Author Topic: ZUN starts taking interest in religion (Read 26749 times)

Excelsus · « **Reply #60 on:** February 09, 2012, 04:55:49 PM »

Quote from: Darth_Sirov on February 08, 2012, 04:04:10 PM

Closest Christianity has ever been is with Byakuren and Ichirin, the former is often called the You-Christ due to her balance aspect between youkais & humans and saving the youkais from the humans; while the latter looks like a nun.

No it is either, yumemi, or the nameless girl that appears in the music cd, but it seems that zun has yet to cover both of them

Unassuming Squid · « **Reply #61 on:** February 09, 2012, 05:26:14 PM »

I really, really doubt there's going to be any kind of actual war in Gensokyo. The closest we've come to that is the Great Fairy War and pretty much nobody cared about that. It didn't even get off the ground.

ZUN does not go for sweeping intense conflicts. The most serious and mature things he's done have been Medicine in general, Utsuho wanting to turn the surface world into a sun, and Tenshi killing ghosts and causing potentially lethal earthquakes. 99% of the time with these games, Reimu flies over to meet whoever's stirring stuff up and gives them a scolding and a whack over the back of the head, and then everything's taken care of. No intense drama, no titanic conflict, no upheaval of Gensokyo's order aside from Reimu having to go meet these people and tell them "this is how we do things in Gensokyo, so calm your jets".

If the way ZUN has done these things in the past is an indication of anything, the Taoists and the Buddhists aren't going to have an all-out war. They'll have a rivalry and they'll glare at each other from the other end of the table, but they're not going to whip out claymores and splash war paint on their faces while shouting "FREEEEEEEDOOOOOOOOM"*. The Hakurei Shrine and the Moriya Shrine had a brief spat, but now it's just a rivalry. They haven't attempted to obliterate each other from the face of Gensokyo because that's not how ZUN has built his world. That isn't how Gensokyo works. That isn't how ZUN's canon works. That isn't how ZUN works.

*That said I am all for Braveheart: Gensokyo Edition.

Tengukami · « **Reply #62 on:** February 09, 2012, 06:57:12 PM »

Quote from: Unassuming Squid on February 09, 2012, 05:26:14 PM

*That said I am all for Braveheart: Gensokyo Edition.

Yes! Or, playing off the angle in UFO, a humans v. youkai spat at several different locations after the REAL origin of the spellcard rules is brought to light.

Tiamat · « **Reply #63 on:** February 13, 2012, 10:15:29 PM »

The myouren temple possibly wants even MORE peace than how most of Gensokyo runs right now, judging from the latest translated chapter of Wild and Horned Hermit (Mamizou tells Reimu that some youkai should be allowed to fully live in peace (possibly even beyond the mock duels that currently exist), although seeing how they'll be able to do that and reconcile with the fact that youkai are supposed to attack humans to exist could be interesting). If they went to "war", it'd mostly be in self-defense and even then really really reluctantly.

...although I'm sure some kind of conflict is brewing. Though honestly, I think Symposium of Post Mysticism IS that conflict (isn't it like, a debate of the religions against each other, after all?)

Firestorm29 · « **Reply #64 on:** February 15, 2012, 12:50:21 AM »

I thought in Touhou lore, if they don't exercise their power more, then they'll lose it. Hence being the whole reason for the spellcard system in the first place.

Sophilia · « **Reply #65 on:** February 15, 2012, 01:34:55 AM »

It's even worse than that. Youkai not making a show of their power leads to them actually ceasing to exist since humans stop believing in them. It's why Gensokyo exists at all, really, to give youkai a place where they can be believed in. At the same time, the humans also need to have a protection against youkai powers since if the youkai go wild, they can easily wipe out the source of their existence. "That youkai can easily cause incidents, and that humans can easily resolve them" is just formalizing the relationship that the youkai need to have to survive.

Starxsword · « **Reply #66 on:** February 15, 2012, 07:43:27 AM »

If you believe what Reimu says, then it should go like this. That is if you believe her, since two pages later, you find out that she is slightly biased.

