Thoughts on Gensokyo

[Vael]

After one too many Touhou SI stories, I wanna take a shot at trying to figure out how an average joe (myself in this case) would try to live/survive in Gensokyo and their views/notes made during this time. Please note:
1) I'm not Japanese, I'm still learning to write Japanese, I've never been to Japan, but I've read up on their Culture quite a bit...it still does not compare to actually experiencing the Culture first hand though.
2) Since I'll be basing this on the SI, I'll be preserving my knowledge of Touhou, however, I am yet to read the latest fanbook.
3) I'm a village/small town boy from Southern Africa, I've learned a few things about survival (none of which are applicable to Gensokyo *sigh*), learned how to shoot a rifle (fair shot), and I'm tad out of shape and have a weak body in general.
4) I'm really, really spiritual, and according to a guy my dad knows, traditionally I would have been seen as a prime candidate for training by a Traditional Doctor, who are more or less the African equivalents to the Native American Shaman. Not sure if that would be of any good though.

With that said, let's begin!

*The Boys are preparing and being sent screaming to and from Gensokyo, please wait warmly*

[qMyon]

First priority would be getting to a place of relative safety, probably the human village, one of the shrines, or Eientei. Failing any magical potential, you'd have to get some training to survive. What training, however, is beyond me. I seem to remember reading somewhere that outsiders can return to the outside via the Hakurei shrine with the shrine maiden's aid.

Anyway, based on your points,

1. If you can speak Japanese, probably works well enough initially. Dunno which dialect they speak in Gensokyo, though.
2. Depends on where you end up. If you end up anywhere described only in the latest book, well, minus 5 to survivability?
3. Probably a bad sign. Given primitive levels of tech, physical capability may be quite important. Unless, of course, you brought a rifle with you, in which case it's a whole different matter.
4. Hmm, no idea about this one. Depends on whether it would give you any affinity for magic. Of course, nearly every SI I've read has some of this.

Of course, you could have some value based on whatever the actual gender ratio there is, which might boost your value to residents and thus your survival chances. Then again, just my two cents.

[cuc]

I'm really, really spiritual, and according to a guy my dad knows, traditionally I would have been seen as a prime candidate for training by a Traditional Doctor, who are more or less the African equivalents to the Native American Shaman. Not sure if that would be of any good though.[/i]

Er, this part interests me. Would you elaborate on what "being spiritual enough to be a candidate for Doctor" in your cultural context means?

First priority would be getting to a place of relative safety, probably the human village, one of the shrines, or Eientei. Failing any magical potential, you'd have to get some training to survive. What training, however, is beyond me. I seem to remember reading somewhere that outsiders can return to the outside via the Hakurei shrine with the shrine maiden's aid.

There's actually enough canon info to figure out what would happen to an outsider in Gensokyo.

1. Some outsiders are kidnapped by Yukari. (PCB .txt file)

Implication: It can be argued that everything Yukari does is for the benefit of Gensokyo, so these outsiders are considered beneficial to Gensokyo.

2. Outsiders generally appear at a few gates on the Border: Hakurei shrine, Road of Reconsideration, Muenzuka.

3. Some are tricked to turn back to the outside world by illusions at the Border.

4. Outsiders can return via the Hakurei shrine. Most prefer to stay in Gensokyo.

5. Nowadays in Gensokyo, youkai hardly ever eats human. Low level youkai such as Rumia are too incompetent to actually pose any threat, while high level youkai (including Yuuka) have enough decency to not harm humans. The real danger lies in middle level youkai who are either unsocial (like Medicine) or opportunists who think they can get away with eating a stray human, and other natural hazards that an outsider may be not used to (it'll be pretty sad to die because you don't know to be on the lookout for signs of fairy pranks!). The only modern day human death ever explicitly mentioned in canon is a villager being eaten by a mundane wolf (Oriental Sacred Place).

Note: PMiSS says youkai often group up and go outside the Border to hunt for humans, although I have my doubts regarding this claim.

