesco (and trust me, that's saying something).
Flip the result of a contest...? Where the heck did you get that from?
Also, big surprise: this game's pretty much about figuring alignment from actions, and thus by extension, you guessed it, behaviour. If you're going to be all rose-tinted on me about that, kindly fix yourself some good tea, dip in some warm water and try to cooly rationalise whether you're thinking straight?
Back up why Rou is town again, UK? I missed that.
I'll say outright, I have no issues with Kiro due to the fact he really hasn't triggered any flags. Before you start, no, I'm with Kilga's call here, Kiro doesn't just post set up crap.
If you have anything really good to bring up, please do so in a comprehensible format this time. I'd really like to hear why you're so freaking dead set on Kiro being scum, because I do not see it.
Also, before you assume I'm claiming something, Read. I'm simply saying I have NO REASON TO BELIEVE KIRO IS SCUM, therefore do not have a reason to object. I am not outright saying a person is town.
Where the fuck did this come from? I never said you were claiming anything :S.
Dear God, if you are going to claim Kiro is town, BACK IT THE FUCK UP!
....
I want Rou, Alex, and CHAOS to explain themselves on "Oh, Kiro is totally town"
I linked every goddamn post that makes him scummy. If you can't read it, Tough
Fucking
Cookies
(Lazy fuckass)
Around there, I'd say.
He hasn't done much like mostly everyone, but he has done fairly good for what he has.
Yes. I saw those. I did not come to the same conclusion. Posts alone do not make a person scummy, and your reasoning is mostly bad or I do not find it true.
Could we chuck this hostility out the window? I'm not a regular here, but I'm not fond of overtly present hostility in a simple party game.
That's about how I felt when you began trolling me for trying to accuse you of being scum. In this game of uncertainties, it's only natural we'll disagree or have wildly conflicting ideas. Like I stepped back and re-evaluated what I was pursuing, perhaps it's a good idea for you to do the same.
That's about how I felt when you began trolling me for trying to accuse you of being scum. In this game of uncertainties, it's only natural we'll disagree or have wildly conflicting ideas. Like I stepped back and re-evaluated what I was pursuing, perhaps it's a good idea for you to do the same.
I'm sorry. Stupidity really puts me on edge after having to deal with an hour and a half of it IRL. I was hoping there wouldn't be more stupid when I came home.
I still think you're scum though...sorry :(.
As for the stupidity thing:
Was this:
In response to this:
? Or another part of my post?
Kiro is one of the towniest people to me right now mostly by virtue of posting intelligent things and not posting crazy things. I'm not sure why I'm being attacked for that, but since UK is saying "Rou is totally town he just is!" in the same breath as "Why are you saying people are townie!" I don't even know what to reply there.
Ciato vs me is objectively a very silly idea and should not be done unless people are 100% on me being town and Ciato being scum, and I don't think people are. (Or vice versa but there's even less support for that.) It is nearly guaranteed that one of us is scum and for people who are unsure of our alignments, calling me vs Ciato wrong is a 50/50 risk of giving scum a head. With having others execute us instead, the executioner MIGHT be scum but the chance of that is far less than 50%. It is just obviously safer.
The other possibility here is that both Ciato and myself are town. While I don't believe this to be the case since Ciato is playing very scummily, I realized I was wrong earlier - it MIGHT make sense for Tom to have set up two townies like this if scum have someone that can come in and go "Wait guys let me clean them both up" in... exactly the manner Cid has done. In fact swooping in wanting to be executioner here looks very good for scum in general. I don't like giving the job to anyone who comes out and says they want it and can't or won't give full disclosure on why.
You: "I am angry because I feel surrounded by stupidity!"
Me: "That's how I felt, but ultimately I was wrong about being surrounded by stupidity and I think you are, too."
That's okay, I think the same thing of you. :( At least it's mutual. Now if only it was lo--must. resist. Or else I will be bludgeoned.
As for the matter at hand, I strongly strongly strongly strongly strongly don't know whether I can support anyone. If people can vouch for Rou's, uh, sometimes mistaken assessments of the situation as being a general trait of his, I can be more confident in supporting that.
It seems a fairly pointless exercise by now; it's better to focus on matters at hand due to our dwindling amount of time. I'll revisit my thoughts regarding that when it becomes prevalent.
I must add that I share UncertainKitten's concerns regarding Kiro; while I don't think he's scum per se, I don't feel as confident about him as others seem to do.
This is an impass?, but if you were to promote Kiro to town champion I would definitely vote for his survival.
If I understand your third line, in the event of Kiro VS Ciato you'd vote for Ciato's continued survival? You say "lean Kiro", which I think could be your vote, but the rest seems to indict him of being a master of escapism from being revealed for the scum he may be.
Which you had the unfortunate misfortune to be. Rest assured that when it becomes pertinent I will re-examine what was said so far and see if I can truly establish my distrust as being founded. In fact, let me do so right now and we can bury this nasty hatchet.
I did a reread of his posts, initial impression holds up. There is a fair amount of game/theory discussion in his posts, but I found it to be always applied to the situation at hand and he consistently proceeds with the intent of discounting setups that would give scum an advantage. Yes, this could be faked, but you could say that about anything. He seems like a safer bet than most other players to me.
Ciato vs me is objectively a very silly idea and should not be done unless people are 100% on me being town and Ciato being scum, and I don't think people are. (Or vice versa but there's even less support for that.) It is nearly guaranteed that one of us is scum and for people who are unsure of our alignments, calling me vs Ciato wrong is a 50/50 risk of giving scum a head. With having others execute us instead, the executioner MIGHT be scum but the chance of that is far less than 50%. It is just obviously safer.
My kneejerk reaction to Kefit's proposal is "wat?"
I don't think it's a good one, nor do I think it's town motivated. Every head counts for scum, even if they keep losing people on it later. We could have up to two scum wins so far. It's possible Kefit is planning to sacrifice himself for a third. Course, he's not in my scum picks, but he was definitely on the scummier end of my analysis.
The scum only have so many people to lose in their hunt for heads. They are in a race with the town to get their five heads before they are all killed. In the event that we are left with one scum standing after the scum have claimed three heads, then the scum can only ever win if we let any given person win more than one challenge after that point.
If my analysis is correct, then in the worst case scenarios I am scum, Alex is scum, Bard is scum, and Tom is scum (and dead). None of us will ever win a challenge again. Yet only three heads will have been claimed (Pesco, Kilga, and Ciato). Thus, barring unknown roles and powers, the scum would only be able to win if either you let one person win multiple duels after this point, or there are more then five scum.
Surprisingly I'm opposed to the guy basically going: "There are no downsides to this plan, not at all."
^ I agree. The day effect or scum roles could ruin any plans we try to have for the entire game at this point.
It really is more important to focus on the NOW.
Also, you referring to Kilga suggesting the Alex v. Ciato fight as further justification for having it go is unusual since you're smart enough to not tout the "trust dead Townie's advice" even after Alex himself suggested it probably wasn't as good of an idea.
If Ciato flips Scum, my first impression is that I don't think Bard is Scum with her. Ciato's vote for Pesco's survival came really late and only brought it up to 5 versus 7 for Bardiche's survival. In essence, why would both Tom and possible ScumCiato both try to indirectly bus a ScumbuddyBard on Day 1? Optimistically, this would suggest Scum did not get a head on Day 1.
If my analysis is correct, then in the worst case scenarios I am scum, Alex is scum, Bard is scum, and Tom is scum (and dead). None of us will ever win a challenge again. Yet only three heads will have been claimed (Pesco, Kilga, and Ciato). Thus, barring unknown roles and powers, the scum would only be able to win if either you let one person win multiple duels after this point, or there are more then five scum.