Tiamat · « **Reply #67 on:** February 15, 2012, 04:35:29 PM »

Reimu's merely stating something that's been stated ever since Perfect Memento in more clear terms. The idea that youkai must attack humans and humans must fear youkai for youkai to exist at all is implied in Perfect Memento many times (if not outright stated. I forget, but at the very least, it uses something analogous to that). Of course, Akyu could be mistaken, but this is also outright stated by Yukari in Cage in Lunatic Runagate from her own perspective (IE, far as she knows, it's not a lie)

...that said, Yukari tends to think in very subjective terms (she flat out says to herself there's a scientific reason for the moon's rotation but she'll go by another one because the scientific reason is boring. ...then again, thinking that there's an alternative reason besides a scientific one is the basis for youkai's existance in the first place, allegedly).

Memorizable Gensokyo's author's note has the artist gushing about how Yukari's "learning so much about youkai". Me personally, I take that to mean it was Yukari who found out and came up with that youkai need to make humans fear them to continue to exist, and passed that down to the Hieda family. Although again, from Yukari's own perspective, it does seem she sincerely believes this to be true.

However, (dragging my post back on topic), Mamizou and Shou have found ways to survive in the outside world. I'm not sure how Mamizou pulled it off (although I wouldn't be surprised if that turns out to be a plot point later on given how Wild and Horned Hermit is going), but Shou pulled it off by acting as an avatar for Bishamonten, I believe. In essence, there may be alternative ways for youkai to survive based on other religious beliefs besides Shinto. Thus, the Symposium of Post Mysticism where the various religious viewpoints clash. It's important to Gensokyo not because of the religions themselves, but because the religions could possibly show there's another way Gensokyo could run besides its current youkai-vs-human situation. I believe a lot of Symposium of Post Mysticism will be about how youkai could live alternative lifestyles from the current "duties" they have in Gensokyo, though of course we won't find out until the book is released (...evil delays).

As an aside, it's interesting that chapter 9 of Wild and Horned Hermit acknowledges that lately Reimu's been dealing with religious opponents instead of youkai ones (it's what caused Reimu to break into that rant about how youkai are supposed to cause incidents in order to exist. Her latest major opponents have been gods, buddhas, and saints, not typical youkai), so clearly ZUN is aware of all of this.

Maiden Synnae ミ☆ · « **Reply #68 on:** February 16, 2012, 12:08:52 AM »

Last Boss of the next game

That if we take kirishitans into account.

Drake · « **Reply #69 on:** February 16, 2012, 12:34:41 AM »

I'd think it would be pretty clear from Gensokyo's existence that if the belief in youkai being youkai were lost, the youkai would cease to exist. Gensokyo is founded on the principle that being that are forgotten in the outside world are whisked away to a place where other forgotten things thrive. If youkai, or gods, or anything, became unacknowledged in Gensokyo, they would simply cease to exist because they only exist through belief to begin with. The principle of gathering faith, as well, is precisely the same as the principle of youkai causing incidents. And reiterating the spell card rules, if youkai attacked humans enough that the human population in Gensokyo died, there would be no source of belief for the youkai to exist, so the youkai would die, and so the gods would also die. If all the youkai and other things died instead, Gensokyo's existence would become redundant due to everything being acknowledged to exist in the outside world. The spell card rules create a means with which youkai can affirm their existence and humans can equally resolve conflicts with youkai (along with weaker youkai - stronger youkai) and so on.

Tengukami · « **Reply #70 on:** February 16, 2012, 12:40:49 AM »

Yeah, I think the spellcard rules are a form of diplomacy between humans and youkai. Like if instead of war, we all agreed to have fighting political leaders have fencing matches or battle raps or something.

haoreos2 · « **Reply #71 on:** February 16, 2012, 01:12:14 AM »

I might've actually watched politics if that were the case. Political danceoffs are best danceoffs, and just once I'd like to see a nation reformed due to a round of air hockey.

iK · « **Reply #72 on:** February 16, 2012, 02:59:29 AM »

Kim Jong-Un,
Supreme leader of North Korea
And I'm in need'a A little sweeteh
Help lead an army of the people

A powerful young nation,
prosperous while ya'll are waitin'
to see and behold
the weapons we hold
Foreign policies may be tense
but our will is bold

Starxsword · « **Reply #73 on:** February 16, 2012, 04:02:58 AM »

I don't think it is all that obvious that youkai require humans to exist. This is because there are known cases in which youkai exist in the
outside world. We know that the Scarlet Devil Mansion only arrived to Gensokyo recently and so did Mamizou, so cases of youkai that exist
on the outside world are facts. I don't think it can be succinctly said that youkai will die without belief, at least not until I see proof it.

