Semi-major revision on an important facet of the official materials - Need Input

[iK]

After reading the thread, I now have an accurate measure of how bored the average Touhou fan is. Bored to the extent of debating five words for over fifty posts. However, I am waiting for someone else to tell me this is nothing compared to past discussions.

I think a more accurate phrasing would be "Bored encompassing the debate of five words."

[N-Forza]

If I were really bored, I would be replying to every post in this thread. Sorry that not everyone can find linguistics and localization interesting.

Phrases like "comprehension and utilization of" are still too specific. There needs to be an implication that each character may have other abilities, but they have their own unique focus. I'm leaning towards "abilities encompassing" but that still feels just a bit too narrow.

[Mr_Bob]

Maybe something like "specialty to effect" blah.  Specialty wouldn't preclude other capabilities, and effect has broad applications that can mean a variety things.

[Unassuming Squid]

Why don't we change the field to "Specialty" instead of "Ability"? For example, "Specialty: Manipulation of Nuclear Fusion," or "Specialty: Flying Through the Sky."

[Tengukami]

After reading the thread, I now have an accurate measure of how bored the average Touhou fan is. Bored to the extent of debating five words for over fifty posts. However, I am waiting for someone else to tell me this is nothing compared to past discussions.

"People are actively discussing something that does not interest me; boy they sure must be bored!"

Why don't we change the field to "Specialty" instead of "Ability"? For example, "Specialty: Manipulation of Nuclear Fusion," or "Specialty: Flying Through the Sky."

I think Squid's on the right track here. While I've already made a couple suggestions so far, I really do like this idea here - the concept ZUN was trying to get across might be further fleshed out by changing that noun.

[iK]

Wait, couldn't we just go the old  Reimu/Genji translation route here?

"Abilities: Mostly the ability to find saught-for items"

Mostly implies it is their specialty while also leaving leeway for other powers to exist.

[Cosmosis]

If I were really bored, I would be replying to every post in this thread. Sorry that not everyone can find linguistics and localization interesting.

Linguistics is great and all, but I don't think these five words are interesting enough to raise a full-scale debate over their phrasing. The bottom line is characters have the ability to do something, but to an ambiguous degree. They may also have other abilities. You already get the message in a weird and awkward way with the literal translation, which uses very simple and direct wording. I understand you seek to keep the awkwardness in English by finding some close equivalent, but then you begin to mean something else as well. "Encompassing" can mean expertise or proficiency, "including" suggests there are other abilities. And then for those which adhere to the meaning, you give up sounding cool. I am unconvinced there is a better balance between the two than the literal translation.

I realize I have fallen into the trap of being bored enough to contribute my own opinion to the debate, but in my defense, I was provoked. I think the person who raised this whole discussion is watching in his comfortable armchair right now, pleased at much ado over nothing. I would feel ashamed at giving such a troll his daily enjoyment, although I know this happens all the time on 4chan.

[Tengukami]

I realize I have fallen into the trap of being bored enough to contribute my own opinion to the debate, but in my defense, I was provoked. I think the person who raised this whole discussion is watching in his comfortable armchair right now, pleased at much ado over nothing. I would feel ashamed at giving such a troll his daily enjoyment, although I know this happens all the time on 4chan.

How on earth were you provoked? If this discussion doesn't interest you, ignore the thread. Dropping in twice now to say you don't think it's worth talking about is thread-shitting.

[Unassuming Squid]

I realize I have fallen into the trap of being bored enough to contribute my own opinion to the debate, but in my defense, I was provoked. I think the person who raised this whole discussion is watching in his comfortable armchair right now, pleased at much ado over nothing. I would feel ashamed at giving such a troll his daily enjoyment, although I know this happens all the time on 4chan.

There isn't really a reason to be defensive, dude. If you don't care about the conversation just move on out of it. Don't respond. Go to some other thread. Nobody's holding a gun to your head and making you type out a response, so no need to act like it.

And resorting to the age-old and flawed statement of "the person who started this must be a troll" is kinda stupid, especially when you don't know who you're talking about. NForza is not a troll, as I have known in my year+ of being here. Tosiaki is...stubborn and overly defensive, but not a troll. Do a bit of research before making assumptions, eh?

[Iced Fairy]

After reviewing the thread I think the best choice is solidly Abilities Including.  Most of the other suggestions indicate that the power is the persons strongest power, or that most of their powers fall within that sphere.  Unless you think Miko's attacks are all based on her ability to listen to ten people at the same time, these connotations are wrong.  If your goal is to accurately convey the translation as explained without adding extra meanings that aren't indicated in the original, Abilities Including is the correct choice.