UK: I'm not sure how the standard of content is making me look scummy in your eyes. I gave an opinion on Pesco versus Bard. I also gave one that is for the mess of yesterday and today. And now that we have confirmed at least 1 dead Scum, I can make more connections based off of that as shown above. Bard and Alex look good (if Ciato also flips Scum), Cid I'm still ok on because if he gets a kill, he will not really be expected to get another one once he unveils his ability if it really helps Town that much. Also if he's some super Scum role rather than Super Town role, he never had to reveal it since he's been on the shortlist of those who look safe to initiate challenges; he could have been nominated and nobody would know he was prepping something big. Out of everyone else, Serp's logic today all seem to be able to give Scum a chance to bag heads and I don't like it. Lessly, Chaos has been cheerleading and Jam and Alice are almost identical in lurkerifics so my opinion on them is fluid but my next choices. Rou is not triggering warnings for me. As for you UK, I'm surprised you want to beat my supposed guilt to death. I can tell your intent is serious as hell so there's almost nothing I myself can say to change that opinion and it doesn't fit my Townie impression of you to tunnel that hard. I also don't think you as either alignment would challenge me directly at this stage so I don't see how you hanging onto this is beneficial to general discussion. In other words, I don't get you.
Putting a crazy strategy out there to have some holes poked in it is one thing, but I have a really hard time believing that Kiro's reasoning would be so bad as to let this point pass as town, especially while simultaneously claiming that my plan is too dangerous. Whether or not he's scum with Kefit, I'm pegging Kiro as likely scum with a path to the endgame mapped out. Given a choice, I'd like to clean up the loose ends before dealing with him, but I should state for the record that if Kiro were to take on any of the unchallenged players right now, I'd be voting for his opponent.
I've tried typing but I can simply say I -don't get you-. Its like you refuse to believe anyone could have an opposite viewpoint. It makes my head HURT how close minded you are being.
Please answer why I can not dare disagree with you without a 12 page essay why. Then I can make my call on if you're just being stupid of scummy.
Well, that was fast.
ps Tentacle monsters are really more a Yukino thing.
Question, Carthrat! If the aforementioned power to turn the Day's proceedings into a regular Mafia Day is employed, are Kefit, Alex and I eligible targets for Hammer or do we acquire Hammer immunity through some bizarre turn of events?
Might it be a good idea to turn the day into a regular game and lynch one of those 3 as they were kind of being targeted anyway or should be just look at everyone else to find who may be scummy?
If Kilga thought that it was a good idea, and he was town, I don't see how my holding to that idea could possibly look scummy, even if you don't agree with it.This is what we call 'regurgitating a case'. You're basically saying 'the dead guy said it, he can't be wrong because he's Town, and therefore I can't be wrong!'
I'd again suggest Chaos as an option for today. Kiro is still acceptable as town champion (also still willing to be the challenger myself, of course).
Welp, I'd request that someone challenges Serp. I'm sorry, I really don't like the way he tried to validate Alex vs. Scum!Ciato. His claim that 'people we think are Town are likely scum' reeks of stupid WIFOM.
Any good objections to this?
If I'm going to go down per town opinion, I'd prefer Ciato do it so you guys get some info on his claim. Which I'd hope you guys not mess the hell up on. In fact, there is absolutely no reason for Ciato to NOT be the challenger. If he is scum, this nabs us third scum down. If he is not, we get this magical power of his, which should probably nab third scum. If I am scum, then we get the third scum down anyway.
Where did he explicitly say it like that? It feels like misrep.
Well, as I mentioned before, Tom's strategy made less sense for a townie than for scum, but it still makes so little sense as scum that I wouldn't be at all surprised if it were a total red herring to have us pick more (potentially scum) outside players to off you and Ciato.Quoted from here (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=5016.msg256882#msg256882).
I don't get the first part? If he is scum and you are town you just gave scum a head. Though I doubt you're town
Care to wager your life on that doubt, Kitten? It'd be nice to take two scum out with one life.
Well. Yes, but Cideon will have his cover rather heavily blown. It is still exposing a scum, and while at a fairly bad cost, more than enough.
Um...Rou, that doesn't say that at all. What that says is people we pick as town are potentially scum. Not probably scum.No, he's saying 'I think scum have placed a Townie-looking scum in our ranks, thus we can't trust the people we think are Town.' We obviously won't challenge them with the people
No, he's saying 'I think scum have placed a Townie-looking scum in our ranks, thus we can't trust the people we think are Town.' We obviously won't challenge them with the people
I...uh...really don't see this at all. I do see his warning as superfluous, and that post bugged me, but I'm really disliking how you insist he was claiming that townie people are probably scum.Y'know, if we ever agreed on something we'd be an obvious scumpair.
Still, my point stands in that he wanted us to choose the people we suspected to be scum to be executioners ahead of people we believed to be Town. Which, by definition, means we're more likely to give a head to scum in the event of a mislynch. Can you argue with that slightly less hysterical version?
What doubt? I'm fully willing to challenge you if town agrees to it. I have my list of 5 names. I am willing to back those up.
How so? I really don't understand what in the nine hells you are proposing.
Um...you do realize scum could have a role that gains a charge.
Heavens no. I come up town, you die. Nothing else, I'm not about to let you have a kill now, am I?
I don't see what is so hard to understand. If ScumCid has no power and like a fool, I've given scum a kill, you will know immediately. If ScumCid has a power and uses it, he is STILL in public view from my death and will have to put something up. He will not be able to as scum.
Well no. But, I'm 'scum' anyway, so whats the chance of scum getting a head from me?
Still, my point stands in that he wanted us to choose the people we suspected to be scum to be executioners ahead of people we believed to be Town. Which, by definition, means we're more likely to give a head to scum in the event of a mislynch. Can you argue with that slightly less hysterical version?
Welp, I'd request that someone challenges Serp. I'm sorry, I really don't like the way he tried to validate Alex vs. Scum!Ciato. His claim that 'people we think are Town are likely scum' reeks of stupid WIFOM.
"But the players who you think are town may be scum" has absolutely nothing to do with WIFOM and that you say otherwise means you're grasping for buzzwords.
This is what we call 'regurgitating a case'. You're basically saying 'the dead guy said it, he can't be wrong because he's Town, and therefore I can't be wrong!'
I wasn't pointing to Kilga's endorsement as a sign that we should take that strategy. I was directly responding to UK's accusation that holding to that strategy looked scummy. If Kilga thought that it was a good idea, and he was town, I don't see how my holding to that idea could possibly look scummy, even if you don't agree with it.
This is further decent but...I don't like the reasoning. You are giving Kiro a Burden of Proficiency here. He's a good player, but he's human. People make mistakes.
As for who should fight today, I've been getting townie feel from Cid and scummy feel from Kiro, so I'm going to nominate that matchup.
That's the most fucking retarded thing you have ever suggested.
That said if someone I think is town administers my death on the incredible off chance CHAOS is town, sure, I'll go with that.
That said, this is still the most fucking retarded thing I've ever seen Cha. I'm sure I don't need to remind you last game about how people can, you know, actually be WRONG while being town.
And there's the logic fail. How do you know scum don't have a role that could look town? Hell, I play with role meta all the time in my games.
I'm seriously not fond of this entire subliminal LET'S KILL BARD message being spread here.
Rest of your post seems fine except for this. What happened to the idea that setting up scum v. scum matches is ideal that I thought you were proposing earlier? I only support Cid vs. CHAOS because I want to test his role. Otherwise, I'd want Kiro vs. CHAOS.
Excellent! Two scum down with one life then.
Of course not, but I'd like to assume they can be right as well.
I'm not sure what you're at. Do you mean a role that will flip town when lynched? If so, it is an interesting thought. If you mean a strictly neutral seeming power, than Scum has no reason to block it like Cid has been suggesting, and it will certainly not be worth a zero charge starting.
If ScumCid intends to live after his power is used, it very much has to be EXACTLY as he suggested it to be. He has suggested it is very very town-oriented and sheer mechanics suggest it has to be useful. If he can not visibly deliver this, he has been lying and is very clearly scum.
You can not in this situation, REASONABLY fake a townie role as scum. If you guys let him however, that is basically town incompetence I can't make excuses for. Do you not trust yourselves THAT much?