Tengukami · « **Reply #74 on:** February 16, 2012, 04:26:02 AM »

I don't see how youkai existing outside disproves anything. If we know there are youkai on the outside of Gensokyo, and we know there are youkai who move to Gensokyo for faith, then it stands to reason the ones on the outside have been able to acquire faith from some isolated pockets here and there. Kanako's official profile waxes poetic on this state of affairs, even.

haoreos2 · « **Reply #75 on:** February 16, 2012, 06:05:26 AM »

It could be a general thing, rather than operating on a per-youkai basis: it doesn't matter if people don't give faith to X youkai because people are giving faith to the concept of youkai as a whole.
I mean, it's not like every youkai in gensokyo has been part of an incident, and if you believe PMiSS only particular individual youkai actually get any attention among the human population.

Starxsword · « **Reply #76 on:** February 17, 2012, 08:08:08 AM »

We see Kanako move to Gensokyo because of faith reasons, but that is a god and not a youkai. Unless we follow Byakuren's theory that
Youkai and Gods are the same, or was it Byakuren's theory? I am not sure. We also see Remilia move to Gensokyo for unknown reasons.

The thing is, other than the general concept that Youkai move to Gensokyo because of belief. We never see any specific examples.

Perfect Momento in Strict Sense generally describes that youkai need to scare people to keep their power or something. This is also what Reimu
says, but she is biased since she also said that she cannot run a business(whatever this is) if Youkai don't go around creating incidents. She ate
her words soon afterwards though.

Tengukami · « **Reply #77 on:** February 17, 2012, 11:19:37 AM »

When talking about Kanako's story, it's to illustrate the need to move to Gensokyo to acquire faith; not that I believe she is a youkai. Just to be clear there.

haoreos2 · « **Reply #78 on:** February 17, 2012, 01:17:17 PM »

With gods in the series, it's pretty firmly established that the individual god needs to have faith directed at them specifically, or they will weaken and eventually cease to exist.
By contrast, some youkai come into being by being forgotten and abandoned for a hundred years, which would make sense if their fear/belief needs were more analogous to air than food (if it's there, it sustains all the youkai rather than each youkai needing to collect their own)

Tiamat · « **Reply #79 on:** February 17, 2012, 02:39:21 PM »

I'm not sure how it works for youkai that get sealed away from humans. They seem to do just fine though judging by all those folk that popped out of the underground or were met down there, however. Maybe being sealed away or exiling yourself comes with different rules or something. Even the oni were nigh forgotten in Gensokyo itself yet still exist.

Youkai do need individual belief, though. At least according to the narration, which is presumably one of the most reliable sources of all (check out Kyoku Kosodani's profile for Ten Desires. She had to enter the budhist discipline to find a new angle for her echos or else she wouldn't have been able to "keep her place as a youkai" or something like that).

Darth_Sirov · « **Reply #80 on:** February 17, 2012, 03:47:27 PM »

Being an Echo Youkai, she has to be able to "practice her profession", thus the sutra reading gives her said opportunity. Kogasa is another example, always trying to surprise people as that is her role.

Sophilia · « **Reply #81 on:** February 17, 2012, 07:03:18 PM »

I suppose the underlying question with the Underground is...can youkai belief in other youkai support their existence like it does for gods? People may believe in oni, but I'm pretty sure they weren't exchanging legends about Koishi or Byakuren...

Tiamat · « **Reply #82 on:** February 17, 2012, 08:42:23 PM »

Kogasa needs to surprise people not just cause she likes it, but because that's how she eats. I"m not sure if she'll go so far as starve to DEATH if she doesn't, though. This is from the Sanae A route

Kogasa: Well, there are youkai that eat meat,
and there are youkai who eat your spirit.
If you humans don't get surprised by me,
I'll get hungry.

As an aside, there's also this possibly telling bit of dialogue from that route:

Kogasa: Oh, what's the point of youkai who can't surprise people?

Sanae: Well, now, please don't get so down.

Kogasa: Maybe I should go back to being a normal umbrella ...

Sanae: I don't know if anyone would want an old umbrella
that looks like an eggplant ...

Kogasa: That's right, that's how I became an unwanted youkai.
Oh, such terrible old memories ... ...

I always took that to apply to every youkai. In Kyoku's case, if she can't get people to acknowledge her as a youkai instead of just an echo, then she'll become... well, just an echo.