Now it seems the hang up is it needs to be worded in an awkward manner.  I think this is kinda dumb, because most of the abilities that aren't cut and dry are worded in a staggeringly awkward manner already.  But if you want awkward, "Abilities including the power to" or "Abilities incorporating the capacity to" if you're feeling like really mangling the English language should be miserable to the ear while still conveying no more or less then what seems to be ZUN's intent.  Assuming the explanations given here are legit.

[KrackoCloud]

After reviewing the thread I think the best choice is solidly Abilities Including.  Most of the other suggestions indicate that the power is the persons strongest power, or that most of their powers fall within that sphere.  Unless you think Miko's attacks are all based on her ability to listen to ten people at the same time, these connotations are wrong.

I always figured the powers were their specialties, slash-most of their powers fall within that sphere. Otherwise, why would ZUN have specified those particular powers?

I don't think spell cards should be a basis for figuring out how a character's ability works. Spell cards are just magical techniques, aren't they? The very fact that someone can copy someone else's spell cards suggests that the spell card system relies mostly on just magic capability and not special powers. Even the spell card rules suggest this, saying that it is a competition where "the use of full abilities is to be denied" and that the "most beautiful one wins."

That being said, I do think "abilities including" is still a decent translation. But is it too broad or vague? Of course, ambiguity is supposed to be important.

I am also starting to think that "specialty" is a good translation because it can be used for both the broken powers like fate manipulation, as well as the mundane things like "swordsmanship" that don't necessarily seem like particularly supernatural or special "abilities."

... At this point, I am just throwing around feedback. I can't say I'm holding on to a particular side right now.

[Unassuming Squid]

Not to toot my own horn, but I think "specialty" is the best option thus far for what we want to convey.

On another note, I want to mention something that I'm not sure if I stated in this discussion, but I know was in the discussion I had at the wiki.

The wiki is, as far as I'm aware, the sole English resource for new fans looking for information on Touhou. If someone starts out like I did and is only passively interested in finding out what it's all about, are they really going to be willing to stumble over something like "ability to the extent of" or "abilities incorporating the capacity to" when it shows up in every single page? Or might that awkwardness be a potential turn-off for someone interested in getting into the fandom, an implication that the people involved in this don't really know what they're doing? It's already awkward enough, in my opinion, that the English wiki has you mouse over Japanese text to get translations for character titles and song names and has Japanese text mounted on the top of the infobox over the English translation of the character's name. I think too many more awkward or unnecessary additions or changes like this are going to be much more detrimental than beneficial.

Personally I'd like to make sure everything in the infobox is a source of quick, simple, and concise information for a new person looking into Touhou. The more streamlined and less confusing or time-consuming we can make everything in that section of each character page, the better, in my opinion.

[iK]

On a related off topic note to the Miko spell card thing- I can only deduce that Miko is, besides a saint and a shikaisen, in actuality, a wizard, for being able to create a set of named attacks specifically within a rule system she is not aware of, within minutes of her Resurrection.


Also yay for support for my "Abilities Including" suggestion.

[Iced Fairy]

I always figured the powers were their specialties, slash-most of their powers fall within that sphere. Otherwise, why would ZUN have specified those particular powers?

Specialties would be a correct word, it just also carries other connotations as well.  Once again moving back to the Miko example, hearing ten people is her signature power.  However given her abilities it's pretty obvious she's very skilled in taoist magic and since there aren't many ways to vary listening to ten people at the same time, it's inevitable that most of her abilities would be in another field.

And I'd suggest "Signature Ability" as another possible wording, but that'd get shot down for "not being close enough to the original wording."  Which brings me to...

The wiki is, as far as I'm aware, the sole English resource for new fans looking for information on Touhou. If someone starts out like I did and is only passively interested in finding out what it's all about, are they really going to be willing to stumble over something like "ability to the extent of" or "abilities incorporating the capacity to" when it shows up in every single page? Or might that awkwardness be a potential turn-off for someone interested in getting into the fandom, an implication that the people involved in this don't really know what they're doing? It's already awkward enough, in my opinion, that the English wiki has you mouse over Japanese text to get translations for character titles and song names and has Japanese text mounted on the top of the infobox over the English translation of the character's name. I think too many more awkward or unnecessary additions or changes like this are going to be much more detrimental than beneficial.

