Author Topic: Mafia History Mafia - Game Over (Read 73962 times)

Faiz · « **Reply #510 on:** May 14, 2011, 02:57:03 AM »

And yes, Cage vs. Proto IS a town on town argument, and a large waste of time.

Kick Hopper · « **Reply #511 on:** May 14, 2011, 02:59:51 AM »

I've told you all already that Protoman is town. I'm just kind of tired of his tactics, as I'm sure he's tired of mine. So, at this point I'm willing to TRY to put whatever this hubub is to death.

Though, I do want to ask you Mai, if you're intentionally not going to answer my question (and I think Protoman's) about my "obvtownness". I can accept if you won't, because I can think of pro town reasons for not getting into it (I can also see pro town reasons for answering as well, of course)

And to clarify, the scared comment is not an accusation of scumminess, it's a rather rough appeal to reconsider. Confirmation bias is about the only reason I can think of for Protoman not answering my request. But I'll play his game a little, at least.

Decade · « **Reply #512 on:** May 14, 2011, 03:02:40 AM »

Protoman will mention that he isn't against a Kyon lynch now that he has had time to state his cases. From Protoman's perspective the order of the deletions won't matter as long as Anonymous > Chitose > John Cage > Kyon > CATS happens. Protoman does believe Kyon was being given the ability to hammer himself.

Can you post something that isn't one-liners so you don't get lynched tomorrow? That would be great. You make Protoman angrier then all the viruses combined right now. This is town/scum. You are wrong.

Protoman has no fear, unlike John Cage. If you could be bothered to scroll up, you can find the links to your case that I gave to Comedian barely a few posts ago. Protoman is glad Cage is getting his confidence back. Cage is still scum.

Faiz · « **Reply #513 on:** May 14, 2011, 03:07:23 AM »

By the by, I'm not going to be explaining my town reads.

If you want a case on scum, go ahead and ask. I'm happy to provide those reasonings.

But there are reasons not to explain why I have a town read on someone.

P-Edit: Yes Cage, I am deliberately ignoring the questions about my town reads.

P-P-Edit: Proto, explaining town reads only gives scum more to work with and exploit. I do not wish to explain it further than this.

If truly pressed, I will give my reasons, but I'd have to be REALLY pressured before I do something so anti-town.

Decade · « **Reply #514 on:** May 14, 2011, 03:13:18 AM »

You don't explain your scum reads either, so it's not like it makes a difference. You were willing to explain your town read on Kyon just fine. You were already willing to make a list of who the town are in your mind. Scum doesn't need more to work with. Protoman doesn't care what your reasons are. Protoman wants to hear it anyways, not just because of Cage, but because your inability to explain yourself is why you're a wagon right now.

Also you've been spending so much time avoiding telling me what I want from you that you still haven't gotten around to your scum cases. Protoman has decided you are unreasonable and if you don't get mislynched tomorrow town will eventually lose anyways. So Protoman is going to pretend you no longer exist.

Protoman's operator has a migrane. Protoman is logging off now.

Faiz · « **Reply #515 on:** May 14, 2011, 03:17:59 AM »

I gave a MASSIVE Kyon Case.

Clearly you don't read as carefully as you assume you do.

Faiz · « **Reply #516 on:** May 14, 2011, 03:18:28 AM »

And I'm working on the Crocker case right now.

104 pages, fuck yeah.

Kick Hopper · « **Reply #517 on:** May 14, 2011, 03:20:33 AM »

Protoman is lazy, but whatever, that's the best I'll get and Mai is more or less right about things. I got off track.

Anyway, first thing. Post 137. What? No, seriously, what? I don't understand your point at all. First, I'm saying that post restricted players should NOT claim. Are you telling me that telling someone to NOT claim is a "subtle rolefish"? I'm...just...please, clarify this.

Post 159: Already admitted that was a bad hop. But, I figure it's kind of obvious I was voting Prinny for his persistent uselessness and I was voicing general agreement for Sailor Moon's case.

As for my jump on Light, I can't defend that but I'll note that that was my first catch up post for the day. I wasn't around for the wagon picking up, and I believed Light was more likely to be scum out of Kyon's and Light's exchange at that time. I'm not sure why you expect me to time travel and start wagons, but there it is for you. I can't really change when I have time to post.

Now for Sailor Moon. Sailor Moon's initial post D2 was awful. I probably shouldn't have said "Mai was convincing me" so much as just gone with, as I'm pretty sure I said back then, Sailor Moon's D2 post being awful because it was hypocritical. I wanted Mai to restate her case to see what D1 stuff would support my changing read from her point of view.

Now, to the uselessness point. Explain how that's scummy when I clearly suspected both of them of being scum?

