Miscellaneous Questions Thread 3 - Ask Question, Receive Answer

[TrueShadow]

Not gonna participate in translation since I'm a noob in Japanese, but, the image of Miko being a chuunibyou is hilarious XD

Regarding Yuuka, I think when she was created ZUN didn't really know what direction TOuhou is going. At that time, Yuuka wasn't even a flower youkai. She's just a 'youkai'. A creepy genocidal youkai. It wasn't until PoFV that she became the 'Flower Master of the Four Seasons'.

Same with Rumia and Meiling, who don't have any specific base.

[cuc]

Yuuka's options in MS are two flowers. But other than that, from LLS all the way to Kioh-gyoku, there isn't any more flower motif to her.

[Imosa]

Rumia

Rumia was always a Youkai of darkness, now?

[Sagus]

While Yuuka does have a flower motif, she's never stated to actually be a flower youkai anywhere in canon (profiles, PMiSS, etc).

Although, of course, it's not a farfetched assumption to make.

[TrueShadow]

Rumia was always a Youkai of darkness, now?

I meant that Rumia is just a generic youkai that doesn't belong in any specific 'species'. Like Kogasa is a karakasa and Mamizou is a tanuki. Rumia is just a youkai.

[Starxsword]

While Yuuka does have a flower motif, she's never stated to actually be a flower youkai anywhere in canon (profiles, PMiSS, etc).

Her title is Flower Master of the Four Seasons and she is a youkai. So, while not a certainty, this is one of the better assumptions you can make in Touhou lore.

Personally I prefer "sage" since it evokes the sense of magic, a long life/age, and diligent training, which are all important parts of 仙人.

If either Sage or Transcendent is used to translate "sennin", it would be more helpful than Hermit. Hermit doesn't have any mystical connotations and implications of being a special title.

[OkashiiKisei]

Yuuka stuff

Yuuka's Perfect Memento profile states that her flower power is more of an extra compared to her sheer magical and physical might. Yuuka has also exhibited other, very un-flowery abilities, such as invisibility in one of LLS's endings, and Mugenkan's connection to both the Dream World and it's location in the Lake of Blood seem to suggest a degree of power over dreams and blood too (that lake had to come from somewhere, and something has to prevent it from coagulating). The dimensions of Mugenkan get thoroughly messed up during the final battle in LLS too. Is it dimensional magic, dream magic, or illusion magic? Then there's Yuuka's clone technique, light orb form and the mysterious 'ultimate magic'. All of this could indicate that Yuuka's flower abilities aren't her true power and just a 'hobby ability' she manifested. Her sheer repertoire of skills makes Yuuka look a lot like a magician. Maybe she's a particularly ancient youkai magician?
Of course, all of these skills are from PC-98, before she got defined as a flower-loving youkai, but it could be something to muse on.

[Zil]

IIRC, she's not very experienced with magic, which is why her endings in MS involve her stalking Marisa and Alice. There's probably a distinction between her innate magic abilities and Marisa and Alice's type of learned magic though. In any case I wouldn't call her a magician.

@cuc: She did use flowers in Kioh-gyoku. As far as I know, LLS was the only place where she didn't use them (though maybe you could say her final attack looks like a flower). Did she have any other appearances between LLS and PoFV?

[OkashiiKisei]

IIRC, she's not very experienced with magic, which is why her endings in MS involve her stalking Marisa and Alice. There's probably a distinction between her innate magic abilities and Marisa and Alice's type of learned magic though. In any case I wouldn't call her a magician.

@cuc: She did use flowers in Kioh-gyoku. As far as I know, LLS was the only place where she didn't use them (though maybe you could say her final attack looks like a flower). Did she have any other appearances between LLS and PoFV?

Huh, interesting. Guess she has a lot of natural abilities then, or just works things out through brute, unrefined magical power.

The pinwheels Yuuka uses in some of her LLS attacks could be interpreted as flowers too.

[Sagus]

Her title is Flower Master of the Four Seasons and she is a youkai. So, while not a certainty, this is one of the better assumptions you can make in Touhou lore.

Her title can also be said to be "Flower Master" simply because her power is making flowers bloom. It doesn't have to have anything to do with her youkai type.