6. Some residents of Gensokyo are helpful to strangers, such as Mokou, Alice (she allows people lost in the Magic Forest to stay at her house) and all crow tengu (they have a reputation as guides) (SWP demo). ZUN once said that Reimu would never help a stranger (during production of the Anime Tenchou PV), yet in the manga, she is more than once shown to be willing to help.

7. The canon never deals with its consequences, but all humans can fly in Gensokyo. No doubt any outsider would soon learn to fly too.

Estimation: flying costs spiritual power in SWR, so perhaps ordinary humans don't have enough spiritual power to fly for very long?

8. Not every villager is a powerful youkai hunter, but the human village does have its own youkai extermination experts.

Some snobbish Touhou fans like to mock people dreaming of self-insertion into Gensokyo with the declaration "humans are just cattle in Gensokyo" or "the only use of outsiders in Gensokyo is youkai food". But setting aside any value judgement on SI fantasy, what they claim to be canon is in fact as far from canon as fluffy Gensokyo.  As long as an outsider can avoid dangers and find help from the right person until he becomes fully adapted to life in Gensokyo, he'll be fine.

[Power]

Most prefer to stay in Gensokyo

Where did you get that information from?  I thought humans usually from the outside world usually try to get out of gensoukyou. 

[Tengukami]

Where did you get that information from?  I thought humans usually from the outside world usually try to get out of gensoukyou. 

Common sense, really. Most people living in a place are there because they want to be there, and if folks can find their way in, it's usually because they want to be there, too. Where did you read most people from the outside who come into Gensokyo are trying to get out?

[Power]

Well I thought only depress people go into gensoukyou.  Also I heard it was rare that they actually make it to the human village since they usually pop up near the border of gensoukyou which I believe is far away from the human village.  I also believe that ending up in an unknown place full of youkai may be exciting but then again never seeing your friends and families ever again might make some people go back.   :V

Yes I remember now.  I got it from Sanae's profile   Here's the quote from Symposium of Post-mysticism itself.  Not sure if the translation is right but here it is. 

http://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Symposium_of_Post-mysticism/Sanae_Kochiya

Human beings from the outside world mostly end up getting eaten by youkai or get sent back to the outside world.

   

However, examples of humans like her who come in to Gensokyo by their own will and settle down are rare. Upon that, she is a human being that is adjusting to Gensokyo.

[Tengukami]

So most people get sent back out again. Huh. Guess you have to keep a low profile if you go there!

[Pesco]

4) I'm really, really spiritual, and according to a guy my dad knows, traditionally I would have been seen as a prime candidate for training by a Traditional Doctor, who are more or less the African equivalents to the Native American Shaman. Not sure if that would be of any good though.

Being a sangoma would make you par with a miko imo. That alone however is still not going to save you from being eaten by the likes of Rumia.

Just make your way to Eientei. It's got the least hostile youkai (rabbits) and a good portion of sanity :V.

[cuc]

Thanks for correcting me about Perfect Memoir and Symposium! 

So most people get sent back out again. Huh. Guess you have to keep a low profile if you go there!

Actually the original language is 外の世界に戻っていってしまう.  It's just "returned to the outside world", not "sent back".

Being a sangoma would make you par with a miko imo. That alone however is still not going to save you from being eaten by the likes of Rumia.

Just make your way to Eientei. It's got the least hostile youkai (rabbits) and a good portion of sanity :V.

I think even if Rumia finds an unconscious and unprotected human lying before her, she wouldn't know where to start eating. Frankly, I don't believe she has ever tasted one bite of human flesh.

Eientei is not a good suggestion for a newcomer, because the bamboo forest is too dangerous. You are not Maribel and Renko, you cannot bet your life on Mokou or Tewi finding you before a middle level youkai does.

And yes, a sangoma, or any non-Japanese spirit person in Gensokyo is a fresh idea. He should find his inner powers greatly enhanced, but at the same time he may be isolated from the spirits he's familiar with.

