Mafia History Mafia - Game Over

[Faiz]

Protoman thinks that is silly unless Mai is trying to say she has never caught Old Cage as a virus before. Protoman asked Mai to explain her town read on Cage earlier. Mai refused. Now Mai is claiming she didn't really have one in the first place. You were happy to use meta as a reason to clear Cage as town before. Protoman restates his demand.

I'm willing to say that in approximately 10 games I have played with her, I have only ever once seen her as scum. And I thought she was town all game, until I tried to mislynch her because I was an SK. So I've never legit caught her as sum
 
I was not saying I did not have a town read. You don't understand. I had these qualms about her play... But my confirmation bias was so large, that I was not willing to call her scum based upon something that small. I was reading town on her based on intent, and that was that.
 
It changed with New Cage. Once I saw what he was doing, I immediately turned around (because I know I have the bias on old cage) and trusted my instinct.
 
You'll get your case Proto, but understand that my town read was in spite of my qualms, and my qualms were ignored because of said town read.

[Faiz]

My rolename is the Possessive Protector.  Yes, from what I know for sure, it seems to me that I have no restrictions in being a normal town doctor that can protect every night; however, the flavor seems a little suspect in that I might actually be a jaikeeper by bastard mod.  That's speculation though.

Vote: Chitose
 
Have the scum learned nothing about the "I don't know what my role does...?" claim tell?
 
This is the scum roleblocker, claiming doctor.

[Decade]

Anyone that hammers Chitose (besides Chitose, Protoman can't really threaten self-hammers) gets thrown into the endless depths of 4chan. Keep in mind the one confirmed role didn't know his powers either and we could accidentally kill a real power role. Protoman is also skeptical but is willing to wait for input.

Like CATS. Any minute now..

[DiEnd]

Scumtell?  I will clarify that I know what my role does; to be able to protect any target any night, but given things like Moriya Shrine Mafia II, I won't be surprised if there is something that isn't explicitly said out to me to this role.  "Possessive Protector" sounds more like a jailkeeper than a doctor too.

The Cage thing is another example of Mai's ever-changing opinions in the first half of the day, I think.  It happened with Kyon and it certainly could happen with Cage, and it still gives pretty little credibility to her opinions when she can vary them at will to secure lynches.  I'm not so sure why she's getting a clear in spite of that,

[Faiz]

Because yes, having changing opinions is bad?
 
It's actually more scummy to never change. Which is what you are doing constantly.

[Sasword]

Well, about that Doc claim, my first reaction was: unlikely to be true. For that, let's run it through list of confirmed power roles.

Town has Proximity Minecrafter (vig or bomb possibly?), Curly Brace (progressive power increase), and a likely Even Night Cop. Scum has Feisty Geist (what's that? but probably not a Goon), and a likely roleblocker. That's 3 against 2. Call me skeptical that Town would have an All Night Doctor in a setup like this where there is probably only 3 Scum.  4:2, really now? I would probably lean against believing this claim even if the 3rd Scum also had a power of their own besides the NK. That ratio would make it 4:3 and while the Cop/Doc combo is barely countered by the roleblocker, what else will Scum have that can counter the Minecrafter and Curly Brace while being under the 25% player population? Nothing conclusive about this and this treads into a dangerous area, but I will put it forth for consideration. There is also the wild card in John Cage's ability to talk at Night. Could fit Town, Scum, or even a Survivor (who we still ought to lynch if claimed). I'm going to treat that power as completely neutral though as it doesn't affect other people directly.

Chitose: Most of the people here have stated the reason why they're clearing Mai despite her actions. Let's try to look at things in reverse to see where you're coming from. Explain to us how her actions are telling of her being Scum and that during all this Comedian even risked starting a possible wagon on Scum Mai in Day 4 or Day 5. Is there anything we're missing about this connection that you are seeing? And you might as well throw out a rehash of points to follow up on if you flip Town. Whether it's because there's been so much pressure being put onto you, I just don't see that much of a Townie-trying-to-survive effort by you in getting your Crocker case going over your own.

