MotK Mafioso Mafia! Over

[UncertainJakutten]

Where the hell IS K4U anyway? I meant to ask earlier but I forgot she was playing this game. That doesn't really bode well.

[Serela]

K4U has already given Real-Life reasons for not being active, correct? Can't really blame her for not posting, unless you want to say she's just lying/using it as an excuse.

[UncertainJakutten]

Oh, K4U is playing this game!

Hmm...I would like to echo Chaore's question

[?lice Bl?ckb?rn]

Why didn't you vote Zent when you claimed you've be putting your vote where your mouth is?

I'm going to take the moment to respond to this since you chose MY post. My issue is you said 'Yeah I'm going to put my mouth where my money is' and proceeded to then not only avoid doing so, but not show up again AFTER doing so. You never put your vote down and that made it impossible for your preferred lynch to occur, ensuring Zak, who is town, was the lynch.

Because Zakeri going suicidal basically decided the outcome of D1. I have stated this multiple times now.

Are you seriously using a self meta to try to clear yourself? I...don't think I often see this from you.

Poor wording - but think about it. What actually is Scummy about being on a tertiary wagon D1 when you have a Townie wagon that you can easily jump on and arouse minimal amounts of suspicion for doing so (see K4U's L-1 vote on Zak, for instance)?

As for not pushing cases harder, yes, this is self-meta to an extent. But what exactly was I supposed to do? My opinions were stated, backed up with a vote, other people saw the same issues with Furienify, yet did not vote him, etc. Come on.

The Furienfly attack feels a lot like a deflection, especially given other suspects.

How is it a deflection? Please tell me how the case is bad. I know it is not my wagon, nor the major alternating wagon to mine, i.e. Rat. That is irrelevant. It is not late enough in the day phase that votes need to be locked to these two wagons. Therefore:
If you claim that my attack on him is somehow bad, please point out what is actually wrong with my reasoning. He has active lurked through two days with minimal resistance, multiple people have asked him for an opinion and he has provided at best snarky comments and still no opinion, he has not voted for anyone yet today, and basically did not vote for anyone D1, and on top of all that, he actually claims to not be a complete noob to the game and even linked to past games he's played offside in the signups thread.

If you find issue with my reasoning, please point it out. Otherwise, how is this a point against me?

Apologies, but I'm sort of going along with Kilga's sentiment of 'this game really isn't fun anymore'. I don't have an urge to put the time in to produce long, overblown cases when the only likely response is someone pointing out how I'm wrong and insulting me while they're at it. Since I'm alive I'll still put on appearances, but really I'm not up for getting too involved with this game atm. Sorry. >_>

It embarrasses me to admit this because I love mafia for the most part, but this game is seriously on the high end of irritating for me. That plus being incredibly busy is why I've basically been lurking. I'm not even sure what about the game is making it so aggravating - I'm in another mafia game on a different site right now that's basically great fun, so yeah.

[UncertainJakutten]

You still are reformatting events. You say "Zak going suicidal at the end of D1" was a given.

How? Why were you willing to vote Zent but never did? You keep saying these things but the facts flat do not reflect them. At this point I want links supporting your point.

As I said in my post, the deflection thing is both subjective and more gut than anything. I can't demonstrably prove it.

[Furienify]

I gave my opinion. I was one of the openers of the Zentillion bandwagon. (Why are people ignoring this?) I tried to put up a case against UK but that fell apart due to misunderstanding on my part. I'm not putting up a case against you because I'm leery of lynching lurkers, considering we were potentially waiting to see if you'd just get modkilled.

At any rate, I agree (again!) with UK. ##Vote: Alice. I guess that solves your 'not voting for any today' problem, too. You say that I've never put up any cases, but you didn't make all that great a one against me.

(Also- Furien, Furienfly, Furienify, Fury, Furry, whatever, I roll with it.)

[Carthrat]

It's also pretty bad there and I guess Kefit sort of had one too. That's 5/11 players who lurk. I'm starting to see the flaws in my strategy, but somehow, I can't blame myself for them. I do think K4U is less likely scum than the others on account of that excuse she made, reads as something legitimate, her town/scumminess aside.

For the record, whilst I'm willing to listen to arguments on which lurker to lynch, I don't see why we'd consider lynching anyone else at this point in time. Offhand I still believe Alice is the scummiest amongst them, cannot re-evaluate properly for about 6-8 hours or so. But I will try to do so then.

ninja'd FIVE/SIX TIMES

furien deflection: Unknowable until we see flips. Can't take anything from it. Don't know if I want to switch lynches, don't think I do since Alice's errors are more telling.

