Author Topic: UD vs Ruro (and Mima!) - The Clash of the Titans!  (Read 32954 times)

Alfred F. Jones

  • Estamos orgullosos del Batall?n Lincoln
  • *
  • y de la lucha que hizo por Madrid
Re: UD vs Ruro - The Clash of the Titans!
« Reply #90 on: December 07, 2009, 06:24:46 PM »
For UD:

You have clearly missed the points I was trying to make. We both know that originality comes and goes; this far along into our human timeline, every "new" and "innovative" idea is just rehashed from earlier writings. As a historian, I know this full well.

That said, I cannot expect everyone in this century to read Plato's Republic. It is too long, and even I grew bored of it at times. What I can do is repackage it, put it in a context that the youth of today can understand. I cannot guarantee that all of my readers will understand that Shikieiki's inner struggles in White Rose parallel those between Socrates and Thrasymachus, but I can at least say that I have tried to get my readers to understand my own ideals concerning justice.

Are you surprised by how much I respect the lessons of the past, UD? You shouldn't be. I have stated multiple times that I adore history. History, as I see it, is one long, convoluted, sometimes painful, but ultimately redeeming love story. I do my best to try and integrate that feeling into my writing. You say I do not understand the truth? Perhaps. But I shall not stoop to low blows like you have. Accusing my readers of just trying to please me? You disappoint me, UD. I cannot see how the lessons of history, so long as they are presented in a new, innovative way to an intelligent audience, are not supporting the truth.

And perhaps I am young, but if I am right, what does my age matter?

On that note, I find it somewhat hilarious that you seem to believe popularity is equal to superior skill. Let me tell you a story of the past. I am sure you have heard of the American Civil War (or even participated in it), and I am sure you have heard of the Gettysburg Address, Lincoln's speech to the Union troops.

Setting aside all interpretations as to the true point of the war, I would like to draw your attention to a little-known speech there, the Gettysburg Address. No, not the one you know. The one by Edward Everett. Do you know him? I'm surprised you don't. He was one of the most popular orators of his time! In any case, he gave his speech. It was two hours long, and very well-written. Stylistically, it was a masterpiece, and it was praised for being well-delivered as well.

Yet, no one remembers it. Hardly anyone knows it even existed. Do you know why? Because the person who came after him gave a much shorter speech, only fourteen sentences long, and then sat back down. It was his speech that was remembered, not the long, overdone, intricate, and boring speech his predecessor had written. It is that second speech that you know today as Lincoln's Gettysburg Address.

So the next time you decide to attack me on the basis of "popularity = artistic merit", think on this. Time will prove me to be the victor in our little spar, Usually Dead. Those who respect the lessons of history shall be the ones to be remembered in turn, and those of you who believe that you can stop the world from turning and repressing new, shining talent may as well be trying to hold back the tide. We must move on, UD. I pray that you will see the light before it's too late.

Peace, bro. I'm out.

PS: I have found your signature to be offensive. Allow me to fix it.

UncertainJakutten

  • Then you should get out of the way when I tell you
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Re: UD vs Ruro - The Clash of the Titans!
« Reply #91 on: December 07, 2009, 06:35:31 PM »
Quote
UK, your thoughts: is UD a candidate for having a master and getting dom'd?  Because frankly, there's a fine line between self-effacement and getting off on suffering, and since I'd rather not try the opposite by praising UD in order to bring him down (what's to praise?  I am disappoint) and he's crossing it with a whip pointing in the wrong direction.

Anyone can get dommed given a sufficiently dominant presence. Just as anyone can dominate given a sufficiently submissive presence. As for UD, he doesn't give off a submissive presence so much as um...willfully puts himself in situations where he should be taking emotional damage. I don't know what he is, but he doesn't really register for me as far as BDSM goes. He doesn't play the submissive part very well, but he certainly seems to enjoy humiliation. I guess...whatever makes him happy :S.

At any rate, has anyone compared UD's fanfiction to that of Chris-chan's Sonichu yet?


Usually Dead

Re: UD vs Ruro - The Clash of the Titans!
« Reply #92 on: December 07, 2009, 06:38:28 PM »
Wow, Ruro. I knew you were inexperienced but I didn't expect that inexperience to devolve into outright hypocrisy.

