Miscellaneous Questions Thread 3 - Ask Question, Receive Answer

[Tiamat]

I guess people assume/believe it's implied/stated Shiki's the 5th judge because Shiki's referred to as the Enma in PoFV? (which is the name of the 5th judge).   Unless "Enma" can be used as a generic term (I dunno if it can or not).

[Starxsword]

Hm. I always assumed that "lesser judges" was just another term for a Yama of lesser rank. It's stated that many of them were Jizou statues that applied to the job. I always considered Eiki one of these "lesser judges" because Komachi said she was once a Jizou statue (she says so in one of the Three Faeries manga)

The article uses 2 different terms. A Yama is a judge, but a judge is not necessarily a Yama. At least that's what I'm seeing, but I am unsure. The Japanese text uses these two terms. One is 閻魔 (Yama) and the other is 官 (Judge/Imperial Officer).
This is also where my confusion is at. The Jizou statue applied for the Yama position, which according to the Ministry of Right and Wrong, there are still only 10. Which I assume is the 10 Kings, if we are to assume the Ministry of Right and Wrong is Hell.

Well, one of the 10 Kings, the 5th one, the Buddhist counterpart is Jizō Bosatsu.
This article talks about the 13 Buddhas and how they are a manifestation of the 10 Kings in a specific religious sect.

And at any rate, the Ten Kings are explicitly named in the Yama article, and none of them have Eiki's name.

Sort of. The Japanese words:

＊２　秦広王・初江王・栄帝王・五官王・閻魔王・変成王・泰山王・等王・都市王・五道転輪王の十王。

The 5th one is the relevant one, 閻魔王, King Enma. Of which is written the same as Yama. The last Kanji just means King.

Eiki is referred to as Enma-sama. Or Yama-sama, however you want to call it. The Kanji's the same.

数多い閻魔様の内の一人。
One of the many Yamas.

Regarding the Ministry of Right and Wrong, it seems reasonable to assume that they are, indeed, the ones that control Hell. I mean, they are the ones that made the move from Old Hell to New Hell; if they didn't control it, I don't see how they'd be able to make that change. It's certainly not the only thing that they do, but it's probably part of their job to control Hell's finances, the kinds of punishments people suffer, etc etc.

I would also assume so. They were able to do that and expand the Netherworld, so that should be a safe assumption.

Unless "Enma" can be used as a generic term (I dunno if it can or not).

Enma can be used as a generic term. Yama and Enma should be interchangeable as they have the same Kanji.

[Sagus]

But the reason that the Jizou statues applied in the first place was because the Ten Kings weren't enough to judge all the souls that were coming to them. I'm thinking that Yama applies to everyone that judges dead souls, and there are higher ranking yamas and lower ranking yamas. Would also explain why every Jizou statue was given jurisdiction over only the area that they watched when they were statues; there's certainly more than 10 areas with Jizou statues.

Then again, I'm unsure. It really depends if the terms "yama" and "judge" can be used as synonyms or not, in this case.

数多い閻魔様の内の一人。
One of the many Yamas.

To me, the use of "many" here indicates that there are more Yamas than just the Ten Kings, otherwise it'd just state "One of the Ten Kings". But I'm grasping at straws here, I suppose.

If Enma can be used as a generic term for Yama, then one can't really say for sure she's the 5th King. 'Sides, I'd think that, if she really was one of them, Akyuu would've explicitly said so in her article... (then again zun hardly explicitly states anything)

[Starxsword]

Then again, I'm unsure. It really depends if the terms "yama" and "judge" can be used as synonyms or not, in this case.

Well, a Yama is also a judge. But considering the article on Ministry of Right and Wrong, the article could have used lesser "yamas", but went with lesser judges and kishin chiefs instead, so I am on the side of it not being synonyms.

To me, the use of "many" here indicates that there are more Yamas than just the Ten Kings, otherwise it'd just state "One of the Ten Kings". But I'm grasping at straws here, I suppose.

That would be true. But this is also where I am confused. I am lead to believe there are only 10 Yamas in the Ministry of Right and Wrong section of the article. If that is true, then it can only mean the 10 Yamas are the 10 Kings.