Now as for Gumshoe's post. PRETTY sure I just liked it because it echoed my earlier thought process, which, IIRC, had not been changed regarding Sailor Moon's D1. Honestly, I STILL wasn't sure of Sailor scum until later in the day, I just could see where it was possible. "beginning to see" is not the same as "needs to die now"

As for Mai, I stand by her being obvious town D1 and still being obvious town. And supposing that she should be a "mislynch target"...HOW DOES THIS MAKE ME SCUM? What POSSIBLE fucking scum intent could you POSSIBLY be bullshitting from that post?

I don't see anything else to answer for in this "case". Anyway, elaborate on the case CATS "stole", please. I might have missed this. May I ask how it should have been so obvious to me? I do not have a perfect memory. In fact, my mafia memory is VERY susceptable to getting skewed and having holes in it.

Honestly, I think you built this big rickety house of cards with the presumption that John Cage was scum, and were desperately trying to support it. I don't know WHY you would DO this though. There's very little that can be granted as objectively (or even subjectively) scummy in it. Happy?

Cuts: Fair enough at Mai. And yes, Protoman is apparently not of perfect memory either.

OH! I love Protoman's parting order of lynches. Wasn't I scummy for deflecting things off CATS? But if CATS is potentially not scum, doesn't part of your house of cards start collapsing? How very INTERESTING indeed!

Kick Hopper · « **Reply #518 on:** May 14, 2011, 03:21:22 AM »

EBWOP: Now do you all see why I didn't really feel like giving this "case" the time of day? It was completely uninteresting and honestly incredibly inaccurate. I only had to SKIM it for that analysis.

Faiz · « **Reply #519 on:** May 14, 2011, 03:24:00 AM »

Quote from: Protoman.EXE on May 14, 2011, 03:13:18 AM

Protoman has decided you are unreasonable and if you don't get mislynched tomorrow town will eventually lose anyways. So Protoman is going to pretend you no longer exist.

Bolded emphasis is mine.

That's an interesting comment by you.

We have two options here:

1) You're advocating a policy lynch
2) You're setting up a KNOWN mislynch for tomorrow.

One is anti-town. One is scum.

Which is it, Proto?

Decade · « **Reply #520 on:** May 14, 2011, 03:25:48 AM »

Third option: You're going to get mislynched because you're playing like an idiot.

Kick Hopper · « **Reply #521 on:** May 14, 2011, 03:29:06 AM »

Oops. I guess Protoman doesn't feel like dealing with things he didn't want to hear. There's a conspicuous lack of response to my utter destruction of his "case". And after all that pressure for me to answer you. Yeah. I was right.

Faiz · « **Reply #522 on:** May 14, 2011, 03:30:20 AM »

Quote from: Protoman.EXE on May 14, 2011, 03:25:48 AM

Third option: You're going to get mislynched because you're playing like an idiot.

How about you cut down the Ad Hom, and you go read my Kyon case?

I read your Cage case. I understand your opinion. I disagree.

Care to shed light on your opinion on my case?

Kilgamayan · « **Reply #523 on:** May 14, 2011, 03:35:44 AM »

All right, before this goes much further, I'm going to put out a general call to tone down the hostility, because it's gotten to the point where even I'm having a hard time following the thread. I'm not going to name names because there are a number of people who have made agitating posts throughout the day. Things stop here. I don't want to see any finger-pointing or lashing out from perceived persecution or attempts to get the last word in or anything like that. Swallow your collective pride and play nicely, please.

There's been no change in the vote count. You have a little under 23 hours to vote.

Faiz · « **Reply #524 on:** May 14, 2011, 04:02:43 AM »

I actually have a question for Crocker:

Top 3 scum suspects. Top Town Read. Who are they?

Faiz · « **Reply #525 on:** May 14, 2011, 04:08:04 AM »

Also, Proto, I have a question for YOU.

What is your opinion on contradictions as a scum tell?

What is your opinion on Gambits?

Kick Hopper · « **Reply #526 on:** May 14, 2011, 04:10:02 AM »

Ooh! Ooh! Can I get a question too? I LOVE questions! They make me feel warm inside!

Faiz · « **Reply #527 on:** May 14, 2011, 04:11:36 AM »

I guess the Gambit question is universal.

What is your opinion on gambiting? What is the difference between a town gambit and a scum gambit?

Ryuki · « **Reply #528 on:** May 14, 2011, 04:16:17 AM »

I'm writing the post right now, but to quickly answer your question,
Scum: Light, Anonymous, CATS

Town: Besides my self-confirmed towniness, I would have to go with Monoe as she has been active in hunting, good amount of conviction, follows up on suspicions, and makes original content.

Kick Hopper · « **Reply #529 on:** May 14, 2011, 04:21:32 AM »

Crocker, if you had to pick a fourth scum, who?

