Communication Breakdance (Game Over! Town win)

[Kitten4u]

@Umu

That almost sounds interesting enough to be worth the ordeal.  Except... well, not.
(I'm told I'll get ulcers later.  Thanks for the advance warning of what I may wind up going through...)

It's not, having ulcers totally sucks. In my case, I want to throw up every time I eat something, but I've been told they do different things to different people.  The pictures just make my optimism happy.

---

Even in context I see that as a slip.  He specifically says that scum might make another mistake, which unless there's a language thing I'm missing means that scum had already made one mistake before he posted that.  So if we change the quote to this:

And what is there to say that scum won't make another mistake later, if not in the RVS?

I still have the same problem.  It still implies that scum has already made a mistake before he posted that and the only thing that looked like a mistake to me was his claim.  Hence my belief that it was a slip.

While he asked why claiming early is bad, Heniwac never claimed to be a newb until 118:

Fair enough.  I suppose I should have said he "was acting like a newbie" instead of "claimed to be a newbie."  I have the same issue with both things becuase using a newbie defense is probably one of the easiest if not the easiest way to get out of doing scummy things.

And I'll say fair enough on #3.  I still don't like it though.

---

Anyway, reading recent responses is giving me the feeling that I have a bad case of tunnel vision.  I think it's time for a re-read.

[?q]

@Kitten4u: 

Even in context I see that as a slip.  He specifically says that scum might make another mistake, which unless there's a language thing I'm missing means that scum had already made one mistake before he posted that.  So if we change the quote to this:

And what is there to say that scum won't make another mistake later, if not in the RVS?

I still have the same problem.  It still implies that scum has already made a mistake before he posted that and the only thing that looked like a mistake to me was his claim.  Hence my belief that it was a slip.

...okay, I see what you're saying here.
I'm not sure if that's a poor word choice or not, but while I wouldn't overlook it I wouldn't drop a hammer for it.

I reread.  The short version of my notes is:
*SP can possibly be Town, but is making a lot of wrong moves back-to-back-to-back if he is.  I'm not buying it.
*I disagree with Serpentarius more or less entirely - in particular with his characterization of Chen as a "lurker" - but his positions are plausible enough to warrant not being voted IMO.  He's curiously linked to SP too.  In addition,

Surely Serpentarius was not the first person to see KGH's roleclaim?  Why didn't Serpentarius and SodiumPeroxide attack Pesco and Kitten4u?
And indeed, Kilga actually did reference KGH, albeit not the slip directly.  And then addressed it after KGH did... as did Pesco and UK.  Edible doesn't really have an excuse here.

*I have a shaky Town read on Pesco that I don't want to put stock in ATM.
*I have a slight scum read on Kiro on intuition.
*I have a notable scum read on Edible based on his last post and post 147, which both seem like weak and halfhearted participation.

[Serp]

I'd also like Hizengar to clarify just what he's voting me for.  If you think my case is bad, you should be pushing a better one, and unless you think my reasoning is scummy, that case should be on someone else.

No access counts as lurking?

Eh, call me cynical, but it seems like every game we get someone who says "I haven't shown up because of [valid excuse], just give me another few hours to catch up."  The hours pass, there's no post.  They get called on it again, they make an excuse the next day, the post still doesn't come.  I consider them functionally equivalent because most of the time, they are.  The fact that Chen's family's issue isn't going to just go away compounds the issue.  I can see why he's being encouraged to ask for a replacement.

Kilga:  If you're a yama, make every judgement you can!  In fact, to not do so seems...  lazy...  hmm...

Kilga:  I see where you're coming from, and everyone follows that philosophy to some degree or another.  It's just a matter of knowing where the line is between "this is self-evident" and "I should explain my thought process."  It's more pro-town to err on the side of the latter.

KGH's supposed Freudian slip is an interesting point.  To be fair, I can see how it would make sense from a townie - he could be saying that a mistake was made, and scum might make another mistake on top of that townie one.  I wouldn't jump on it unless I already had suspicion of KGH for more solid reasons, but since I do, it's worthy of consideration.