If Enma can be used as a generic term for Yama, then one can't really say for sure she's the 5th King. 'Sides, I'd think that, if she really was one of them, Akyuu would've explicitly said so in her article... (then again zun hardly explicitly states anything)

Yeah, which is why I said up front there is no definite proof. But still, it should have been in Eiki's profile page for fandom trivia or something like that.

It is just that she seems to be modelled after the 5th King, her judgement can't be overturned, she is merciful, she is the one that decides where you go. That is all what the 5th king is. 5th King, being the one that looks at the judgements of the first 4 kings and making a "last judgement", so to speak.

On the 35th day following death, Enma-ō (Skt. = Yama, the 5th judge, often shown holding the Wheel-of-Life in Tibetan Tanka) makes his ruling after hearing the judgments passed down by the first four kings. Offerings by living relatives are especially important on the 35th day following death, as this is the day the defendant is sentenced by Enma to one of six realms of existence -- (1) Hell; (2) Hungry Ghosts; (3) Animals; (4) Asura; (5) Human Beings; (6) the heavenly Deva realm.

[Sagus]

It's just that the whole Jizou statue stuff makes no sense if we consider that there can only ever be 10 Yamas. What, were the old ones retiring or something? And how does just changing them solves the "too many souls to judge" problem?

Also, note that Akyuu writes: "[...]the Ten Kings called upon the most powerful of Yamas of the day [...]". This pretty much confirms that there are Yamas other than the Ten Kings. The former Jizou statues are additional yamas, the extra force they need be able to judge everyone reliably. And also, Akyuu doesn't say that there are only 10 yamas in the Ministry; she only says that the leaders of the whole thing are 10 yamas.

It is just that she seems to be modelled after the 5th King, her judgement can't be overturned, she is merciful, she is the one that decides where you go.

Those two traits you listed that I underlined are universal for all judges (Akyuu sayz: "Each trial is presided by a single judge, who will pass judgement without heeding the testimony of the deceased, and thus divide the souls towards Heaven, Hell or the Netherworld as the outcome dictates"; so they all individually decide the fate of each soul they judge, and no one but them have a say in the matter). She being merciful could be indicative of that, but, again, she was a Jizou statue. We know from Akyuu that nearly all Yamas are former Jizou, but there are still some that weren't. The Ten Kings predate the employment of Jizou as Yamas. Therefore, she can't be one of them, as they predate her as a Yama.

[Starxsword]

Akyuu that nearly all Yamas are former Jizou, but there are still some that weren't. The Ten Kings predate the employment of Jizou as Yamas. Therefore, she can't be one of them, as they predate her as a Yama.

I think you missed my point. One of the 10 Kings, the 5th one, is a Jizou statue. Yes, employment of Jizou statues happens after the 10 Kings, but that is something else.
I guess all I did was provide the link, but not the quote, here is the quote:

Thirteen Buddha are thought to have developed from the Chinese belief in ten kings of the underworld (Jū-ō 十王) who were regarded as manifestations of Ten Buddha (Jūbutsu 十仏), to whom three more Buddha were added.

This is specific to the Shingon sect of Japanese Esoteric Buddhism. The 5th one, Enma Ou, being the relevant one, correlates to Jizo Bosatsu.

What you mentioned is also interesting:

Each trial is presided by a single judge, who will pass judgement without heeding the testimony of the deceased, and thus divide the souls towards Heaven, Hell or the Netherworld as the outcome dictates

This is kind of weird, because Eiki's profile implies the opposite.

The minimum requirement of lying to her, in order to appear as a good person, is not letting her discover that lie. If discovered it is a huge deduction.

From this, the assumption is that the testimony of the deceased is indeed heard.

Also, note that Akyuu writes: "[...]the Ten Kings called upon the most powerful of Yamas of the day [...]". This pretty much confirms that there are Yamas other than the Ten Kings. The former Jizou statues are additional yamas, the extra force they need be able to judge everyone reliably.

See, but that would be a bit odd, don't you think?
That would imply there are already other Yamas other than the 10 Kings, prior to the recruitment of Jizou statues as Yamas.

Could we get someone who knows Japanese to translate that part? The meaning is kind of weird.

だが、徐々に人間の数も増え、裁判官の人手が足りなくなると、十王全てが当時最も力のあった閻魔王を名乗り、審判を一回だけに減らす事で。深刻だった人手不足を解消した。

What does this translate to? That is the Japanese equivalent text and putting it on Google translate gave me something weird.

