Thoughts on Gensokyo

[Firestorm29]

Sounds more like survival of the fittest to me or being really lucky.  I mean your trapped in a world where yokai hunt you for a living and you don't know where you are.  That means you have chances of meeting either a sweet yokai like kogasa who could help you in your journey or a dangerous yokai like Rumia.  I can understand why people wanted to leave as their first experience in gensokyo was probably most of the time being almost eaten by a yokai.  You also have to guess your way to the human village or the shrine and live out in the woods camping for survival hoping a dangerous yokai doesn't find.

As for the human village there should be a process where they're granted naturalization.  I mean if they are valued for their knowledge and if they are rare then there should be a process of naturalization.  For Sanae I believe she is a special case as she has 2 gods traveling with her.  Obviously she lives at the shrine so she wouldn't have to live at the human village and go through this process.  She is needed as she grants miracles so the human village needs her.  Most humans don't get this luxury of having travel with powerful gods so most of them are on their own with survival of the fittest.

But Sanae and company live up on Youkai mountain, not particularly easy for humans to get to and from.

[Tiamat]

When Sanae first arrived, the mountain youkai were probably too busy going "WTF?" to do anything to her.  General profile descriptions indicate that the mountain youkai were gathering more information before figuring out a plan of action regarding the newcomers that somehow just popped onto their mountain.

Um... not sure how the sequence of her life in Gensokyo was after that, and too lazy to look it up right now Although UFO was her first time she started youkai hunting as far as I can tell, so I guess she spent the previous years up to that point doing shrine maiden duties at the shrine.

[Rein]

Er, if I could interject since Sanae seems to be the designated example in this topic....I'm not sure to what extent this would be considered a point against eating someone in Gensokyo, but Sanae is technically a "living god" that became such because of faith given to her while she was on the outside, right? I don't think we can really equate her with an ordinary human even on her own.

That said, I wonder how a human who practices 'magic' in the real world would fare.

[Starxsword]

I am with the top poster on this one. Sanae is a god, so random youkai would unlikely treat her as prey.

I guess it would depend on how strong their magic is. Knowing a bit of magic or having good survival instincts will save you from youkai. Rumia might be dangerous, but she just floats around, so if you aren't stupid, she can't get you.

[Vael]

Okay, so moving from where I left off, I had figured a few things out, namely the most likely way I would get into Gensokyo is via the Yukari Express since I wasn't able to get a clear answer on whether or not I needed to be in Japan and near the Hakurei Shrine to crossover on the Road of Reconciliation. However, when I thought of Yukari taking me, I wondered why she would...since the act could drain her of quite a bit of energy, and I figured that the only answer that would make sense would have been my spiritual potential. Still, Yukari is a youkai so she doesn't think like a human, so it be any other number of reasons really.

With that said, let's move on to the next step:

========================================================================

Location
Now where would Lady Yukari drop me off?

Now, I'll be listing the known Locations and giving my $0.02 on 'em, so, here we go:

Ancient City - This seems like a fine place to die...my thanks Lady Yukari.

Bamboo Forest of the Lost - This could to me getting to Eientei or the Human Village, the problem is I won't have a way to communicate with either Mokou or any of the Eientei crew if they find me, though maybe, just maybe, they might have picked up a few other languages, they're all the most likely to know other languages including their version of English. Without running into Mokou or any of the Eientei folks, this could end with me either dying of starvation and exhaustion or as a youkai snack.

Dream Palace Great Mausoleum - Not sure about this one, would Lady Yukari even see a point to warping me into a mausoleum, especially Miko's?

Eientei - The Eternal Mansion, and like I mentioned, the most likely place where they know English, but I'm not betting on it. I'm might be an interesting guest for the Princess, if they would extend that courtesy while I try to build some kind of foundation with lessons in the local language, but this is all under the assumption that they  would allow me to stay in the first place?and I'm actually remarkably optimistic about in the first place for some reason.

Forest of Magic - I need to find Marisa's home or find a way to the Hakurei Shrine or I'm screwed at night time, if I end up there at night, well, goodbye folks it?s been real.