[Pesco]

It's only dangerous in terms of getting lost in there. You're more likely to come across a youkai rabbit there due to their population being concentrated in Eientei. The rabbit will probably run from anyone it sees and you can try follow it to Eientei. Getting more lost when you're already lost is not a disadvantage.

[Tengukami]

Actually the original language is 外の世界に戻っていってしまう.  It's just "returned to the outside world", not "sent back".

Is there a meaningful difference between "returned to the outside world" and "sent back to the outside world" that I'm missing here?

[Power]

Is there a meaningful difference between "returned to the outside world" and "sent back to the outside world" that I'm missing here?

"sent back" could mean that somebody tried to force you to go back while "return to" could mean that by your own free will you decided to go back. 

[Tengukami]

"sent back" could mean that somebody tried to force you to go back while "return to" could mean that by your own free will you decided to go back. 

The machine translation I'm getting for 外の世界に戻っていってしまう is "have gone back to the outside world", so I'm curious why then cucuc would choose the words "returned to", which is the exact same thing as "sent back to". I don't want to rely on machine translations, but if what cucuc is saying is correct, humans are indeed deposited into the outside world.

[Pesco]

Gensokyo is a kind of Eden that humans got kicked out of?

[Tengukami]

Oo! I like that idea ...

[cuc]

It's only dangerous in terms of getting lost in there.

Youkai do go there looking for easy prey (PMiSS), and humans did get eaten there (CiLR). Also see the Changeability of Strange Dream music CD story.

> 外の世界に戻っていってしまう

There are two verbs with the same root, 戻る modoru and 戻す modosu. The former is intransitive as in "he returns", the latter is transitive (with direct objective), as in "he returns the book".

The translator made a mistake here. The verb in the sentence above should be 戻る. "[They] went back to the outside world." Those people returned on their own will.

(If the verb was 戻す, the sentence would be 外の世界に戻していってしまう.)

PMiSS and Symposium both emphasized that Gensokyo is quite welcome to outsiders who chose to stay, as they bring in new knowledge.

[Vael]

Well now, those are some pretty solid ideas and notes, thanks peeps, and Pesco, I don't wanna sound rude but I'm pretty surprised someone knows about them. In this case though, Sangoma is the Zulu name, my culture, Setswana calls them, Ngaka-wa-Setswana.

Er, this part interests me. Would you elaborate on what "being spiritual enough to be a candidate for Doctor" in your cultural context means?

Well, in a sense, I can kinda "feel?" the world around me, whenever I exercised hard enough outside at some point, especially at night I could see strange clouds of colors from living things around me, plants were green, humans and animals were blue/red/white depending on their aggression towards me. Furthermore I've also been to sort of understand what some plants were traditionally used for, like there's a tree that Dingaka (plural of our name for them), used to use to call and control wind, the first time I saw it, I "felt?" a cool flowing thing in it and understood that it was connected to the wind somehow...before I heard what it was used for. However, my major "trick" I guess is that I could quite literally predict when it was going to rain, and it would always be preceded by a strange spiritual bell-like sound.

There's also the fact that I can kinda communicate/fight with spirits in my dreams, that guy I mentioned earlier said that the reason why my family's home was so peaceful was because my presence alone kept curses and spirits away from everyone, especially since I was able to fight them whenever I sleep...the fact that this guy managed to suck blood out of me without making a wound in the first place (I was seriously ill at the time) and found a black vial of something in my pillow in the same night makes me think he knows what he is talking about.

Strange world, huh?

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Alrighty, let's get on with this, now I started this without planning on how I'm gonna arrange this and so it will end up being really chaotic at times, for that I apologise in advance...tell ya what, for curiosity's sake, you guys can join as well, I wanna see your views and theories too. ^^

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Arrival:
So, realistically, how would one so far away really enter Gensokyo?

