Mafia History Mafia - Game Over

[Schezo]

Just ask your hydra partner to be and the mod.  If they both agree, there you go.

[ActionDan]

Also make sure to read my lovely songs! (now that they are all wrong, it's even more ironic!)

[Shadoweh]

Zakeri was not only obvZak but the best CATS ever. I'm sorry for being so mean to you! ;-;
Also it's been my dream since I was a kid playing Megaman 3 to be Protoman. NEVER GONNA STOP RPIN~ Omoide wa Okkusenman!

[UncertainJakutten]

Oh, right! You forgot!

CEIJO GA TASONAI!

[Kiro]

Did anybody not think that Protoman was Shadoweh?

I only had 3 guesses. I guessed Dormio and UK correctly. I suspected Shadoweh as Protoman though because she's such a witty writer. But I ended up guessing Protoman as ActionDan. The reason being I thought only a really new player assumes a person replacing out for being under pressure could be Scum and that Dan was really new and saw that possibility with Sect in the last game and only Dan would play that recklessly. both of you: plzdontkillmeforthat!  :ohdear:

Shadoweh: Nah, we didn't have a chance. The amusing thing about how the Scum got caught was that the ObvScum was ignored and her buddies tried to lynch her. And then Town happened to catch the notObvScum and by that regard, we ended up clearing the ObvScum. That deserves a wry grin. Oh yeah, my lightning round was specifically designed to get Protoman off my ass with the flavor and matching your play. I'm glad it worked. I'm going to remember to play the player more next time.

capt.h: Well, since you saw my only post of Day 7, what I was getting at was that you didn't commit to any of your suspicions. Take a stance and put yourself in the line of fire. Even though you were wrong, you can try to argue your way out of it (like I managed to buy myself a day in Day 6). If you waffle or don't commit, you WILL look bad even if you're right because people will selectively think you were hoping to mislynch or hoping to bus.

Affinity: Good point on the Mai point. But it would have been hard to justify once the first Scum was lynched so late in the game. We could only spare one mislynch and no one would have gone for it when pretty much everyone looked dirty at the end. And yes, Mai played it beautifully at the end. Lay low, but not too low.

Oh yea, I was scared that defending for early Monoe would make me look bad and whoever the Scum was would find the right posts to trip me up and make me look worse. But when I tried and actually did it, I don't think it came out so bad. I mean, I guess it didn't turn out to make Monoe worse than before. So I won't be scared about that anymore.

Also, I felt in Day 6 it was free to talk about everyone else, but the Survivor still needs to die. Any comments if this really is the best strategy?

[ActionDan]

I commented on it in the QT.  I think it hurts town.  Killing the surviver leaves 2 town one scum Lylo, but town misses the oppurtunity to catch that scum the day before.  ~not too big a difference~ but I think town has more to gain by going for the scum kill.

[Kiro]

EBWOP: Tack on to the Affinity point: The game was also 3:16 or 3 + Survivor:16. Scum bussing early on in such a number disadvantaged game seemed less likely to me too. Just a bad set of circumstances and props to Scum for willing to bus her. Game would have been more winnable for Town if Mai died in Day 3.

[UncertainJakutten]

@Kiro: You're right. Claimed third parties ALWAYS need death. POSSIBLE exception is lylo, but you REALLY have to pay attention to things.

[capt. h]

Also, I felt in Day 6 it was free to talk about everyone else, but the Survivor still needs to die. Any comments if this really is the best strategy?

I wasn't a survivor.  :ohdear:

You're right. I'm still bad at committing, I might be getting worse if anything. I need to work on that.

Absolutely about lynching claimed survivors, especially those with vigs, but also for another reason - The survivor can easily be scum, especially if one of the scum roles is complex. And not lynching them gives scum a clear pass into the endgame. I'd never claim survivor before Lylo. Heck, the only player that should claim survivor before Lylo is scum.

