Touhou: Awareness of Color Mafia. Day 3.

[Bardiche]

Miller claim = No night visits wanted! That's a well know fact.

Is that a well-known fact? I've never heard of it before. I know claiming Miller is a way to get Cops off your back, but you're still free game for any other investigative role. There's nothing especially scummy about visiting someone who claimed Miller. If your argument is that NNR "risked a PGO gambit", then why is it likely to you that Scum would gamble getting instantly killed... without offering a kill on you in return? Unless you're upgrading your claim to bullet-proof that got triggered. That'd still raise the question of, "Why the Miller, the one role that Cops can't auto-clear?"

[CF7]

Announcement.

Polaris replaces Chaore. Effective immediately.
I'll post a vote tally when i am more awake.

[Polaris]

Yo! I should really be going to sleep right now but I guess I should get something in.

##Vote Dorian

For now, I'm not really comfortable with Dorian's attitude towards the whole role thing. It feels unnecessarily coy and mindgamey, and it's kind of distracting. I'd personally like it if Dorian just claimed.

I'll talk about other people after I wake up tomorrow.

[CF7]

Progress report 3

Currently voting.
Conqueror (1): Animosity
ActionDan (1): Dr Rawr
Dorian (3): NNR, BT, Polaris
NNR (1): Dorian
Zakeri (6): Conqueror, SB, Raikaria, Serela, Moridin84, Just/Bard    L-2
Dr Rawr (1): Zakeri,
Raikaria (1): O4rfish

Not voting.
Massaca, ActionDan

With 15 alive it takes 8 votes to lynch someone.

~27 hours left.

[Conqueror]

Yeah I don't know anyone who's ever claimed that miller equals do not target. Although I have seen the pgo claiming miller gambit, it's nothing definite.

Polly do you have any useful information to share from last night?

[Raikaria]

Maybe I got impatient and I didn't had much hope that it would get me anyway but I intended to vote the guy anyway, so I prepared this post (which explains Raikarias OMGUS observation, ITT I was cut by him cause I still waited for his reaction). Any questions?

You're saying you got cut by half an hour?

Geez, that was the warning, Miller claim = No night visits wanted! That's a well know fact.

No; a miller claim =/= no night visits wanted. A miller claim = 'I won't show up right to you cops'. Which is why outright stating that the instant the game starts looks suspicious to me. Ideally; since you are town; you shouldn't be a major cop target in the first place. A miller should crumb that they are miller so they can prove that later if they do get copped, but ideally, since they are town, they should be acting pro-town enough that they don't need to outright out and they certainly don't eat up a cop result.

How does a miller claim mean 'don't doc me' or 'don't watch me' or 'don't track me' or 'don't bodyguard me' or 'don't rolecop me' or 'don't give me useless objects'?

It doesn't. That that just makes it sound like you claimed miller to dissuade anyone from visiting you. And you KNOW you were visited as well, and by whom it seems.

#Unvote
#Vote: Dorian

By the way guys; Dorian isn't the only claimed miller in the game. Someone else crumbed miller Day 1. Precautions were taken about this and I am fairly sure this crumb was legitimate after my actions on Night 1. While this is not the 100% definitive proof I have been saying before or saying for the purposes of Day 3, sleeping on things and Dorian's 'Miller = don't visit' thing make me think he needs to be lynched. Now.

The odds of there being two millers is not something I want to bank on.

The D1 crumbs I am talking about are between post numbers 30 and 60.

I am not outing the exact post or the person as of yet because it is up to them if they want to out now. Plus let's try to keep as little information in the hands of scum about our roles as possible hmm?

[SB]

I have stuff to catch up on but Raikaria please stop this. Claiming miller outright isn't scummy because you don't want to have to explain a crumb after the cop outed and wasted a night on you, you want them to stay away from the start. I have no idea where you're getting a second miller claim from but if they were real wouldn't they have counterclaimed Dorian day 1?

The only thing I agree with being weird is "why did you visit the miller" but that's more Dorian being weird than being scummy, honestly.