Crocker: That does answer my question. At least it's down in writing. I can follow along with your explanation so it does make you look better even if the lack of vote still bugs me. But I can't really understand that early game paranoia about votes since I wasn't around for that. I'll get a full reread of you done by Day 6 (or sooner if for some reason, we get convinced not to lynch Chitose today). I saw you had an exchange with Mai on page 28 and I will follow up on those points later (i.e., ugh, more early day reading).

[Decade]

Kilga updated the blurb, apparently Feisty Geist was a post restrictor. Protoman wouldn't consider that a very strong power role. No Navis reported any problems with speech.

[DiEnd]

The Minecrafter could have been detrimental and non-detrimental to town, and the the 25% thing is a little icky because you do not know what Curly Brace and the Minecrafter does.  The power comparison you are suggesting does not quite hold up due to the number of assumptions you are making.

The things I'm pushing Mai for are still the old-fashioned basics; having the ability to change opinions at will and whenever suited has allowed her to spontaneously latch onto the main town wagons of the previous days, such as Kyon's.  This is scummy because the thought process is too abrupt to follow.  How else to explain the sudden turn on Kyon from town to scum (due to just one flip), and on Cage (due to one Protoman vote, before the Comedian flip, and without reference to 'Old Cage').  While her actions may seem solid when viewed in the perspective of one day, on a grand scale, one can see that very little of her opinions (before D5) have carried over from day to day as well, which fits the scum ethos of piling onto bandwagons whenever possible.  As for interactions with Comedian, it is easier than one thinks for people to 'risk a wagon' just by putting one as a second choice to lynch; thus I find it somewhat null-telly, since there haven't been much between them since D3 and before.  After all, Mai voted Cage between Cage and Comedian on D4.

Also, from what I see, Crocker's explanation (unlike Mai merely saying things like 'changing opinions constantly is scum") is somewhat sound for his actions; though it's not very convincing.  I still express disbelief that Crocker found Annonymous scummier than me and Comedian however, since he did not state this at all on D4 (if you did, Crocker, point it out).  It's weird to refer to Comedian's post for his case when he could have produced it himself, but yeah.  The main point is that his vote stayed on Annonymous until the very last moment, avoiding the window where he could have showed some semblance of opinion, and there is only so much that explanation after the fact can do.  I have nothing much more to say after that first post of mine, other than I don't believe Crocker reagrding his Annonymous vote, and that he should be lynched for that and his insubstantial D1-D3.

[DiEnd]

EBWOP:

"changing opinions constantly is town"

[Punch Hopper]

Oh no! Post is delete! :ohdear:

Mai is have good point. Case of Chitose on Mai is fault. Logical debate must be embracing openmindedness. City must realize is possible to be wrong, and must pursue what is right. Algae must perpetrate wrong. For Algae, there is no say "I am wrong, I must fix." There is only "I was wrong, please forgive."

Many people believe case of Chitose on Mai is wrong, and many times are explain. Chitose is insist on case, and is ignore many points bring up to speaking for City Mai. Chitose is still not answer question what feelings are Comedian is willing to lynching Mai when perfect Algae win is still easy. Chitose is continue push faulty Mai case. Chitose is no say "I am wrong, I must fix." But much feeling if Mai was lynching today, Chitose would say "I was wrong, please forgive."

We do not forgive. We do not forgot.

Also, I am disbelieve role of Chitose fitting with nightkills. Algae are have no reason to believing doctor existing unless rolecop are present. But then why is no kill Doctor? Lynchness is not factor, as potential for ending of night without death is bad. Also, as algae having rolecop and roleblock? And if Chitose is jailkeeper, why does algae choose to killing Anonymous instead of myself (result is no kill) or Chitose (Result is kill person of stopping killing)? I am not expect serious answers, but I am believe Anonymous Kill and Self block must only be mean Algae is have roleblock ability.

To answering Protoman Question: I am process of elimination pick Monoe. But this is not say I feel Monoe has good chance of being algae. I am apologies for lazy, as I am still need to be reread of Monoe. I am receive no bad feeling from Monoe posts, or From Crocker posts (Who I am reread before). So I am confident in Chitose and Cage.