You spend the first leg of your argument talking about how much you disdain the old in favor of the new, and then quote history to make your points? You flaunt your academic historical knowledge from a bunch of old dead guys that you just said you disregard?

And no, I never said that quality = popularity. The later does result from the former, though, and I think we both realize who has earned more honest popularity between the two of us.

When you cycle on your own arguments, what further reason do I have to humor you?

Edit: Oh, and excellent job modifying my signature. It's obvious you feel the pressure of my arguments when you resort to petty sniping tactics like abusing your mod powers.
« Last Edit: December 07, 2009, 06:47:12 PM by Usually Dead »

Mima

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Re: UD vs Ruro - The Clash of the Titans!
« Reply #93 on: December 07, 2009, 06:42:11 PM »
Come on kids, it's time you two went to bed and let the adults write something worth reading.

UD, you write 50% bible and 50% retelling. How creative does that make you? I wonder what character will appear next, I wonder who will win, I wonder who the antagonist- oh wait. We already know. Perhaps if you had half a brain you'd be able to make a plot worth reading. Sure, you were the top writer once, but only because there weren't any others!

Ruro, come on. Let's talk about a thing called Canon... Oh wait, you already know it. It's the thing you MASSACRE every second you spend writing. Your favourite characters are all stacked on one side and you've spend 1000000 millenia padding the story out when we all know the outcome. Just because you want the glory and attention you're somehow getting from a so-uncanon-it's-almost-OCs-sharing-the-same-names story doesn't mean you get to make it never ending!

I honestly cannot decide who is worse, someone who is so unoriginal they had to put ZUN's plots and a holy text into a blender or someone who is writing a Touhou story that doesn't even resemble Touhou. Don't even get me started on characters.

Hello Purvis

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Re: UD vs Ruro - The Clash of the Titans!
« Reply #94 on: December 07, 2009, 06:48:36 PM »
Anyone can get dommed given a sufficiently dominant presence. Just as anyone can dominate given a sufficiently submissive presence. As for UD, he doesn't give off a submissive presence so much as um...willfully puts himself in situations where he should be taking emotional damage. I don't know what he is, but he doesn't really register for me as far as BDSM goes. He doesn't play the submissive part very well, but he certainly seems to enjoy humiliation. I guess...whatever makes him happy :S.

At any rate, has anyone compared UD's fanfiction to that of Chris-chan's Sonichu yet?

The word you are looking for, UK, is palooka.

Menorah Jams, Pham

  • I'm allergic to sushi. Everytime I eat more than 80 sushis, I barf
  • donde esta la biblioteca
Re: UD vs Ruro - The Clash of the Titans!
« Reply #95 on: December 07, 2009, 06:49:14 PM »
Look, can we just write UD out of the MotK canon?  Ruro, how much is it gonna cost me for you to REALLY abuse your mod powers?  I have a full-time job.  Hit me with a figure.  Let's talk turkey.

Slowpoke

  • Media Analyst
Re: UD vs Ruro - The Clash of the Titans!
« Reply #96 on: December 07, 2009, 06:56:25 PM »
Ruro on the left , UD on the right



CLASH OF THE TITANS
.

Re: UD vs Ruro - The Clash of the Titans!
« Reply #97 on: December 07, 2009, 07:15:33 PM »
I'd suggest "Clash of the Tittans," but that's not something I'd actually want to see. |3

Alfred F. Jones

  • Estamos orgullosos del Batall?n Lincoln
  • *
  • y de la lucha que hizo por Madrid
Re: UD vs Ruro - The Clash of the Titans!
« Reply #98 on: December 07, 2009, 07:21:03 PM »
Hypocrisy? Really? You really have missed the point, UD. If there is anything I have learned in history, it is that there is a time for everything. A time to obey the law, a time to leave it in tatters. A time for peace, and a time to leave the earth a smoking ruin. A time to respect the lessons of history, and a time to ignore the words of history in favor of its spirit. You know more than I give you credit for; you do indeed respect the lessons of history. But you have sunk to legalism. You follow the word of the law rather than its spirit. This is not hypocrisy you see from me, it is the exercise of proper judgment to know when the time is right to listen to history or subvert it for the sake of good writing.

