Semi-major revision on an important facet of the official materials - Need Input

[Zil]

Just how awkward should it be? So strange that nobody would ever normally say it, or slightly odd, or somewhere between?

[N-Forza]

Somewhere in between. Something that would be kind of weird at first, but you'd get used to the more you see it.

[Tengukami]

"Has magical powers insofar as X"

?

[Firestorm29]

Is Capable of the ability of X.

I think I like this one. What do you guys think, it's sorta close to what the Kanji implies and doesn't feel  as clumsy to me like "Ability to the extent of.X."
Though I'm also teetering that perhaps this template idea isn't going to translate well into English no matter what we do, sorta like many puns. Though,
we did get Sanaelate from a pun even though it isn't exactly what the pun was so...

+ Maybe "Capable of abilities like X" perhaps as a second option?

[Chronopolis]

How about "Ability encompassing ~"? As in "Ability encompassing the manipulation of borders" or "Ability encompassing Eternity"

[N-Forza]

I actually like the sound of that. It's overblown but not too nonsensical.

[Drake]

"Encompassing" seems to be a nice word, but I think it would be proper to say "Abilities encompassing" rather than "Ability encompassing", since "ability" in this wording sort of denotes a "level of general prowess" which is one entity and can't really "encompass" things. Truly it isn't that big a deal and it could easily be either one, but I thought I'd throw in my linguistic-two-cents.

[iK]

I still like the sound of "Abilities including  manipulation of flowers" more than "Encompassing," but it's acceptable.

[haoreos2]

Doesn't "encompassing" imply total mastery over that aspect? "Ability encompassing magic" would imply Marisa can do anything that falls under the demesne of magic, from elementalism to automancy to turning spellcards into sportscards.

[Drake]

Abilities encompassing the use of Magic. Her ability isn't "magic" or "the ability of magic" or such that would make the phrasing problematic.
And yes, "ability encompassing" might imply absolute control depending on the rest of the phrase, but "abilities encompassing" does not since "abilities" is inherently a collection rather than a single entity, as I mentioned above.

[haoreos2]

Being a collective wouldn't make a difference, I think, since "abilities encompassing" just means that collectivelly those abilities encompass the subject. As an analogy: "the kid ate my lunch" vs "the kids ate my lunch"; regardless of how many kids are involved, the lunch has been eaten.


("Abilities involving the manipulation of X", since it doesn't imply any sort of omnipotence in that field, and is wonderfully vague.)

[KrackoCloud]

Maybe "abilities related to"?
Like "abilities related to [the] manipulation of fate." It's pretty vague but still makes sense and doesn't suggest mastery or anything.

[_cf]

I never saw another term as precise as the awkward "ability to the extent of" to define what the Touhous actually do.

Case in point, Marisa and Alice (and Youmu/Yuyuko) slow down time just fine in IN. Whatever translation the wiki decides to use should reflect this.

[Unassuming Squid]

Case in point, Marisa and Alice (and Youmu/Yuyuko) slow down time just fine in IN. Whatever translation the wiki decides to use should reflect this.

It seems infinitely more likely that Sakuya and Yukari froze the night and MAlice and Yuyumu went out to see what was up. Buuut that's not a discussion for here.

As someone who tends to be very particular with word choice, I like 'Capable of x' and 'Abilities encompassing x' or 'Abilities related to x'. More so the last one. It lets people  take the ability to crazy extents as ZUN himself probably intended.

[_cf]

It seems infinitely more likely that Sakuya and Yukari froze the night and MAlice and Yuyumu went out to see what was up. Buuut that's not a discussion for here.

See, this is the kind of perfectly valid assumption that creates better stories, but that's directly contradicted by source material.

Yuyuko, to Marisa: "We are the ones who froze the night, but..."

Marisa, to Reimu: "You're right.
The endless night, stealing the full moon,
Hiding the human village,
and putting hats on stone statues,
It's all Alice's fault. Now, get out of the way!"

As you can clearly see, there's no limit to what people trained in magic can do. Even putting hats on stone statues.  :yukkuri:

Also, who keeps changing the text on the wiki? I'm pretty sure that there was a "Bitch, get out of the way." mentioned at that point.

[Dizzy H. "Muffin" Muffin]

I'm pretty sure that there was a "Bitch, get out of the way." mentioned at that point.

I'm pretty sure that the swearing wasn't remotely accurate.

[Unassuming Squid]

Also, who keeps changing the text on the wiki? I'm pretty sure that there was a "Bitch, get out of the way." mentioned at that point.

Lots of translations that have been well-established for years are being changed. I do not know why this is, myself, and commented on the wiki about how detrimental it is to the English-speaking fandom when well-established terms are suddenly switched around without warning or consultation. I don't speak Japanese at all, but I'd like some warning before people go 'oh hey, we've decided this is invalid now'.