[GMOFucker: Makin' GMOs To Fuck 'Em]

vote: furienify because the idea of furries on the internet makes me feel unsafe and insecure therefore i am obligated to antagonize them :<<<<<<<<<<<<


So uh, what's actually wrong with Alice's case? You forgot to point that out.

[GMOFucker: Makin' GMOs To Fuck 'Em]

Also, going to reread Alice now. I don't think he looks too bad atm but rereading may change my mind.

[UncertainJakutten]

Is that to me about Alice's case, HW?

As I said, it's gut and I can't point out any flaws. Furien's been bugging me as well, but probably the least of the Zent/Alice/Furien triumverate.

[Furienify]

This is for HW, as well.

How is it a deflection? Please tell me how the case is bad. I know it is not my wagon, nor the major alternating wagon to mine, i.e. Rat. That is irrelevant. It is not late enough in the day phase that votes need to be locked to these two wagons. Therefore:
If you claim that my attack on him is somehow bad, please point out what is actually wrong with my reasoning. He has active lurked through two days with minimal resistance, multiple people have asked him for an opinion and he has provided at best snarky comments and still no opinion, he has not voted for anyone yet today, and basically did not vote for anyone D1, and on top of all that, he actually claims to not be a complete noob to the game and even linked to past games he's played offside in the signups thread.

1. You've lurked two days as well, and you're just now getting some resistance for it. I've been sparring off with people from the start.
2. People have asked me my opinion, I gave it. I was on the Zentillion wagon at the beginning, after you decided to vote me for making a joke vote. Your reasoning back then was for content as well, but for all I know you could be sitting in UK's easylynch train.
3. I did vote for someone Day 1. -_- Why are people missing this. Here, the vote count. I started it all. I voted for someone Day 1 and gave a case.
4. What does this last point even have to do with anything? I'm not a total noob (does not mean I'm immune to noob mistakes, such as... misinterpreted joke votes that are somehow my fault, but ok) and upon signing up for the first time it was suggested I give evidence to that fact. And there it was!

[GMOFucker: Makin' GMOs To Fuck 'Em]

That was aimed at Furien, UK. But Rat ninja'd me so it looked odd.

[?lice Bl?ckb?rn]

You still are reformatting events. You say "Zak going suicidal at the end of D1" was a given.

At the time of my post where I claim I am going to vote Zent but don't, Zak's suicidal post is a ninja to that post and this is clearly referenced.

How? Why were you willing to vote Zent but never did? You keep saying these things but the facts flat do not reflect them. At this point I want links supporting your point.

Here, have a link: http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=5787.msg320027#msg320027
Note how the post immediately before it is Zakeri resigning to being lynched.

I gave my opinion. I was one of the openers of the Zentillion bandwagon. (Why are people ignoring this?) I tried to put up a case against UK but that fell apart due to misunderstanding on my part. I'm not putting up a case against you because I'm leery of lynching lurkers, considering we were potentially waiting to see if you'd just get modkilled.

Okay, the reasoning for it at the time was fairly scarce, but this was D1, so I will retract my suspicion of you slightly for that. It is, at the time, a valid case.

At any rate, I agree (again!) with UK. ##Vote: Alice. I guess that solves your 'not voting for any today' problem, too. You say that I've never put up any cases, but you didn't make all that great a one against me.

So, um, two questions:
A) What of UK's case on me do you agree with?
and
B) What about my case on you is not that great? Your D1 play is not entirely as bad as I had read, however, your D2 play is pretty much inexcuseable.

[Furienify]

Might as well point out that Alice is at L-1.

And from sheer paranoia I'll ##Unvote, but my case still stands.

[UncertainJakutten]

See, the post you linked merely says "Oh, you aren't even going to replace out", despite also having that REALLY awkward "time to put my vote where my mouth is" regarding Zent.

That, in my eyes, does not show me that you are considering him suicidal and that Zent is no longer a viable wagon. It feels a lot more like an "Oh that's nice, let's hope no one notices me not committing to Zent"

D2 rolls around
"Dammit"

[?lice Bl?ckb?rn]

EBWOP Not So Ninja by Furienify:

1. You've lurked two days as well, and you're just now getting some resistance for it. I've been sparring off with people from the start.