Akyuu doesn't say that there are only 10 yamas in the Ministry; she only says that the leaders of the whole thing are 10 yamas.

No, she doesn't say there are only 10 Yamas. She simply states there are 10 Yamas. I take that as to imply that there are 10 Yamas. Anyway, looking at the text, she doesn't say 10 Yamas, she says 10 Yama Kings, the Kanji "Ou" is added to Yama.
I am unsure if that makes a difference or not, but it is there and not translated, so I wanted to clarify.

[Sungho]

It suddenly makes sense.

Not quite sure if this is correct, but it basically says that the Ten Kings impersonated Enma-o, which is the most powerful among them, to quickly pass judgments.

A confusion from not making a distinction between 閻魔王 and 閻魔様.

[cuc]

I think Sungho is about right. It's saying the Ten Kings all began to use the name of Enma-o, who was the most powerful among them at that time.

A confusion from not making a distinction between 閻魔王 and 閻魔様.

I think here, ZUN is going backwards from this linguist/folklore phenomena, to explain (with Touhou's characteristic anti-logic) why "Enma" refers both to a specific god, and to all judges.

In real life:
First there was the Hindu god Yama, who eventually became the Buddhist judge of afterlife. The concept was expanded into Ten Kings in Chinese folk religion, and one of them is named Enma.

In Touhou logic:
First there were Ten Kings, and Enma was the most powerful of them. Then to make the process more efficient, they all took on the Enma name. Later, newly appointed judges are also Enma.

[Sagus]

I think you missed my point. One of the 10 Kings, the 5th one, is a Jizou statue. Yes, employment of Jizou statues happens after the 10 Kings, but that is something else.

Ah, ok, I understand what you meant now. Yeah, that could be more indicative of her being the 5th one. I don't particularly believe in it, but I can see now where one would get the idea.

The minimum requirement of lying to her, in order to appear as a good person, is not letting her discover that lie. If discovered it is a huge deduction.
From this, the assumption is that the testimony of the deceased is indeed heard.

Since that's from her game profile, which predates PMiSS, it could be considered that this bit was retconned. Alternatively, it meant that lying to her while she's preaching about your wrongdoings while you're still alive is a bad idea.

See, but that would be a bit odd, don't you think?
That would imply there are already other Yamas other than the 10 Kings, prior to the recruitment of Jizou statues as Yamas.

I don't see why that'd be odd. It'd just mean that there were already other Yamas assisting them in the judgements. Nothing really contradicts this. Humanity then grew to a point where their numbers weren't enough to get the job done, so they needed even more Yamas.

[Starxsword]

Alternatively, it meant that lying to her while she's preaching about your wrongdoings while you're still alive is a bad idea.

From the gists of what I got, if you lie, do it right. Don't half lie.
My sense is that she will know that you are lying, because well, it is impossible to lie to her. Her ability goes beyond what Satori can do. But she is going to pretend to not know if you do it right.

Since that's from her game profile, which predates PMiSS, it could be considered that this bit was retconned.

It could, yes, but retcon is something that I don't tend to consider unless stated by the author or absolutely necessary. I would try to find another way to explain it.

I don't see why that'd be odd. It'd just mean that there were already other Yamas assisting them in the judgements. Nothing really contradicts this. Humanity then grew to a point where their numbers weren't enough to get the job done, so they needed even more Yamas.

No, I find that odd, because it meant that there were other Yamas prior to the part about employment, which doesn't make sense.

Anyway, that doesn't matter, they gave us another translation to it.

Not quite sure if this is correct, but it basically says that the Ten Kings impersonated Enma-o, which is the most powerful among them, to quickly pass judgments.

Following up on what cuc is trying to say; What is happening here is that all the judges are now doing the last judgement, instead of just Enma-o.
Normally, it would be the first 4 of the 10 kings doing some judgement, then, Enma-o goes over their judgements and makes a last judgement. So, what is happening now is that in order to speed up the process, each of the 10 kings are going to make the last judgement, instead of only Enma-o.
But even that wasn't enough, so they recruited Jizou statues to become Yamas. Each Jizou statue, I assume, would have the same authority as the 10 kings.