Speaking of good writing... Mima, Mima, Mima. You liked a dead PC-98 character so much that you named yourself after her. The idea that you, of all writers, have been drawn to this thread is simply hilarious. In fact, since I've grown bored with UD, let me take a turn with you.

Canon? What's that? Do you mean the barely fleshed-out world ZUN gives us in the games and supplementary materials? You are another prime example of following the word of a law rather than its evil spirit. Allow me to explain the approach I take to canon, that I may cut through your confusion!

I like it when Marisa says "ze".
I like it when Yuyuko eats everything in sight.
I like it when Eirin acts sweetly sinister.
I like it when Okuu is a bumbling fool.
I like it when Shikieiki is jealous of Komachi's height.
I like it when Alice gets flustered.
I like it when Yumemi does evil things in the name of SCIENCE!.
I like it when Cirno is so brain-smashingly stupid it comes right around and does make her seem like a mad genius.
I like it when Reimu gets crabby about no donations.
I like it when someone references Shinki as Alice's mom.

I don't care if that is canon or not, but I'm fairly sure that nonsense and the memetic overload it spawns is part of the appeal of Touhou. I feel that it is therefore in the spirit of Touhou to work that into my writing.

I suppose this makes me guilty of "completely disregarding the source material", which I am very much guilty of. It doesn't help that the source material in question is extremely boring to read (CoLA, CiLR come to mind). So yes, I disregard the source material and I like it.

Well, that and I don't think you should ever let the facts get in the way of a good story or of the truth. It's a paradox only if you haven't studied philosophy. For example:

Fact: Alice is not Shinki's daughter.
Truth: Shinki NEEDS a personality. She must have a mind and a heart to do her job. She must be a person. And how could a creator goddess not harbor particularly motherly feelings toward her creation?

I know that's not enough for everyone. But I really do think Shinki's character, personality, motivation-- effectively, it's better if she's Alice's mom than if she isn't. Smart, witty creators like me who write and draw for an audience they love must keep this in mind.

So yes, I massacre canon, but I do it for all the right reasons. I do know my canon, to be sure; you must know the rules before you break them, after all. In fact, the only person here who doesn't seem to know their canon is YOU, Mima. I've searched through the Wiki and ZUN's written works, and I cannot for the life of me find any mention of "Haru". The only OC I have any claim to is Sumire, and she's certainly not the main character by a long shot. No, that "honor" goes to Haru in your RiG series. Using an OC is a necessary evil in my case, but having an OC be the protagonist?! Not a chance.

It is beneath my overwhelming talent to even consider such an atrocity to be acceptable-- but clearly not for you. As I see it, it's only a matter of time before you remake Haru as a staggeringly handsome polylinguist who is a mathematical wizard, a sports all-star, with a gorgeous singing voice and plays multiple instruments, has psychic powers, and will be irresistable to the opposite sex-- or just Yuka, who knows. In any case, enjoy your OC fiction. I, on the other hand, will be busy writing the greatest epic known to the Touhou community. Call me up if you ever need a proofreader/editor/butcher.

Peace out, Mima and UD. Maybe I can get Haru to use his super awesome OC powers to get you two to see the light, both literally and figuratively.

PS: For someone who reportedly loves PC-98, I haven't seen much love of it in your writing. Not as much as mine, anyway.

Kilgamayan

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Re: UD vs Ruro - The Clash of the Titans!
« Reply #99 on: December 07, 2009, 07:35:41 PM »
Ruro, UD, I'm happy for you, and Imma let you finish, but Kilgamayan's one of the best fanfic writers of all time.
This man here knows what be up.
[22:40:12] <Drake> "guys i donwloaded esod but its not workan"
[22:40:21] <Drake> REPORTED
[22:40:25] <NaturallyOccurringChoja> PROBATED
[22:40:30] <Drake> ORGASM
[22:40:32] <NaturallyOccurringChoja> FUCK YEAH

[22:28:39] <Edible> Mafia would be a much easier game if we were playing "spot the asshole"

Mima

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Re: UD vs Ruro - The Clash of the Titans!
« Reply #100 on: December 07, 2009, 08:11:41 PM »
Ruro, Ruro, Ruro, Ruro. You speak as though Haru is not a necessary evil. How would I have captured the greatness that is Yuka's *cough*canon*cough* personality in the way I wanted if there was noone there to prompt it. Haru is never the star of the show, he's there as a witness, whenever something happens it is Yuka who steals the show. He is merely a puppet, a writer's tool or technique, terms you may be wise to take note of for the future.