Irrelevant. You've never been under any real pressure, and most of your "sparring" was classical UK Unlimited Chaff Works-type material.

2. People have asked me my opinion, I gave it. I was on the Zentillion wagon at the beginning, after you decided to vote me for making a joke vote. Your reasoning back then was for content as well, but for all I know you could be sitting in UK's easylynch train.

Okay, so I will concede the D1 point to you. The D2 case still stands.

4. What does this last point even have to do with anything? I'm not a total noob (does not mean I'm immune to noob mistakes, such as... misinterpreted joke votes that are somehow my fault, but ok) and upon signing up for the first time it was suggested I give evidence to that fact. And there it was!

This is simply a statement against the responses of "but he's new to the game and thus we can allow him more leeway than usual" (let's face it, if Zent were any of the MoTK Mafia Regulars, he would have been turbolynched a long time ago for his play).

Anyway. I am rethinking this case. Your play has still been bad, but I'm uncertain if you're actually as Scummy as I had initially suspected. Hm.

[Furienify]

So, um, two questions:
A) What of UK's case on me do you agree with?
and
B) What about my case on you is not that great? Your D1 play is not entirely as bad as I had read, however, your D2 play is pretty much inexcuseable.

A. The deflection part, though she claims it's mostly a gut thing. I feel like I'd be the perfect person to deflect towards, in regards to both of our lurking.

B. I already pushed my D1 point, but all I can offer for D2 was that heat vs. UK prior to most of us stepping back for a day to cool down (even though the post was sorta fail, sigh). As it is, I'm drifting between her, Serela and yourself. The same wishy-washiness is the same reason I haven't produced a vote prior to this. So yeah, I'll concede this one to you. My D2 play has been suboptimal.

(Also, it's worth noting that Zentillion has mostly gone off to hide in the corner. Hm.)

[?lice Bl?ckb?rn]

See, the post you linked merely says "Oh, you aren't even going to replace out", despite also having that REALLY awkward "time to put my vote where my mouth is" regarding Zent.

Read the Zakeri post immediately above it.

Or, y'know what, I'm going to quote it here, since apparently you keep missing the blindingly obvious repeatedly despite me pointing it out to you for the past five-or-so posts:

I don't mind if the Lynch happens to be on me. A Bandwagon is a bandwagon, and since mine started pretty early, it should be much harder to hide behind the deadline excuse. I'm sure you guy'll find scum. No hard feelings.

Besides, I probably shouldn't be in this game. The threat of my internet being cut is still real, and I honestly wouldn't have joined if I had known half a week ago.

I was hoping to get some kind of reaction out of Zakeri where actually sticking around and shifting my vote would actually be worthwhile. Keep in mind that I wasn't certain of either of their alignments at the time, though I was pretty certain Zak was Town by the time he went suicidal.

That, in my eyes, does not show me that you are considering him suicidal and that Zent is no longer a viable wagon. It feels a lot more like an "Oh that's nice, let's hope no one notices me not committing to Zent"

Please tell me how, alignment-wise, this is more likely to be an actively Scummy action as opposed to one done by a combination of another player derping out, and myself being busy? I find it amusing that the person who did an awkward L-1 hop onto a Townie wagon is getting no accusations, but the person who stayed off it (thus making it HARDER to further Scum's goal of Lynching Townies(TM)) is receiving colossal amounts of accusations and hate for it.

Think a little. Seriously.

Anyway, in the interest of not generating any more chaff, this is my last reply to you, UK, about this issue. I am uncertain about my original Furienify case now and need to spend some time doing rereads and actually scumhunting, and pointless back-and-forth arguing with you is merely a waste of time in that aspect. ffs.

[UncertainJakutten]

I am thinking critiically.

I thought I clearly stated why it was scummy. Because you were covering for Zent. But you had, in a prior post, said you supported the Zent lynch.

So, you could have jumped on Zakeri, right? And then had that earlier "Ready to support a Zent lynch" post bite you in the ass. So instead you lampshaded your support with it and the Zakeri ninja basically gave you a convenient excuse to not get Zent lynched.

Rather than actively support the lynch of your scumbuddy when Zak was, in all probability, going down at that point, you quickly changed your plan.

I really hope you aren't going to seriously attempt to respond to this scenario with a "that's stupid" or similar remark, because it really isn't.

[The ⑨th Zentillion]

(Also, it's worth noting that Zentillion has mostly gone off to hide in the corner. Hm.)