[Conqueror]

I only see one possible miller crumb in that range, and I'm pretty sure that's not a crumb, given there would probably be an outright counterclaim like SB said.

[SB]

(If you guys want to ask me questions while I'm posting  go ahead because really I'm having a hard time finding things to talk about this game.)

[WHMZakeri]

I've literally spent the past 72 hours attempting to read this thread and failing the entire time.
Yes, my V/la was real, and it's the reason why I was active lurking day one and making a jokevote even though I couldn't make it to the thread in time to participate in RVS. The wagon on me is a lot more forgivable now since my V/LA ended during night one and I've just been having this gigantic mental block

D1 impressions in order of who's listed in my notes
I'm sure Conqueror's doing a lot better than Dormio did, because the thing I didn't like about Dormio's vote on Raikaria was that the reasoning he used felt like he was talking about some alternate dimention, or reading it through Seija's eyes. I felt like none of the reasoning he used in 152 was indicative of the content in Raikaria's post 149 which I can only assume he was cut by and then decided not to read or mention anything in it ever again?

I'm kind of wary of Dorian because it feels like his entire casing on Serela, as well as the cases on NNR, Chaore, and Serela in his post 278 are made with full knowledge of my alignment, which shouldn't be possible for town on Night one. It feels scummy to me, but on the other hand I don't think it's fair to slam him for sticking to his convictions that I'm town.

The Only hint of the Old Serela is the fact that he added a vote for Raikaria that he didn't intend to go through with. The rest of his posts including the case on me and arguing back in forth with Dorian is done with enough confidence and competency that I don't feel like it resonates with the way Town!Serela talks about his scumspects.

Moridin is suspect to me because his only read content post (225) is confusing. The only real content it provides is pointing out that he puts deeper meaning into who I choose to vote and ends up with a scumpair theory, which is a huge jump especially when I have to take it as an implication that he's suspicious of me.

Massaca is pretty bad. Don't like her jumping onto Dan wagon with Oarfish, then uses the fact that she doesn't know who else to vote, and then tries to push the Dan wagon further after a bunch of people explain why he can't be scum. (Especially with his response to that being "But We don't know if the PR isn't town based yet." which is ultra-flimsy)

For all the posts I remember skimming, Chaore has almost nothing worth talking about, aside from disliking both me and Serela in post 93, before the reading got heavy.

There's not much to say on anyone else. I skipped every paragraph that talked about Dan's role with the exception of Oarfish's who applied it to Dan's alignment rather than everyone else who just shot the breeze with it. The last three names on my list are Dr. Rawr, SB, and Actiondan who are in that position because their actual content came very late in the day and were few. Of them, SB has a lot of names attached to him which is good, and has unique reasoning for his vote on Serela which I like despite that same reason being the only shred of townreading I've ever had on Serela this game. His post also made me more suspicious of Serela since it points out that Schezo gave up scumreading Serela super quickly despite the vote.

Dr. Rawr only has defending Dan and wanting to vote Massaca which are both null at best because they're very easy bits of content to have, since Oarfish's case was easy to dismantle and Massaca just jumping onto that case like a sheep was a bad move in general. This is kind of awkward in conjuction with him voting ActionDan like it was a given when the restriction failed.

All I have written for Dan is that he thinks Chaore is town.

My hunch is still there, but I don't think that alone is strong enough to convince people to form a counter wagon since it's now based on lurking and a contradictory action that isn't necessarily contradictory in context. My strongest suspicions are Serela, Massaca, and Moridin, though Moridin is on the same level as Dr Rawr in terms of content. Dorian is in a weird vortex for me since his posting and case styles show equal parts scum intent and town intent. Not exactly Null, but somehow mathematically turns null to me.

##Unvote: Dr. Rawr
##Vote: Serela

I just realized that none of the people I am willing to vote actually have a single vote on them.

[Raikaria]

I have stuff to catch up on but Raikaria please stop this. Claiming miller outright isn't scummy because you don't want to have to explain a crumb after the cop outed and wasted a night on you, you want them to stay away from the start. I have no idea where you're getting a second miller claim from but if they were real wouldn't they have counterclaimed Dorian day 1?