I'm glad, at least, that this is getting some fan input.

[Tengukami]

Lots of translations that have been well-established for years are being changed. I do not know why this is, myself

I'm hoping it's because there's some major housecleaning going on. I would prefer one giant sweep through everything rather than a bunch of pedantic, hair-splitting little spittle-fests between different wiki users on many different pages.

[Drake]

Personally I was one for changing the whole "bitch" translation. Given the situation of the dialogue and the rhetorically pleasing phrasing and the liberty of translation, I can totally see why it was translated as such. However, it got to the point where, because nobody else in the series has dialogue translated to cussing (sry comma splice), it became a hugely popular quote that kept being passed off as literal and the passage became this sort of character-defining trait, which is why I'm against it.

[_cf]

I'm pretty sure that the swearing wasn't remotely accurate.

WARNING: I'm about to write in a language I barely master to express an opinion about the translation of a language I barely understand. How sad is that?

Anyway, didn't the original translator take some creative liberties to show how aggressive that choice of phrasing was?

I understand that japanese as spoken by girls (and specially a refined girl like Alice) is much more polite than we can represent here in the occident without the text sounding very artificial. So, if the translator sanely lowers the general politeness level so that the girls are talking in a natural way for us, then he has a problem when he gets to 邪魔だ、そこをどけ！

That I understand as a very harsh, direct order. But maybe its natural translation "You're in my way, move out!" just lacks the impact it should have, because everybody is already being less polite in general. Then he added a swearword, to give some punch back to the text. This is how I understand the original translation now. I can plainly see that the current translation is more faithful to the original words, but I'm not sure if it's more faithful to the original intent.

[Unassuming Squid]

I'm hoping it's because there's some major housecleaning going on. I would prefer one giant sweep through everything rather than a bunch of pedantic, hair-splitting little spittle-fests between different wiki users on many different pages.

Unfortunately, with what I see as a complete lack of communication, it seems more like the latter than the former. I can hope, though.

because nobody else in the series has dialogue translated to cussing

Keine in SakuRemi's scenario: It's you. The bastards planning to attack the village at midnight.

Also, Remi's line "Hmph. Is it the brats' night out?" has "hmph" changed to "shit" in my copy of IN. So at least there, it's been translated as such.

That said, I will agree with _cf's statement. That seems like a likely explanation, and in my opinion seems perfectly reasonable.

[Firestorm29]

Unfortunately, with what I see as a complete lack of communication, it seems more like the latter than the former. I can hope, though.

I've sorta been having the same problem, I think part of it is that these discussions have been happening over several Talk pages. Heck, I just learned that there was a Talk page under the Revisions page that discusses why the change was made to Yuyuko's Theme from Bloom Nobly, Cherry Blossoms of Sumizome ~ Border of Life to Bloom Nobly, Ink-black Cherry Blossoms ~ Border of Life was due to an old poem that the title appear s to be refferencing (linky: Bloom Nobly, Ink-black Cherry Blossoms ~ Border of Life).

I think a large problem is that unless you've been in the know, it looks like tons of random changes are being made although there is logic behind the changes, it's just hidden in lots of talk pages. So, if you're someone who just uses the wiki as a reference point... you're probably going to be very lost.

Personally, I think it might be of some help to centralize these discussions, or atleast have some links to help point people to what's going on.

[haoreos2]

Frankly, I really liked Marisa's "bitch, get out of the way" line. Twas so unexpected it made me laugh for a good minute (it helped that my reading rate made it sync perfectly with the music).
Then again, I took it as the female version of referring to a friend as an asshole thing, so it didn't seem particularly harsh. Remilia's swearing line just seemed out of place by comparison, and "hmph" would've been less jarring imo.

Marisa, to Reimu: "You're right.
The endless night, stealing the full moon,
Hiding the human village,
and putting hats on stone statues,
It's all Alice's fault. Now, get out of the way!"

As you can clearly see, there's no limit to what people trained in magic can do. Even putting hats on stone statues.  :yukkuri:

To each their own, but that sounds pretty sarcastic to me. Heck, two of those things they unambiguously didn't do.

[_cf]

To each their own, but that sounds pretty sarcastic to me. Heck, two of those things they unambiguously didn't do.

Please, mind the Yukkuri face. I rarely say something in a totally serious mood, but when it gets too silly, I add some indication for the audience's sake. Still, the point remains, the witches totally stopped the night in their scenario. Here, I'll copy the less ambiguous bit of dialogue that proves it:

Reimu: "Well, I was beginning to wonder why the night won't end... So it was you, Marisa!"

Marisa, pointing to Alice: "Hey, don't get me wrong. The villain is this person over here."