Great Youkai Forest ? This depends on a few factors; that I find Hina or Hina finds me, that as a goddess she can understand and communicate with me, or, as Pesco pointed out, my potential helps me to communicate with her more easily. If that bit is true, then maybe the Youkai Forest might not be so bad since quite a number of kami are living there.

Hakugyokurou - ?death. I don?t think I?ll able to survive in the Netherworld for too long, if that concern is unfounded, then I?ll hope that my efforts to communicate with Lady Yuyuko and her attendant Youmu would not lead to disaster?there is no way she can?t at the very least summon a spirit who knew English to serve as a translator and later a language teacher. By the by, I know for a fact that Lady Yuyuko?s very presence would frighten me to no other degree. I would prefer to go to the Ancient City then this option.

Hakurei Shrine ? I don?t think Reimu and I would get along without a common language, otherwise she?s just as easy-going as I am. Would the Hakurei Miko know a shortcut to universal communication? Maybe not, so I?d guess that I would most probably end up being sent across the Border into Japan without Lady Yukari?s input on the matter.

Heaven ? Not quite sure what to make of this situation, from what I read, it seems like I wouldn?t be very welcome until I attained Enlightenment. Meh, I guess that would something to do until I learn the language and convince Tenshi to visit Gensokyo again and take me with her.

Hell of Blazing Fires ? I know like heat and all, but this is a little too much.

Human Village ? Obviously, the best option I?ve got for a number of reasons; Keine is here and hopefully she might be able to teach a poor guy the local language, a small of settled outsiders might know enough English to be my guide and translator while I get a foundation to build from. While I won?t be able to do much at first thanks to my body, I should still be able to work my ass off enough to show the village I just won?t be a waste of space?well, that and I could help out Keine in the school house after I get the language down. Teaching, quite literally, runs in the family.

Kourindou ? This one?I?m gonna tie this one with the Human Village for now.

Makai ? No clue as to why Lady Yukari would be that cruel, maybe as a way to accelerate my spiritual growth since Makai?s atmosphere does help promote studies in magic. I would need to get used to the atmosphere first, which might not happen at all to be honest. Plus since demons and a goddess live there, I would think that language won?t be an issue. Still, I?d prolly die here pretty quickly. At the same time, I remember something about it being permanently sealed off?

Mayohiga ? Another interestingly well-suited choice, but the most confusing. Why would she bring me Mayohiga?

Misty Lake ? A relatively safeish area, that could lead to the SDM or the Human Village since fishermen would every so often come by to test their luck in catching the giant catfish. My prime concern would be to keep Cirno and the other fairies amused long enough for me to figure where to head next.

Moriya Shrine ? An okayish area to end up, goddesses hopefully means a lack of language barriers, or since Sanae was transplanted as well, hopefully she was a good English student. We could trade by teaching each our languages, but I?m not sure how interested she would be in that deal. Random thought here, going back to the point of my potential, would you think Suwako would jump at the chance of having a full time ?Priest??

Palace of the Earth Spirits ? Crap. Satori would prolly throw me out, plus I can?t say that mindreading trick of hers isn?t creepy. I need my privacy dammit.

Palaquin Ship / Myouren Temple ? While I might learn something from Byakuren and the crew, I don?t think I would want to stay here?not sure why yet. Since it?s near the Human Village, I?ll tie to my thoughts on the village.

Poltergeist Mansion ? This place might kill me as well, in terms of exposure and starvation, the Sisters play music, so they are forgiven for being Poltergeists.  I would probably ask for an escort to the human village?if language wasn?t a problem.

Sanzu River ? Hopefully I would find Komachi there, and if language isn?t a problem, ask her for help to get to the human village. If not, then I can wait, I am a patient man after all.

Scarlet Devil Mansion ? This place terrifies me on the same level as Hakugyokurou. I would think at least Patchouli would know English and when I was discovered after my arrival by anyone other than Flan, then I could state my case fairly clearly. Depending on whether or not the young mistress decides to keep me, I would simply go along with she decides?like I said, this places terrifies me.

Senkai ? Chilling with Miko and her crew doesn?t seem so bad until you realize the only other language they may know is Chinese?I suck at it. If Miko could hear and understand my prayers than maybe we can solve the language relatively quickly. I would stay with them if anything to learn more about Taoism, since I?m fascinated by it.