The only thing I agree with being weird is "why did you visit the miller" but that's more Dorian being weird than being scummy, honestly.

They did counter-claim the miller SB. They did it through crumbs, but it's pretty obvious they were challenging Dorian.

[Conqueror]

Raikaria, I'm pretty sure I know what you're talking about, and I'm pretty sure that's not a counterclaim, least of all because it would have been brought up later.

I guess we can let the party themselves confirm or deny if they wish, but I really think you're barking up the wrong tree here.

Brb reading Zak wall.

[SB]

If they were really a miller, why would they not just counterclaim Dorian for a free scum lynch?

[O4rfish]

Because we have to keep the real Miller secret from Scum.

[SB]

Unless they're the macho miller beloved doccop i highly doubt that

[O4rfish]

or the Bulletproof Miller Vig, but yes I was being sarcastic

[Conqueror]

Zak are you essentially saying that Serela is being too competent to be scum? I can't really parse the reason you're voting Serela.

[Raikaria]

Because that person at the time had a reason to be unsure, he did not want to directly counter-claim at the time because there could have been two legitimate millers. Events during Night 1 cleared up the confusion.

I do not wish to go into more details if I can avoid it because otherwise I will have to give away a lot more about my own role, and the real miller's own role than both myself want to do at the present time, and more important, and it is not my place to out for the real miller. Which is why I said if the real miller wants to out, they can do it themselves.

[Raikaria]

Oh god the number of changes I made to that 2nd part made it somehow illegible I hate it when my mouse suddenly moves.

I do not wish to go into more details if I can avoid it because otherwise I will have to give away a lot more about my own role, and the real miller's own role than both myself and more importantly the real miller want to give out if we can help it. Which is why I said if the real miller wants to out, they can do it themselves.

[Raikaria]

Actually you know what? Enough with the crypticness about this. Sorry but I'm just gonna show everyone:

I'll never be redy for this game, ugh, I feel like just going and taking a nap, but no, all of you annoyances have to be here, milling about.. Just go away.
I can't even take a nap with all this noise.

If we're going to play the 'make everyone go home one at a time' game, then let's just start with the most suspicious one so we can be done with this.
##Vote: Dorian

You have a Remilia avatar and a Miller claim. I can already tell you're going to be exhausting to deal with.

NNR is the real miller.

[SB]

I don't like Zak but a lot of the votes on him seem kind of weak?

Serela's never really says why he's scum so much as why his play has been weak (and he doesn't really give a reason for why Rawr is scum at all and he'd lynch him too) which is really questionable to me? Like, your Zak vote is a glorified prod at best. Morodin's is because his content is weak as well but doesn't say why it's scum more than bad!town, and Bard's is essentially the same but also for lurking. I guess Bard is better than the other two because I can remember other people he's actually cased?

Zak are you essentially saying that Serela is being too competent to be scum? I can't really parse the reason you're voting Serela.

But yeah this is pretty much what I thought as well.

I think I know what Dorian is now, but I'm not gonna give him a response to use.

[Raikaria]

I think I know what Dorian is now, but I'm not gonna give him a response to use.

Him being me or Dorian?

[Conqueror]

Agree with you about a lot of the votes on Zak being weak, but I don't expect much better from Moridin (although I'd like him to talk more about the game in general instead of just going with the flow). Serela and Bard, well, their votes are weak but I think within their town capabilities.

Was thinking of switching to rawr earlier since rawr's response to me was that he'd put Dan on the backburner and look for other suspects but he hasn't said anything since then. I don't know how much of this is him being busy, but he latched onto dan!scum rather quickly at the start of d2 and let go of it pretty quickly as well, so it doesn't seem sincere. That plus he seems not to be getting much attention for some reason from most people.

I'll let NNR and Dorian clear things up about their claims, but I still don't think Dorian is scum, since scum fakeclaiming miller would usually wait until most other people have posted before making an outright claim. Or, they would resort to crumbs that they could go back to later in case they got copped, but without the risk of being counterclaimed by a town miller. Unless they're really ballsy scum.

Cut: he's obviously talking about dorian.