Alice, sporting a huge ZUN waterdrop: "What!? Didn't you commit the same offense, Marisa?"

[Zil]

I'm pretty sure it's implied that time is slowed by whomever you happen to be playing as, which is also the only way Kaguya's blithering during her Last Spells at the end makes any sense.

Also I think the discussion is veering a bit off-topic here. :derp:

[haoreos2]

(Oh, I'm not saying they didn't slow the night, just that the earlier quote struck me as a jest. I assumed the yukkuri was in reference to the stonehatjoke)

Also I think the discussion is veering a bit off-topic here. :derp:

In TARC? Surely you jest. :flowerpower:

In any case, suggestions thus far:

• Ability to the extent of
• Ability rising to the greatness of
• Ability achieving max power at
• Greatest Achievement
• Best ability
• Comprehension and utilization of
• Ability reaching the level of
• Ability to realize the power of
• Ability sufficient to realize/reach the power of
• Capability to
• Capable of
• Innate skill
• Ability including
• Power: is skilled at
• Power: talents include
• Power: specializes in
• Powerful enough to
• Magically adept enough to
• Has magical powers insofar as
• Is Capable of the ability of
• Abilities encompassing
• Abilities including
• Abilities involving the manipulation of
• Abilities related to

(personally I like "involving" or "related to")

[N-Forza]

Also, Remi's line "Hmph. Is it the brats' night out?" has "hmph" changed to "shit" in my copy of IN. So at least there, it's been translated as such.

Yes, this was a flat-out error. ふん can mean "hmph" or a POLITE word for poop. I see it all the time on "Pick up after your dog." signs here. However, in context, it means "hmph".

Basically, whoever did the patch translation wasn't nearly as thorough as the ones who did the patches for the more recent ones. This is a sad fact for most of the early materials, so pretty much any change to them, even correcting blatant errors, can be misconstrued as unnecessary changing of established materials.

[Unassuming Squid]

For those who want to keep updated on the matter, there is still ongoing discussion on the talk page previously posted. At the moment I'm kind of arguing with Tosiaki, but it's discussion, at least.

EDIT: Or not, nevermind. My apologies if it was out of line to link that.

Yes, this was a flat-out error. ふん can mean "hmph" or a POLITE word for poop. I see it all the time on "Pick up after your dog." signs here. However, in context, it means "hmph".

Basically, whoever did the patch translation wasn't nearly as thorough as the ones who did the patches for the more recent ones. This is a sad fact for most of the early materials, so pretty much any change to them, even correcting blatant errors, can be misconstrued as unnecessary changing of established materials.

I did think it was kind of out-of-character for her to say "shit." Glad to know, at least, that blatant error is fixed.

Honestly, for certain things, I recognize that there are blatant errors (U.N. Owen Was Her? is not proper English, for example; U.N. Owen Was She? or She Was U.N. Owen? would be more appropriate). However, in some cases it seems like changing them is more detrimental than anything, errors or not. Song titles seem to be the biggest problem here, as changing them can screw up searches for arrangements, since most people that I'm aware of search the English name rather than the Japanese name. It's something my music channel has hinged on as well.

[Tengukami]

Honestly, for certain things, I recognize that there are blatant errors (U.N. Owen Was Her? is not proper English, for example; U.N. Owen Was She? or She Was U.N. Owen? would be more appropriate). However, in some cases it seems like changing them is more detrimental than anything, errors or not. Song titles seem to be the biggest problem here, as changing them can screw up searches for arrangements, since most people that I'm aware of search the English name rather than the Japanese name. It's something my music channel has hinged on as well.

This reminds me of classic descriptivists vs. prescriptivists. In a nutshell, descriptivists believe language should be studied as it is actually spoken, even when it breaks grammar rules, while prescriptivists believe pre-established grammar rules must always be adhered to. Only in this case, the "grammar" would be the Japanese text. Is it more important to translate it as the phrasing that it's known to be in the daily language of the fans, or the change the translation to be more literal? Personally, my vote would be to change as little as possible; correcting blatant errors that change the meaning entirely, sure, but changing the English translation of certain already well-known passages isn't going to make people start using them, and it's hard to understand why you'd even need to, if it doesn't alter the meaning that much.

[Cosmosis]

After reading the thread, I now have an accurate measure of how bored the average Touhou fan is. Bored to the extent of debating five words for over fifty posts. However, I am waiting for someone else to tell me this is nothing compared to past discussions.

I suppose keeping things the way they are now is out of the picture. I have to toss in my vote for "comprehension and utilization of" just because there are two long words in the phrase, making the sentence appear more sophisticated than necessary. Mine would be "has exerted some level of proficiency at", although I am straying from the original meaning.