(there's more from Sanae B's route, too. Like Kogasa saying "It's okay. This is how youkai get lonely and disappear." INterestingly enough, on an off-topic note, Kogasa apparently chose to become a youkai so she could get revenge on the human that threw her out, apparently)

Again, I'm not sure why sealed beings are able to do just fine. My guess is that once sealed away and exiled away by humans, it's impossible for them to be EXPLAINED away because their explanation is already there (They're sealed away. That's the explanation). However, that's just a guess. As an aside, I suspect the Scarlet Devil Mansion has separate "arrangements" (Perfect Memento states they live lives that are different from both youkai and humans) but am not sure about that. Even the mountain youkai, despite their imitation of the outside world, still attack humans though (Aya says in BAiJR that she never really saw humans as anything other than prey, and Perfect Memento also states that the tengu's annoying paparazzi activies is not only a way of attacking humans, but one of the most ferocious and feared ways. Of course, this is likely ZUN's sense of humour but it still stands, I think. Aya demonstrates her skill at "attacking" humans pretty well in Oriental Sacred Place when she reduces Reimu to a huge panicing mess over not reading her newspapers)

As for "collective belief", Byakuren's profile did state she had to keep youkai alive cause that's where her power to stay young stemmed from. It's the reason why she helped youkai in the first place (BEFORE she became sincerely sympathetic to them, she was only helping them because without youkai around, her youth magic wouldn't work)

From Byakuren's profile:

The only way to lose that black art was for Humanity to reject it entirely.
In other words, if youkai ceased to exist, she wouldn't be able to sustain her own power.
And so, she honored youkai.
She pretended to be a great youkai exterminator, but actually saved the youkai behind the scenes.

Again, I'm pretty sure Symposium of Post Mysticism is at least in part meant to explore alternative ways of youkai existing without attacking humans.

Sophilia · « **Reply #83 on:** February 18, 2012, 06:20:55 AM »

Quote from: Tiamat on February 17, 2012, 08:42:23 PM

INterestingly enough, on an off-topic note, Kogasa apparently chose to become a youkai so she could get revenge on the human that threw her out, apparently

Well, Perfect Memento says explicitly that tsukumogami like Kogasa are formed by pissing off the spirit residing in the object enough that it becomes animate for revenge. On the other hand, venerating and respecting the spirit can eventually release it to join the ranks of the gods.

Drake · « **Reply #84 on:** February 18, 2012, 07:50:00 AM »

Quote from: Sophilia on February 18, 2012, 06:20:55 AM

Well, Perfect Memento says explicitly that tsukumogami like Kogasa are formed by pissing off the spirit residing in the object enough that it becomes animate for revenge. On the other hand, venerating and respecting the spirit can eventually release it to join the ranks of the gods.

Yeah, look at it this way. If people consciously piss off a "spirit" residing in an object, at some point they might be thinking up a story where the object causes malicious events, like if there was a piece of moldy bread that nobody wanted to throw out, and people think up that the bread might supernaturally influence the growth of bacteria in other objects as revenge for being forgotten. That's potential for a youkai right there. But say instead, it was placed in a vaccuum bag and worshipped for being such a perfect piece of bread: venerating that piece of bread has, on a human level, lifted the piece of bread's status to that of a god. In essence, you are worshipping the piece of bread. In either case, both are solely human aspects, and both thrive on the concept of human belief. Fear that the bread might do something harmful (superstition), and faith that the piece of bread is awesome enough to be kept sacred (religious praise). The context Touhou takes is just an implementation of this principle.

Starxsword · « **Reply #85 on:** February 18, 2012, 10:32:31 AM »

Oni are probably very difficult to explain if the theory that forgotten is synonymous to non-existence. The oni were supposedly completely forgotten, but they exist, which should not happen. Immaterial and Missing Power was pretty much about how Suika wanted to oni to hang out above ground. Of course, from there, we find out that all customs of fighting oni are lost and oni are also completely forgotten. Yuyuko knows about oni, but that is because she has around for a long time.

Raikaria · « **Reply #86 on:** February 18, 2012, 11:09:05 AM »

Quote from: Excelsus on January 18, 2012, 09:26:07 AM

DO you know post-mysticism, ZUN' official fanbook released this january?Isnt the topic about religion? Wow, to think that touhou has a religion's war going around, it seems this is a serious book,but to me.... i think it's interesting approach. As he is a normal person, who never dwelled in theology. Means that im kinda curious what normal people tends to see about coexisting of the religion, and their disagreement between religion. Touhou seems to be a great choice. Gensokyo is still in an ancient time, so religion plays a big role here. But to use a game as a serious topic, dont you think it's a bit dangerous? Well to japanese people, whose religion didnt cover much about it, i think this will be an interesting topic.