I find it rather likely that Kiro is scum, and somewhat likely that Chaore is scum, but I find it very unlikely that they're scum together. And I don't want to give Kiro a kill when he's likely to find a way to slide around getting wrapped up as a loose end himself. Either scum is leading around the town (look at Alex, Bardiche, Kiro, Kefit), or scum is genuinely being steamrolled (look at Chaore, maybe Rou, plus quiet people). If there were a mix, then I wouldn't expect things to look so clear-cut.
May I please ask why CHAOS and Kiro can't be scum together? Or is the "loud scum/quiet scum" theory your justification?
Bard...are you going to actually produce content or just insist you are town?
Seriously, that last post reeks of "Lay off me! I'm scum but I almost am out of scrutiny! Please stop bringing me up!"
I've no reads on nearly anyone here. Everyone's still caught up in the same bloody nonsense over "how do we strategically shot web" instead of "okay, who's scummy and who isn't?"
Ok, what I don't get is how you are linking them. Is there a logic here I'm missing?
Or maybe I just want to say that this entire LET'S HAPHAZARDLY KILL PEOPLE FOR STUPID REASONS RATHER THAN HUNT SCUM AND GET THEM KILLED is stupid business, a waste of time and we should focus our efforts elsewhere.
If you think I'm scum, get on with it and then thumb-twiddle as you try to reconcile scum's current actions in the knowledge that Pesco VS Bard was a scum-supported Town VS Town spat.
>_> You all do realise Tom was supportive of it and urged it on right? Right.
It's a pretty weak link, I admit. It basically boils down to the motives behind Tom's action. Either he had a weak team and was panicking, or he had a strong team and was feigning panic to earn towncred for his buddies so they could could make it high and dry into LyLo. See Chaore's sacrifice in the recently concluded RKS Mafia for how that works out.
Let me put it this way, UK: Suppose that you were on a scumteam with Chaore and other newbie players like him. Would you commit suicide to earn them towncred and hope that they survive through LyLo, or would you want to stay in the game to lead them yourself? Now, suppose that you're on a team with Kiro and other experienced players like him. Wouldn't you be more willing to sacrifice yourself in a gambit to pave the way for them? I don't know Tom, but I get the impression from Carthrat's invitation of him from the other forum that he's a skilled player.
Hm. I realize that this says nothing about what he might have done with a team of mixed experienced and newbie players. I'm probably already stretching too far with the evidence we have, here, but I'm thinking that Tom would be less likely to follow either course of drastic action with a mixed team. He'd probably be more likely to just try and take on the accusation traditionally. In any case, my argument against letting Kiro have a win when the several players seem to advocate letting him live indefinitely still stands.
Usernames that have recently been changed in the interest of memes have been changed back. At least one player still alive has expressed confusion due to all the changing names.
You can resume being a Sikieiki or a Bemani song after the game.
Still mildly suspicous of UK, but not as much as I was before. Certain attacks just look like reaching to me (see attack on Alice) and that wall flung around a ton of suspiciouns, enough to make me a wary. Also has the "quick challenges are okay" mentality that I don't like (though, I suppose I should get clarifacation here, exactly how quick is quick UK?). Is probably not scum if Chaos is scum.
My read of Bardiche was definitly colored by my scum read on Pesco. He doesn't look nearly as good as I thought he did after the reread, but I don't think he's scum. Him being scum with both Ciato and Tom is just weird imo.
Can she summarize her current cases in, say, one to three clear, understandable sentences each? (For that matter can anyone else do so?)
I want to emphasize this: None of this strategy is dependent upon my personal alignment, and it only very loosely restricts the town's pool of actions.
Quick is "Within 20 hours" at this point, since apparently people allow other people to take over the challenge when we start to reach 24 hours and everyone's thumb is up their ass. I do rescind my opinion that a four hour challenge was EVER ok, since people can't seem to see past the two contestants and actually scumhunt.
You obviously haven't been reading my posts. I do create a solid suspicion set of five people, so I'm not "just throwing around accusations everywhere", though I do take notes of everything. Alice actually looks a lot better after my reread, only that one post was bad.
Why so? Perhaps I missed something?
And K4U, do you agree with his "scumhunting" methods involving just trying to kill "whoever says the most ridiculous stuff"? Further, do you agree with his list of ridiculousness?
UK? Massive walls of text, which are anti-town and deliberately obfuscating, combined with "scumhunting" which I can't make heads or tails of. It looks like she's rambling on in her own world making up tons and tons of irrelevant non-content to hide behind, then trying to give herself credit for it by repeating her "Well I'm 2 for 5!" line. She's not 2 for 5, she's 0 for 0, I've been trying to read her posts but I haven't seen a single coherent case from her.
Depends on if the ridiculous things are scummy or not. Second part you should be able to answer yourself since I just put up my opinions on like everyone. But so you don't have to go back and reread, I agree with him on you and Chaos (though I don't think you two can be scum together), I disagree on Serp and Rou and I have no opinion on Jam.
A lot of it's gut, but I'll explain where I think it's coming from as best I can. It's just the way they voted for Pesco. There were plenty of good reasons to vote against him if they wanted to bus, but they didn't use any of them. So, it doesn't look like a bus to me. Ergo, Bardiche must be town. Two people attacking a scum buddy like that just feels weird to me, so I consider it more likely that Bard is town.
Mostly just has to do with the way it was said. It doesn't feel as solid to me as you claim it is. Certain parts where, yes, but not all of it.
that's not what I asked. What I asked was if you agreed that what the players he named were saying were ridiculous.
Don't forget this is a large game.
And ideally I really do think that you should be able to condense your opinions on people into under five sentences, but whatever. I obviously can't force you to change the way you play. I don't know how you do it though, I mean I felt like a horrible person for posting my mini-wall and it's not even that long compared to some of the stuff you type. :P
Second, I have come to a conclusion about trying to break the set-up! It's dumb. It took me a lot of thinking about all the strategies that people have posted, but I really think it's a complete waste of time and I will probably smack the next person that does it with a stick. I don't find it scummy, just silly and a waste of time.
Speaking of. You've actually mentioned me only in passing. Care to prove me wrong in that? I'm feeling rather drunbk right now, so I don't doubt I missed something.
At any rate, why are the things I'm saying ridiculous, if I might ask?
Uh, well the fact that you seem to get all angry, get into spats over silly things and swear at trivial things strikes me as silly. The fact that you burried your cases into huge WoT that no one wants to read is silly. As for actual content I think I've already covered that.
Chaore: Much of your speculation about the possibility of me being scum read as though you were only considering the situation from the perspective of what flips from those involved in the match would tell us. Is this a misreading?
Why does that first disclaimer need to exist.
Mostly those last paragraphs trying to read into the mind of team scum that bother me, though. Finding it hard to articulate why, just the net result seems to spending a good deal of time speculating on what-ifs that can't be cleared up without killing people I'm not totally comfortable with killing. Appearance of contributing without saying anything useful or concrete.
Regarding Serp: I'm getting confused on how I disliked your plan and then approved Kefit's was a problem. The core issue is that it was seeming likely that Kefit could not possibly gain a Town head and it turned out he was right due to Ciato being Scum. It doesn't discount him from being Scum himself, but ScumKefit didn't really boost the win condition for his team by stepping forward. LYLO is still going to be awhile away. He's now out of an excuse to gain another kill so that neutralizes him in such a case. I'll get more in probably in 5 hours or so.
If I flip Scum or not would actually -not- change if you were scum.
People are calling Alex confirmed town off of what could very easily be a scum gambit. Maybe Tom really did just panic, but assuming that your opponents are stupid is an easy way to lose just about any game. Very frustrating to need to say this as well.
What I'm much more concerned about right now is what exactly we are going to get out of Cid's alleged power. I can understand the desire not to share details beforehand but it IS going to be something of substantial help that you WILL be able to offer at least convincing circumstantial proof of having taken place and being a protown ability after the fact, right? Because if not I'd suggest just throwing down something like Chao vs UK.
Wait. Nevermind, no how is this exactly an insane speculation? Voluntary challenging is specifically scummy in this set up. This would be something you do look at. Me being involved doesn't mean I completely avoid the speculation... I... Iterate how exactly this is something I shouldn't be doing.