[Sagus]

Ok, I'm missing something here. Why do you think it doesn't make sense for there to have been Yamas other than the Ten Kings before the Jizou employment? Specially when the phrasing "[...]the Ten Kings called upon the most powerful of Yamas of the day [...]" can't really be interpreted in any way other than "the Ten Kings talked to the rest of the Yama of the day". What is your reasoning behind "the Ten Kings were the only Yama that existed before the Jizou statues were employed"?

[Starxsword]

What is your reasoning behind "the Ten Kings were the only Yama that existed before the Jizou statues were employed"?

Because in religion, not Touhou related, the 10 Yama kings are the only Yamas around. If you are a Yama, you are one of the 10 Yama kings.
Then, we have Touhou, where we get a section about more Yamas getting added. What I find odd is why have a part mentioning about adding more Yamas right after just talking about adding more Yamas?

[Sagus]

Touhou may take it's bases on myths, but  just because something is true in the original legend doesn't mean it's true in the Touhou universe as well. I mean, Tsukuyomi isn't the leader of a lunarian civilization in the original myths, for example. Using them to determinate how things work in-universe isn't really a good idea.

Also, this line "[...]the Ten Kings called upon the most powerful of Yamas of the day [...]" isn't talking about adding Yamas. They called a conference with other already existing Yamas of the time, to decide what to do.

What I'm not sure about is, considering that the Ten Kings are said to have been the only ones doing the judging back then, what exatcly was the job of these other Yamas? Assisting them or something?

[Kenchiwa]

Can you list in order the characters that appear in the full Bad Apple!! PV?

[Starxsword]

Also, this line "[...]the Ten Kings called upon the most powerful of Yamas of the day [...]" isn't talking about adding Yamas. They called a conference with other already existing Yamas of the time, to decide what to do.

What I'm not sure about is, considering that the Ten Kings are said to have been the only ones doing the judging back then, what exatcly was the job of these other Yamas? Assisting them or something?

I see what you are trying to say now. You are trying to say they were calling on existing Yamas, which did not cross my mind. But that makes even less sense.
A Yamas job is to judge the dead, so the 10 Kings can't really call on Yamas to do something they are already doing.

Touhou may take it's bases on myths, but  just because something is true in the original legend doesn't mean it's true in the Touhou universe as well. I mean, Tsukuyomi isn't the leader of a lunarian civilization in the original myths, for example. Using them to determinate how things work in-universe isn't really a good idea.

Yes, if they tell you such and such has been changed, then you take whatever is mentioned. Kind of like how in Touhou, Yamas were recruited, but this doesn't happen in myths, but that is the Touhou universe. So, in Touhou universe, we know there are Yamas that were recruited and they were Jizou statues.
But if they don't tell you, then the myth it is based on is a good guide. For example, Remilia's weaknesses, if you weren't told, you assume crosses, sunlight, wooden stake, holy water, garlic, flowing water. Since she is based on a western vampire. However, they tell you that she isn't weak to crosses and she has an additional weakness to fried soy beans. They also warn you that those weaknesses only annoy her, so it won't be fatal unlike normal vampires. So, you take these new information and modify your knowledge of vampires for the touhou universe.

What they did not say is when describing the 10 kings how there were more Yamas. At least that did not cross my mind, since I would then have to assume the other Yamas are not judging the dead, which doesn't make any sense. When I read that, my assumption was that the 10 kings recruited more Yamas to help them. And then right afterwards they talked about recruitment again, which also doesn't make any sense.

[Limian]

Can you list in order the characters that appear in the full Bad Apple!! PV?

Reimu, Marisa, Patchouli, Remilia, Sakuya, Flandre, Youmu, Yuyuko, Komachi, Eiki, Mokou, Keine + ex-Keine, Eirin, Kaguya
Lunasa + Merlin + Lyrica, Chen/Ran/Tewi/Reisen/Momiji, Sanae + Hina, Kanako + Suwako, Yukari + Tenshi, Aya, Suika, Alice, Nitori, Yuuka, Elly, Reimu + Marisa (PC-98 and Windows)

[Kenchiwa]

Reimu, Marisa, Patchouli, Remilia, Sakuya, Flandre, Youmu, Yuyuko, Komachi, Eiki, Mokou, Keine + ex-Keine, Eirin, Kaguya
Lunasa + Merlin + Lyrica, Chen/Ran/Tewi/Reisen/Momiji, Sanae + Hina, Kanako + Suwako, Yukari + Tenshi, Aya, Suika, Alice, Nitori, Yuuka, Elly, Reimu + Marisa (PC-98 and Windows)

 I'm talking about the one that plays when Nomico performs...