1. Some outsiders are kidnapped by Yukari. (PCB .txt file)

Implication: It can be argued that everything Yukari does is for the benefit of Gensokyo, so these outsiders are considered beneficial to Gensokyo.

This one, at first glance, would seem to be the most likely way to enter from my point of view, especially since I can?t go to Japan yet, except for one thing:

Why would Yukari bother? Other than my potential I don't have much to offer beyond my knowledge or artistic abilities. Now if it was because of that potential?

*shrugs*

That would make for an interesting story now wouldn?t it?

Places likely to be encountered: Near Hakurei Shrine, Road of reconsideration or Muenzuka

Since I?m travelling via Yukari?s Gap-lines, I suppose that there?s only one place for me to end up?the Hakurei Shrine, but at the same time though, would she use that little extra energy to deposit me anywhere else in Gensokyo?

?man, for a thought exercise, I?m coming up with more questions than answers. =/

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If an outsider has the luck to reach the human village, they can be returned safely to the outside world if they go to the Hakurei Shrine...However, there are also rare cases where outsiders settle into Gensokyo...Such outsiders are treasured, since they hold unique knowledge.

Well now, according to this, it seems like one would actually have a choice in leaving or staying?and would be well rewarded if they do stay.

Anyways, a question for those more knowledgeable on this matter?

The Road of Reconsideration (再思の道 Saishi no michi) is a road where the higanbana blooms (especially in the autumn season), connecting the Forest of Magic and Muenzuka. Avoided by the humans of Gensokyo due to its distant location, the Gensokyo border is somewhat blurred here. People from the outside world contemplating suicide often ends up drifting across this road, which is why it has become a popular hunting grounds among the youkai. However, while walking through the flower fields, the wanderers may suddenly come to reconsider their decisions and turn back with a renewed will to live (unless a youkai finds them first). It's secret lies within the higanbana's discomforting toxins that alerts a person's mental survival instincts.

This sounds like one doesn?t need to be in Japan or near the other Hakurei Shrine to enter Gensokyo, thoughts?

[Tengukami]

The translator made a mistake here. The verb in the sentence above should be 戻る. "They... went back to the outside world." Those people returned on their own will.

Ah, I see. Thanks for the clarification.

[Pesco]

Well then be more surprised that we're in the same country. We can chat via other means any time.

[Vael]

Well then be more surprised that we're in the same country. We can chat via other means any time.

*Jawdrop*

Well now.

[Imosa]

I was always under the impression that humans without magic, or under the protection of the village, would be seen as a snack in Gensokyo but I guess not. So what do the Yokai eat, if not humans?

[Tiamat]

Youkai eat humans (most.  Not all. All youkai ATTACK humans in various ways but some don't eat them.  Kogasa's "surprise" is her way of attacking humans and she only takes a small metaphorical bite out of one's spirit if she succeeds) but the humans of Gensokyo are not for eating under the vampire contract (stated in both PMiSS and CiLR from Yukari's PoV).  Outsiders that end up in Gensokyo, however, are fair game. (heck, outsiders that don't end up in Gensokyo are fair game. PMiSS and PCB's prologue state that youkai regularly have hunting teams that go outside, and PMiSS as well as at least one other source I don't recall states that the youkai cover up their hunts in the outside world by making it look like it was a suicide or missing person incident. Part of this is necessary because the vampire contract stipulates that the vampires get humans from the outside world)

I don't know if there's a point where one can be considered an officially naturalized citizen of Gensokyo (IE, are Youkai allowed to eat Sanae now or not?).

Most outsiders that end up in Gensokyo are stated in PMiSS to either get eaten or to return to the outside world. It's stated in PMiSS that the latter is achieved if the human makes it to the Hakurei shrine. The majority of outsiders who return end up seeing/thinking it was all just a dream.