Though, it just now occured to me that if two untested people go into battle with each other, and a townie dies, then it might be smarter to have the towniest players go through and kill each other until a scum pops up. This would hopefully result in a lot of townies being removed from the game before we hit the next scum. And after that next scum death, the two scummiest players could be picked to fight each other in hopes of killing a scum before he claims a head.
If all four of you were scum, then you wouldn't need to win anymore challenges to win the game. All you'd need to do would be to stage a few town v. town duels. You'd just need to get at least two scum to survive through LyLo (and one more scum for every person you named that's actually town). Scum would clean up the remaining heads, whether or not they're "neutralized." If we leave you all alive to LyLo, we're basically putting our faith in you to be town.
Then Kefit shows up, says "Hey guys, I have a foolproof plan for you to follow, it guarantees a town win (except that it actually doesn't) and also requires you to to let me get a kill and then coast 'till endgame (which, despite your revision today, Kefit, it looked pretty clear that that was what you were asking for)."
Either scum is leading around the town (look at Alex, Bardiche, Kiro, Kefit), or scum is genuinely being steamrolled (look at Chaore, maybe Rou, plus quiet people). If there were a mix, then I wouldn't expect things to look so clear-cut.
II. I hold a mild belief that UK is scum.
I don't have much to say here beyond the fact that I agree with Alex's general analysis. However, I'll add that at one point UK attacked the value of my economically reasonable day one post. Seems to me like he was just seeing if she could attack the quality of the post due to the fact that it did not arrive at the correct result for the situation we were in, rather than attacking the course of reasoning applied within it. Not a big deal, really, but hey, every seed of doubt that a scum can fabricate via a fallacious yet facially appealing argument has the potential of paying off big down the line.
Scum need at most four more heads to win. Suppose that two people we consider to be town are actually scum. If they both claim heads, and they both survive through LyLo, then scum wins. Is it ever a smart move in vanilla mafia to say "I'm so certain that these two people are town that I'm willing to wager the game on it"?Stop and think about this for a second. Compare it to the vanilla mafia equivalent, which is 'Suppose that two players who have been acting very Townie are scum'. If you turned around in a game of vanilla mafia and accused the two players who the majority of the Town trusted, would anyone trust you? The only difference is that scum don't get a kill this game and thus we're meant to sit around and sink into the paranoid outset of 'Ooh, maybe the people I think are Town aren't worth trusting!' that you've been promoting.
Though Scum vs. Scum is strictly the most optimal matchup for Town, so...yeah. I'll do a reread of Serp and see what I can make of him.
So, my proposed immediate course of action is this: Next two kills should be between untested combatants. If both kills are town, then the fight afterwards should be between two of the three loose ends. Then alternate between a fight of two untested combatants and a fight between tested combatants until a scumflip gives you more information.
Rou: Rash challenge? You know what we think of that. Ugh.
If no-one else offers anything before deadlineI could easily have challenged Serp right there, but I didn't. I'm saying that I'll challenge Serp if we get to deadline.
At the moment, still unreadable, though honestly a Bard flip would do a lot to determine her alignment considering she seems to be paying lip-service to accusing him despite the back-and-forth arguments with him.
Hi UK, please post your cases, and then challenge Serp or Chaore. This sounds good.
Serp: We HAVE to put our faith that some people are Town. That's what Mafia is all about. You seem to be going against that grain of thought. Yes, the only neutralized scum is one with 0 kills, but having victorious players kill each other off may invariably lead to Scum with 1 kill because someone has to mop up with no opposition. Or we can do it more controlled and "put our faith in some people to be Town" to do the mopping up. Differing circumstances have forced those 3 to be Bardiche, Alex, and Kefit, but until you convince me that one of those 3 are Scum, I have my trust in them and they should not die.
Rou why would you offer to challenge before deadline. Don't do that. There's growing agreement on UK/Serp or possibly UK/Chao, if none of these three step up before deadline then they'll be in trouble on later days. A random pairing if they fail to do so is much preferable to someone who is possibly scum stepping up and saying "Oh I'll challenge and kill this generally disliked person if we don't get anything else by deadline." Do you realize how scummy this is. The quantity of scummy is very.Wait what why. A challenge between someone near deadline on someone who we think is Scummy and have been voting for a challenge against is probably still a better option than a random battle - random means the RNG could give us any kind of matchup it damn well wants, Town vs. Town, Scum vs. Town, Scum vs. Scum, between any two players, no matter how competent/Townie/etc they are, and we have no say in the matter and have to off one of them anyway as opposed to one of the people we have spent the past 24 hours deliberating. Thus, I am not seeing why this action is Scummy at all, let alone Very(TM).
Ninja UK: why not Serp?
Alright, here's the deal. We have 5 hours left in the day.
I will challenge Chaore in about one hour. Any objections?
Ninja UK: I still don't see why you're so damn certain about ANYONE here. This is incredibly alarming, really. Once again I bring up the 'Rou is town' to point out EXACTLY how certain you've been with pretty bad reasoning. THIS is part of the reason I think you're scum, you're using weak malleable scum calls and you act ABSOLUTELY CERTAIN. What the hell?
I... Can not say I actually see how that helps you find scum. If you mess up or are wrong on your first read, you basically waste time being certain on one person. Can you explain how this part works out?
Hoping I get in before challenge gets through. I'd like to stress I want to hear what Alice thinks, so can I call for a bit longer?
Really, since its the first times I've seen Alice actually here and pushing a challenge, I want to get his two cents.
You're still using absolutely terrible scumcalls and your own playing style as an excuse for being certain. This is my main beef right here. You're acting certain over things that you frankly should not be certain over.
Again, it's what I do.
Wait, what? You admit your play is horrible and you're excusing yourself with meta?!
Also, what the heck does EBWOP mean.Edit By Way Of Post.
Alice: I don't see how I could be clearer there? Anyone stepping in and opportunistically offering to take a head is quite scummy, because, uh, that's how the scum would best get heads. A random pairing on the other hand is not too bad for town since we lynch the scummier player and then in future days take out the people who were supposed to challenge and didn't - in a manner of town's choosing.
So, of note is STILL people are not at all answering the question posed here (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=5016.msg259340#msg259340) about that one Kiro post.
Honestly looks fine to me, UK. Might help if you could clarify your problem with the post.
Only thing I have to ponder about is Ciato Vote to clear Bard, and the K4U power analysis. Rest seems to make sense to me. Check it again in context, though.
As regards the Kiro post, when I said earlier that I've become wary of Kiro, it was mainly that post that I was looking at. I agree that the tone is generally off and that's one of the reasons he's gone from townie to neutral in my eyes.
If my analysis is correct, then in the worst case scenarios I am scum, Alex is scum, Bard is scum, and Tom is scum (and dead). None of us will ever win a challenge again. Yet only three heads will have been claimed (Pesco, Kilga, and Ciato). Thus, barring unknown roles and powers, the scum would only be able to win if either you let one person win multiple duels after this point, or there are more then five scum.
Chaore's crazy behavior right now seems to be in his meta as scum. Certainly too erratic to keep around. Wouldn't mind feeding him to Cid either. UK's switch from him to me today also makes me think that maybe she was hard bussing as always, but saw a chance to actually claim a head while still getting towncred after Chaore's inevitable flip. If Chaore flips scum, take a closer look at Kitten.
At any rate, you think Chaore is scum, and that I'm probably scum with him if he is, but you find me town. Is this supposed to be a contradiction?
One more thing: Alex tried to say that today's Hime Star condition was a message directly from Carthrat, telling us that we should abandon my strategy. But the writeup said that the Hime Star was "bloated and foul." Seems more likely that scum directly impose the Hime Star conditions. Scum are afraid that the town will follow my strategy. They set things up so I was most likely to die today. Keep that in mind.Besides the ego trip you seem to be going through by saying scum is making a deliberate effort to kill you, giving them the opportunity to determine the results seems somewhat absurd. Beyond other things, it would make K4U a guaranteed Townie if the claim is true - because if scum setting the days is normal, another role that can change it back to normal is almost invariably Town.
