MotK Mafioso Mafia! Over

[Kilgamayan]

Recent developments and a little bit of guilt from abandoning those that don't deserve it have me back here again.

I'm reading the Rat case and am thoroughly unimpressed. Lurkers are very much worth voting for, for reference see Meme Mafia over at the other site where 75% of the scum team was comprised of lurkers, for additional reference see every game ever where bofh was scum and survived to endgame because no one bothered placing any pressure on him whatsoever (Bamboo Forest in particular is a wonderful example of this). Lurking is a scummy thing to do because the less scum are forced to post the less bullshit they have to make up and the less info you'll have to be able to call them on it. A pure lack of posting is not necessarily scummy, but a lack of posting combined with uninspiring contributions when you DO post is most certainly scummy (in fact it's one of the scummiest behaviors out there!). Banking on potential modkills to solve lurkers for you is also bad juju, you vote for whoever you think is scummiest until they've actually been removed from the game. Bad bofh, bringing this up. You know better than that.

I cannot for the life of me read Kefit's Rat vote as anything less than an OMGUS, there's Appeal to Meta thrown in as well as attacking Rat for having multiple suspicions (with a small bit of hypocrisy thrown in by accusing Rat of leaving himself open to switch to Zent as necessary while leaving himself open to switch to Serela as necessary). Day 1 cases are Day 1 cases, it is not a Bad Thing to explore different avenues once you have trains and flips to work with (in fact, it is generally a Good Thing!). Not sure why bofh seems to think this is bad and that colors my opinion of him even with the recent delurk.

K4U could use some rope for reasons that are about as obvious as a monsoon at this point. Chaore makes me want to kneejerk fakevote him for the hypocrisy in citing attitude issues when attacking Rat back on Page 9 or 10 or so. UK I'm not touching, anything negative I would have to say about her, regardless of its logical validity, would be far too tainted by the proceedings in this topic to serve as anything more than more distraction. Perhaps this is to be revisited in later days.

I think I need to give all three of the newbies a reread as they all seem to have been accused of legitimately scummy stuff in the skims I've done. I will say that I've noticed a ton of melodramatics from Zent and this alone kinda makes me want to see him gone as well. A proper reread will have to come tomorrow, however.

Who would I not want lynched at this point? Uhh. Rat, he's been fine to me and the stuff that's been thrown at him is incredibly weak and/or from sources I'm far less inclined to trust. Roukan I guess, he's still done some suspicious stuff but SOMEONE in this bloody game has to be town and Rat's answer for him at the beginning of this day was a reasonable one (I'll admit I forgot Roukan went back to Zakeri; I thought he ended the day with his vote on Rat). Maybe huh what, I can't remember anything bad from him, but this is largely because I can't remember anything from him at all, which is probably Not A Good Thing. Hopefully I can make more sense of things real-time tomorrow. Current lynch order preference is Kefit > K4U > some bizarre bofh + newbies cloud that really needs sorting.

[Kilgamayan]

You know better than that.

You know better than that.

Wow. This was entirely unintentional.

[Carthrat]

Anyway, the reason why I'm posting this is because I'm suddenly really weirded out by Carthrat's case+vote on me. Yes, LALu is a good thing. It is also completely pointless by the time a lurker has hit the Modkill Timer(TM). So why did you make said case when I was pretty close to ModProd-levels of lurking, and kept up with it even well past that? You know better than that.

I must admit that I can only read this as "You should vote for lurkers, except when they lurk to levels sufficient enough to notice that they're lurking." It is not at all a meaningful thing to say, particularly when it is an entirely legitimate tactic to not post until you get that warning then come out with just about anything to avoid modkill (and probably lynch, too, given how towns tend to play most games.)

See Kilga for an excellent dissertation on why lurkers should be lynched.

@huh: Alice's non-persual of Furien is notable in that he had a vote on the guy and yet barely mentioned him, relatively speaking; he's doing pretty much the same thing lately since he has . His lack of a solid vote backing up his position towards the end of day 1 at a time when it was very much needed is likewise extremely suspicious. The lurking charge seals the deal.