PMiSS's "Youkai" entry says that there are many youkai that are unique (as in, do not belong to a species, like tengu or kappa), that many Gensokyo youkai are like that, and that they are simply referred to as "youkai" (she even compares this classification to the "others" section on a graph). After all, assigning a "youkai type" to them would be pretty meaningless, as it would imply that they're a part of a species when they are, in fact, entirely unique.

But again, if you want to call her a "flower youkai", there isn't anything inherently wrong with it. It just doesn't mean much when she's the only of her "kind" around,

[TrueShadow]

Recently ZUN hasn't introduced any kind of those unique youkai, though. So far we've only seen Rumia, Meiling, Yukari, and Yuuka, all introduced in the early Windows era (even earlier in Yuuka's case). Wonder if DDC will introduce any new 'unique' youkai. (Letty, Wriggle, Mystia, and Medicine don't count since we know what kind of youkai they are)

[Starxsword]

Her title can also be said to be "Flower Master" simply because her power is making flowers bloom. It doesn't have to have anything to do with her youkai type.

But that is what it means. If her power is to make flowers bloom, then she is a flower youkai.
And yes, she is probably the only flower youkai around, so there is no comparison. That is unless Zun decides to create another youkai with flower motif. Then, we'll have 2 flower youkais.

PMiSS's "Youkai" entry says that there are many youkai that are unique (as in, do not belong to a species, like tengu or kappa)

Tengu and Kappa are more specific youkai types with known names.

[Sagus]

But that is what it means. If her power is to make flowers bloom, then she is a flower youkai.

Not at all. Yuyuko can bring death, even when she was alive, and she wasn't/isn't a "death youkai". Flandre and Remilia have widely different powers, yet are the same kind of monster.

A character's ability does not necessarily correlate to their species, or indicates it. Remember that Akyuu describes Yuuka's abilit as being a "bonus". It's just this curious thing she can do.

Tengu and Kappa are more specific youkai types with known names.

...yes? That's exactly what I meant. Youkai can belong to a specific species, which are still classified as youkai, or not really belong to any pre-defined type, in which case they are just called "youkai" because there is no need to create a specific word for them, because they are unique.

Yuuka is not called a "flower youkai" anywhere. Neither in the games nor in any anxiliary material. I mean, come on, if there was such a thing as "flower youkai", there'd be an entry on PMiSS about it. Or at least something in Yuuka's article mentioning that she's one of them, like how Letty being a yuki-onna is mentioned in her own article.

And I'm still waiting on info about that "sukima youkai" that you claimed that Yukari was. Anything man, an entry from a mythology book, a picture, a wikipedia page even, anything. I just can't find anything related to it.

[Zil]

We've been over this.

[Starxsword]

Not at all. Yuyuko can bring death, even when she was alive, and she wasn't/isn't a "death youkai". Flandre and Remilia have widely different powers, yet are the same kind of monster.

Yuyuko is not a youkai, so whatever her powers are, it doesn't matter. Just like Sakuya is not a "time youkai", because Sakuya is not a youkai. That said, if Yuyuko and Sakuya are youkais, they would be classified as death youkai and time youkai respectively.

The thing with Vampires, Tengu and Oni is that they are specific races of the really big youkai umbrella.

Yuuka is not called a "flower youkai" anywhere. Neither in the games nor in any anxiliary material. I mean, come on, if there was such a thing as "flower youkai", there'd be an entry on PMiSS about it. Or at least something in Yuuka's article mentioning that she's one of them, like how Letty being a yuki-onna is mentioned in her own article.

A youkai is a description of what they are, as much as what they are. If Yuuka controls flowers, she is a flower youkai. If Letty controls ice, she's an ice youkai. That said, she is also a yuki-onna, which is a known named youkai. The term "Sukima" means gap, and since Yukari controls boundaries, she is a gap youkai or boundary youkai.

EDIT:

And I'm still waiting on info about that "sukima youkai" that you claimed that Yukari was. Anything man, an entry from a mythology book, a picture, a wikipedia page even, anything. I just can't find anything related to it.

Refer to this link and see if it sort of helps. It is just really terror stories about things, Sukima being one of these legends. http://www.weirdwildrealm.com/f-dark-tales-japan.html. If I can recall something I've seen about it, I'll try to mention it.