CHAORE! I WANT YOU TO CHOOSE BETWEEN ME AND SERPENTARIUS IN YOUR NEXT POST. NO MORE SNEAKING OUT OF IT!
If there's anything these last few posts seem to be pointing out, it's that everything about this setup is apparently a WIFOM. Seriously why is so much of this game setup discussion and so little of it actual hunting?
One thing I will say is this:Besides the ego trip you seem to be going through by saying scum is making a deliberate effort to kill you, giving them the opportunity to determine the results seems somewhat absurd. Beyond other things, it would make K4U a guaranteed Townie if the claim is true - because if scum setting the days is normal, another role that can change it back to normal is almost invariably Town.
Serp's 'I can't say anything to defend myself' is anti-Town. Townies don't want to die so they would defend themselves to the end. End of discussion.
1 vs. 1 should still be Alex vs. Ciato to keep the number of living victors down and individuals that are not Alex and Ciato need to grow a pair instead of worrying about "what if we make the wrong decision????".
Serp less so. If UK is too outgoing with her opinions, Serp is far too damn extrovertive with his. I get the feeling he isn't trying to get noticed. He isn't TRYING to get his points out, just make them look unsuspicious. It may be a mix of things holding him up rather than actual planning, but I can actually see this happening.
Honestly, I'm leaning town vs. town. But, for obvious reasons I support my victory since I know I'm town and only suspect Serpentarius is. I wish he had posted more like this sooner.
What difference are you seeing?
I wish he had posted more like this sooner.
Doubling on this. I'm actually hearing what you're thinking now, before I wasn't.
Alright, then what are you seeing now that you weren't before?
UncertainKitten (6) - Cid, Jam, Kefit, Alex, Chaore, K4U
Serpentarius (0)
Firstly, unless we know that scum are manipulating the Hime Star, we don't know that K4u's ability works in opposition to it. Secondly, there's no reason why scum are any less likely to end up with a role on their team that can manipulate the Hime Star. It'd be basically like giving them a public dayvig or a tracker or any other publicly verifiable role.Which makes your entire 'hey maybe they're manipulating the Hime Star' crap entirely pointless.
As for letting myself die being anti-town, that's not necessarily true. If I were to kill UK, then I'd probably die tomorrow, quite likely to somebody I consider to be scummier than her. I think that she has better odds of surviving to LyLo than I do, and I want it to be proven that my advice has been given from a townie perspective.Put it this way. If you're Town, you are 100% sure that your death will not kill scum. Are you 100% sure UK is Town? Because if not you could be giving scum a head.
Which makes your entire 'hey maybe they're manipulating the Hime Star' crap entirely pointless.
Put it this way. If you're Town, you are 100% sure that your death will not kill scum. Are you 100% sure UK is Town? Because if not you could be giving scum a head.
And as for your strategy point, this extends extends to the point where apparently it's a bad idea to lynch the people you think are scummy if there are still winners lying around. Being indecisive and lynching our winners WILL screw us over unless all the scum challenge each other which is obviously never going to happen.
Why Serp's survival over UK's?
All I've seen on your posts regarding Serp is a gut read. That's too minimal, can you describe anything more specific?
I get your suspicions on UK for being a distraction, but you said stuff like both of them have said silly things.
-For flinging suspicions around. Some accusations in that WoT were strong, but a lot of it felt like flinging. Some things felt like reaching as well.
For reals?! I come back 9 hours later and there's not a single new reply?!Sorry, this game is really dragging on for me and I don't have the nerve to give everything my all by now. =_=
Every time scum die by this method, the one who killed that scum has not claimed a head. This means that a new matchup between two untested scummy players may be decided. If that matchup kills scum, then we've just killed one scum without giving him a chance to claim a head. Furthermore, even if scum outnumber town in LyLo, the number of heads they claim can only be equal to the number of them that are alive at the time - it prevents any one scum from claiming more than one head.And this falls flat on its face if there are 5 scum. You realise this, right?
Yes, my WoT took note of EVERYTHING I noticed, but as for "flinging suspicions around", I do believe I've stayed relatively close to my list of 5 people ever since that WoT. It's not like I'm trying to attack everyone and see what sticks, which is what you appear to be accusing me of. Honestly, you'd have a more believeable case if you said I was tunnelling.
Originally there was some scathing statement here about how retarded you all were for thinking Kiro's town. But after his initial posts, he seems to get a lot better and a lot more stancey. I can follow him more, and he's dropped most of the set up speculation. Honestly, this is a dead end for the time being. I'll keep reading him in case my mind changes.
So, I'm not allowed to change my mind in light of new facts?
I explained why I challenged Serp over Chaore. It was a combination of town's will and the odds of giving scum a head.
Of course you are. I just don't see how any of the facts changed really.
First point I can buy. Second point is what? I don't even know what you're trying to say there.
As for everything you keep saying that you have strong conviction when you have more or less changed your mind on your top suspect and you accused like half the game of being scum. Yes you can change your mind, and if there's a good reason to do so you should, but that's not what I see. You claim to have all these strong convictions, but I don't see that either. I do however see a lot of little jabs and pokes.
Sorry bard. You have to give more than that. As has already been stated, you've been 95% fluff and 5% MAYBE opinions.
Provide reasoning, please ^-^
Well, the only fact that changed was me reviewing. But that's a major fact, I'd think.
Actually, Question: Who is this "top suspect" you speak of?
Question: Where did I accuse half the game of being scum?
Question: Where do you see your version of events as opposed to mine?
I thought your top suspect was Kiro. He was the first person you listed in your wall and the person you spent the most time attacking so I assumed he was your top suspect. I already quoted what I felt was changing your mind.
In your WoT.
There was the D1 spat with Bard (really any spat, but that one stands out).
The thing with Alice.
Your WoT.
The thing with Alice.
Your WoT.
Those are the big three for me. Most of those attacks (as I said there are a few in the WoT that I don't have a problem with) just don't feel genuine to me and it looks like you're just looking for people to attack.
I just know I have a higher probability of being right than you, Bard.
This is in part reason why I am more inclined to trust Serpentarius. There is something distinctly wrong when someone keeps flaunting their superiority and being generally untoward and condescending to all who stand in opposition.
As for a 'case', you have continuously insisted such is impossible on you, who is but 'a cute kitten no one quite wants to lynch', or some such.
You said, at the time, "I'm ready to challenge Pesco if he doesn't follow up on his promise to you, Bard". If that isn't promoting a quick-challenge I do not know what is. At that moment, naturally you have me leery and distrustful of you, especially considering I spent most of my Day 1 time trying to poke a hole in your arguments.
Later on you declare something akin to "I'm leaning to Bard town now" and yet in follow ups you reveal none of this sentiment and keep yelling "I THINK BARD SCUM": I blame this in part due to a seemly increasing support of the notion that I am likely scum. It doesn't look genuine at all.
You speak in certainties and declare things as "you are blatantly mistaken", "you are completely wrong", "I am right" as if you have knowledge than none of the rest of us do and as if your communicative prowess is such that none of your messages can be interpreted in more than one way.
Everything you say is open to multiple interpretations, no one can be "blatantly wrong" or "blatantly right" when it comes to gauging the meaning behind your words. Perhaps after your flip we can.
I'll read through and see if I can compile a bulletpoint case to appease you. No promises. There's a whole lot of text around here and filtering what is relevant to scumhunting and what is relevant to game setup has hit me with massive apathy.
False. I named 5 players. 8, if you include my soft attack on Alice, Serp, and Jam. But I stood relatively by my 5 picks until I reassessed them. I still stand by 4 out of 5 of them. You cannot win this point because it's wrong
D1 spat with Bard um...is attacking one person attacking me. A person I STILL think is scum.
Further, I'll remind you that in RKS mafia, I got in a spat with UD and was town. In other prior games I've gotten in spats with Kilga as both town and scum. Not a valid point.