Rifling through the remnants of Alice's posts has done nothing to alleviate my suspicions, particular the "I cannot be scum with Zent, because I could have bussed him for cred++." point raised back to UK. First, it is quite chancy for scum to bus scum on day one; if you are in fact scum with Zent and someone else who lacks solid experience, it could be seen as a preferable strategy to avoid pushing your bus in favour of getting a townie lynch. Not only that, the quality of play here is generally low and one could give Zent a reasonable shot at surviving despite his own problems. Since all you need to do to achieve it is not push Zent very hard...

The other option is of course that Zent is in fact town in this equation, in which case not wanting to be seen as a prominent hammer/being able to loudly declare "Don't look at me, I thought they were both town" as a defense is another possibly motivation. Neutrality is not really an option; furthermore, as town, you would supposedly have a far greater stake in choosing the scummier lynch and you did not demonstrate this.

Alice has also made appeals to meta and to emotion and I have no interest in logic along those lines, I could argue against him on the same terms but it is really entirely meaningless. Being drawn into things like that is, in itself, a way of generating the chaff he so claims to despise.

@Huhwaht v2.0: K4U's method of lurking compared to the others appears to have some legitimacy attached to it owing to her excuse, and thus I am intended to give her a pass over certain other key cases. I had no problem with her prior content. Furien was not lurking as much as the others whom I have mentioned, repeatedly, to date. I don't think it's right to compare them.

[Edible]

Vote Count: Vote Count Edition
NeoSerela(1):  huh♥♪!?what
Alice Margatroid(3): Carthrat, UncertainKitten, Zentillion
Carthrat(3): Kefit, Roukanken, huh what
Furienify(1): Alice Margatroid

With 11 alive, it takes 6 to lynch.  You have ~8 hours remaining.

[FinnKaenbyou]

* Rou is, for no adequately explainable reason, wearing a pair of poorly made rabbit ears.

It's times like this I wonder what Pesco would do. And the answer that comes back is inevitably 'throw caution to the wind, don't sweat the small stuff and just do whatever feels right'. Mindhax is great for when you really don't want to sit down and analyse. Less likely to make you want to throw the laptop across the room, too. -_-

About lynching lurkers: Apologies for being so willing to turn away from lynching someone who isn't talking much, but given that one of the big reasons I got Kefit lynched in Haruhi was because of his early lurking I'm willing to second-guess myself now that I'm not saying 'screw it, just do what everyone else is doing so I don't have to hang around this game'. Besides, I find active scumtells more believable than passive scumtells - i.e. it's easier for me to build a case based on what a person is doing rather than what they aren't. Carth jumped on a newb target, then dropped his case nigh-instantly to go for an easy lurker. Not analysing this game to death for the sake of avoiding an aneurysm.

Alice: I think there are plenty of aspects as to why a lot of us are getting rather annoyed at this game.
- General over-competitive atmosphere. There's almost two echelons of play here - the really good players (Kefit, Kilga, Alice) and just about everyone else in what's pretty much bottom-tier. The strong players call the weaker ones idiots, and the weaker players call the strong ones elitists. Half the reason I enjoy playing at the DL so much is that the whole roleplaying angle basically reinforces the fact that despite the difference in player skill levels, the game is supposed to be fun.
- Besides that, overly aggressive and insulting comments pretty much ensure that people have a miserable time. Obviously this is where everyone would point to UK, but I think most of us are guilty of this at times. Not much I can say on this charge other than that improving the first point will hopefully help with the second.
- A general lack of friendliness. If I had to make the comparison, it's sort of like we moved from playing casual, fun Melee to NO JOKEVOTES, NO LURKERS, WALLS OF TEXT ONLY, FINAL DESTINATION.

But that's irrelevant, and it's something to discuss postgame. As is, I'm happy with my vote on Carth unless I'm desperately needed to ensure there's any sort of lynch at all.

[Kilgamayan]

- He "dropped" his case because it was a Day 1 case. Even then he still holds to it a little bit.
- He dropped it "nigh-instantly"? He spent most of Day 1 on the guy and only came out with a new case on Day 2 (which is not at all a scumtell).
- What defines a "not easy lurker"?
- How does the "preying on an easy lurker" accusation still hold when Alice has posted a whole bunch since and Rat's vote is still there?