[SB]

Dorian. I do think he faked miller, but I don't think he's scum for doing it.

[Conqueror]

##Unvote
##Vote rawr

Feelings. Reading Zak's post again, he does have a point about Schezo jumping quickly off Serela. Still not sure about him but I think this is a better direction right now.

[Raikaria]

Dorian. I do think he faked miller, but I don't think he's scum for doing it.

I am fairly confident that he is. Scum claiming miller off the bat to dissuade any cops from investigateing them for a 'fake' result. Not to mention his reaction to being visited. He thought his miller claim meant 'don't visit me'. You know who wants to shoo away all investigative roles? Scum.

[ActionDan]

Ok.  So 2 miller claims are whack and one has got to be scum.  Did dorian retract? If so that's pretty scummy anyway since it basically means the plan was to not get targeted by cop investigative roles.  To add to that, he seems to know nnr visited him which is a net plus methinks despite him claiming that he didn't want people to visit him (which apparently was a gambit now ?).

[Serela]

Which is why outright stating that the instant the game starts looks suspicious to me. Ideally; since you are town; you shouldn't be a major cop target in the first place.

um no, ideally since most people in this game rolled town they would not be ideal cop targets but that just is not how things work out in real life

Early miller claim is fine (I think ActionDan is the only other person here who doesn't think that insta-claiming miller is ideal miller play due to the fact that we actually went through that discussion awhile ago :V) but anyway someone already responded about this and I don't have much time before work

Don't really know how to respond to Zak just like everyone else because his case is "Serela is playing too well", so, uh :S I mean, for one thing, I thought I was getting better about that lately, but now you're voting me over doing so? ;_; I'm not exactly worried though since that's the first vote on me today and everyone else is "wha?", though, so, whatever.

As for the comments that my read-page thing said "He never said why Zak was scum, just that the play as bad", well... thinking back, I pretty much explicitly stated "He hasn't actually done anything explicitly scummy", and that's true. Zak was V/LA d1, his problems were just having low content which is somewhat justified by D1, and he'd only gone like one day into d2 at the time without having made the catchup post yet. It was bad, it was worth voting compared to the other players, but it really wasn't explicitly scummy. That being said, he now has made said post, so me (and the entire rest of the Zak wagon, which is a lot of people) need to reevaluate. And, uh... I need to do other things right now *cough* I need to figure out when deadline is. (okay, 19 hours, I can just handle Zak(/Dorian and NNR?) stuff after I get back from work)

Raikaria's shenanigans leading into NNR is real miller doesn't surprise me after that "How did you know NNR targetted you at night?" (even if it was a misunderstanding, when I go back and look at it again, the first line really does feel like it was worded that way, albiet likely accidentally considering the second line is far less like that)

You're saying you got cut by half an hour?

This is easier than you may think :V Mafia posts can take awhile, -especially- when you get distracted midway.


Anyway- for the sake of not having my vote on Zak after he made a huge contentpost I haven't even had time to properly look at, and in light of realizing Rawr hasn't posted in LIKE FOURTY FIVE HOURS OR SOMETHING (after also being nigh-nonexistent d1 past thinking Dan's PR was unlikely and asking him to fullclaim after the 1v1 started)  yeahhhhh I think I'm totally fine with doing this
##unvote ##Vote Dr.Rawr
And it's not really part of the vote but Rawr has precedent for megalurking as scum

[Serela]

his problems were just having low content which is somewhat justified by D1

somewhat justified by v/la* (...also from it being d1)

[Bardiche]

Raikaria, do you share a QT with NNR? A Scum QT?
I think it's scummier to crumb Miller and not claim it than claim it outright: if Scum claims Miller outright, that stops Cops from going there. If Scum crumbs it and claims it after a Cop checked, it's an easy out to be protected from Cop results, and also wastes their action.

Zakeri, are you really doing this? Are we really going to yell at Serela every game to GIT GUD and when he does so, you vote him for "being too competent"? Gonna need better explanation for why that equals Scum!Serela.

Polly can you tell us who Chaore tried to kill N1 so we can skip the semantics and lynch you for being scum.