Incidentally, I stand by what I said before - I didn't understand your outlook on roles from a town perspective. You were fixated on an unclaimed survivor role, and we had a known scum roleblocker wandering about. You didn't look for roleblocker tells at all on day 6, which was odd because you outspeculated the rest of the game.

EDIT: And sorry about ending Lylo so soon. It was my first one (without a town self-hammer - ironically everyone except the third party and the scum was on the wagon), and I thought I needed to commit to my choices. I know not to do that next time.

[ActionDan]

Yes, the biggest mistake we made was clearing Mai as derptown (by my logic), and for her pep (by conqueror's).  Next time we will hold her accountable for being ~wrong~ on things like Kyon, Moon Etc.  :V.

After Kyon flipped town we had pegged Chitose, Comedian, and Monoe as scum. T_T.  I must say that old!Cage was incredibly determental to town.  Almost everything Cage said helped scum, whether it was defending scum, attacking town, posting VCAs that were misleading, etc.  And certainly the worst day for town was D3, when everyone was gung-ho for a Kyon lynch.  I'll be honest.  Dormio (we saw your demasking post, just as you saw ours), that claim came out so awkwardly.  I also had a really hard time believeing that your role could be a town role (this is in the QT), so it's hard to blame town for that, but I couldn't believe that only Shadoweh was willing to seriously look at other players besides Kyon.  For that, she won MVP town and had our spiritual support from beyond!

[UncertainJakutten]

@Dan: Oh hell yes I was honorary scum. That's why APATHY KILLS TOWNS!

[capt. h]

@Dan: Oh hell yes I was honorary scum. That's why APATHY KILLS TOWNS!

"I" or "we"?

Although I guess it's pretty obvious that I'm the third party survivor. I just hide my flips really well.

[UncertainJakutten]

No, I'm going to have to say you did leaps and bounds better than I did. I honestly should be ashamed. But, the best I can say is "I need to try harder" next time. Get in the game fast and early and don't let it get me down. Also avoid large games :V.

The big thing is you were actually trying, which helped to erase the scum read that was strongly hanging over my slot. It was too little too late, but you have me to blame for that.

[ActionDan]

Capt.h you did a better job at appearing town than UK.  100% better

It was still only enough to keep you from being Scum though!  I was pretty convinced that there was indeed a surviver this game, but I shouldn't have tried to out guess the mod. :/

Ninja'd

[UncertainJakutten]

That said, I somehow survived 4 days looking like scum without getting lynched. I'm sure that takes SOME kind of talent, even if I don't know what. Hell, I was half TRYING to get lynched D3 to be done with it.

[Kiro]

Incidentally, I stand by what I said before - I didn't understand your outlook on roles from a town perspective. You were fixated on an unclaimed survivor role, and we had a known scum roleblocker wandering about. You didn't look for roleblocker tells at all on day 6, which was odd because you outspeculated the rest of the game.

See, this is why the lightning round is awesome. I lied.

I thought at the start of Day 6, John Cage was Scum. I didn't really know the balance issue so I thought it was possible you were both a Night Talker and Roleblocker. I did entertain the thought you could be a Survivor and acknowledged Protoman when she brought it up more. But I didn't commit to it because I didn't want to look like I was flip-flopping. Then I started looking really bad with people lining up to lynch me. Hence, lightning round. Because Protoman wasn't having any of this going for John Cage business, I appealed to Protoman by lying and saying I always thought Cage was a Survivor to match her belief and then built the Crocker case and attacked Crocker parallel to how Protoman attacked me. It worked. Too bad my case was wrong although as I was making the Crocker case, I did end up believing that I might have caught the real Scum and John Cage was indeed a Survivor after all.

[ActionDan]

See, this is why the lightning round is awesome. I lied.

I believe right around here, I called you sneaky in the QT (on the premise you were lying scum trying to lynch the surviver over yourself, before you went on about crocker.  I still believe that in this situation the a claimed surviver should not be lynched.)