Kitten is extremely tsundere.  The points she has among her vitriol aren't bad, though.

I'll do a full reread for everyone tonight.

[Pesco]

Which Kitten you dafgjmsjzxfgjxykit!

[UncertainJakutten]

Kitten is extremely tsundere.  The points she has among her vitriol aren't bad, though.

Which Kitten you dafgjmsjzxfgjxykit!

I hope me because I don't see any vitriol from the other Kitten

[Nachtwanderlied]

Alright, Listotime.

Pesco/Kiro: Strikes me as town from gut feelings. Decent analysis from Pesco. Kiro 201 is odd. I can see the intent of drawing away from the roleclaim and the prod for me to pursue real scumhunting. However, the fact that scumhunting can arise from that topic (as with umu's case on Sodium) is real odd. Kiro's prods on Natrium seem odd because it seems like he wants to get a quick lynch of either.

Kilgamayan: Leaning scummy as of the moment. As of now, alot of posts did not bring up many new ideas. 256 is nothing more than a prod on me and a comment on Zengar's post. No attemtps to scumhunt other than WOOHOOing onto the Zengarexpress. Point about posting style seems like an excuse to not give definite conclusions.

umu: Leaning neutral. as of the moment. Sudden change to Natriumdoubleo without giving much of a reason makes me feel queasy. Again, would really like an explanation to why Natriumdoubleo is suspicious. Focus on S-Moriya seems WOOHOO-like. More information may change this though. Will also be referred to as dongsig from now on.

S-Moriya: Scummy. No idea why his most recent post didn't address our concerns. Again, providing the answers to the questions may or not affect my opinion.

Kitten4u: Neutral. Seems townie at first with all the pressure on me but I am uneasy with the fact that I am all she's blathered about. Her points on me have been addressed in the past, which is another uneasiness morsel.

Natriumdoubleos: Honestly, no idea. He seems to have townie intentions with the pressure on me yet how he believes annoyance is a factor on who to lynch is odd. Pushing the roleclaim when Zengar isn't even near that stage also strikes me as odd. Another factor is how he hasn't addressed the defense of "Anti-town, but not scummy" on me.  I would want the other's points on him before I make a conclusion.

Serpentarius: ahhhg no idea at all... 241 raises the question of why do you believe the justification was artificial. The reference to S-Moriya is curious though. Also tunnel vision is a pretty cool thing too

Edible: Slightly scummy. What really strikes me as unusual is that he asked about the votecount as a reason for him to throw him a vote. And doesn't do it after his parameters for WOOHOOing is set. Also the fact that he hasn't really pursued anything... The Zengar roleclaim push is unjustified and oddly related to Natrium.

Zengar: First stuck me as newbtown not knowing how to deal with a bandwagon. Vote on serp doesn't seem justified at all. Reasoning behind the vote is really WIFOMy. It's tempting to put more pressure on him but I'd like to see him back up the Serp vote before that.

UK: Vote was mainly a reactionary vote. Was really surprised at how quickly you unvoted me after a reread of my posts and votes Kilga after a prompt question. Feels like wishy-washiness in my gut. But I won't put too much weight onto that.  266 strikes me as odd because of the thought to WOOHOO back onto my wagon. Especially how most points in Kitten4u's case has been addressed already.

Looking back, the vote was mostly reactionary. A momentary madness, even. I'm leaning neutral for UK as of the moment.

##UNVOTE

[UncertainJakutten]

No vote despite having no less than 3 people listed as scummy, KGH?

You do realize that I posted before k4u's points were addressed (and their refutation is not something I precisely agree with), right?

[Kilgamayan]

Seniwac, why do you continue to not vote for me? You put up a decent case against me when addressing UK's idea that I was townish, and you've maintained that suspicion through to your most recent post, and yet you now sit there without a vote on anyone. Are you afraid to vote for me for some reason?