The thing with Alice was basically me reading a really scummy post and drawing a conclusion from it without putting him in perspective. I do back off in my WoT because my reread forces me to draw a different conclusion. So, this still doesn't support your point.
Here we go. What doesn't feel genuine about them? If you can explain this, maybe I'll accept you are trying.
Actually, all that arrogance has me majorly turned off from the game now.
Requesting modkill.
Except you don't. He was still in your list of suspects and the point on him was still really bad. It still looks like reaching to me. You didn't really back off until it looked like no one wanted to attack him.
I'm really not sure how I can explain this any better than I have. Your WoT had random jabs at people. It would be easy for you to say that virtually anyone was scum should the case come up. Most of the accusations in you made in the WoT were fairly weak anyway as I've been saying. I think I cover the other stuff that's bothering my in the above quotes.
Actually, all that arrogance has me majorly turned off from the game now.
Requesting modkill.
Bard: *headdesk*
Similarly I would like to clarify that when I say "hate" I mean it in a joking and nonserious fashion. It is easier to type than "thinks they are scummy or otherwise disapproves of their play in some fashion and wishes to lynch them or see them dead or for them to recant their views etc."
All players: Please reduce the levels of needless antagonism. Thank you.
And this falls flat on its face if there are 5 scum. You realise this, right?
I still disagree with killing off Alex due to the ludicrousy of Alex calling out 2 scumbuddies and still netting only 1 Town head with up to 3 Scum neutralized.
K4 hates UK for hatin on Bard
Didn't any of you get suicide education in school you are supposed to help these people and call the suicide hotline for advice suicides are sad :<We didn't realise there was a problem. He looked so determined to fight his case, and then...;_;
I'd be interested to see whether Chaos would be willing to lie down for Alex like he was offering for Cid. The choice between the 2 could make a difference actually.
Fifthly, I'd advise looking at the people who pushed me to challenge Serp. I think there is probably a scum amongst them. I'll look at it myself when I am actually free to have time.
Even if he is town and truthful, if the prize grants some sort of action (and I'm having a hard time thinking of other things it could grant) we have no guarantee that it'll be usable in conjunction with his cop power, it is entirely likely there is a "one action per day" limit similar to those on night actions in normal Mafia games.
Then again, you're probably still thinking I'm scum. So these are wasted words on you until you hit 3/5 missed.
I would scream bloody murder about this if it weren't for my reads on Ciato/Tom's actions saying Cid is also probably town. Probably. Shakily. I fully admit that this is entirely player-based from knowing Ciato and Tom and I have no idea whatsoever why UK and Chao are giving Cid a pass out of nowhere. It is very disturbing.
"oh he must be town if he just wants to die!"
I'm also not really getting where people are getting these town reads on Kefit. Can someone (or everyone, that'd be awesome too) explain it to me?
I support someone townish vs. Chaore today.
At page 19 on reread (jesus christ so many words not doing this again) not yet seeing this glaring oversight, Chaore.
K4U: Can I ask if you have a preference for the former player? Yes, this is a loaded question--I want as many people as possible to chime in on whether I should challenge Chaore. Presently stands at a couple nays opposite support from UK (well, and me, but I won't count myself unless the outcome is otherwise a tie).
I'll wait till your final report before that decision is made.
I don't see anything that significantly impacts my other recent statements. I see you casting vote #5 on for UK's survival, if that's what you mean, but this isn't a major alteration of your voting pattern. Bard suicide, of course, is the most noteworthy event in the past couple pages, but this isn't directly relevant to anything I've said in this last batch of posting (while Bard imploding likely was significantly driven by UK never letting up on him, I don't believe this result was really her intent). If there's still something you think I overlooked, let me know.
Little over two hours before I plan to check out for the night. Anyone around who hasn't weighed in on this yet?
Kefit has posted using logic and reason from the beginning. He hasn't bought into "mind hax", walls of text, "kill anyone who wins vs a townie" or other patently false or anti-town beliefs. He has formed and stated opinions clearly and keenly, and been willing to abandon previous opinions once they are shown to be false. All of his posts are memorable, coherent and contentful. That's about as protown as someone can get in my book, and doubly so in this environment and this game. He is unique in possessing these qualities compared to the rest of the game, except perhaps myself since I strive for those ideals in my play as well.
And what's that supposed to mean, Chaore? I think the only strictly gut read I have is Rou. I've pretty well demonstrated why I think you are scummy. Course, I was wrong on Bard...
Aye, I'm pretty sure about that. It's maddeningly hard to explain.
Chaore: please go commit self-immolation posthaste, thanks.
We're not exactly strict when it comes to night posting.
Hell, we're not exactly strict when it comes to most styles of normally-taboo posting in the game thread.
UK: Anything you want to add? I don't see your updated Scum picks since Chaos didn't turn out to be one.
Not a big deal, really, but hey, every seed of doubt that a scum can fabricate via a fallacious yet facially appealing argument has the potential of paying off big down the line.
UK: The scum don't control the Hime Star conditions, the mod does. That's pretty obvious just from the way they're portrayed and what they are. I've run a game with daily conditions like this that Rat played in, too. Setup speculation is fruitless anyway. Hunt scum.
You know? I realized something that will toss out impressions on the last few posts. Chaore and Serpy were BOTH TOWN. Therefore, people who were pushing for either/or of them are more likely to be scum.
this post from Kiro I think embodies the issues I've had with him all game. There is RARELY analysis of the results of a previous challenge except where ABSOLUTELY NECESSARY to keep looking town. Nothing is ever given beyond the minimum. THIS IS NOT TOWN KIRO!
Little less sure of what to make regarding comments in Day 4 that in some ways urged UK along to challenging Serp rather than Chaos. It's possible rationalization for getting a scumbuddy UK an easier matchup. I doubt Town Alice would have cared nearly as much (as both have flipped Town) and that's really been your only real contribution to the game.No, that is daft: this is still a game of mafia, and as Serp noted, it is still Town's priority to catch Scum. I personally thought Chaore was likely Town, principally due to the fact that if he were Scum he was actively throwing the game constantly and playing against his faction which is not the greatest reasoning but imho still valid, whereas Serp was more likely to, y'know, actually be Scum.
It's like I've stepped into the Twilight Mafia Zone.This ENTIRE GAME has felt like that to some extent >_>, though I think the true moment when Rat got swapped out for Rod Serling was probably around the time of Chaore's self-hammer yesterday.
I think honestly the best thing we have running in our favour is this: If we end up having Townies fighting Townies, we can't lose.
Given UK's recent WoT... Alex as your top choice now? That's pretty nuts. Think about it from a Day 1 perspective. Without knowing what Town has in store for them (like the Cop), why would ScumAlex out 2 of his buddies and then get dragged into the Day 2 mess? You're expecting way too much. And the fact you're glossing over Alice in the WoT just makes me suspect you more.
In regards to Alice v. Jam, I just feel Jam hasn't put up enough of an effort this game to really go into any defense and it's more iffy against Alice. As for me and UK, that's a retarded mess yes and I'd rather not put faith into myself on that one despite what UK has just spouted. The Alex v. Rou suggestion is just retarded to me. I think Alex should just take out Alice or UK.
First off, if you claim Scum-Alex, you are claiming that the clusterfuck on D2 was some kind of masterful gambit to make Alex look good at the expense of Two Scum. While not impossible, this is honestly extremely goddamn implausible.
Combined with the fact that he has not done anything overtly Scummy makes him fairly low-priority on my Scum list.
Oh and what's all this with you and Roukan being so ridiculously Pro-Town. Why is he so Pro-Town? If you're faulting Alex for claiming that Kefit is very Townie while having insufficient evidence to backup your claims with, then don't do the same bloody thing yourself, it makes you look like a goddamn hypocrite.
