Miscellaneous Questions Thread 3 - Ask Question, Receive Answer

[Sungho]

Go download the trial version of th08 from http://www16.big.or.jp/~zun/. It's a bit less than 400 lines.
http://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Imperishable_Night_Demo:_Afterword
Had no idea it was already translated in the wiki.

I actually found out that it was in the th08tr omake.txt from Yakumo Yukari's article from http://www.toho-motoneta.net/. Nifty website.

[cuc]

Thanks! You don't know how tremendously helpful this is to our Yukari research.

My own translation of the part about Yukari:

After that it's Yukari. I made her ability overlap with Reimu's, and also, made her personality similar to Reimu in that they are removed from worldly matters*. This makes her a good foil to Reimu. Such were the shady measures I took.

* 浮世離れ: Literally "distant/removed from the fleeting world", meaning a person is unfamiliar/unconcerned with worldly matters. If understood negatively, implies a lack of common sense in dealing with them. If understood positively, means a person is above such matters.

[Drake]

...I think both apply.

[Sage Ω (Ultima)]

I always wanted to know, if Satori is feared by almost all Youkai, what is the relationship between her Yuugi, Parsee, and Yamame? Wouldn't they fear her as well? Or are they apart of a small minority that doesn't fear her due to similarities in how other Youkai treat them?

[Dizzy H. "Muffin" Muffin]

I'm pretty sure that like all oni, Yuugi would profess a complete lack of any fears whatsoever. Beyond that, there's nothing in canon (as far as I know) which states that Parsee and Yamame are exceptions, so they probably do.

[cuc]

I think the question was partially brought up by Parsee and Yamame's presence in HM's Koishi stage?

All we know is Yuugi said this about the satori in the Yukari route:

そこには偉そうにしている奴らがいるんだよ
Wiki translation: "A bunch of stuck-up folks live there."

[Clarste]

Satori is described as hated even among the hated, so I think by default your average underground youkai would want to avoid her. And we have no reason to believe  that Parsee etc are exceptions.

I'm also not sure that having her show up in the stage means much. The creators were clearly trying to cram in as many characters as possible. We also see Seiga sitting next to Eiki and Komachi, which seems a bit odd given WaHH chapter 12.

[Sage Ω (Ultima)]

I think the question was partially brought up by Parsee and Yamame's presence in HM's Koishi stage?

Not really but yeah that made me think more about the situation. But I have wondered if there were a connection between them seeing as all of them are described as being hated. Well maybe not Yuugi but still.

[Starxsword]

I always wanted to know, if Satori is feared by almost all Youkai, what is the relationship between her Yuugi, Parsee, and Yamame? Wouldn't they fear her as well? Or are they apart of a small minority that doesn't fear her due to similarities in how other Youkai treat them?

Yuugi doesn't fear Satori, but Yuugi doesn't have a positive opinion on her.

I'm also not sure that having her show up in the stage means much. The creators were clearly trying to cram in as many characters as possible. We also see Seiga sitting next to Eiki and Komachi, which seems a bit odd given WaHH chapter 12.

I don't think that is too odd. Neither Eiki or Komachi have anything against Seiga. Eiki would most likely try to persuade Seiga to change her ways.

[Clarste]

I don't think that is too odd. Neither Eiki or Komachi have anything against Seiga. Eiki would most likely try to persuade Seiga to change her ways.

Last time we saw them Eiki had sent an assassin after her. And even if she wants to play nice, it's still odd to just ignore her entirely. At the very least she deserves a lecture.

[cuc]

Last time we saw them Eiki had sent an assassin after her. And even if she wants to play nice, it's still odd to just ignore her entirely. At the very least she deserves a lecture.

Who sent it depends on the hierarchy structure of the Ministry. The assassin could have been sent by someone even higher up, someone responsible for dealing with special cases like Seiga, or the judge in charge of Seiga's home province.

[Starxsword]

@cuc: I don't think anyone is higher up than Eiki as far as jurisdiction is concerned. But I do think it is possible for someone else to send an assassin. Any of the Yamas could do it, and not all of them are as merciful as Eiki as she implied in Phantasmagoria of Flower Viewing.

@Clarste: Did Eiki send an assassin after her? An assassin from Hell was sent after her, but was it sent by Eiki?
Eiki's thing is mercy, but since they are spectators, I don't think they are going to expand on background characters doing stuff, that will just distract players.