Cut is by Chitose: is all well and good, but I feel method of attack is poor. I am not believing basing case on people is leading of wagon, because many were of taking charge in bandwagon townies. Day One, everyone is voting all confirmed townies (Excepting Protoman). Day 2, only unconfirmed wagons are Mai, and Chitose, and each is only have one vote. Day 3, only unconfirm wagon is Mai. Accusing of Mai of being on main town wagon is bad because onto other unconfirmed wagons for Mai to be being on and have realistic chance of lynching is herself. I am not see how approach to wagon is not make her any more algae than, say, Anonymous, or Monoe, or John Cage, Or Light, or Crocker. I am value of alternative means of find algae for today than watch of bandwagon on city. One alternative is such is watching of bandwagon of algae instead. Namely, Chitose, John Cage, and Monoe. Except, I am forgive Monoe, because Monoe were not here at time of lynch.

[DiEnd]

@CATS:

Very entertaining post (liked the forgive forgot thing), but I don't really get the thing you're saying on me being doctor; why are you bringing scum perceptions into the situation when roles are assigned by the mod?  Whether or not scum believes that there's a doc in the setup or not is irrelevant to what the mod has in mind.

Also, I don't think people find my points absolutely wrong, just that they are assigning a lesser sense of importance than they should.  Don't get me wrong, i"m not choosing Mai by the way she has been on most of the town wagons; I agree with you that going by that alone is faulty.  I am attacking her justifications for switching the wagons from day to day, because she did things like explicitly say on D2 that 'Kyon is confirmed town and is just an easy target that scum wants to pile on", only to chase him on D3, while everyone else had reasonable suspicions on Kyon then that merely carried over to D3.  It is examples like these that I am using in my case, not just what you say.  As for Comedian, there's no harm in choosing scum as a 'second option for a lynch today' with no votes, and there's no harm in Mafia being flexible.  Interactions between flipped scum and the suspected are nice and all, but all must be taken with a pinch of salt.

Can you elaborate on why you think Crocker is good, with his pause in voting yesterday and all?

[Kilgamayan]

Chitose Karasuma (3): CATS, Monoe, Mai Tokiha, Mai Tokiha
Mr. Crocker (0): Chitose Karasuma
John Cage (1): Mai Tokiha, Protoman.EXE

No vote cast: John Cage, Mr. Crocker, Protoman.EXE

With 7 alive, it takes 4 to lynch. You have a little under 13.5 hours to vote.

Chitose Karasuma is at L-1!

[Kick Hopper]

Chitose, could you explain to us why you think you're role might be a jailkeeper, rather than a doctor?

Monoe - You forgot my role - Unstopping Believer, with the ability to post at night.

To answer your question about whether I find you or Mai more likely to be scum, I decided that I think Mai is the morelikely scum. If she never participated in actions she herself considered scummy, then I would probably completely write her play off as town. However, she attacked me with a chainsaw defense while claiming I was using a chainsaw defense. (Note: I didn't consider using the chainsaw defense itself as scummy, since the player that created Mai's use of the term later updated the wiki to say it was null. But using it while accusing another player of using it is scummy, since it means the accuser is scum by their own logic.) She's also done a lot of talking without actually saying anything, only providing the reasons for her thoughts well after being explicitly asked for them with a list of standard tells the player she accuses is guilty of. And much of the narrow focus she accuses Chitose of applies to herself. Frankly, she is scum by her own standards of what constitues scummy behavior, and the last time I overlooked a player who was scum by their own standards but not mine, I lynched a townie and let scum go free.

[Faiz]

Who was I chainsaw defending Cage?
 
Think real hard about this one.

[Kick Hopper]

Who was I chainsaw defending Cage?
 
Think real hard about this one.

Protoman.

[Faiz]

Protoman.

So you're calling Protoman scum?
 

 

[Faiz]

On the off chance people don't know what Chainsaw defense is, it's when 1 scum tries to derail the wagon on another scum by attacking their attacker.
 
See: Protoman attacks Comedian, Cage attacks Protoman.

[Faiz]

So, in order for me to be Chainsaw defending Proto, the following would have to be true:
 
1) There would have to be a wagon on Proto .
2) Proto would have to be scum.
3) I would have to attack the person leading the charge against Proto.
 
I'l grant you #3. #2 is a BIG LOLNO. and #1 never happened, unless you count your one vote as a "wagon".
 
So your Chainsaw claim falls short. Would you like to insert another coin and try again Cage-scum?