Youkai Mountain ? This is nothing but trouble, I would ask to go up to the Moriya Shrine right away. I don?t think I?ll be able to do much else without knowing the language.

============================================================

It looks like the only places best suited and safe for me to end up at would be: Eientei, the Human Village, Mayohiga, the Moriya Shrine, and Senkai.

However, from the looks of things, the most likely places I would be sent to would be: the Forest of Magic, the Great Youkai Forest, the Hakurei Shrine, the Human Village, Misty Lake, the Moriya Shrine, and the Scarlet Devil Mansion.

*phew!*

Done, and as usual, thoughts? Comments? What would you guys do given the location you would find yourself in? What are you betting on?

Oh and let?s do a vote, from the places most likely I would be sent to, where do you want me to be sent to?

============================================================

Edit:
Looks like I missed a few...go ahead and discuss any ways, I'll edit it when I'm done with my reactions to them as well.

[Error]

It seems rather likely that a good chunk of Gensokyo's residents would be able to understand multiple languages.

Another theory would be that Yukari's border hax make language barriers a non-factor.

Or neither. Who knows?

[cuc]

Well, Rinnosuke has displayed some knowledge of English, Latin and German, at least. Most residents of Gensokyo don't love learning as much as he does though.

Depending on your opinion on how 4th-wall-breaking the spell card names are, it can also be argued that the abundance of Engrish spell card names indicate everyone can use English as well as ZUN does.

I'm rereading CiLR. It's stated in Ch3 that in theory, it's possible for a person to suddenly appear in ANY location and even time, and there's no need to involve Yukari at all.

...the moon's seas are its closest points to the Earth. As a result, living things from the Earth would occasionally find their way there.

This phenomenon is called spiriting away on Earth. However, this doesn't just refer to things finding their way to the moon. It also refers to things getting lost in the past, the future, Heaven, Hell, and various other places. Long ago, Lady Yagokoro explained to us why this happens. ...

[qMyon]

Given Lady Yukari would probably want you to survive if she went to the trouble of bringing you in, you'd probably end up in the Human Village.  That, or the Hakurei Shrine just to troll Reimu, maybe?

[Vael]

Well, Rinnosuke has displayed some knowledge of English, Latin and German, at least. Most residents of Gensokyo don't love learning as much as he does though.

Depending on your opinion on how 4th-wall-breaking the spell card names are, it can also be argued that the abundance of Engrish spell card names indicate everyone can use English as well as ZUN does.

I'm rereading CiLR. It's stated in Ch3 that in theory, it's possible for a person to suddenly appear in ANY location and even time, and there's no need to involve Yukari at all.

If I remember correctly, in Oriental Sacred Place, Yukari mentioned that for something to crossover to Gensokyo it needs to be forgotten by the Outside World...it's kinda hard to be completely forgotten when you're a human being.

Given Lady Yukari would probably want you to survive if she went to the trouble of bringing you in, you'd probably end up in the Human Village.  That, or the Hakurei Shrine just to troll Reimu, maybe?

I swear, if she brought around just to make me Reimu's Shikigami, I'll...ya know, I don't know what I'd do.

[OkashiiKisei]

If I recall correctly, hanging around the Outside World's counterpart of the Hakurei Shrine may result in you tumbling into Gensokyo.

[Vael]

If I recall correctly, hanging around the Outside World's counterpart of the Hakurei Shrine may result in you tumbling into Gensokyo.

Yup, but as it stands, there's no way I can go to Japan either...this exercise is based on:

"What if I ended up there right now?"

...*groans* which I should have stated in the beginning. Right, I'm a moron.

[Power]

Well there's always going to gensokyo in your dreams.  One of the characters in  touhou goes to gensokyo that way.  Other then that I see no other way to enter it.  I heard there's also yokai forests in Japan.  They say you get lost there and people who plan on offing them selves go there.  Who knows maybe that could be the way to gensokyo or just getting lost.  There's also other spiritual places places in the world where they say you will never be seen again and that it is basically suicide to go there.  I wouldn't recommend that though as it as maybe you really will never be seen again.

Also for the language barrier I personally believe when you enter gensokyo everybody will speak english because of the side effects of entering the border.  That's my belief though if everybody does speak Japanese just get use to it and you'll speak it in maybe a couple of years.  The only problem is actually reading it but hey that's what keine is for. 