[Clarste]

Who sent it depends on the hierarchy structure of the Ministry. The assassin could have been sent by someone even higher up, someone responsible for dealing with special cases like Seiga, or the judge in charge of Seiga's home province.

I had considered that, but I don't think it makes much difference as long as they're in the same organization.

Eiki's thing is mercy, but since they are spectators, I don't think they are going to expand on background characters doing stuff, that will just distract players.

That much I can agree with, but that was kind of my point. Complex relationships are being ignored in favor of squeezing in more spectators. Therefore Parsee and Yamame's presence doesn't mean much.

[Drake]

It's like saying Orin's dance is now a canonical dance rather than just a thing they did. It really just doesn't matter at all.

[TrueShadow]

Regarding HM background characters, why is Yuugi in the human village? I thought the underground youkai weren't allowed to go out? (except Koishi, but I guess she's special)

[AnonymousPondScum]

Regarding HM background characters, why is Yuugi in the human village? I thought the underground youkai weren't allowed to go out? (except Koishi, but I guess she's special)

I think Kasen said something about the oni needing to come back to the surface at a rate of a very slow trickle somewhere in WAHH.

[Clarste]

Regarding HM background characters, why is Yuugi in the human village? I thought the underground youkai weren't allowed to go out? (except Koishi, but I guess she's special)

This is actually answered in Marisa's ending (she talks to Yuugi). Apparently they're sneaking in because all the villagers are too excited by the fights to notice. This is just an explanation for why they're in the Human Village though, not on the Surface.

Regarding that matter, after SoPM I now get the impression that the Underground youkai never had any restrictions like that in the first place. The deal that Yukari mentioned is that the Surface won't interfere with the Underground as long as the vengeful spirits are being managed. And as clarified in SoPM the Underground is where youkai go when they don't want to deal with rules. So basically it's a one-sided deal. The Surface agreed to leave them alone so they can't go down (which is why none of the youkai partners go with you in Subterranean Animism), but the Underground doesn't have any restrictions like that. They can come and go as they like, it just happens to be the case that they like it down there. Which is why they moved there.

[Imosa]

I have no problem with Seiga sitting next to Eiki and Komachi. First of all Komachi doesn't have a thing to do with assassinations, even if she was doing her job. Eiki might have personally sent an assassin after Seiga but Eiki also follows rules. Seiga just beat her centennial assassin so she can take it easy for a while, because she knows that Eiki won't send another one. As for Eiki, yeah a lecture might be in order, to everyone present.
I agree, characters were just kinda squeezed into HM, so I don't pay attention to the backgrounds much. I don't know much about Eiki but why would she even come to see a fight?

[ToyoRai]

Regarding HM background characters, why is Yuugi in the human village? I thought the underground youkai weren't allowed to go out? (except Koishi, but I guess she's special)

I though that undergorund youkais can go in and out of Former Hell and that overworld youkais cannot enter Former Hell. I mean, Orin frequently visits burial ceremonies to snatch up corpses and some other stuff I forgot about other characters

On Satori, I am pretty sure the reason why satoris are hated because they read minds. Even if a person wouldn't fear satoris, talking with them is almost impossible because they just say the things you were going to say before you can say them. So them being around Satori is no problem, its just being with Satori can be irritating.

Also Imosa, Seiga didn't as much beat the kishin as much as she escaped its graps. Of course, if outsmarting the kishin means defeating it, that works too.

[Clarste]

I guess I can't say this with certainty, but I don't think Seiga's encounter in WaHH 12 was part of the standard "every hundred years" thing that the Ministry normally does. First of all, it's always been said that Shinigami do that, and indeed people like Tenshi have actually fought shinigami every hundred years. Komachi herself says that shinigami never reap souls, and that those who do are something scarier (kishin). What this all implies to me, assuming there's no lying or retconning involved, is that shinigami normally fight hermits and celestials as a non-lethal test every hundred years, while when the Ministry really wants someone dead they send a kishin. And they really want Seiga dead.

This gibes with the fact that everyone and their mother seems to hate Seiga or at least recognize her as an evil abomination. The series is light-hearted enough to make a joke out of it, but she's literally evil. Heaven rejected her, she's called a wicked hermit, Byakuren's "Detect Evil" sensors are blaring wildly, etc. She disrupts the divine providence of samsara, uses unholy magic, etc etc. Seriously bad news. I really don't see why Heaven would suffer such a person to live if they can help it, much less "play fair" the way they do with the good hermits and only send an assassin every hundred years. And no hard feelings between attempts? Eh, samsara wasn't that important anyway.