[Sagus]

Dude. Those labels are entirely meaningless.

Really, Drake's old post resolves this perfectly, so I'll just put it here again. Emphasis mine.

The thing is that everything you've been saying is more or less correct until you take an extra step and assert youkai must have a type of which it is described by, outside of "youkai". As if said "type" is actually a label of race or species. In some cases it may be, but it is often not the case; the label stems from the actual identification of species, not the other way around. A youkai that actually is a defined species such as a vampire, nekomata, phantom, kappa, oni; these are all subspecies. What you are doing is taking arbitrary labels based on a character's traits and attempting to turn it into an equivalent of a subspecies, when this is patently not the case. I was saying Alice could be called a "dollmaker youkai" because she is a dollmaker and she is a youkai; not because "dollmaker youkai" is some sort of actual identifier that goes above "youkai", and so forth. If I have to say it again, a youkai by nature can be a description of a phenomenon or tradition or tale, but is not necessarily, and in many cases is not. You can call them *label* youkai, but you cannot assert that the label extends beyond simply being a label.

Refer to this link and see if it sort of helps. It is just really terror stories about things, Sukima being one of these legends. http://www.weirdwildrealm.com/f-dark-tales-japan.html. If I can recall something I've seen about it, I'll try to mention it.

Thanks for the link! Although it seems that this "sukima" monster is a creation for the movie itself and not based on pre-existing folklore. It's a cool monster, anyway.

[cuc]

Japanese wikipedia entry for "sukima onna" gap woman:
http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E9%9A%99%E9%96%93%E5%A5%B3

Apparently it is an urban legend that may have originated in Edo era (18-19th century).

[Quukii]

Where in canon are the lines that make Yuyuko seem like a "hungry ghost"? I didn't get that impression at all from PCB. Is it just from her dialogue in Imperishable Night when she is talking about eating sparrows?

[cuc]

Her IN lines were just the beginning. She finished a bowl of dumplings like they were nothing in SSIB; in Soku's vs. mode dialogue, Sakuya wonders what would happen if she die of hunger; most recently, Youmu's and her animation loop in HM consist of Youmu feeding her riceballs.

[Drake]

needless to say that i agree with myself, thank you other people


I would like to point out that a few posts down from that I did something silly:

Magicians are youkai, and there are two types: the first type is someone who's born a magician, such as Patchouli.
[...]
Patchouli has no information on whether or not she used to be a human, or if she was somehow born a magician, so she's kind of out of the question.

:doop:

[TrueShadow]

Where in canon are the lines that make Yuyuko seem like a "hungry ghost"? I didn't get that impression at all from PCB. Is it just from her dialogue in Imperishable Night when she is talking about eating sparrows?

Her IN lines were just the beginning. She finished a bowl of dumplings like they were nothing in SSIB; in Soku's vs. mode dialogue, Sakuya wonders what would happen if she die of hunger; most recently, Youmu's and her animation loop in HM consist of Youmu feeding her riceballs.

That doesn't make her a hungry ghost, though...that just means she's a ghost that likes to eat. Hungry ghosts are creatures cursed to suffer from hunger due to their bad karma in their previous life, which is so unlike Yuyuko.

[CyberAngel]

That doesn't make her a hungry ghost, though...that just means she's a ghost that likes to eat. Hungry ghosts are creatures cursed to suffer from hunger due to their bad karma in their previous life, which is so unlike Yuyuko.

All that "hungry ghost" talk is just fandom taking things cuc named too far like they usually do. In canon it's just a running joke.

[TrueShadow]

Hey, this just crossed my mind, but isn't Shou kind of a living proof that a youkai need not to conform to its original purpose? Shou was a product of people's fear of this animal called a tiger, which they have never seen before. But Byakuren turned her into an avatar of Bishamonten instead. If she hadn't met Byakuren, Shou would've disappeared a long time ago, which isn't the case as she survived in (possibly, I'm not too sure) the Outside World for 1000 years.

[CyberAngel]

Parsee was just a "bridge princess" at first, and got her ability to manipulate jealousy with time. That's one example of that happening outside Myouren Temple group, so it's certainly possible.