Quote
it's only a matter of time before you remake Haru as a staggeringly handsome polylinguist who is a mathematical wizard, a sports all-star, with a gorgeous singing voice and plays multiple instruments, has psychic powers, and will be irresistable to the opposite sex
So basically the male version of the Sikieiki in your head? No wonder you managed to type that out so easily.

As for your taunt of lack of PC-98, you haven't seen anything yet, my dear and your admission to liking memes only shows that they influence your attitude and numb your originally, you think to think like others. You repeat what has been said, you will never truly be a writer with that.

Usually Dead

Re: UD vs Ruro - The Clash of the Titans!
« Reply #101 on: December 07, 2009, 08:59:17 PM »
You two brash headed children! Stop your pseudo-intellectual bickering this instant. You both utterly fail to realize what makes fiction worth reading, and for that I have ascended past you both and become the indisputable leader of Touhou fiction in the English-speaking community.

Ruro, you entirely miss the point of the relationship between law-givers, law-breakers, and the law-abiding. Paying attention to any aspect of mortal laws is solely what binds simpletons like you the limitations of this world. Because of that, you'll never achieve anything more. Aim at heaven, and you'll get both heaven and the material world. Aim at the material world, and you get neither. Your misguided concern over legalism or the lack thereof is an ideal example of someone who's lost all sight of the forest of life for the trees of mental conditioning.

And Mima, as for you. What gives you the right to speak up against your betters? Even this young fool Ruro is slightly better than you, with your head stuck in the past and your blindly loyal adherence to a character that no one else likes. I'm sad for you in that way, Mima. I truly am. Not only do you fall into the same fallacies that trick Ruro into the over-simplified mental model of "with the world or against it," but you cling to an element of escapism so blisteringly pathetic that, at best, people pretend to be your friends.

E-Nazrin

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Re: UD vs Ruro - The Clash of the Titans!
« Reply #102 on: December 07, 2009, 09:08:12 PM »
Drake has made the most correct post in this thread.

Also:

There was something here once. Wonder what...

Menorah Jams, Pham

  • I'm allergic to sushi. Everytime I eat more than 80 sushis, I barf
  • donde esta la biblioteca
Re: UD vs Ruro - The Clash of the Titans!
« Reply #103 on: December 07, 2009, 09:11:54 PM »
Keep this thread going, maybe UD will get caught up enough to not post anywhere else  :V

Moerin

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Re: UD vs Ruro - The Clash of the Titans!
« Reply #104 on: December 07, 2009, 09:22:44 PM »
Keep this thread going, maybe UD will get caught up enough to not post anywhere else  :V

Eheheh~
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Solais

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Re: UD vs Ruro (and Mima!) - The Clash of the Titans!
« Reply #105 on: December 07, 2009, 09:55:30 PM »
WHY THE HAET PEOPLE?

Sana

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Re: UD vs Ruro (and Mima!) - The Clash of the Titans!
« Reply #106 on: December 07, 2009, 09:57:36 PM »
WHY THE HAET PEOPLE?
This.


WHAT HAPPENED TO ALL THE LOVE IN THIS FORUM GUYS? D:

dustyjo

Re: UD vs Ruro (and Mima!) - The Clash of the Titans!
« Reply #107 on: December 07, 2009, 10:00:18 PM »
I don't hate anyone :(

Hello Purvis

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Re: UD vs Ruro (and Mima!) - The Clash of the Titans!
« Reply #108 on: December 07, 2009, 10:01:42 PM »
I don't hate anyone either. It's just really sad to see UD keep leaping off a cliff and thinking he'll fly =[

E-Nazrin

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Re: UD vs Ruro (and Mima!) - The Clash of the Titans!
« Reply #109 on: December 07, 2009, 10:05:43 PM »
WHAT HAPPENED TO ALL THE LOVE IN THIS FORUM GUYS? D:

There was something here once. Wonder what...

Alfred F. Jones

  • Estamos orgullosos del Batall?n Lincoln
  • *
  • y de la lucha que hizo por Madrid
Re: UD vs Ruro - The Clash of the Titans!
« Reply #110 on: December 07, 2009, 10:27:43 PM »
No, UD, let's go on. I was having fun teaching Mima the way of a true writer. I'll deal with you later.