[Shadoweh]

I started Day 3 thinking Kyon was town and everyone was tunneling Derpmio for no reason. :ohdear: I shouldn't have let huh what convince me lynching Kyon would solve all our problems, though it did help me get TOWNIE REVENGE. I agree with what huh what was saying most of the game though. If everyone agrees on a lynch SOMETHING IS WRONG. That should have been our clue in the end too >.< Crocker had no end game what was I thinking?!

I probably would have lynched capt.h if he actually claimed a third party. But there was still a chance he could actually have been town or a third party that won with town, and NO chance he was the last scum. His insistance on being a townie was puzzling. If he'd been a player on his own and not attached to OBVSCUM CAGE I would have called him town from the start.

But I ended up guessing Protoman as ActionDan. The reason being I thought only a really new player assumes a person replacing out for being under pressure could be Scum and that Dan was really new and saw that possibility with Sect in the last game and only Dan would play that recklessly. both of you: plzdontkillmeforthat!  :ohdear:

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA I WAS SO HORRRRRIBBBBLLLEEEE
That point probably came out wrong. I thought he might replace out as scum when he came under suspicion in order to get a player that had more time to defend themselves to come in. And I figured you were Appealing to Protoman, you just happened to sound really, really town when doing it. You were town enough that after Crocker flipped I started panicing about Mai being scum after all. I saw she was thinking about not killing me, so I thought I'd let her know I would have voted for her instantly in LYLO. I think all we needed to do was go look back at Day 1. What was she attacking Gumshoe for again? And her play Day 1 is WAY different from her Day 6. She literally dumbed herself down for us and no one noticed.

[Serp]

Ah, that was a fun game.  Not much else to say about the scum perspective, except that distancing ourselves from each other was a major part of our group strategy.  Apologies for the rather boring QT, but there wasn't much coordination to do.  Good cop play by Zakeri, and entertaining roleplaying from several players.

Also, I'm with Kiro about Survivor lynches, as a general principle.  Once scum need only one more mislynch to win, Survivor is scum.

[Dormio Ergo Sum]

@Conqueror:

Kyon's mention of MSR Mafia and use of FoS, bulletpoints, and != had me poring through the archives. He might be someone from the DL or an old player I just haven't seen play recently. Apparently they also live in or near Australia/Korea. Ehh...I'll just guess Baity for good measure, just to have something here.

Pfffffffffffffft.

[capt. h]

No, I'm going to have to say you did leaps and bounds better than I did. I honestly should be ashamed. But, the best I can say is "I need to try harder" next time. Get in the game fast and early and don't let it get me down. Also avoid large games :V.

The big thing is you were actually trying, which helped to erase the scum read that was strongly hanging over my slot. It was too little too late, but you have me to blame for that.

Thanks.

Dan - To be honest, I wasn't fighting the third-party look very hard. Protoman's case against Monoe began as "I think I'm more likely to be able to win by lynching you than by lynching Cage, because Cage looks like a third party I can win with. But he's definitely not town." I wasn't sure I wanted to argue that very hard, since I was obviously not town and only probably not scum. Didn't make sense to throw myself into a mislynch.

Cut

Kiro - That might have pretty bad long-term move (the part about thinking I was always a survivor) -

If Mai hadn't interrupted me, I was about to use that point to point out how you were more fixated on lynching third parties than actually looking for scum. I was planning to use that quote particularly in my case against you.

Your lightning round would have lasted you the day, but when I started picking through it I got gems like "I thought of CATS as more of a role than a player". There's a reason I thought you were a roleblocker.

You know, I've always wondered why scum always target the cute players early, and don't play cute themselves. People seem to assume cute=town. I mean, this is the first time I've ever seen Bardiche get killed Night 1.

[Kitten4u]

I believe right around here, I called you sneaky in the QT (on the premise you were lying scum trying to lynch the surviver over yourself, before you went on about crocker.  I still believe that in this situation the a claimed surviver should not be lynched.)