[Firestorm29]

Well there's always going to gensokyo in your dreams.  One of the characters in  touhou goes to gensokyo that way.  Other then that I see no other way to enter it.  I heard there's also yokai forests in Japan.  They say you get lost there and people who plan on offing them selves go there.  Who knows maybe that could be the way to gensokyo or just getting lost.  There's also other spiritual places places in the world where they say you will never be seen again and that it is basically suicide to go there.  I wouldn't recommend that though as it as maybe you really will never be seen again.

Also for the language barrier I personally believe when you enter gensokyo everybody will speak english because of the side effects of entering the border.  That's my belief though if everybody does speak Japanese just get use to it and you'll speak it in maybe a couple of years.  The only problem is actually reading it but hey that's what keine is for.

I think that's Maribel you're thinking of, which she's not your typical human. Her being able to see barriers and visit places like the Torifune Satellite from dreaming isn't very garden variety.

I think you can just simply get lost and wind up there, if you wind up not being seen again for awhile. I remember there being a forest near Mount Fuji that is like that.

[Hanzo K.]

That'd be Aokigahara, an infamous Suicide Site. Folks go there to off themselves. Compasses and GPS don't work there for some reason.

Truth be told, I've had an interest in exploring that place. There's just something about it that beckons to me, y'know?

[Firestorm29]

That'd be Aokigahara, an infamous Suicide Site. Folks go there to off themselves. Compasses and GPS don't work there for some reason.

Truth be told, I've had an interest in exploring that place. There's just something about it that beckons to me, y'know?

Ooh, a place that has EMF that mess with compasses? I think I do know what you are talking about, places like that sound interesting. Kinda like the Bermuda triangle.

[Hanzo K.]

Maybe we oughta gather some folks someday and go poking around in that forest. (bring plenty of water and dried meats!)
Rumor has it, there's places in there that nobody's laid eyes on before.

I'm thinking that if there's gates to Gensokyo, they may be there, ya? Plus, I just like explorin'.

[Imosa]

I'm not sure how you determine what the most likely place to end up would be.
In any case, I would imagine that if you were sent there by Yukari then she would want you to survive.

For some reason I would not be very worried about the language barrier. I dunno, I guess I feel like I will either find a reasonable person who will be patient enough to deal with me or to send me to someone else, or an insane person who would attack me regardless of what happened.

[Error]

Hmm...perhaps Aokigahara is where the Road of Reconsideration would be...
Another place to start looking would also be Lake Suwa.

[Tengukami]

For some reason I would not be very worried about the language barrier

Most Gensokyans can speak English, they're just insecure about it - it's canon.

Apparently the Hakurei Shrine is linked to an outside world equivalent, only it's run down and abandoned. So all you need to do is go to Japan and visit every abandoned shinto shrine you can find until BAM! - you're in Gensokyo. Piece of cake.

[Imosa]

Most Gensokyans can speak English, they're just insecure about it - it's canon.

Apparently the Hakurei Shrine is linked to an outside world equivalent, only it's run down and abandoned. So all you need to do is go to Japan and visit every abandoned shinto shrine you can find until BAM! - you're in Gensokyo. Piece of cake.

Well, there we go. Language barrier, solved.

Also we've been over that idea. Vael can't travel to Japan so that's not a viable method.

[Tengukami]

Well, that's too bad. I guess he could try and tempt fate by getting suicidal and wandering into the wilderness, but would you really be suicidal if it was all just an act to get into Gensokyo?

Then again, if you buy the "all possible worlds" theory of multiverses, somewhere in spacetime there is a Gensokyo. So, all you need to do is build a device powerful enough to create a wormhole going there. How hard could that be, eh?

[Hanzo K.]

Shouldn't be too hard, just need the parts, and a lot of geniuses all hammering away at the equations.
I would think it would have something to do with String Theory.

Best-Case Scenario: It works.
Worst-Case Scenario: World goes boom.

...I think it'll work. It's a one-in-a-million chance, but hey!

[Pesco]

One-in-a-million chance comes up nine-times-out-of-ten. Those are very good odds you're selling.