[FinnKaenbyou]

- All he offers is 'Zent's still a contender'. Feels too passive considering he doesn't make any effort to properly push the case.
- For, uh, not being around at the end of D1? RL circumstances could be all over the place.
- Lurkers are, by definition, easy targets, because all you need to do to incriminate them is say that they aren't contributing.
- Because his point on not moving from Furienify depends on Alice having a chance to move said vote.

Again, the idea of holding someone responsible for an omission rather than an action feels dirty to me. Unfair. Maybe I'm too lenient on lurkers, but honestly I'm at a stage where I could sit and argue with myself forever, so rather than throw myself into purgatory over it I'm going to tunnel for the sake of my sanity.
Like I said, if the majority thinks I'm in the wrong and shifts to Alice/we run reeeally low on time I'll go along mainly because no lynch helps no-one (no offense to No Lynch-tan ;_;), and if Alice DOES flip scum I'll probably turn away from Carth and look harder at Kefit. Right now, though, I'm sorry that I've lost the drive to look over everything that's being said at full-power. :<

[Kefit]

Wee, my graphics card exploded last night. I've got my laptop up and running now, so hopefully this won't be an issue anymore.

It seems like we're heading for the no lynch-tan ending. According to the walkthrough that's a Bad End, so ##Extension

Kilga: My main concern with Rat isn't that he has multiple suspicions, but rather the way in which he suddenly became the HITLER OF LURKERS and completely changed the topic of discussion AWAY from topics that could be discussed using our knowledge of yesterday's flip and the various trains in existence, i.e. the trains and counter-trains to which Zak, Zent, and Serela have all been involved with.

I'm still not seeing the Alice case, it seems largely based on lurking to me even though he's not doing that anymore. However, I am curious as to what happened to that proper case he said he would put up tomorrow.

Anyway, i gotta run to class. I hope enough people show up in the next ~4 hours to help us avoid a Bad End.

[GMOFucker: Makin' GMOs To Fuck 'Em]

Supporting an ##Extension as well. This day has been a complete mess so far and nolynch would not help.

[Kefit]

EBWOP: Oho, that's new. I thought I had like a minute to go in and fix a sentence before the edit indicator would appear. Guess not with the new forum software.

I changed "the case he said he would put up tomorrow" to "the case he said he would put up last night." The former made it's way in to the post via a sleep deprived morning brain fart.

Sorry about that, now I really have to get running to class >_>

[edible]Thanks to the magic of RC3, I have reverted it to its former brain fart nonsense.  Enjoy!  Also don't edit posts anymore [/edible]

[FinnKaenbyou]

##Extension as I run out the door.

[The ⑨th Zentillion]

##Extension

We're not getting anywhere, it looks like.

[Chaore]

##Extension

3 Hours spare. Lucky giant rabbit, Lucky.

[Edible]

edit: rofl how 2 count voet

An extension will be granted in one vote.  You have 3 hours.

[Furienify]

##Extension!

[Serela]

##Extension.

We seriously need to pick someone. People don't seem to be agreeing very well on lynching the ones that actually have a few votes on them already, and I've seen a lot of  "well there's this group of like 3~5 people I'm suspicious about" as well. At this point, I've got pretty much nothing but "HOW DO LYNCH SCUM?".

Heck, all my previous arguments were ridiculously complicated and convoluted in the first place, since I feel like if I can't make a WoT everyone is going to rip me to pieces. Rou's summed this up fairly well already.

oh Furryenify ninja hay there

[Edible]

Extension granted.

You have ~25 hours or so.

[Carthrat]

@Rou: Delurking does not exonerate prior lurking charges!

[FinnKaenbyou]

@Rou: Delurking does not exonerate prior lurking charges!

Since when has Alice not lurked here? Your lack of vote-shift point only holds if he had an opening to change said vote. If he'd posted without changing I could understand, but there's not enough evidence here to suggest it isn't just Alice not being around when the day ended.

As for Kefit, he gave me a good reason to go back to the case on you, and when he lurked the hell out of Haruhi he was Town then as well.

Yes, I'm using a meta clear. Sue me.

[Serela]

but there's not enough evidence here to suggest it isn't just Alice not being around when the day ended.

Isn't Alice's post with around 2~ hours left in the day good enough evidence that Alice was there?