It's also stated that outsiders that stay end up staying in the human village. I don't know if this means ALL outsiders. However, given that outsiders are not protected by the contract, it seems that staying in the human village (if you end up staying in Gensokyo) is a wise idea. I don't see why Eientei would want to KEEP you if you somehow made it there (they'd certainly be hospitable but eventually you'll probably just get escorted by them to the human village), and most other places would probably just eat you.  Going to the Hakurei Shrine might just end up with you poofing back to the outside world (due to your thoughts still being with the outside world combined with being so close to the border. My guess.  it's not wholly explained how it works regarding the "thoughts are in the other world so you spirit away to there" thing), and I don't think Reimu would care for another permanent resident there (how would you make a living, anyways?  I suspect the only reason Reimu isn't in complete poverty is because Yukari's sneaking donations into the donation box. Yukari doing that is canon albeit it's not stated/shown to what extent)

[Imosa]

I imagine once people get to know you, eating you will become more and more unacceptable until nobody thinks about trying. I mean. If a Yokai ate Sanae, anyone who regularly visits the temple would know, and this group includes Suwako and Kanako, who probably aren't people you want on your bad side. So, when you arive, your an easy meal, once you get into the village, still pretty easy, once you've hung around for a month your getting there, a year tops, nobody will touch you. This is kinda a cruel way of looking at it but I think it's justified.

I always imagined that if I arrived in Gensokyo I'd end up in the forest of magic and stumble across a house in the woods and then right as I begin backing away. I get attacked and eaten by Alice... such a weird image. If Alice really will let you stay the night at her house, I'd feel very awkward accepting that offer but ultimately I'd think it's a good idea and spend the rest of the night touching as little stuff as possible, lest I break a doll or something.

[Vael]

I was always under the impression that humans without magic, or under the protection of the village, would be seen as a snack in Gensokyo but I guess not. So what do the Yokai eat, if not humans?

From what I understand, there's more than one way a Youkai can sustain themselves, but they revolve around "Fear". Fear of the mysterious borders between existences, fear of the natural world, fear of being surprised by a monster...so on.

[cuc]

So what do the Yokai eat, if not humans?

For most youkai, human flesh is delicious but not necessary for survival. It's been implied many times that humanity's fear of the unknown is the essence that sustains youkai existence. I think the actual eating part is just the finalization and confirmation of this fear.

PMiSS and PCB's prologue state that youkai regularly have hunting teams that go outside, and PMiSS as well as at least one other source I don't recall states that the youkai cover up their hunts in the outside world by making it look like it was a suicide or missing person incident. ...
The majority of outsiders who return end up seeing/thinking it was all just a dream.

Ah yes, the record of the 13th Hakurei shrine maiden that begins the PCB prologue.

It says, "most people aren't able to return to the outside world", in the event they return, they'd say they have been to Peach Blossom Spring or Penglai (Hourai), i.e. a paradise like Xanadu or Shangri-La, and no one ever believes them.

To complicate things, ZUN has stated in a FAQ (I think it's a post on his old site which has yet to be translated) that:

1. The 13th Hakurei shrine maiden is not Reimu
2. The knowledge written down by the 13th Hakurei has already been greatly twisted through time, and doesn't resemble the truth.

So in the end, in a typical ZUN manner, the 13th Hakurei is yet another unreliable narrator. Gotta leave things ambiguous!

Oh, it also says

Why is Gensokyo a paradise for both humans and youkai, you ask?
That's because everyone has enough power to defeat youkai in combat, which is, of course, anything but boring.

At least the 13th Hakurei can't possibly be wrong about this point, right? Maybe the moment an outsider learnt to fight back spiritually (and after the SC rules were established, to use danmaku) is the moment her survival is guaranteed. So for someone as powerful as Sanae, that was never an issue.

Honestly, I think ZUN himself is very inconsistent about these matters. I wonder if he still remembers those writings from 10 years ago at all.

Do you know that he once said (in a public speech, while somber!) that Gensokyo has electricity? I think the humans mostly use batteries, while the kappa and tengu have some small power plants and generators before the Moriya's arrival. You can see a few microphones in Bohemian Archive!