As for gambiting, I like it, but it's also a delicate thing to do. I think in the end, you discern a town gambit from a scum gambit by asking what it hoped to achieve, and pressing it. But...even then, I can't be certain I'd be able to figure out the intent. Another decent metric is determining who's goal is advanced more during the gambit. Scum or town's?

Ryuki · « **Reply #530 on:** May 14, 2011, 05:02:20 AM »

Still writing, but I don't currently have a fourth pick, as that leads to too much scumteam-based thinking for me based on not-confirmed alignments, and I would rather go by individual cases until a scum flips.
But that isn't to say my list isn't subject to change and cannot add another name.

And I wouldn't pick a fourth name because I would feel much less confident about any case I would make on them.

So yeah, I just wanna stick with three for now.

Ryuki · « **Reply #531 on:** May 14, 2011, 05:11:43 AM »

Quote from: Cage

Crocker, your first content post is a vote for Prinny over Moon. If Moon weren't at L-2, would you have voted her instead?

Uh, I have no idea what you're getting at here, but no. I found him scummier than Moon, which earned him my vote. Why do you ask?

My opinions on recent happenings are that I don't really buy Kyon's claim, as it establishes a vague town power role, but he does not have to prove it at all anymore due to claiming it.

My preferred lynches right now, in order,
Light, Anonymous, and CATS
I've said why on each and why I find them to be the scummiest in the game, and the flips don't make me feel any better about any of them.

Regarding Mai, I don't see her as scum. While the tunneling was not very good in the end, I don't find the scum intent in her actions that started all the way in ED1. Her action to move targets after Moon's flip is natural and I'm pleased with how confidently she did it instead of dwelling and defending on her past actions.

On Cage, I've done a reread, but I don't feel as if she's scum. I lean on the townier side for her.

Concerning the present wagons, I would support the Kyon over the Mai, as he looks scummier than Mai in my opinion. If it came down to deadline with tied wagons, I would most likely go with Kyon in order to secure the lynch. But I would rather have the lynch of someone on my list.

Gonna get this out here.

OOO · « **Reply #532 on:** May 14, 2011, 06:10:33 AM »

I realize that Cage himself has answered some of these questions, but while I feel that I addressed everything worth addressing in Protoman's second post, I probably did skim over the first too quickly. For the record, my own opinions:

Cage's #415 read of Kyon and Mai as a possible pair and her #458 dismissal of a Kyon/Mai pair doesn't strike me as a contradiction because the former was explicitly just his read of D3 interactions while the latter was explicitly just an impression of D1 interactions.

No contradiction in reading Gumshoe's case as town-intended even if he didn't agree with it, either. It's very common to see a case as reasonable and town-intended even if you disagree with it.

I want to agree with you that it's bad to make a bunch of post-by-post analysis/nitpicking of others' cases and then tl;dr'ing who your primary case is as though it follows from what went before it, but the fact is that a lot of players use it as their primary scumhunting technique, and it can be read for intent, though it's not easy.

Finally, admitting that one has made mistakes is a nulltell at worst. Townies make mistakes, and for a townie who has genuinely made a mistake, the towniest thing to do is to admit to that mistake - making up a justification when you had no such justification in mind as you made the mistake is deceptive and scummy. The mistake should still be considered as much a scum indication as all anti-town play, but the admission of the mistake shouldn't.

So, Cage case just isn't that convincing to me. The most valid point against him is the Prinny wagon hop thing.

Kilgamayan · « **Reply #533 on:** May 14, 2011, 06:17:28 AM »

Anonymous has been prodded for inactivity.

DiEnd · « **Reply #534 on:** May 14, 2011, 12:40:30 PM »

@Cage:

What she said on Crocker and Gumshoe were things that did not lead to anywhere (e.g point out Gumshoe's 'misrep' but did not follow up). And I used rhetoric because she had been repeating her points on SM like AtE over and over again, most of the time as sole content of whole posts. I don't think I have been misrepping.

---

Comedian has been putting his vote on Kyon for three days now, while adding generally helpful stuff but extremely sporadically... Fair answers to fair questions throughout the game, but very little that seems to carry over to the next day other than opinions on the main bandwagon. Nothing I can point out specifically other than these general points,but all this makes me feel quite wary about him.

Kyon's case on me reuses pretty much what Monoe said on D2 and strips it down rather randomly. Quite a nutshell of his play the entire game. Pretty much agree with his roleclaim being a nulltell with regards to alignment. I would say that I'm willing to lynch him, but as I said many times before, he's still second best on my list. I think Mai's case on Kyon is pretty weird, more due to her past opinions rather than what she's actually saying (I agree with points two and three, not so much one), but it's a little too late since most of the points have been raised a long time ago. As an information thing I prefer Mai too, since quite a lot of weird things have been happening around her, what with Protoman's try to push people like CATS out of her wagon and Cage's, Monoe's and Crocker's rather general clearing of her (though at the same time I can't deny that I'm not connected to Kyon either). So yeah.