Don't have anything worthy of note to say, though Alice is posting and seems to be making an okay case for himself. Just not enough to change my vote.

[?lice Bl?ckb?rn]

So, you could have jumped on Zakeri, right? And then had that earlier "Ready to support a Zent lynch" post bite you in the ass. So instead you lampshaded your support with it and the Zakeri ninja basically gave you a convenient excuse to not get Zent lynched.

Rather than actively support the lynch of your scumbuddy when Zak was, in all probability, going down at that point, you quickly changed your plan.

Okay, I know I said I wasn't going to respond to your posts on this issue from now on, but I do have to make one exception to this:
A) Zentillion is new to the game, is continuously making mistakes, and is thus ideal target for a bus. Assuming we're both Scumbuddies, I could either go the route I did, which earned me a wagon up to L-2 (and L-1 for a short period of time!) and massive amounts of suspicion, or, I could, y'know, bus him, and earn massive amounts of TowniePoints(TM) for it instead. Seriously, think a little.
B) This argument only works if Zentillion is Scum. If he is Town, then this action makes no sense of me as a Scum whatsoever. So unless you have something that clearly and unambiguously shows that Zentillion is, in fact, Townie, why are you attacking me when one of the major points for me-Scum critically depends on Zentillion-Scum?

Seriously, what the shit. Step back from the post button, and actually think about my actions and how they reflect on my alignment. Now do the same for any of the other people you find suspicious. Hint, this is how you separate the DerpTown from the Scum, as I've been trying to convince you guize for the past couple games. Sigh.

[Chaore]

Because Zakeri going suicidal basically decided the outcome of D1. I have stated this multiple times now.

I don't buy this. Maybe because I actually stayed to see him try and fight back, but I in all honesty still can not look at your last post and say 'this is a man who just gave up on the fight to save Zakeri'. If this is the case, I can see it, but I still can't see this case.

Annoyingly I'm half sure this is because you just decided not to post anything, so there is absolutely NO trace of you throwing your hands in the air and getting disheartened, so I have only your word to rely on in this case.

So... I can't prove or disprove this. This is... kind of when you drop a case, isn't it.

K4U has already given Real-Life reasons for not being active, correct? Can't really blame her for not posting, unless you want to say she's just lying/using it as an excuse.

She hasn't even tried in that one post she had. If she is seriously not having any time to hunt or do anything, she should honestly be replacing. I can hold her to a complete lack of content, I'm pretty sure.

I'm not comfortable holding Alice at L-1. I've essentially got nothing for a case right now and I'm not about to lynch someone over it.

##Unvote

Given how much I probably feel like Rou right now I want to get a good reread right now. I've messed something up incredibly, me thinks.

[UncertainJakutten]

At this point your arguments boil down to WIFOM.

Also, notice that I accounted for the fact you were planning to bus him with your oft linked post that supposedly makes you innocent

You only DIDN'T bus him because the Zak wagon was pretty much the most likely to resolve one, and you actually gain MORE "town cred" by not voting him and basically using the arguments you HAVE been using today.

That's L-3 now, not L-2, Chaore.

[UncertainJakutten]

Also, I really fucking hate the arguments I'm using, if it makes you feel any better Alice. I'm only using them because I think this is one of the rare instances where it's right. I wish I had something better than resorting to "lol WIFOM"

[GMOFucker: Makin' GMOs To Fuck 'Em]

Meh. Results of Alice reread:

* His suicide vote comes off really awkward to me even if it was a joke, and "trying to catch one of the new players on it" is kind of vague. Did he ever elaborate on what he meant by that?
* #74: Votes Furienify after Alice already said he wasn't going to put much stakes in his actions earlier, which seems odd. Why did you choose to vote him anyway, Alice? Rest of that post was fine though imo.
* #173: I'd like to see how that first sentance was going to end, and you never did place your vote where your mouth was despite leaving that in there. But meh, everything about this post has been pointed out already and I don't see much value in those points. Alice wasn't even on Zak, and I don't see how keeping his vote on Furien is bad since he had a reason for it and he DID say he thought both bandwagons were on town (meaning him not voting either shouldn't come a surprise), so.