I get attacked and eaten by Alice... such a weird image.

Hehe, sure is weird, A magician youkai doesn't need food and sleep. Alice eats and sleeps out of old human habits because she's still a newly converted magician. She's considered one of the most human-like youkai in Gensokyo.

[Imosa]

For most youkai, human flesh is delicious but not necessary for survival. It's been implied many times that humanity's fear of the unknown is the essence that sustains youkai existence. I think the actual eating part is just the finalization and confirmation of this fear.

Maybe they just eat a few humans just to really get the point across that they are scary but are rather indifferent about the taste.
lol, thanks for all the info cucuc.

[Tengukami]

I don't know if there's a point where one can be considered an officially naturalized citizen of Gensokyo (IE, are Youkai allowed to eat Sanae now or not?).

I don't know, either, but I do love the idea of their being a naturalization process for humans that enter Gensokyo. It could be like how asylum seekers are handled in Europe - if they can make it as far as the Human Village, they can plead their case as to why they should be granted asylum and allowed to stay, as opposed to being sent packing. If approved, they first live in the Human Village for a probationary period, to see how they fit in and behave, and if that goes well they're given naturalization.

For some reason I imagine Keine handling these cases. She interacts with humans regularly, but is also definitively youkai. I reckon she'd be tough but fair about who passes muster, and help approved refugees in the integration process.

[Imosa]

I don't know, either, but I do love the idea of their being a naturalization process for humans that enter Gensokyo. It could be like how asylum seekers are handled in Europe - if they can make it as far as the Human Village, they can plead their case as to why they should be granted asylum and allowed to stay, as opposed to being sent packing. If approved, they first live in the Human Village for a probationary period, to see how they fit in and behave, and if that goes well they're given naturalization.

For some reason I imagine Keine handling these cases. She interacts with humans regularly, but is also definitively youkai. I reckon she'd be tough but fair about who passes muster, and help approved refugees in the integration process.

What would be a bad reason for being granted asylum? "Hey I was eating dinner alone when a crazy blond pulled me into a portal and dropped me into a forrest. Can I crash here for a bit?"
If we accept that outsiders can leave the human village through the Hakurai Shrine then nobody should be an issue.

[Tiamat]

Well, PMiSS states that outsiders that stay are valued for their knowledge.  That's one fact that Akyu is probably NOT unreliable about, considering that she lives in the human village.  So I'm sure they'd be more than happy to grant Asylum, though realistically speaking I imagine a lot of humans would just want to get the hell out of there.  ZUN himself stated that he probably couldn't bear to live in Gensokyo because he needs his internet

Do you know that he once said (in a public speech, while somber!) that Gensokyo has electricity? I think the humans mostly use batteries, while the kappa and tengu have some small power plants and generators before the Moriya's arrival. You can see a few microphones in Bohemian Archive!

Akyu has a record player that she uses to listen to FM synthesis music, too.

[Power]

Sounds more like survival of the fittest to me or being really lucky.  I mean your trapped in a world where yokai hunt you for a living and you don't know where you are.  That means you have chances of meeting either a sweet yokai like kogasa who could help you in your journey or a dangerous yokai like Rumia.  I can understand why people wanted to leave as their first experience in gensokyo was probably most of the time being almost eaten by a yokai.  You also have to guess your way to the human village or the shrine and live out in the woods camping for survival hoping a dangerous yokai doesn't find.

As for the human village there should be a process where they're granted naturalization.  I mean if they are valued for their knowledge and if they are rare then there should be a process of naturalization.  For Sanae I believe she is a special case as she has 2 gods traveling with her.  Obviously she lives at the shrine so she wouldn't have to live at the human village and go through this process.  She is needed as she grants miracles so the human village needs her.  Most humans don't get this luxury of having travel with powerful gods so most of them are on their own with survival of the fittest.