[Drake]

I think you missed my point. One of the 10 Kings, the 5th one, is a Jizou statue. Yes, employment of Jizou statues happens after the 10 Kings, but that is something else.

Jizou statues are modeled after the Jizou. They are representations of the deity Jizou Bosatsu. The fifth King was not a Jizou statue. The lines in the religion get really wonky here, because Jizou Bosatsu itself is not actually Enmaou either; despite being the "same", the 10 Kings of Hell are slightly separate notions from the 13 buddhist deities.
The Jizou statues themselves have also essentially split apart from their original purpose, since originally they're put up to be signs of Jizou Bosatsu helping the living and dead in some manner. However, they sort of evolved into their own thing on their own, and are much more well-known than the 10 Kings, and even the buddhist deities themselves.


Anyways, I think it's apparent by now that there's an iffy wording in the text that misled the translation.

First, there were the Ten Kings; the fifth of which was 閻魔王 Enmaou. The others were not Enma/Yama, but they were all 裁判官 judges. When the number of humans to judge became too much to handle in so many steps of judgement, 十王全てが all of the Ten Kings [subject] looked to 当時最も力のあった the most powerful (i.e. in judgement) at the time [qualifier] 閻魔王 Enmaou [object], and を名乗る impersonated them, 審判を一回だけに減らす事で to reduce the judgements to only one.

This is why they all now have the name of 閻魔 Enma/Yama.

Then the Jizou statues were appointed as new 閻魔 Yama, which are now established to be the 裁判官 judges. Now, 殆どの閻魔様は、古いお地蔵さんである nearly all Yama are old Jizou statues.

The Ten Kings at the top of the Ministry are 十人の閻魔王 the ten "Enmaou", i.e. those who are now named Enmaou. Below them are other 裁判官 judges and the kishin chiefs.
Another mistranslation now caught: このうち、裁判官までが閻魔と呼ばれるのである Among these, all up to the judges can be referred to as Enma/Yama.

裁判官 also does not refer to "lesser" judges either, just the judges. All of which are called Yama. This clears up the fact that all judges are given a region to be in charge of.

意見 also does not mean testimony, it simply means their opinion. This alleviates the problem mentioned before, since it isn't their testimony that's unheard; simply their opinion on where they should go or what deed is considered righteous or a sin, which is obvious.

The mixing of all these religious premises is all acknowledged and is why the Jizou statues are the ones being upgraded into Yama; the Jizou statues are representations of the deity whose counterpart is the King whose name the rest took on. Therefore, they all are actually called Yama. Ha.

[Clarste]

3) Does anyone know anything (apart being a male) about this Kishin cheif "Suiki" they were talking about in Touhou Ibarakasen: Wild And Horned Hermit.

The other bits of this have already been answered, but it's worth noting that we don't know he's male either. That was just a translator decision (mine actually) since unlike Japanese, it's awkward to refer to people without mentioning their gender in English. Suiki's gender is unconfirmed one way or the other. For the record though, I'm pretty sure in my translation Komachi never mentions his gender and everyone else (mostly Kasen) could therefore just be making their own assumptions. Maybe.

Or I was just a bad translator for causing this much confusion.

[jumjummju]

Okay, so I am very new and very lost right now.

Allow me to explain: I found out about Touhou on TV Tropes, and was attracted by the fact that the fandom is apparently full of yuri (which I quite like) or something. So I tried looking into it only to find Touhou has like 20-something games and a fanbase as easy to integrate into as trying to plug a USB into a disc drive.

Essentially, would someone give me/link me to a crash-course on the Touhou games and fandom? I know it's a series of bullet-hell sh'mups (which I also like), but that's it.

Could someone tell me if I should start with 6, seeing as I don't have Windows 98 for 1-5, or will the sequel skip hopelessly confuse me?
Any well-written fanfics/well-done anime, doujinshi (if I was dictating this, it'd be pronounced so wrong), etc. I should be aware of? I'll probably check it out eventually.