Furthermore, she was apparently caught off-guard. You really think she wouldn't be counting the years between assassinations? I mean, she's confident but in the end she doesn't want to die. And Hell wants her to die. She's not paying the Ministry off with good deeds like Kasen is, so why exactly does Kasen need to that if they have the same standing?

[Drake]

Regarding that matter, after SoPM I now get the impression that the Underground youkai never had any restrictions like that in the first place. The deal that Yukari mentioned is that the Surface won't interfere with the Underground as long as the vengeful spirits are being managed. And as clarified in SoPM the Underground is where youkai go when they don't want to deal with rules. So basically it's a one-sided deal. The Surface agreed to leave them alone so they can't go down (which is why none of the youkai partners go with you in Subterranean Animism), but the Underground doesn't have any restrictions like that. They can come and go as they like, it just happens to be the case that they like it down there. Which is why they moved there.

That's what I figured as well. People were talking about how the underground works before and I came to the conclusion that the entrance to the underground has always been there, and the geysers appearing with vengeful spirits had nothing to do with the entrance you'd use; it's just that it was "never mentioned before", like much of Gensokyo's geography. The deal between the higher-up youkai and the underground youkai made it so that the youkai above ground wouldn't interfere with the youkai below, which is why Yukari has to send Reimu/Marisa, humans, to the underground in the stead of the youkai, who couldn't go down for unexplained reasons despite them noticing the problem in the first place. These two notions basically fixed both problems I previously had with SA's scenario. This is supported by Marisa going to and fro as she pleases, and the underground youkai going as they please, but the above-ground youkai not going underground even after the events of SA.

Re: above post:
I concur.

[cuc]

I agree with the above posts. One thing to note is that the agreement might be considered broken now, since dangerous spirits were still leaking out of the geyser last time we saw it (WaHH), while Aya and Hatate has been going down all the way to the fiery hell in DS.

[Imosa]

I guess I can't say this with certainty, but I don't think Seiga's encounter in WaHH 12 was part of the standard "every hundred years" thing that the Ministry normally does. First of all, it's always been said that Shinigami do that, and indeed people like Tenshi have actually fought shinigami every hundred years. Komachi herself says that shinigami never reap souls, and that those who do are something scarier (kishin). What this all implies to me, assuming there's no lying or retconning involved, is that shinigami normally fight hermits and celestials as a non-lethal test every hundred years, while when the Ministry really wants someone dead they send a kishin. And they really want Seiga dead.

This gibes with the fact that everyone and their mother seems to hate Seiga or at least recognize her as an evil abomination. The series is light-hearted enough to make a joke out of it, but she's literally evil. Heaven rejected her, she's called a wicked hermit, Byakuren's "Detect Evil" sensors are blaring wildly, etc. She disrupts the divine providence of samsara, uses unholy magic, etc etc. Seriously bad news. I really don't see why Heaven would suffer such a person to live if they can help it, much less "play fair" the way they do with the good hermits and only send an assassin every hundred years. And no hard feelings between attempts? Eh, samsara wasn't that important anyway.

Furthermore, she was apparently caught off-guard. You really think she wouldn't be counting the years between assassinations? I mean, she's confident but in the end she doesn't want to die. And Hell wants her to die. She's not paying the Ministry off with good deeds like Kasen is, so why exactly does Kasen need to that if they have the same standing?

Hold on, Shinigami don't reap souls, Kishin do. As far as I can tell, Kishin are completely different from Shinigami, being a type if Oni. When has it ever been mentioned that shinigami attack anything? Also, the centennial fights between Kishin and Hermits/Celestials are far from non-lethal. They are, like, the most lethal fights in the series, seeing as the Kishin is meant to be an assassin.
Seems to me like people want the "good hermits" dead too. Everyone is extending their life and that's wrong. As for "playing fair", just because someone is evil doesn't mean they fall outside of expected parameters. If heaven has an organized and robust system in place, they can deal with a threat like... evil.
You really think the Kishin doesn't wait for an opportune moment to attack? It doesn't have to walk up an introduce itself. Besides, I never thought that the time between attacks was 100 years to the moment, it's just a rule of thumb, that a kishin will attack about once every hundred years.