So your case on Kefit is basically nonexistent, and yet you want him to die? Why? You claim that Jam might be Scum and while the meta tells are similar to RKS Mafia where she was Cop Town keep in mind that she is still a fairly new player and we have a meta pool of 1 (One) game for her and thus trying to use Meta to determine her alignment is quite possibly the most failure-prone thing imagineable oh my god anyway you want Kefit to die over someone who has done very little except parrot cases, by your own statements? You claim that Kefit is Scum because Alex is Scum, despite that the ties are largely one-sided Alex->Kefit and Scum-Alex could just be trying to set up Kefit's death on the slight case that perhaps he would ever die?
Definetly support UK vs. Kiro at the moment unless some other bit of extremely important information comes up soon. Oh my god. Seriously, what the fuck, you two. Not totally against myself vs. Jam or Kefit vs. Jam either. Do not want Alex vs. anyone right now. DO NOT want Roukanken vs. anyone right now. In fact really I do not want anything other than UK/Kiro right now as nobody else looks nearly as awful as those two and it's also very unlikely that they are Scum together or both Town.
I'm here, I just have no idea what to say to that UK wall. It's like I've stepped into the Twilight Mafia Zone. Fortunately Alice has finally come out of the woodwork with what is possibly the best post in the entire game to date, summing up everything I would like to have said but was too burnt out on this game to actually put into words. Color me impressed. I agree with virtually everything Alice said there. UK vs Kiro or someone against Jam sounds very very good.
@UK: No. Fuck you. WHY is Roukan so Pro-Town? Tell me this? At this point I'm starting to wonder if you two are Scum together and you somehow want him to gain Towniepoints(TM) except that doesn't make any sense except that makes him look MORE suspicious so what the fuck is your reasoning I mean seriously what is this I don't even.
This is combined with the fact that both UK and Kiro look terrible, both of them have a large amount of evidence against them, I outlined this in my previous post, and at absolute worst we are looking at Scum vs. Scum (though this seems implausible, what with UK bussing Kiro for multiple days now and then turning around and posting her latest "well kill me now" post which is all kinds of baffling and what) which is still favourable for us. Honestly I think it is extremely unlikely that both of them are Town, on top of this them both looking horrible lets us get some people to make definite stances, which we haven't really had anyone do on other than D4: there was a bit of it D1, D2 the choice was painfully obvious, D3 the choice was so obvious that the day ended early, and D5...the less said about D5 the better. Given LYLO is coming up soon forcing people to make some stances is a lot better than creating unilateral matchups (because let's face it, in a Rou vs. UK match a good chunk of people are going to steamroll anyway: so far this game has been terrible in the reasoning department), so overall I find the UK vs. Roukan matchup a bad one, as opposed to the UK vs. Kiro one which I find to be much better in a lot of ways.
As for where to put it...this choice is hard for me. I've made points about the two, but if I sat and thought about it UK's posts are probably more likely to be from a well-intended-but-thoroughly-clueless Townie than Kiro's. Then again her suicidal call here could be AtE and WIFOM...consider me willing to go either way here, and having trouble determining which of these two is actually MORE scummy.
Alex's post #183: he recommends a Tom vs. Ciato fight for D2 as early as D1, i.e. before the special Hime Star condition came into play. Considering that everything points to the mod deciding on Hime Star conditions, there really is virtually no way that Alex could have predicted the teams matchup on D2, and there is no reason why Scum would inheritly support a Scum vs. Scum matchup as early as day freaking one, to take place on day freaking two. I don't know how anyone who still thinks that Alex-Scum is a likely occurrence has somehow kept missing this. It effectively quashes the possibility that Tom's D2 move was a gambit on Scum's part completely.
UK, one more outburst like that and I will probate you from the forums. Are we clear?
Edit: The same goes for anyone slinging insults and vileness. This is a game.
Because in such a case, Scum only have 1 head (Kilga's).
Why have Alex suggest me versus you knowing that I as his scumbuddy has a decent chance of losing?
Nothing she said actually helped contribute to their pseudo-lynches.
So in reality, UK wasn't 2 for 5 at all, she was 0 for 3 on her own cases, and has since expanded that to 0 for 5 with Bard and Chaore (and 0/6 or 0/7 if you count myself and Kefit) while continuing to
and it's already won her Rou's doublevote, both of them clearing each other on nothing but gutGut <> Meta. UK being irritable and argumentative is at the very least a null tell for her. It may well even be a Town tell because she gets more irritated when she knows she has something to prove. As much as she can annoy, she still comes across to me as Town who is too emotionally involved in the game. Not that this excuses her horrible scum-hunting record, but it's enough to nudge her ahead of Kiro.
Well could you honestly extremely goddamn explain WHY it's so implausable given how many people are calling for Alex to take heads in recent days?Have gone over this multiple times. Before he knew about the D2 special challenge conditions, Alex would have lost 1 Scum for TowniePoints(TM) on Ciato and done nothing for himself. At worst, given that Ciato was not exactly playing well either, he would have been out Two Scum as of D3 with nothing to show for it. After the D2 challenge condition set in, it appears that if he is Scum, he got 1 (One) head out of it for 2 (Two) Scum dead, and the principal reason why everyone thinks he is Town is because he is playing like Town, whereas his D1/D2 actions are only serving to cast suspicion on him. Remember that this is not a normal mafia setup: the ideal course for Scum here is not the same as it is in a standard mafia setup. Scum bussing Scum is even worse here than it is otherwise, less opportunities to acquire heads, less numbers for the eventual LYLO cleanup, etc. Basically when you combine everything it leads to the fact that while Alex could have done this as a gambit, the reasons for me thinking it's implausible is that its reward is not all that great: Kefit didn't do any gambiteering and has been poked for heads almost as often, same for Kiro prior to D4 and even El Cid while he was alive! On the other hand, the loss is great: 2 Scum for 1 Townie head, or if not for the D2 challenge, 1 Scum for Possible TowniePoints(TM) on another fellow Scum. Really, not worth the trade.
Alex or Kefit? Very important.Kefit.
I'm sorry if this explanation blows as well, but at least I think Rou is TOWN, not just an amazingly coherent easy to read poster and thusly town from that.Alex: Kefit is Town because he is an amazingly coherent easy to read poster.
Now I want to swap you in with Kiro. You know one of us is town. Yet you propose town vs. scum in what is probably THE most cloudy challenge yet. How does this advantage town at all?Because I want to force out some opinions out of everyone. It is late enough in the game that this is very important/useful, not not so late that is a very dangerous move. Also, I don't know which of you is Town, just that it doesn't make any sense for you two to be on a Scumteam together from you constantly bussing Kiro.
On the one hand, you are right unilaterals this late don't provide much information. On the other, you ARE risking a scum gaining a head if you ARE town, and I'm not sure it's justified with Kiro. Then again, I know I'm town and I'm decently certain on who's scum.You know you're Town and Kiro is your second pick as Scum after Alex, not to mention you've been after him for quite some time now. So convince us that you're Town and Kiro's Scum, then this becomes strictly GOOD for you because now you're offing Scum! Unless of course you are Scum in which case this no longer applies.
Look, everyone who's not stuck their head in the ground. Let me put it this way. Kefit, Alex, Kiro, and Alice are ALL players you catch on minor tells. They don't make major scum mistakes. If my cases seem weak that's because it's THAT HARD to catch them. Yes, this is a burden of proficiency and I don't expect you to just take my word for it. But please, reread them!, draw conclusions, and please look for minor things as opposed to major acting out. More importantly look for things that don't sound like they come from townies as opposed to things a bad player would say.I am extremely baffled at this statement. Why? Because it's right. Myself and Alex are both very good Scum players, Kiro's quite experienced as well and I have no clue about Kefit but he seems like someone that'd do a good job. And yes, people like these you catch on minor tells. My issue with your Alex case?