The new book will contain information about the major religions in Gensokyo, because factions representing them have been pivitol to the last 2 games [UFO: Buddists, TD: Taoists], not to mention whatever Religion Kanako is [Kanakoism? Moriyaism?]

And ZUN's been making religious references since HRtP. He's hardly only just taken an interest in religion. Remillia has spellcards which are blatent religious references, so does Youmu. I think the only games not filled with at least one religious reference are IN, PoDD, and maybe SoEW

HRtP: Sariel; an Angel of Death
SoEW: Not played enough to know
PoDD: I think this dosen't have a blatent one
LLS: Kurumi and her lake of blood, not to mention the EX Boss.
MS: Shinki.

EoSD: Remillia
PCB: Youmu has several references
IN: None that I know of, unless one of Keine's Crisis cards are based on a religion. Let's not count the fact Remillia is in the game, and Youmu. :V
PoFV: Shikieiki is a judge of the dead. That links with quite a few religious concepts. [Such as Anubis, who judged the dead]
MoF: Herp it's about Religion.
SA: Orin's Thousand Needle Mountain
UFO: Herp it's about Buddists and a Karakasa/Nue
TD: It's about Taoists.

Tiamat · « **Reply #87 on:** February 18, 2012, 03:39:01 PM »

Quote from: Starxsword on February 18, 2012, 10:32:31 AM

Oni are probably very difficult to explain if the theory that forgotten is synonymous to non-existence. The oni were supposedly completely forgotten, but they exist, which should not happen. Immaterial and Missing Power was pretty much about how Suika wanted to oni to hang out above ground. Of course, from there, we find out that all customs of fighting oni are lost and oni are also completely forgotten. Yuyuko knows about oni, but that is because she has around for a long time.

Like I keep saying, there's likely some other law or effect in place when it comes to youkai that are sealed away. Suika specifically states in Immaterial and Missing Power (or... somewhere) that she's only going to be in Gensokyo temporarily, and it's also stated in her ending (...or somewhere) that one of the (possible?) reasons she was unable to bring the oni up to Gensokyo to follow her was due to her not sincerely attacking humans (a personality quirk that made her a bit abnormal compared to other oni).

Sophilia · « **Reply #88 on:** February 18, 2012, 03:58:00 PM »

Quote from: Starxsword on February 18, 2012, 10:32:31 AM

Oni are probably very difficult to explain if the theory that forgotten is synonymous to non-existence. The oni were supposedly completely forgotten, but they exist, which should not happen. Immaterial and Missing Power was pretty much about how Suika wanted to oni to hang out above ground. Of course, from there, we find out that all customs of fighting oni are lost and oni are also completely forgotten. Yuyuko knows about oni, but that is because she has around for a long time.

Patchouli at least, if not the whole SDM, also knew about oni. And of course there are the races of Youkai Mountain, who still fear them. But those are all still youkai, not humans, so...

I guess it depends on when they all went Underground. All we know is that it was before the Great Barrier went up.

Tiamat · « **Reply #89 on:** February 18, 2012, 06:30:55 PM »

It also should be noted that "forgotten" and "rejected"/"explained away"/"lost its purpose"/"no longer believed in" are VERY different things. Byakuren's profile specifically describes it as "rejection" and Reimu specifically says explained away, and Yukari specificially describes it as "losing their purpose".

Youkai that are sealed away are certainly rejected and have their purpose denied, but in an entirely different context than what the above were talking about, I think.

"Forgotten" may apply to gods (indirectly. It's lack of faith that causes a god's "death" of sorts), but not necescarily to youkai (if at all, judging by known evidence). Even though there are many parallels, gods operate on a different system than youkai do, to the point where a god can continue to live on the faith of youkai (which is what Kanako is doing at the youkai mountain), whereas youkai need humans. I don't think I"ve ever read anywhere about youkai dying because they're forgotten (if anything, Kogasa became a youkai BECAUSE she was forgotten. It's one of her titles, even!). It's when they're REJECTED and replaced by natural phenomena explanations that they're in trouble.