Mima, you're so woefully misguided as to the true purpose of fanon. Let me tell you a story, one which you probably have some chance of understanding. It concerns two fandoms I was very much into when I was a little girl-- you probably know of them, being as old as you are. Sailor Moon and Rurouni Kenshin, both of them big in the 90's. Both of them were, and are, sprawling franchises. Rurouni Kenshin had a manga, an anime, and various OVAs. Sailor Moon had even more: a manga, an anime, a live action adaptation, a series of musicals, even an RPG for the Super Nintendo.

However, ten years later, guess which one has survived? Sailor Moon, not Rurouni Kenshin, despite the latter receiving applause from historians and writers all around the world, despite Watsuki-sensei's slightly better grasp of anatomy than Takeuchi-sensei's. (Sorry, I still call them that, it's just an old habit from days past.) And do you know why? I guess not, so I shall tell you. Sailor Moon fandom persists well into the modern era, whereas Rurouni Kenshin's has flopped. Both were high quality, but guess which one survived? The one with the strong fandom. It is my firm belief that a canon story, no matter how good (or bad) it is, will only stand the test of time if it has a strong expanded universe of fanon backing it. As such, the expanded universe of fanon deserves some respect-- and considering that your fiction is part of that fanon, you'd best pay up that respect, and soon.

Now, to transition between you and UD, let me elaborate on one more point. Mima, you are the moderator of Fanworks, and your RiG series is posted there, much like White Rose. UD has his work off-site, on his own website. UsuallyDead dot com may have plenty of hits, yes, but I think it is worth noting that there is no comment function. At no point will UD ever receive feedback on his fiction, and as such no newcomer to his site will ever see a single contrary word to his pieces. And you are no better, moderator! I have seen you, in the past, receive feedback on your works-- praise, at that! And what did you do? You locked the thread until you returned with another update! Why, you don't even seem to appreciate your audiences, either of you! As my peers of CPMC can testify, I am more than glad to elaborate, usually on IRC, why I have done this and this in my fiction. But you-- oh no, that's too troublesome for you! Your fiction is a one-way closed conduit of information, from you to your audiences; at no point do you get your readers involved. Indeed, you don't even seem to like them! How are you two supposed to write and write well if you don't even like your audience?!

On that note, my audience is always welcome to talk with me, or in people like Slowpoke's case, draw fanart. I could always draw my own, but it's nice to know that people really like my fiction. I actually like my audience, and I hope they enjoy the story I'm writing.

Ah, UD, UD. Take the log out of your own eye before criticizing the speck in mine. Shall I tell you another story, then? Since I'm so good at them. In 1843, though only 31, a certain writer was comfortably well off, thanks to such celebrated works as Oliver Twist and Nicholas Nickleby. But his most recent novel flopped, and he needed cash quick to pay off some debts. So Mr. Dickens wrote A Christmas Carol. It was entirely for capitalist, wordly reasons, and yet it was such a success that now, more than a century and a half later, we read it today.

So don't talk to me about wanting to aim for heaven and get the material world as well. It is plainly obvious that your arrogance stems from not only your ignorance of the lessons of the past, but also your myopia when it comes to the quality of your written works. You are incompetent, and worse still, you are unaware of it, and thus you hold an overly favourable view of yourself and your abilities. Not only do both you and Mima reach erroneous conclusions and make unfortunate choices, but your incompetence robs them of the metacognitive ability to realize it.

Case in point: Neither you nor Mima write comedy. Comedy is theraputic, a wonderful way to poke fun at your own foibles with wacky words and wondrous witticisms. You both carry yourselves too seriously, and your serious fiction suffers for it. The closest thing either of you have come to comedy is UD's Cherribloxically, which is not even on his main site, and reads more like the drunken regurgitus of Remixed Cherry Blossom, which can't have been hard to write anyway.

Fortunately for both of you, I am here, ready and willing to help you out. Despite your misguided barbs and accusations, I am still very clearly the better writer, and I will be more than glad to read whatever it is you write. Again, call me if you ever need a peer reviewer, and I will be more than glad to assist. I may be busy drawing Yumemi being awesome, but don't let that stop you~

Q.E.D., bitches. Peace out.