[cuc]

Most Gensokyans can speak English, they're just insecure about it - it's canon.

Er, is this a joke  ? That comic panel is certainly not canon.

By the way, ZUN has been twittering about his honeymoon trip (now at Germany), and he says he can speak neither English nor German. Unless he asks someone else to help, we'll probably never see Gensokyoans speak good English in canon.

Apparently the Hakurei Shrine is linked to an outside world equivalent, only it's run down and abandoned. So all you need to do is go to Japan and visit every abandoned shinto shrine you can find until BAM! - you're in Gensokyo. Piece of cake.

The idea Hakurei Shrine is abandoned is a rumor in Gensokyo. CoLA Ch11 hints at the possibility that it's very popular now.

If the shrine outside is popular, then it can't possibly be a good gateway into Gensokyo, otherwise there would be too many reports of missing people at the shrine.

[cuc]

Now, I want to talk about why I have doubts about the idea that youkai periodically come out of Gensokyo to hunt humans.

First of all, the source for this is PMiSS and PCB prologue. In PMiSS, it is a human rumor; in PCB prologue, it's from the writing the 13th Hakurei maiden, which ZUN somehow felt the need to specifically say was twisted from the truth (possibly due to this idea?). So its reliability is not guaranteed.

My argument: the originator of this idea had no real understanding of the power of modern state apparatus - which wouldn't be strange if it's some Gensokyoan who had never seen how the outside world is run. It can also be deliberatedly started to make humans fear youkai a little more.

Periodic events of human disappearance cannot possibly go unnoticed. In the modern society, the actions of every citizen can be traced. The state doesn't have enough resources to track down every scattered case of disappearance, but it CAN lock on to one person if it wants to, and if the youkai really come out that often, the number of missing people would have caught the attention of the society, no matter how cleverly the tracks are covered.

If ZUN really thinks this is possible, then the one who underestimates the modern world is him. I do think he's better than that.

I haven't even begun to take into account whether anyone in Gensokyo would be brave enough and have enough sympathy for outsiders to challenge this rule. (Periodic "harvests" would be institutionalized massacres, and completely different in nature from isolated cases of youkai preying on displaced outsiders.) The vampires? I suppose Yukari can get blood from blood banks for them.

For an actually reliable source, there is CoLA Ch11. In this chapter, Reimu and Marisa wanted to introduce Rinnosuke to Yukari. They purposely weakened the Border to drive Yukari out, and somehow caused Rinnosuke to temporarily slip out of the Border. He heard a voice saying:

“Oh, this will not do! You ended up all the way here... You shouldn't come here, because you are not human.”

The translation isn't so clear, but the speech pattern is Yukari's ("Ara dame yo..."). For all we know, Yukari may be saying non-humans shouldn't be seen among so many people outside, or talking very specifically about Rinnosuke without any indication for general rules of the Border. It can also mean that non-humans aren't allowed to leave the Border at will.

[Vael]

Again, wow, you guys certainly are teaching me quite a bit of Gensokyo Lore, thanks again. ^^

So, votes on the area that you wanna see me try to figure out how live/survive in?

=====================================================

Missing Locations:

Road of Reconsideration ? Not much of a challenge, I would either return to the outside world through its rules or get eaten.

Muenzuka ? Weak border, might capable of returning just by wishing it, but at the same time, I?m prolly safe here since the description seems to imply that Youkai avoid this place.

Road of Liminality ? I have NO idea what to make of this, tentatively linking this to the Sanzu River.

Garden of the Sun ? An interesting and nerve wrecking place to be, as long as I don?t mess with the sunflowers, I should be fine. It?s getting to the nearest outsider-friendly area that?s going to be a pain.

Giant Toad?s Pond A moderately okay area to start from, hopefully pray for protection then head up the rest of the mountain.

Nameless Hill ? Frak I?m boned with this one if I don?t leave quickly and without attracting the attention of the resident Youkai.

[Hanzo K.]

From what I understand, Yuuka's a pretty polite and nice person. So long as you treat her the same way any woman would want to be treated, that is.
With respect and kindness.