[TrueShadow]

...But Parsee has nothing to do with it? She's still a hashihime, and hashihime is by nature a jealous youkai, which she still is. She just gained an ability, not changed her nature.

[Sagus]

Japanese wikipedia entry for "sukima onna" gap woman:
http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E9%9A%99%E9%96%93%E5%A5%B3

Apparently it is an urban legend that may have originated in Edo era (18-19th century).

Even with google translate, the story's pretty creepy. Thanks for the link, cuc!

Hey, this just crossed my mind, but isn't Shou kind of a living proof that a youkai need not to conform to its original purpose? Shou was a product of people's fear of this animal called a tiger, which they have never seen before. But Byakuren turned her into an avatar of Bishamonten instead. If she hadn't met Byakuren, Shou would've disappeared a long time ago, which isn't the case as she survived in (possibly, I'm not too sure) the Outside World for 1000 years.

Yeah, it seems to me that Shou (and Nazrin?) was/were in the outside world before UFO, considering that there wasn't any temple in Gensokyo other than the Hakurei Shrine for a long time (as far as we know). Shou also changed to the point where she can't even turn into her originalo beast form, according to SoPM.

Kyouko's profile in SoPM also indicates that youkai that lost their original purpose can go find a new one: "Thinking she had no other purpose in this world, she entered the priesthood". She seems to be fine now. Even started a rock band, so she's certainly not languishing.

[Drake]

Going to point out that there's a difference between a youkai losing its purpose and a youkai being forgotten and vanishing. A youkai that loses its purpose, and doesn't ever find a new purpose, ends up doing nothing. Because it does nothing, people forget about it, and in turn they disappear from existence. In reality, if a "youkai" stops doing what a "youkai" does (i.e. losing its purpose), then that "youkai" doesn't exist. But in Gensokyo they clearly have a physical body and all, so a youkai losing its purpose in itself is just a heavy hit to its being.

[aiguille]

 I am Chinese
My English is not good
But seeing some mistakes
Japanese is very close with the Chinese

UFO Stage 6 Theme - Fires of Hokkai

Hokkai = Dharmadhatu
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dharmadhatu

MOF Stage 1 Theme - Because Princess Inada Is Scolding Me

稻田=Inada=Paddy
Minoriko Aki is Paddy Princess

MOF Stage 4 Title - The Waterfall of Nine Heavens

Nine Heavens=九天=Another means by The Art of War

PCB Stage 1 Theme - Paradise ~ Deep Mountain

無何有=seeming to be and not to be
no "Paradise"

無何有の郷= from Zhuangzi - Enjoyment in Untroubled Ease
http://ctext.org/zhuangzi/enjoyment-in-untroubled-ease
何不樹之於無何有之鄉=why do you not plant it in a tract where there is nothing else
Implied meaning is "dreamlike land;illusory land;unreal land"

Letty Whiterock
http://www.toho-motoneta.net/index.php?%A5%EC%A5%C6%A5%A3%A1%A6%A5%DB%A5%EF%A5%A4%A5%C8%A5%ED%A5%C3%A5%AF
From Huainanzi
青女=Blue lady=frost and snow Goddess of Chinese legend
   
SA Stage 1 Title - The Wind Blowing From the Thankless Land

忘恩=not benediction;Not blessed
no "Thankless"

[Clarste]

In th07, 仙 was translated to 'Wizard', which isn't actually wrong. It is now translated to 'Hermit', because ZUN decided to use the word in 東方茨歌仙.

Oh, is that why we use "hermit"? I was actually kind of wondering. For the record, I think that's a terrible reason. Should we start calling Reimu a "shaman" now that ZUN calls her that in FS? Although honestly "shaman" is a better translation of miko than "hermit" is of sennin. I also noticed a similar pattern where we overuse the word "administer" or "administrator" because of Miko's theme song.

Given that none of these words are explicitly translations, their juxtaposition to the Japanese words doesn't strike me as something we should care about in the slightest. I mean, "Wild and Horned Hermit" is not and never has been a translation of 茨歌仙, so why do we need to respect it as the "official" translation of 仙?

[Drake]

I think it's less a translation/juxtaposition as it is the title very directly referencing Kasen. At least, that's what is assumed.