Thanks for your time, and your efforts in leading around a newcomer that is very, very lost.

[Starxsword]

The fifth King was not a Jizou statue. The lines in the religion get really wonky here, because Jizou Bosatsu itself is not actually Enmaou either; despite being the "same", the 10 Kings of Hell are slightly separate notions from the 13 buddhist deities.

I am taking that from this article. As I do not know the specifics of this religion (Shingon sect of Japanese Esoteric Buddhism). From the article, it looks like they are one and the same. By that, I mean for this specific sect, not for all. This is the relevant section:

Thirteen Buddha are thought to have developed from the Chinese belief in ten kings of the underworld (Jū-ō 十王) who were regarded as manifestations of Ten Buddha (Jūbutsu 十仏)

From my understanding, it meant that the 10 kings are manifestations of the 10 buddha.

But of course, this is just one sect and other sects would have it differently. The more common one is Enma-o is not Jizou Bosatsu, since Jizou Bosatsu is supposed to be the one making excuses for the judged.

[Kenchiwa]

Reimu, Marisa, Patchouli, Remilia, Sakuya, Flandre, Youmu, Yuyuko, Komachi, Eiki, Mokou, Keine + ex-Keine, Eirin, Kaguya
Lunasa + Merlin + Lyrica, Chen/Ran/Tewi/Reisen/Momiji, Sanae + Hina, Kanako + Suwako, Yukari + Tenshi, Aya, Suika, Alice, Nitori, Satori, Rin, Utsuho, Yuuka, Elly, Reimu + Marisa (PC-98 and Windows)

Fixed.

[Tengukami]

Okay, so I am very new and very lost right now.

Allow me to explain: I found out about Touhou on TV Tropes, and was attracted by the fact that the fandom is apparently full of yuri (which I quite like) or something. So I tried looking into it only to find Touhou has like 20-something games and a fanbase as easy to integrate into as trying to plug a USB into a disc drive.

Essentially, would someone give me/link me to a crash-course on the Touhou games and fandom? I know it's a series of bullet-hell sh'mups (which I also like), but that's it.

Could someone tell me if I should start with 6, seeing as I don't have Windows 98 for 1-5, or will the sequel skip hopelessly confuse me?
Any well-written fanfics/well-done anime, doujinshi (if I was dictating this, it'd be pronounced so wrong), etc. I should be aware of? I'll probably check it out eventually.

Thanks for your time, and your efforts in leading around a newcomer that is very, very lost.

1. Abandon TVTropes.

2. The main articles on the front page of the Touhou Wiki can sort you out in terms of the list of games and their requirements, the cast, official print works (including translated manga), and fanworks presented in a well-organized format.

3. Touhou 1-5 ran on PC-98; not Windows 98. They require an emulator to play.

4. I'm sure if you want some recommendations for exceptional fan works, you can make a recommendation thread on this board and folks will be happy to help.

Welcome to MotK!

[KuraiChanZ]

So anyone know a good place for Touhou doujins, english translated. Or at least some doujins. I am exhausting my resources here x(

[Drake]

I am taking that from this article. As I do not know the specifics of this religion (Shingon sect of Japanese Esoteric Buddhism). From the article, it looks like they are one and the same. By that, I mean for this specific sect, not for all. This is the relevant section:

Thirteen Buddha are thought to have developed from the Chinese belief in ten kings of the underworld (Jū-ō 十王) who were regarded as manifestations of Ten Buddha (Jūbutsu 十仏)

From my understanding, it meant that the 10 kings are manifestations of the 10 buddha.

But of course, this is just one sect and other sects would have it differently. The more common one is Enma-o is not Jizou Bosatsu, since Jizou Bosatsu is supposed to be the one making excuses for the judged.

One myth was evolved from the other and they are similar in purpose, but the myths are different and are not literally meant to be the same entities. They aren't held in the same light, at least anymore; the thirteen buddha are what people commonly see and mention. The Jizou statues are a very common sight, and have even become its own sort of charm.

[Starxsword]

One myth was evolved from the other and they are similar in purpose, but the myths are different and are not literally meant to be the same entities. They aren't held in the same light, at least anymore; the thirteen buddha are what people commonly see and mention. The Jizou statues are a very common sight, and have even become its own sort of charm.