[Nachtwanderlied]

No vote despite having no less than 3 people listed as scummy, KGH?

You do realize that I posted before k4u's points were addressed (and their refutation is not something I precisely agree with), right?

Oh I realize that. It's just that your "ehhh Seni's town but maybe I'll vote again" that strikes me as odd.

Also, prod on Edible.

##VOTE EDIBLE

[UncertainJakutten]

Oh I realize that. It's just that your "ehhh Seni's town but maybe I'll vote again" that strikes me as odd.

Didn't say that. I'd said you are probably town but the wagon on you is rather valid.

Hence the umu reference.

[Pesco]

Yeah, sincerity isn't there when you don't have a vote to show for it. I think there's about 12 hours left and lynches aren't going to happen without votes.

Cut: well yeah already addressed and stuff...

[?q]

Sudden change to Natriumdoubleo without giving much of a reason makes me feel queasy. Again, would really like an explanation to why Natriumdoubleo is suspicious. Focus on S-Moriya seems WOOHOO-like.

The short answer is that
*his vote on you is horrible and thinly justified by tacking on others' reasons for calling you scummy
*his follow-up with the vote was apologetic "if placing this person I'm Not Policy Lynching at L-2 is offensive I can take it off"
*trying to sorta kinda not really maybe do exactly the same thing to Zengar "my vote isn't on you but if it were you'd be at L-1 so claim now"

I really don't know how one investigation tagged at the bottom of a post qualifies as WOOHOO focus, but whatever.

Also, Na is Nadium.

[Pesco]

Also, prod on Edible.

##VOTE EDIBLE

The prodvote is really weak at this stage of the game. Kilga makes a good point as to why you don't vote him when you present him as your scummiest suspect.

[Kilgamayan]

...

##Unvote: Zengar
##Vote: Seniwac

That is SERIOUS weaksauce. A prod vote with less than 12 hours to go when you have a better case on me and more conviction about Suwako?

Stack this on top of the "asking questions" schtick you've used throughout most of the day and this recent Day 1 summary (Review: Day 1 summaries are bad because they're an excellent way to look like one is trying - there's never enough activity on Day 1 to get a summary-worth read on everyone) and you've pushed yourself ahead of Zengar for me.

[Kitten4u]

Having tunnel vision is fun.  While I still think I'm hitting the right target I'm embarassed that I didn't notice more things.

I'd like Zengar to elaborate on Serp.
Edible needs to actually lay down a vote. 
Suwako needs to actually answer questions.

Those are the only other people that are making me raise my eyebrow, but none of them are nearly as bad as KGH.  I have a question for everyone that thinks he's town: why do you think he's town?  I'd like more of an answer than "gut," and I don't mind if you repeat things you've already said in case I missed them.

Now back to your regularly schedualed Kitten4u tunneling on KGH.

Kitten4u: Neutral. Seems townie at first with all the pressure on me but I am uneasy with the fact that I am all she's blathered about. Her points on me have been addressed in the past, which is another uneasiness morsel.

Considering that was every reason I was voting for you I don't see why it's shocking that I repeated some things.  If you want to refute any of them now would be a great time to do so.

UK: Vote was mainly a reactionary vote. Was really surprised at how quickly you unvoted me after a reread of my posts and votes Kilga after a prompt question. Feels like wishy-washiness in my gut. But I won't put too much weight onto that.  266 strikes me as odd because of the thought to WOOHOO back onto my wagon. Especially how most points in Kitten4u's case has been addressed already.

Looking back, the vote was mostly reactionary. A momentary madness, even. I'm leaning neutral for UK as of the moment.

##UNVOTE

*headdesk* Your questions on UK were basically the only pro-town thing I think you've done all game and you don't even think she's scum?  Gah.

No vote despite having no less than 3 people listed as scummy, KGH?

That is SERIOUS weaksauce. A prod vote with less than 12 hours to go when you have a better case on me and more conviction about Suwako?