Then he lurks for a long time after that until Carthrat brings him up in #320, which (even though it isn't by Alice) I feel the need to state my distaste with (probably awkward wording derp). As far as I can tell his previous case on Alice was "he didn't push the Furien case hard enough", which I'm somewhat confused by. It is true Alice could have pushed the case on Furien more, but how does not pushing it that much make him scummy? So Rat's case on him in #320 is really just "he didn't push the Furien case hard enough" + "ALSO HE LURKS", and I really don't see much of a difference (yet suddenly everybody starts buying it and drops the discussion on Serela, who I still get bad vibes from). I also agree with the belief that the post seems like an attempt at a distraction, perhaps to lead us away from Serela as Kefit suggested? Also confused why everybody treated Rat's post as a revolution, but whatever. Don't see why he thinks lurkers are more important to lynch than somebody who he said looks scummy beyond lurking (Zent) either. He also blatantly ignores K4U and Furien (who were lurking as well) and never actually answered me about my question regarding his opinion on Kefit. His defense of K4U again in #396 combined with how he didn't mention her earlier makes it seem like he doesn't really want K4U lynched for some reason.

Oh right, this post was about Alice. Uh. Okay, so, #382. How does whether you were on the bandwagons or not affect Rat's case? Don't really get that.

Why do you think Zent is scummier than K4U?

Refusal to bicker with UK could easily be an attempt to avoid slipping up, but I can't blame him considering how much pointless back-and-forth between UK and somebody else has already been in this thread.


Ehhhh. To be honest, I don't see many problems with Alice so far. There's a bit of iffy stuff but I wouldn't consider it actually scummy. Am I overlooking something major?

##Unvote Serela, ##Vote Carthrat for what I said in that blob of text in the middle of the post. Don't feel any better about Serela, though. Would like to know why he escaped  the radar ever since the lurkers were brought up.


Warning - while you were reading 4 new replies have been posted. You may wish to review your post.

... Ehhh none of it actually changes my opinions from what I can see. Noted though.

[?lice Bl?ckb?rn]

You only DIDN'T bus him because the Zak wagon was pretty much the most likely to resolve one, and you actually gain MORE "town cred" by not voting him and basically using the arguments you HAVE been using today.

Yes, the same "town cred" that has earned me a wagon and suspicion from several people including yourself. Yes, "town cred", that is what I would call this. Remember Alex from Himelander? In case you don't, here's the lesson you should have learned from that game: stop being a paranoid conspiracy theorist. It is completely inconducive to mafia play, and in fact, 100% counterproductive to, y'know, actual Scumhunting.

[The ⑨th Zentillion]

At this rate, there isn't going to be a lynch on this day... Such is the way of the world. ##Unvote

[GMOFucker: Makin' GMOs To Fuck 'Em]

Unvoting is just going to make that worse. Why is everybody unvoting Alice for no reason suddenly?

[The ⑨th Zentillion]

Because... because...

*goes out there* Those who unvoted might just be his scumbuddies...? Or indecisive like me.

At any rate, if it's not going to make things better...
##Vote: Alice

[?lice Bl?ckb?rn]

Unvoting is just going to make that worse. Why is everybody unvoting Alice for no reason suddenly?

Perhaps because apart from UK's case of horrible and Carth's opening case on me, there actually was no reason to vote me - they were simply lurker pressure votes. Why were they pressure votes? Because, putting it simply, LALu only makes sense when the person is lurking. Over here, there was a case of someone being outright inactive to the point where they were in threat of modkill, due to a mix of various IRL reasons combined with irritation at the game. At this point, it makes no sense to vote them for LALu alone - as either they will show up and start producing, in which case keeping the votes on them makes absolutely no sense if the entirety of the case against them is LALu, or they just get modkilled anyway at the end of the day, making voting for them utterly pointless.

Anyway, the reason why I'm posting this is because I'm suddenly really weirded out by Carthrat's case+vote on me. Yes, LALu is a good thing. It is also completely pointless by the time a lurker has hit the Modkill Timer(TM). So why did you make said case when I was pretty close to ModProd-levels of lurking, and kept up with it even well past that? You know better than that.

As for everyone else, that's interesting because it means that it screams easy wagon hop. Zentillion is particularly awful in this aspect, I'm not sure which is worse, his vote for me, or his unvote off of me. His vote for me is literally a "me-too" vote, whereas his hop off me looks like nothing more than a Scum getting cold feet w.r.t a Townie wagon. Not feeling particularly good about Chaore either, but there's far more uncertainty there as to how his actions correspond to a given alignment. Anyway, halfway done a reread, should have a proper case up in an hour or so.