[CyberAngel]

Hold on, Shinigami don't reap souls, Kishin do. As far as I can tell, Kishin are completely different from Shinigami, being a type if Oni. When has it ever been mentioned that shinigami attack anything? Also, the centennial fights between Kishin and Hermits/Celestials are far from non-lethal. They are, like, the most lethal fights in the series, seeing as the Kishin is meant to be an assassin.

When Tenshi fought Komachi in the latter's SWR storyline, she was talking about fights with shinigami. Kishin was a big reveal in that WaHH chapter, coming from Komachi herself (to Kasen, no less). What Clarste said is absolutely true.

[Hatateru]

Apologies beforehand for quoting TvTropes, but I've read somewhere in there that due to a certain fan theory, Ten Desires may have been able to connect to every Windows game in one go. Any idea what is that theory?

[CyberAngel]

Apologies beforehand for quoting TvTropes, but I've read somewhere in there that due to a certain fan theory, Ten Desires may have been able to connect to every Windows game in one go. Any idea what is that theory?

This is actually by Word of ZUN.

[Imosa]

When Tenshi fought Komachi in the latter's SWR storyline, she was talking about fights with shinigami. Kishin was a big reveal in that WaHH chapter, coming from Komachi herself (to Kasen, no less). What Clarste said is absolutely true.

Maybe someone can restate what Clarste said because it's not very clear to me. Let me start with this question. So Shinigami hunt good hermits ever ~100 years, but not to kill them? If yes, and if that is supported by the time in WaHH when Komachi says Shinigami don't kill people (or something to that effect), and that Tenshi says she has fought Shinigami. How does that work with when Komachi tells Tenshi that she's not one of the Shinigami who claim souls?

[CyberAngel]

So Shinigami hunt good hermits ever ~100 years, but not to kill them?

Going by the main official source on the matter, hermits are hunted by assassins from Hell. From what we can see in other sources, those can be either shinigami or kishin. We can't say any better than that.

How does that work with when Komachi tells Tenshi that she's not one of the Shinigami who claim souls?

Her reaction is just "Oh wow, a different shinigami? This is fun, let's fight!" She gets defeated, but survives just fine.

[Sagus]

The way I understood it, shinigami specialized in collecting souls (which are different from shinigami ferryman) are the norm, while kishin are used in special cases. And Seiga's certainly a special case; not only is she eeeeeeeevil, but also far older than normal for a hermit (going by what Akyuu says in her profile), and therefore, probably more powerful.

[Imosa]

Going by the main official source on the matter, hermits are hunted by assassins from Hell. From what we can see in other sources, those can be either shinigami or kishin. We can't say any better than that.

Her reaction is just "Oh wow, a different shinigami? This is fun, let's fight!" She gets defeated, but survives just fine.

So PMiSS is interesting. On one hand Akyuu (unless stated otherwise) could be like a majority of people and think Shinigami do the actual killing; however, since I remember hearing that Akyuu actually works for Eiki between her reincarnations, she could be someone who knows the truth behind shinigami and kishin. If she uses the word "assassin", then she remains vague enough to not tell a lie while still keeping the nature of shinigami and kishin a secret.

Its true that Tenshi's reaction to the shinigami is suspicious; however, the fact that she is fine after being defeated is not. Komachi is not a reaper, ergo, she won't be killing Tenshi even if it was time for an assassin to come after her.

One idea, could a reaper shinigami be a reference to a kishin? Could we view shinigami as a job rather then a species, allowing for an oni to be both a kishin, and a shinigami.
Second idea, could hermits+celestials also be unaware that the things attacking them are not shinigami but, in fact, kishin? In reading WaHH 12, I found a bit of a problem with this idea. It seems Seiga was not surprised when she was asked if she was the one being attacked by Suiki (the kishin). While that pokes a bit of a hole in the idea, as I'd expect Seiga might be more curious to figure out that she wasn't actually fighting a shinigami, I'd like to hear other opinions.
On a tangential note, chapter 12 treats the kishin secret very strangely. Kasen is surprised when she finds out kishin are the ones that kill. However, when Kasen relays this information to Marisa, Reimu, and Nitori, none of then question why a kishin is attacking a hermit rather then a shinigami. The whole thing makes me question whats going on with this secret to begin with, and in turn question Seiga's reaction. Also, Kasen, way to casually reveal the secret of death.