Instead of repeating them I'll just go ahead and say "this" since they beat me to the punch.  Feeling even more comfortable with my vote.

[UncertainJakutten]

why do you think he's town?  I'd like more of an answer than "gut," and I don't mind if you repeat things you've already said in case I missed them.

Gut is a part of it, but...when I did my reread his subsequent questionings and such seemed more pro town motivated, even if he wasn't using them properly. It's hard to explain really...But that's basically what I got from isolated reread. He's kinda sorta trying to find scum.

Tag fixed!

[Pesco]

I have a question for everyone that thinks he's town: why do you think he's town?  I'd like more of an answer than "gut," and I don't mind if you repeat things you've already said in case I missed them.

So how do I explain gut then? Go beat Mokou a few times.

So before the game signups began, Seniwac asked to be allowed to play. In that convo, he asked how town would like it if he played like how I did (in reference to Umineko). I told him it wouldn't be acceptable.

I don't expect him to listen to instructions anyway since we know he's a troll. I'm rationalising that he might be setting up meta with this and from the PoV of being in similar situations plenty of times, he had made genuine effort (despite it going nowhere in particular).

[Kiro]

The text file for which this post is being typed out on is named: "argh"

---

KGH: Argh. There are a lot of nitpicky things that I could point out, mainly how different people have pointed out Sodium and your different reads on them. But I'll stick with thinking about the ones you think are scum.

Your points on Kilga aren't really correct. Kilga can spoonfeed you on them

Spoiler:

fetish time!

if he feels the need to. As for Suwako, yes he should answer your questions but you do need to elaborate on what else he's done to make you think he's Scum.

Your case on Edible actually looks the best though. #223 is the reference. Edible can go back and do an informal vote count from the last official one so he's being lazy there, including not following through on putting a vote down yet. The asking for a claim is a bit impulsive if he bothered to actually check how many votes Zengar had, but I'll call it null because not all newbies know that if they're put at L-1, they're encouraged to roleclaim to see if we are potentially lynching a Town power role. And yes, he hasn't done as much pushing, evidenced in #147. Therefore, his relative lack of effort can be argued as a relative lack of scumhunting which is a decent case against him. Unfortunately, you not initially voting and then calling your vote for Edible a mere prod is a huge downer on your Townieness.

---

KGH is definitely looking scummy. About the only thing holding me back is that the Edible case is ok even if he didn't follow through with it properly. Would like to see if Edible's impression of KGH (#117, #147, #223) has changed as a result of KGH's latest posts. And Zengar needs to reply to my questions. Not going to vote switch until these two things are done first. But I will switch if deadline is upon us.

[Sodium]

Post is late due to real life stuff.

I'm annoyed because there's always someone doing stupid things in Day 1, such as Nuclear Fusion's LOLSTUPIDGAMBITSANDI'MACOP.

Oh, and a list of suspicions without a vote is sorta useless. Example: Zengar's list of waffles, which was in this very game, and Zengar was attacked for it.

I can assume that you think Edible is scummier then Kilga and Suwako, seeing as you voted him over those two with 12 hours left, right? If it's true, you contradicted your list-o-suspicions.
---
Zengar needs to post. Scum trying to hide for the rest of the day? This isn't giving me good feelings, as when he made some half-decent posts, he disappears.
---
umu: I said that I think he's scum for that beginning crap, and because he isn't scum hunting but just asking questions about every thing he sees. That's pretty much what I did in Touhou Remix when I was scum; ask an assload of questions without doing actual scumhunting.

Second point is valid, but I was rushing that post.

I said I put Zengar equal to Seniwac at that point, so naturally, I could switch at any time. Actually bringing him to L-1 with 48+ hours left would be stupid. At least, I thought it would be an L-1.
---
Chen's getting a free pass into Day 2 I guess, as he had real life issues and such. There's also the chance of him getting a replacement, so yeah.
---
Edible needs to post, vote, etc.