Pesco

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Re: UD vs Ruro (and Mima!) - The Clash of the Titans!
« Reply #111 on: December 07, 2009, 10:32:16 PM »
You 3 are auto-/in for Kilga's game of mafia ya'hear.

Kasu

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  • This soup has an explosive flavour!
Re: UD vs Ruro (and Mima!) - The Clash of the Titans!
« Reply #112 on: December 07, 2009, 11:15:30 PM »
CAN'T WE ALL JUST GET ALONG?!

Apparently, Thomas the Tank Engine isn't one to take crap from anyone.

Re: UD vs Ruro (and Mima!) - The Clash of the Titans!
« Reply #113 on: December 07, 2009, 11:30:15 PM »
CAN'T WE ALL JUST GET ALONG?!
But then where would the entertainment come from?

E-Nazrin

  • .... what're you looking at?
  • fuwafuwa pachipachi
Re: UD vs Ruro (and Mima!) - The Clash of the Titans!
« Reply #114 on: December 07, 2009, 11:31:47 PM »
Much more gradual changes that are not necessarily fighting.

I can't think of any good examples. But I know they exist. Toradora?
There was something here once. Wonder what...

Gpop

Re: UD vs Ruro (and Mima!) - The Clash of the Titans!
« Reply #115 on: December 07, 2009, 11:32:12 PM »
You 3 are auto-/in for Kilga's game of mafia ya'hear.

Looking at how this is going...

##Vote: UD

Kilgamayan

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  • *
  • The Real Treasure Is You
    • Let's Play Super Marisa World
Re: UD vs Ruro (and Mima!) - The Clash of the Titans!
« Reply #116 on: December 07, 2009, 11:43:42 PM »
You 3 are auto-/in for Kilga's game of mafia ya'hear.
Ruro would rather die than play Mafia.

Believe me, I've tried.
[22:40:12] <Drake> "guys i donwloaded esod but its not workan"
[22:40:21] <Drake> REPORTED
[22:40:25] <NaturallyOccurringChoja> PROBATED
[22:40:30] <Drake> ORGASM
[22:40:32] <NaturallyOccurringChoja> FUCK YEAH

[22:28:39] <Edible> Mafia would be a much easier game if we were playing "spot the asshole"

Kasu

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Re: UD vs Ruro (and Mima!) - The Clash of the Titans!
« Reply #117 on: December 07, 2009, 11:57:30 PM »
Why exactly are they even fighting in the first place?

« Last Edit: December 08, 2009, 12:01:24 AM by Kasu »

Apparently, Thomas the Tank Engine isn't one to take crap from anyone.

Gpop

Re: UD vs Ruro (and Mima!) - The Clash of the Titans!
« Reply #118 on: December 08, 2009, 12:05:52 AM »
Why exactly are they even fighting in the first place?

We're trying to pick out who's scum between the two.

Does it matter? For now just:

Usually Dead

Re: UD vs Ruro (and Mima!) - The Clash of the Titans!
« Reply #119 on: December 08, 2009, 12:20:21 AM »
Ruro, you've degraded from hypocrisy to simple shortsightedness.

You critisize my website for being too simple, for allowing for no feedback, for being just a one-way directional from me to my readers. This is all woefully, blatantly.... misdirected.

First off, Ruro, do you have a website? Do you spend $100 per year of your own money to host your writings somewhere separate and dedicated? Who are you to talk about picking the speck out of my eye before removing the log from your own?

As for the website's functionality, I had to make many decisions in resource and time allocation in its design. I could spend a bunch of time learning PHP and Perl and Javascript or whatever, or I could write. And people do indeed have the chance to comment on my works. Every time a Touhou-related piece goes up, I make a corresponding thread in MoTK. People can discuss there, and I encourage them to. People can always send me email, PMs in MoTK, talk to me in IRC, or contact me via YouTube. I am not the Ivory Tower your arguments would like me to be.

You go ahead and write the comedy, Ruro. You fritter and flutter on the surface of the human psyche and never penetrate to a depth that anyone will remember more than a month from now. I, on the other hand, will be working on writings of depth that will allow for permanent, real expression of the human condition. Your shallowness wouldn't allow for that, Ruro.
« Last Edit: December 08, 2009, 01:40:32 AM by Usually Dead »