I pretty much agree with all of this.  This debate is sacrificing ease of use for no appreciable gain in understanding.  Anyone wandering onto the wiki will have to read through the talk pages to understand that this wording change is because of a minor linguistic issue instead of base incompetence.  This is especially an issue because no one seemed to be making the mistake that the change is attempting to avoid or at least there wasn't a noticeable difference between English speakers making that mistake and native Japanese speakers making that mistake.

As an example since I just got off the wiki :

Species    Half-human half-yuurei
Abilities    Ability to the extent of handling sword techniques

If I were to wander into the wiki as a newbie and get this as my introduction to Youmu I'd seriously question the quality of the site.  This doesn't look like it was translated by someone who knows English.

...And I should probably dust off my wiki account and just state it there.

[Polaris]

I personally like the "to the extent" translation, but for an alternative, how about putting "to some extent" at the end? Something along the lines of (using Rumia as an example) "Ability to manipulate darkness to some extent." Or "to an extent" or "to a certain extent".

[Iced Fairy]

I personally like the "to the extent" translation, but for an alternative, how about putting "to some extent" at the end? Something along the lines of (using Rumia as an example) "Ability to manipulate darkness to some extent." Or "to an extent" or "to a certain extent".

I think that once again adding more bad connotations then it fixes but at least it isn't terrible English.  It would be easily ignored.

[Unassuming Squid]

I personally like the "to the extent" translation, but for an alternative, how about putting "to some extent" at the end? Something along the lines of (using Rumia as an example) "Ability to manipulate darkness to some extent." Or "to an extent" or "to a certain extent".

Well, I think that's going to work even less than the current one, because for one thing it implies that there is a limitation to their powers, which is the exact opposite of what we want, and for another it's not universally applicable. "Ability to destroy absolutely anything to an extent" doesn't really work, for example.

[Polaris]

Well personally I think the connotation changes with the rearrangement?if we take Rumia's ability again for example:
Originally it would be "Ability to the extent of manipulating darkness," which implies that manipulating darkness is the limit of what she can do.
But if we change it to "Ability to manipulate darkness to some extent", this implies that her ability is to manipulate darkness, but there's some sort of limit that's vaguely defined and open to interpretation. We know that Rumia's ability has a pretty low extent, but it can still be interpreted with a high one.

[_cf]

And I'd suggest "Signature Ability" as another possible wording, but that'd get shot down for "not being close enough to the original wording."  Which brings me to...

Signature Ability sounds perfect, but it would be shot down for "being better than the original". As in, it describes the situation with more clarity than ZUN's intentionally murky text does. And we cannot accept this.

I pretty much agree with all of this.  This debate is sacrificing ease of use for no appreciable gain in understanding.  Anyone wandering onto the wiki will have to read through the talk pages to understand that this wording change is because of a minor linguistic issue instead of base incompetence.  This is especially an issue because no one seemed to be making the mistake that the change is attempting to avoid or at least there wasn't a noticeable difference between English speakers making that mistake and native Japanese speakers making that mistake.

As an example since I just got off the wiki :

[ommited baka text (tn: baka means stupid)]

If I were to wander into the wiki as a newbie and get this as my introduction to Youmu I'd seriously question the quality of the site.  This doesn't look like it was translated by someone who knows English.

...And I should probably dust off my wiki account and just state it there.

I agree, the wiki is all over the place right now, sometimes seemingly for the sake of change alone. It irks me to the end of the world that some texts that were in Japanese are now in English (Sumizome -> Ink Black) while others that were in English are now in Japanese (Ghost -> Yuurei). It's pretty much the exact same incompetent fansubber mindset that produces Just according to the keikaku (tn: Keikaku means plan) and I'm not seeing this getting any better. It's kind of depressing, in fact.

[Zil]

If I were to wander into the wiki as a newbie and get this as my introduction to Youmu I'd seriously question the quality of the site.  This doesn't look like it was translated by someone who knows English.

This was pretty much my impression when I first saw the current translation, to be honest.

As far as my own humble opinion goes, my favorite suggestion so far would be "signature ability." By saying they have a signature ability you're implying they've got other abilities too, and I think it has a fairly unique quality to it, simply in that most people would have expected it to just say "ability." Also the implication that they have other powers in such an innocuous fashion does have a bit of ZUN's intentional ambiguity, I think.