Between Seniwac and Zengar, I'm staying on Seniwac for now. Zengar is bugging me a lot with is absence though, as I said before. I'll give him until 6 hours before deadline.

[Cabble]

You can go ahead and find a replacement for me. I'm busy the next 3 days and I already have another mafia game as it is.

[Sodium]

You can go ahead and find a replacement for me. I'm busy the next 3 days and I already have another mafia game as it is.

Alright then. =V

And then there were two kittens.

[UncertainJakutten]

You can go ahead and find a replacement for me. I'm busy the next 3 days and I already have another mafia game as it is.

Alright then. =V

And then there were two kittens.

I hope this doesn't become "And then there were none"

[FinnKaenbyou]

If Chen's dropping out, I'm willing to step in. Just send me the role PM.

Now I need to read this damn thread. SERIOUSLY PEOPLE HOW DID YOU COME UP WITH 10 PAGES ON DAY 1

[UncertainJakutten]

If Chen's dropping out, I'm willing to step in. Just send me the role PM.

Now I need to read this damn thread. SERIOUSLY PEOPLE HOW DID YOU COME UP WITH 10 PAGES ON DAY 1

posts like this one stating only one thing about how usually a day one goes to lock when I'm around. Or at least 15 pages.

[Kilgamayan]

Roukanken has posted once in 10 pages. I find this highly suspect.

[?q]

Not only that, but it was to complain about the game.
If that's all you're going to do, you need to replace out.

Serious post to follow.

[?q]

Also, after so much time on ms I honestly don't mind this length for Day 1, considering the first two pages are spam.

This is not the aforementioned serious post.

[UncertainJakutten]

Not only that, but it was to complain about the game.
If that's all you're going to do, you need to replace out.

Serious post to follow.

And the fact he's trying to claim ignorance of his role PM? Why didn't he bring this up earlier!?

[?q]

And the fact he's trying to claim ignorance of his role PM? Why didn't he bring this up earlier!?

NOT READING YOUR ROLE PM IS AGAINST THE SPIRIT OF THE GAME
It also makes you one step closer to Pesco.

-----

I have a question for everyone that thinks he's town: why do you think he's town?  I'd like more of an answer than "gut," and I don't mind if you repeat things you've already said in case I missed them.

His initial claim is anti-Town, but not scummy.
The things he has done since then are indeed scummy, but also could be attributed to being ineffective Town.
I do not believe that his lynch will yield a scum flip and have no plans to vote him, but I can see why others are voting him and don't have enough of a problem with it to question the wagon as a whole.  Or in other words, I would rather be focusing on other people (Edible, SJMoriya, Serpentarius, to a lesser extent Kilga and Zengar) but if that can't be done, at the very least this wagon isn't an Outrage!.

I said that I think he's scum for that beginning crap

And as before, I'd call that weak.

and because he isn't scum hunting but just asking questions about every thing he sees. That's pretty much what I did in Touhou Remix when I was scum; ask an assload of questions without doing actual scumhunting.

With this last post from KGH I can see this a bit more clearly.

I said I put Zengar equal to Seniwac at that point, so naturally, I could switch at any time. Actually bringing him to L-1 with 48+ hours left would be stupid. At least, I thought it would be an L-1.

You know that this board stops you from posting if you get cut.  There should be no accidental hammers on this site.  Ergo, L-1 is perfectly acceptable for people you think are scum D1.
Also, 48+ hours?  I don't think that's correct.
Last, toying with your vote like that "I could vote you, y'know" doesn't sit well with me.

[Pesco]

And the fact he's trying to claim ignorance of his role PM? Why didn't he bring this up earlier!?

NOT READING YOUR ROLE PM IS AGAINST THE SPIRIT OF THE GAME
It also makes you one step closer to Pesco.

Violation of rule 2 (in that other ruleset). DIE.

(Clicked modify instead of quote )

Last, toying with your vote like that "I could vote you, y'know" doesn't sit well with me.

That was the gimmick I said I used as scum.