Personally, I wouldn't mind ending up in The Garden myself. It helps that I was raised to be polite and chivalrous. (That's a rare thing these days innit?)
I know it sounds crazy, but my understanding is that Yuuka's okay with people as long as they don't do anything stupid.
And heck, I remember hearing somewhere that she occasionally visits The Village for agricultural/horticultural reasons. (Might've just been some doujin though.)

Offtopic: I wonder what Yuuka thinks of Pecan Pralines..?

[Tengukami]

Er, is this a joke  ? That comic panel is certainly not canon.

Yes, it was a joke. Thought that was glaringly obvious.

The idea Hakurei Shrine is abandoned is a rumor in Gensokyo. CoLA Ch11 hints at the possibility that it's very popular now.

If the shrine outside is popular, then it can't possibly be a good gateway into Gensokyo, otherwise there would be too many reports of missing people at the shrine.

That note also says "Rinnosuke sees the outside world. Logically, he would still be near the border and this is thus the Hakurei Shrine, but this is unconfirmed, and the people there weren't speaking Japanese" so it's more likely he wasn't at the Hakurei Shrine, and possible not even in Japan.

Periodic events of human disappearance cannot possibly go unnoticed. In the modern society, the actions of every citizen can be traced. The state doesn't have enough resources to track down every scattered case of disappearance, but it CAN lock on to one person if it wants to, and if the youkai really come out that often, the number of missing people would have caught the attention of the society, no matter how cleverly the tracks are covered.

I hate to nitpick, but plenty of people disappear every day without anyone ever noticing. These are people who have no friends or family, usually. On top of this, when those with friends or family do disappear, authorities do try to track them down, but if they reach a dead end the case goes cold. If youkai were going into the outside world and wiping out hundreds or thousands of people at a time, yes, this would arouse a great deal of suspicion - but if we were talking about, say, a few dozen people per year, this would likely not be seen as anything out of the ordinary, especially if a good number of these people were cut off from society to begin with.

[cuc]

I've put forth arguments for one point, and you've put forth a counterarguments; that's all good, I have nothing to add with regards to canonicity. ZUN likes fans to come to their own conclusions, after all.

However, your post has further inspired me. I would like to talk about why for my reading of Touhou, the "harvests" doesn't fit thematically. Other people would naturally have their own reading.

Vael, sorry for this hijack!

Gensokyo is meant to be a paradise, free from the cruelty of oppression and modernity. Most of the youkai are not intentional, self-aware rebels, but they nontheless do not fit into the systems humans, Lunarians and celestials have set up. (ZUN's attitude towards the yama is more approving.)

As you said, if the youkai were to actively look for food outside of the Border, they would pick the homeless, the lonely and the weak. The problem is, if they prey on the weak, what they do would be no different from what the system has already been doing. They'll just be thugs, parasites in the system. And if the humans of Gensokyo allow massacres to go on so they can continue living their lives, then they would be truly no better than cattle.

As I said, ZUN intends his characters to be symbols of free spirit, who may still experience happiness and suffering, but never at the mercy of the system.

=============

Now, I have dragged the discussion dangerously close to invoking Godwin's law, let's talk about self-insertion. 

I think from a storyteller's point of view, an ideal starting point would not be immediately dangerous, but still takes the outsider a little walk to get to a safe spot. Let the outsider have some small adventures on the way before being relieved. So Giant Toad's Pond, the Genbu Ravine or somewhere in Magic Forest would be good. Have you heard of the radio tower?

I would say somewhere in the mountains near Kasen's home, but to do it correctly would require info from recent chapters of WaHH, which are yet to be translated, and the story of Kasen is still developing.

Also don't forget Onimaru's maps:
https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=7050.0
https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=12502.0

[Tiamat]

I personally believe the harvests are true simply because it's a requirement for the contract (which is confirmed to exist from Yukari's PoV, although admittingly it's not confirmed that its details match what Perfect Memento says).  It's already confirmed in Remilia's and Flandre's prologues that Remilia and the Scarlet Devil Mansion gets a source of humans from somewhere (Remilia's leaves open the possibility that those humans aren't killed, but Flandre's does not), and they aren't allowed to use the humans in Gensokyo for it. Therefore, their source of humans must be coming from somewhere else.  Granted, it's possible that they could simply be taking unfortunate outsiders that wander into Gensokyo as opposed to sending hunt teams out for them, I suppose....