[Tengukami]

Well personally I think the connotation changes with the rearrangement?if we take Rumia's ability again for example:
Originally it would be "Ability to the extent of manipulating darkness," which implies that manipulating darkness is the limit of what she can do.
But if we change it to "Ability to manipulate darkness to some extent", this implies that her ability is to manipulate darkness, but there's some sort of limit that's vaguely defined and open to interpretation. We know that Rumia's ability has a pretty low extent, but it can still be interpreted with a high one.

But that actually changes the meaning. "Ability to manipulate darkness to some extent" means her ability to manipulate darkness is limited. While this is true, what the phrase "ability to the extent of manipulating darkness" means is that her particular skill set extends as far as manipulating darkness.

So "signature ability" would be much closer to the mark - "signature" connotes the ability the character is known for, which gives you an idea of the range and extent of ability that character has.

[Iced Fairy]

Welp, I dusted off my wiki account and commented.  Now to light a candle in penance for the pain Momiji will be receiving from me kicking the hornets nest.

Oh and just as a prideful question, does anyone here actually have an issue with "Signature Ability?"  I'm sure it won't fly wiki side but I'm curious as to how big the rift is MotKs thoughts.

[Polaris]

The way the Japanese is written I'm interpreting it more as the ability to xxx with varying degrees of strength as opposed to the ability to xxx along with other unspecified stuff ?_? It's not really clear to me what 程度 is supposed to be so I hope someone can clarify.

[Unassuming Squid]

I'm good with "Signature Ability." The more I look at it the more I realize it's pretty much what I suggested, just...slightly more awesome-sounding, I guess. And makes it more clear that this is their special thing they can do, not the extent of their abilities.

[KrackoCloud]

Oh and just as a prideful question, does anyone here actually have an issue with "Signature Ability?"  I'm sure it won't fly wiki side but I'm curious as to how big the rift is MotKs thoughts.

The only problem is that it might be misinterpreted to mean that the character uses this ability often, or that it's the center-point for everything. Same goes for "Specialty."

How about "Special Ability?" 'Special' implies that it is specific to the character in some way, but doesn't hold the same center-point connotation of 'Signature.'
But if we did that, how does it make it any different from 'Ability?'

... Oh, I don't know anymore! Honestly, there is a character whose ability-to-the-extent-of is an exception for every translation, isn't there?

[Drake]

The way the Japanese is written I'm interpreting it more as the ability to xxx with varying degrees of strength as opposed to the ability to xxx along with other unspecified stuff ?_? It's not really clear to me what 程度 is supposed to be so I hope someone can clarify.

http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,12464.msg817524.html#msg817524

How about "Special Ability?" 'Special' implies that it is specific to the character in some way, but doesn't hold the same center-point connotation of 'Signature.'
But if we did that, how does it make it any different from 'Ability?'

But the specificness of special is why I wouldn't go for it. When you have abilities that many characters can do or abilities that don't really work well, "special" is sort of lost. I'm leaning towards "Signature", although in some cases it ends up being slightly odd, such as with Yuuka, since her noted magical ability is not her actual signature, per se.

[iK]

!

What if the wiki pages were changed to have an "Powers and Abilities" Section added near the appearance and other Character Design aspects? The bios of the character on the right of the page could simply be changed back to "Manipulation of X" without the attempted translation for the sake of appealing to newcomers looking for information on the characters. The "Abilities" section could elaborate on the extent to which their primary ability is used, and what other powers show up in-game or story-wise.

The point of the wiki is to inform first and foremost, not to indulge in the vagueness that is ZUN's diction.

[Iced Fairy]

The only problem is that it might be misinterpreted to mean that the character uses this ability often, or that it's the center-point for everything. Same goes for "Specialty."

Is there a character this is untrue for?  I mean, Kogasa is centered around Surprising people even if she fails at it.

[Unassuming Squid]

What if the wiki pages were changed to have an "Powers and Abilities" Section added near the appearance and other Character Design aspects? The bios of the character on the right of the page could simply be changed back to "Manipulation of X" without the attempted translation for the sake of appealing to newcomers looking for information on the characters. The "Abilities" section could elaborate on the extent to which their primary ability is used, and what other powers show up in-game or story-wise.

The point of the wiki is to inform first and foremost, not to indulge in the vagueness that is ZUN's diction.

I haven't expressly suggested that, but I have mentioned that the infoboxes are for quick reference of information and any elaboration or convoluted information should be saved for the main article. That was during my argument with Tosiaki, though, so it was probably glossed over.

I would be all for doing that, myself. I think we've got something good with "Special/Signature Ability," though.

[iK]

Rumia's "Specialty" may be darkness control, but you wouldn't know that from her spellcards :V