[Carthrat]

Additionally, re: Kefit: I am fairly sure I highlighted several issues with Alice's recent play previously that give sufficient reason to continue voting him, particularly when put in light of his previous lurking. When put under pressure he has become exceptionally defensive and relied on several bad appeals rather than heavily pushing a case scummier than himself.

@Rou: I'd thank you not to lump in lynching lurkers with WoTs and weird jokevote crap as something to be avoided/something unfun/whatever when you make spurious emotional appeals. There is surely a limit to how much complaining about the suckiness of the game you're allowed to do.

Do you believe lynching lurkers is an invalid strategy?

Since when has Alice not lurked here? Your lack of vote-shift point only holds if he had an opening to change said vote. If he'd posted without changing I could understand, but there's not enough evidence here to suggest it isn't just Alice not being around when the day ended.

He posted three hours before deadline but didn't contribute when he basically had to, and lurked for a huge chunk of day 2 start. If that isn't intentional...

It isn't okay to use meta clears just because you know you're doing it.

[Serela]

Isn't Alice's post with around 2~ hours left in the day good enough evidence that Alice was there?

derpaderp copied the wrong URL, here's the right link

[GMOFucker: Makin' GMOs To Fuck 'Em]

Carthrat, are you dodging my question about your opinion on Kefit or did I miss a response?

[FinnKaenbyou]

Do you believe lynching lurkers is an invalid strategy?

No, but in the same way that the Prisoner's Dilemma works differently when you play it multiple times. First game you see him lurking in, Alice is dangerous. If he flips Town afterward (and he has) then lurking starts to become evident as part of his playstyle and is effectively a nulltell either way.

Is meta retarded? Yes. But if it's an excuse for me not to work as hard as I'd have to otherwise, I'll take it.

The self-vote got discussion started, so I'm not sure how much it qualifies as a point.

Furthermore, would Scum!Alice claim that he was set to vote and then deliberately not vote? I'd assume he would know such a point would get held against him the next day, so I can't see it as an action he'd make willingly. That makes it accidental and therefore a nulltell.

Like I said, my heart sort of isn't in this game anymore. Sorry I'm not fighting points to the death.

(And I couldn't come up with anything clever for the Melee joke. Again, sorry that I'm not as funny as I'd like to be. >_>)

[GMOFucker: Makin' GMOs To Fuck 'Em]

Furthermore, would Scum!Alice claim that he was set to vote and then deliberately not vote? I'd assume he would know such a point would get held against him the next day, so I can't see it as an action he'd make willingly. That makes it accidental and therefore a nulltell.

Uh, I don't even think his voting error was scummy, but what you just said comes off really awkwardly. If we're going to excuse mistakes on the basis that scum would avoid making them, why pay attention to mistakes at all? (Before somebody thinks I'm actually suggesting we ignore mistakes, HERP DERP THAT WAS A RHETORICAL QUESTION)

[FinnKaenbyou]

I simply think the mistake is too big for him to overlook. It's not the sort of mistake Alice would really make.

[GMOFucker: Makin' GMOs To Fuck 'Em]

Everybody died?

One thing about Alice, though. I'm pretty sure he said there would be a "proper case" like, last night. What happened to that? Did he just give up on us?

[Kilgamayan]

One thing about Alice, though. I'm pretty sure he said there would be a "proper case" like, last night. What happened to that? Did he just give up on us?

As long as Roukan is reasoning based on player meta, I'm surprised he hasn't noticed this, given this sort of thing is classic ScumAlice play. Hell, it JUST HAPPENED in Meme Mafia. >_>

[Kilgamayan]

I don't normally do this, but given her last active time was just two minutes ago, I would really like to hear something, anything from K4U.

More meaningful post to follow at some point. Kind of depressing that we have three people that haven't posted at all in the last 24 hours and a fourth that showed up to vote for an extension and do absolutely nothing else.

[Edible]

Vote Count: Meh Edition
Alice Margatroid(3): Carthrat, UncertainKitten, Zentillion
Carthrat(3): Kefit, Roukanken, huh what
Furienify(1): Alice Margatroid

Not voting: Furienify, Serela, Chaore, Kitten4u

With 11 alive, it takes 6 to lynch.  You have ~17 hours remaining.

Those who haven't posted in 24 hours or more will be prodded shortly.