Yeah, I understand that, but the context reference point here is the argument on whether Eiki is Enma-o or not.
The idea is Enma-o can't be a Jizou statue, because employment of such comes after. Which isn't entirely true, depending on the belief. And yes, I agree that the more common belief is that they are different.
The other point is that Enma-o is named, so therefore Eiki cannot be Enma-o.

The contention is that Eiki has everything that Enma-o is supposed to have, like mercy and authority. Her title in Phantasmagoria of Flower Viewing is Highest Judge in Paradise, while this title doesn't mean anything. Her other title, the one in Perfect Momento in Strict Sense is Supreme Judge of Hell. All of these imply that she is the 5th judge, Enma-o.


The other question is whether Yamas can order Kishin chiefs around. Since in Ministry of Right and Wrong lists them at the same rank, some would rightfully assume that the judges cannot order Kishin chiefs around. This is weird, because if you have the authority of a Yama, you should be able order anyone outside of other Yamas around.
With the new translation, I am unsure if Yamas can order Kishin chiefs around. I would think so, but maybe not.

So anyone know a good place for Touhou doujins, english translated. Or at least some doujins. I am exhausting my resources here x(

The wiki should be a good place to find some doujins.

[Drake]

I find it very difficult to believe that Enmaou used to be a statue that is meant to represent essentially themselves. Komachi does specify that the Jizou represents Jizou Bosatsu (and not Enmaou), but regardless I can't see that even being plausible. Why would ZUN even mention that Eiki used to be a Jizou statue when he'd already established that the Jizou statues were hired as new Yama, but hadn't stated that any of the Ten Kings were Jizou statues nor that Eiki was one of them, if it was indeed true.

The fact that the ten Enmaou are mentioned in one article and then Eiki's article immediately after makes no note of her being any of the Enmaou (or even any mention of Enmaou at all) makes an attempt to label her as the Enmaou pretty odd. Her having another name (i.e. Eiki Shiki) that they actually call her name makes it more odd, and her requiring the given job title of "the Yama of Xanadu" (in katakana, no less) rather than her just being called Yama or Enmaou because that's who they are, pretty much seals the deal even without all the other things. And why would this great figure handle a small magically-secluded place like Gensokyo anyways? Even if Eiki as Enmaou would judge more than just Gensokyo, surely there would be a more mention-worthy Yama that judges Gensokyo exclusively, as Eiki currently seems to.

If all of the Jizou statues are supposed to all represent Jizou Bosatsu, whose wish is to save everyone from Hell, then Eiki's traits in that regard are not special, either. It makes more sense that the Yama that used to be Jizou statues, representing Jizou Bosatsu, would all wish similarly, which would be why Eiki seems to also have a merciful nature.
Seriously everything just makes way more sense if Eiki is one of the Jizou statues mentioned.

The Yama would be able to order the Kishin because they are all Yama and hold the same authority. This is the reason why the other nine of the Ten Kings had to take the name Yama in the first place. By saying that all of the judges are called Yama, it gives them all the same authority in judgement (which is also why she can still be called the Supreme Judge of Hell). However, the Ten Kings may still be acknowledged as the top brass of the Ministry regardless of judging authority. That being said, I don't really think the Kishin chiefs are actually ordered as you seem to say, but rather they work together with the Yama in coordinating their jobs. You're making it sound like the Yama actually bosses around the Kishin chiefs, but I doubt it really works like that. I would put them at the same rank as the Yama; the main difference just being their actual job. I'm sure the Kishin are more than happy to punish those who deserve punishment and sometimes beat up some shmuck trying to cheat death.


In any case I guess I'll retranslate the appropriate articles when I have the time.

[SatorKoi57]

Does anyone know if there was ever a Touhou Smash Bros. like game?

[ToyoRai]

Does anyone know if there was ever a Touhou Smash Bros. like game?

I might not be expert on Touhou fan games, but I say no. Though I did find a MDD video of Touhou parody of SSBM intro http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IYWbnj0l0JE

[Darkness1]

Does anyone know if there was ever a Touhou Smash Bros. like game?

There is a thread like that here on motk. It isn't exactly the same, but it covers some character mods for ssb with higher quality. Graphical mods for the stages probably exists, too.

Looking at the seihou games, is there some actual canon connection between touhou and seihou or is it just some cameos which makes no sense?