[Decade]

At least Protoman and Mai can agree on 2). Protoman worries about his program's lifespan again. :ohdear:
Protoman disagrees that viruses would not leap to defend someone that is obviously town, but Protoman doesn't feel ill intent behind Mai's defense. Protoman constantly rechecks Mai hoping to find virus intent so Protoman can delete her. Protoman thinks Chitose's case starts much like that. Chitose finds Mai's hunting procedures annoying. Annoying Navis are easy to justify hunting. Protoman is still bothered by everyone's agreement, but can't deny that everyone might agree just because Chitose really is a virus.

Now Protoman is only bothered that Crock Pot hasn't given his input on Chitose's claim. Looking back over Crock Pot, Protoman realizes just reading his posts alone aren't as helpful as reading when they happened. Protoman sees alot of shifting with popular opinion. Protoman isn't sure if this is on the same level as having no opinion on his own, but Protoman finds Crock Pot just as questionable as Cage right now.

[Sasword]

Chitose: Slight counter to your Minecrafter observation in that it could have been detrimental to Scum (able to kill one?) and that alone would make it a powerful Town asset. There are assumptions to be made, but for the sake of balance and in-game mechanics that we have seen (not a whole lot), the Scum team doesn't "look" very powerful. I'm not going to get caught up in that argument anymore while still heavily doubting your roleclaim. If you actually flip a Town Doctor, we're probably in big trouble because that means the remaining Scum are probably very powerful roles or in another wild theory, CATS is possibly gambitting Scum. But we'll see.

What you said about Mai is what I've also considered. So... nothing new. The Comedian thing could at best be seen as null, but the overall feeling I get is that it's still not enough to put her into the top 3. Same with your Crocker analysis, nothing new. Overall, it doesn't do enough to sway my opinion that you should be the lynch today. I don't think I have anything else to add for today.

Cut by Proto: Agreed Crocker should get his say in before deadline.

[Sasword]

Chitose Karasuma (3): CATS, Monoe, Mai Tokiha, Mai Tokiha
Mr. Crocker (0): Chitose Karasuma
John Cage (1): Mai Tokiha, Protoman.EXE

No vote cast: John Cage, Mr. Crocker, Protoman.EXE

With 7 alive, it takes 4 to lynch. You have a little under 13.5 hours to vote.

Chitose Karasuma is at L-1!

Mod: Chitose is no longer voting Crocker? Is that correct?

[Kick Hopper]

Mai - Do you read the links I give you?

The key to identifying this tell is intent - it is possible to confuse Chainsaw Defense with a player who simply finds the attacker scummy and has no intent of defense. In general, you can be reasonably sure that this tell is involved if a) the player supposedly using Chainsaw Defense has not previously been especially critical of the player he is now attacking, and b) the player supposedly using Chainsaw Defense seems to find the player he is supposedly defending at least reasonably pro-town. 

Protoman doesn't have to be scum for the chainsaw defense argument to hold. In fact, the reason why defense in general is considered scummy is because scum have an interest in defending themselves, and if they defend town they can later claim that they aren't scum because they were opposing the lynch of townies.

[Faiz]

@Mod: How much time is left in the day?

[Decade]

Protoman thinks your debate is wandering into semantics. Mai is saying defending town is different from defending someone that is now proven corrupted virus. Protoman personally has no qualms with defending someone he thinks is town. Protoman thinks both Cage and Mai need more to their cases then that.

Also Protoman has to leave very shortly. Is Cage going to be here for the deadline?

[Faiz]

Excuse me if I take issue with Talihundur.
 
Also, nice appeal to authority there.

[Faiz]

If that wasn't clear enough, it's scummy that you keep throwing that link at me because it's trying to placate me with a respectable third party source that agrees with you.
 
AoA.

[Kick Hopper]

Protoman - Yes, I'll be here for the deadline.

[Decade]

Alright, Protoman leaves voting in yours and Crock Pot's hands! Looking at Protoman's suspicion list this fills Protoman with all kinds of bad feelings. If Crock Pot doesn't report in Protoman suggests fire.

[Faiz]

Proto, can you make an attempt to get back before deadline?
 
I'd feel better that way, for obvious reasons.

[Decade]

Protoman really can't. He should be gone already. To answer you before Kilga, we should have about 3 and a half hours. Good luck!