Re Alice's #686: You lurk, that's how it goes with your playstle and I've felt you've been largely absent for everything except the Day 4 proceedings. In rereading #488, UK says she'll challenge Chaos and in #491, you ask why not Serp. Looks like a bit of a nudge to go a certain way. Even if you said you needed more of a read on Serp in #481, it feels like a bit of an interject there as UK doesn't really suggest going for Chaos since she feels she'd lose. And you also angle for Chaos to possibly go for Serp over UK in #498 and #500. All of it even when you said in #481 that Serp would probably be "a better target than Chaos but a worse one than UK" and you bumping Serp up to the top without even providing analysis of any reread you did. Where did this shift come from? Because there's nothing in between #481 and UK's challenge. It gives me the impression of giving UK a match she could win or at least avoid losing given the way people were leaning.Funny, D4 was the day I was principally absent for. In case you noticed, I didn't even slap down a vote for UK vs. Serp due to it ending before I had time for this game >_>. I've already explained why I went for Serp over Chaore, not to mention that your reasoning seems bass-ackwards at time: it would have been even easier for UK to win against Chaore at that time than Serp, not to mention why are you not blaming everyone else who voted for Serp? What is your opinion of Kefit himself, outside of his D4 Serp case, btw?
Firstly, UK, cut the incivility. You're pissing off everyone else with it, and it's not going to do anything to me, because it's impossible to make me mad over anything really. So yeah
Kefit.
Because "gut" is not enough reasoning: gut is good for catching someone of interest, but after that when you formulate a case you go back through their posts and look for evidence: what did you catch on gut anyway? Chances are it's something that can actually be used as evidence if identified in his posting structure/style/statements/motivations/etc.
Because I want to force out some opinions out of everyone. It is late enough in the game that this is very important/useful, not not so late that is a very dangerous move. Also, I don't know which of you is Town, just that it doesn't make any sense for you two to be on a Scumteam together from you constantly bussing Kiro.
You know you're Town and Kiro is your second pick as Scum after Alex, not to mention you've been after him for quite some time now. So convince us that you're Town and Kiro's Scum, then this becomes strictly GOOD for you because now you're offing Scum! Unless of course you are Scum in which case this no longer applies.
I am extremely baffled at this statement. Why? Because it's right. Myself and Alex are both very good Scum players, Kiro's quite experienced as well and I have no clue about Kefit but he seems like someone that'd do a good job. And yes, people like these you catch on minor tells. My issue with your Alex case?
It's not based on minor tells, it's based on a conspiracy theory. Take out D2 and D3 and the vast majority of your case on him completely falls apart, yet almost everything that happened on D2 and D3 was completely irrelevant.
but Kiro worries me quite a bit as well, between the whole "posting the bare minimum analysis required" and today's statements reading a bit like trying to fling crap at everything and get it to stick.
Ok, what happened to this (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=5016.msg256876#msg256876)? It was rather unqualified.
Hmm...Alex's first game post (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=5016.msg251328#msg251328) is basically fine. Early game it's obvious players were focused on the two challengers. I was hoping we'd get past that but clearly the hope was in vain. So, we know his stance that scum wants to take risks. This could be very relevant for the "masterful scum gambit" discussion. Course, he does applaud Kefit's IIoA opening post. Numbers are impressive, but what about players?
I'll note something here. Alex and Tom post almost one right (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=5016.msg254284#msg254284) after the other (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=5016.msg254291#msg254291[/url). Further, they had three hours to plan this. Perhaps it's coincidence, but it raises the probability of "masterful scum gambit" slightly, IMO.
On another note, I am growing cautiously wary of Alex - I think that the reasoning in his most recent attack on UK is quite poor and stretching of the facts at issue. Not enough to make me throw everything out and go "omg guys Alex is scum," but I'll revisit him after we get a flip from this duel.
Your most recent wall asks me to find Alex scummy because he's been acting too townie. That doesn't strike me as particularly good logic.
Dioxygen Diflouride
And where the hell is K4U? She's been horribly inactive this game, and even there she hasn't helped. This doesn't read like she usually does.*munches on his own hat*
Don't think Alice is much better in that regard. Then again, this game is weird in that lurkers are less likely to be scum because they need to get out there and win showdowns, so...
:V Told you it made sense for them to aim for "scum>town, town>amt(heads_needed+1)".
Vig was given a free charge, unlike cop, because cop can win the game by himself while vig cannot (and scum needed anti-steamroller stuff.)
Town MVP: Alex. Seriously. Uh. Obvious.
Game was... actually I think there was a good shot for either side to win, primarily through cheap role-based tactics or a town steamroller.
Townie I felt most sympathetic for: Roukanken.Uh, yay?
Didn't I nom Rou on Day 1? Of course nobody listens to confirmed players.People gave me too much credit by saying I could abuse my meta. I haven't been scum on MotK for over a year. :(
If you take a break, you won't get a chance to roll scum and be obv for us to catch you :VAnd yet my sanity will be all the better for it. I've already asked Kilga to stop me from signing up for any more games here. >_>
The only player who seemed to have nobody considering him as scum during endgame was Alice. <_<
Didn't I nom Rou on Day 1? Of course nobody listens to confirmed players.
Okay, first question. Did Jam ever mention that her power was exactly the same as K4U's?
And yet my sanity will be all the better for it. I've already asked Kilga to stop me from signing up for any more games here. >_>
If it means anything, I might end up playing the anonymous round, but only because it means I get to play a game where taking the slightest step out of my meta DOESN'T get me lynched. Honestly, we need more anonymous rounds on this board. Just look at RPGDL - Suwako's onto the right idea, IMO.
I was surprised UK thought he'd gambit that hard in Day 2 and be considered Scum by her.
I'm saying he doesn't deserve any for what he didn't, in regards to the D2 thing, and for the rest, that he didn't do as much as everyone says.
UK, I'm not going to probate/ban/whatever you. But I do think you should perhaps step away from the game for a while. That's a choice I'd like you to make for yourself.
I love how...certain other players are glossed over. I guess it's pretty easy to miss when you have someone who acts loudest. But, whatever.
Certain players have been addressed already, either on here or in private. Believe me, I know you're not the only person slinging too much mud.
Yeah, I edited that into my original statement.
I'm not pulling punches with you, UK - you are the loudest and the foulest-mouthed of our players. You're being made an example of because you deserve it the most. If you don't like that reputation, do something to change it.
Chaore, you're new at this so I'm giving you more of a pass, but Mafia is not a shouting match as it looks like you think it is. You may want to observe some more games.
Anonymous means nothing to the eyes of the blind.You're missing the point. One of the things that has screwed this community over horribly in terms of improving as players is meta. Not only because it grants an unfair advantage, but because it rewards consistently bad play. If Alice lurks, no-one thinks anything of it because it's Alice. If an anonymous account lurks, people get suspicious, and rightfully so.
Still co modding/reviewing for me, right K4? Us Kittens will show these people how a game is run! :P
I don't understand why people are arguing over MVP. Remember, in the end Mafia is a team game - one good Townie does not a good Town make.
Again, it's an environmental thing. No one in this game is Superman, we're all bounded by what's going on around us. Kefit may have been wrong a lot as an individual, but I think he did fairly well as a team player. Posts founded in logic, not contributing to chaff, didn't give very many people reason to suspect him (I think you were the only one that had him on a scum list).
Mafia's simply not a game where you gaily join hands and saunter off into a happy ending. It's a game based on paranoia, suspicion and deceit. The thrill of deceiving or the satisfaction of bringing deceit to light is what makes Mafia a fun game for most people, but it does tend to make people knock heads whenever they feel the other party is being, to put it nicely, "a little bit disagreeing".
Anyway, this was fun. I might even play in the next one.
Cid: How come you went public with your roleclaim? Like I mentioned midgame, you could have just hidden in the background, get the Day 3 kill on Ciato (which I missed, otherwise, I'd have had 2 nukes early), and then do a Cop check with no one aware at all.
If you follow these steps, people might actually bother to read your posts. God knows I just skipped over a lot of walls of unlabeled quote blocks this game. And if they bother to read your posts, they might understand your argument. And if they understand your argument, they might even agree to pursue your favored plan of action. If someone states that they don't understand your argument, then the onus is on yourself to rewrite it in a more comprehensible manner.
Also to those who thought the game was unbalanced in scum's favour - you're forgetting that we kinda lacked our nightkill. Y'know, the thing that lets us kill townies.