I will always support the lynch of a third party immediately unless it would directly result in a town loss immediately (IE, LYLO, need cross kills etc.)  The fact that MotK is hesitant to lynch third parties (see: GDIC (even if there was no actual third party), PoS and Zombies) makes me a sad kitten.  Third parties are more dangerous than mafia imo.

[UncertainJakutten]

Not necessarily more dangerous, but effectively count as mafia when you hit LYLO, which means LYLO is a day early. Some third parties aren't, but it's not worth the risk. With an SK though, you want to try to use them before discarding them.

[Shadoweh]

That said, I somehow survived 4 days looking like scum without getting lynched. I'm sure that takes SOME kind of talent, even if I don't know what. Hell, I was half TRYING to get lynched D3 to be done with it.

I EVEN TRIED RAPID FIRE TIMING BUT I WAS NO MATCH FOR THE WOT TORNADOS!
Protoman has to save his E-Tanks for the next mafia

[ActionDan]

general question because I'm lazy:

What is a "DL player"? Are these like, the creme de la creme mafia players or something?

I agree that 3rd parties should get lynched, but the circumstances were interesting this game.  If cage was lynched, (and let's pretend he was a survivor), then Lylo would have been Mai, Monoe, Crocker.  Out of those, Mai would never EVER have been caught.  But if people believed Cage was a true survivor during Lylo, then the other tow people would have been getting a good amount of scrutiny, and maybe Mai would have had some questions to answer.

[Kitten4u]

Not necessarily more dangerous, but effectively count as mafia when you hit LYLO, which means LYLO is a day early. Some third parties aren't, but it's not worth the risk. With an SK though, you want to try to use them before discarding them.

They're more dangerous because mafia are much more predictable.  A third party, especially a caught third party, is more likely to do whatever the hell they want methinks.  And I don't believe third parties are useful to town at all and I dislike that people treat them as such.  The only use they have is when town will OUTRIGHT LOSE IMMEDIATELY if they do not kill mafia.  If that doesn't happen I think they should just be killed immediately.  Third parties are not town's friends.  Not town = scum, never forget!

SKs are not vigs.  They must not be thought of as vigs.  Once you think of it as a vig you will not lynch it until it is too late.

I agree that 3rd parties should get lynched, but the circumstances were interesting this game.  If cage was lynched, (and let's pretend he was a survivor), then Lylo would have been Mai, Monoe, Crocker.  Out of those, Mai would never EVER have been caught.  But if people believed Cage was a true survivor during Lylo, then the other tow people would have been getting a good amount of scrutiny, and maybe Mai would have had some questions to answer.

I'm not even sure where you people were getting survivor from.  Third party I could buy, but why so specific?  What stopped him from being a second Moriyavatar?

[Kitten4u]

Just want to make this clear.  In hind-sight not lynching Cage worked fine because he was town.  I just dislike all this talk about third parties and then not lynching the suspected third party.  They are not your friends, they should not live.

[Kiro]

I'm not even sure where you people were getting survivor from.  Third party I could buy, but why so specific?  What stopped him from being a second Moriyavatar?

That's my bias. I only know Survivor and SK. In all the games I've played, I actually don't think I've seen a variety of 3rd parties. Like seriously... I missed a lot of MotK's recent funky games. And now I understand why Proto insisted 3rd Party when I insisted Survivor.

[Shadoweh]

Pretty much! And it was a Kilga game, so Unstopping Believer, which sounded to me like I WORSHIP SUWAKO, did not fill me with good feelings. It was a gamble more to make us look at not-Cage then anything, and we still fell into the trap of excluding the 'obvious town' because of what her buddies did.

THERE WAS NO HOOOOOOPE!!! I will forever be surpassed by this game ;_;

[Pesco]

Where's the post with the full setup? Or does Kilga want to put it in the archives himself? :V