Kick Hopper · « **Reply #535 on:** May 14, 2011, 02:19:34 PM »

Mm. Well, that's fair enough Crocker. Forcing yourself would probably come off as fake and bad.

The impression I got from that post is that you wanted Moon dead more than Light, but didn't vote Moon since ~*~L-2~*~. Thanks for the clarification.

Also, if you...don't buy Kyon's claim, why is he not your lynching list? Do you have some pro town motivation for him to lie?

@Chitose: Fair enough on Gumshoe, though I feel she was following up occasionally, he just wasn't her top suspect. He also wasn't around to reply much to her. Now, as for the repetition on points on Sailor Moon...um, well, I don't think that's scummy, but I'd rather let her explain why rather than assume she'd do it for the same reasons I would.

Anyway, the other issue I have is does weird = scummy?

Decade · « **Reply #536 on:** May 14, 2011, 02:25:56 PM »

Quote from: John Cage on May 14, 2011, 03:29:06 AM

Oops. I guess Protoman doesn't feel like dealing with things he didn't want to hear. There's a conspicuous lack of response to my utter destruction of his "case". And after all that pressure for me to answer you. Yeah. I was right.

When I said I was logging off, I actually logged off. A quick response to Mai didn't mean I was going to answer your perspective on my case. Also I realized I was being angry for the sake of being angry. I place here an apology for everyone for letting this get to me personally. My opinions have been wrong just as much as anyone else's and I shouldn't expect anyone to immediately agree with everything I say. I can't really blame anyone for not considering Cage seriously right now since Cage is very good at sounding town. (Also if Cage gets nightkilled the first post of the day will be me screaming)

Cage, Your statement is silly. I very much wanted to hear what you personally had to say about it. How else can anyone see an opinion of yours besides 'uninteresting'?

I think Protoman will address the other Navis I want to bring up first while I wake up and properly look over your answer. Protoman has decided we were wrong about wanting to ignore Mai today after all. Is this you accusing me of being a virus now? Protoman has been assuming you just don't understand the situation you're in. But there is so little time left today that Protoman is getting concerned. My opinion on your Kyon case is that it's convincing but uninteresting. Kyon has been attacked and been made cases on ad infinitum. Protoman is actually waiting for the four other cases on Navis that haven't been attacked heavily that you said you would make. At this rate you won't finish any of them before the day ends. Settings isn't an excuse for taking so long, go change them, the mafia isn't 104 pages. You've been asked to present these cases and justify them by me all day and I'm starting to get the feeling you have no intention of doing it. Your soft attacks on me and defense of Cage without presenting the harder cases you said you would is starting to make Protoman worried about you, and when Protoman was willing to die for you earlier he finds this feeling disconcerting. Please fix this for Protoman. Today. Crocker, Comedian, Anonymous, Monoe, please?

Since you asked, contradictions are fun to point out but the reactions to those contradictions are more interesting then the wording itself. Gambits are the only thing that keeps mafia interesting. The thrill of a successful gambit or foiling one keep Protoman alive!

To Comedian, I think you're just giving Cage too much benefit of the doubt for now. I think the combination of Cage reading Kyon and Mai as a possible pair in the same post as his putting Kyon to L-1 is more important then the changing of reads, but you're correct about how the evidence is only circumstantial without Kyon himself being revealed. Frankly, considering he can't bring himself to exist today I still want an Anonymous lynch anyways, because possible information doesn't outweigh aiming for the most likely scum in my mind.

Protoman thinks he is resigned to living to Day 4 for being easily provoked and apparently impossible to understand. At least Headless 4chan left him some inspiring music to write to and Cage wants to delete all of Protoman's suspects as well. Including himself!

Kick Hopper · « **Reply #537 on:** May 14, 2011, 02:32:53 PM »

Well then, I look forward to how you'll scramble to fix your tumbling house of cards.

That said, I need to apologize as well. I was to some degree provoking you, partially to get you to do what I asked, and partially because I just wasn't in a good mood, and it really wasn't good of me to throw that at you. EVEN IF WE ARE AT ODDS, WILL YOU ALLOW OUR FRIENDSHIP OF ACTUALLY BEING SOMEWHAT ACTIVE PLAYERS OVERCOME THE HOSTILITY?

Decade · « **Reply #538 on:** May 14, 2011, 02:47:07 PM »

Friendship!

At least if Protoman loses to you he will lose to someone that was actually here.

Decade · « **Reply #539 on:** May 14, 2011, 03:47:32 PM »

Protoman knows you love quote walls. Sorry, but since Protoman still has lots of questions this is how it has to be.

Quote from: John Cage on May 14, 2011, 03:20:33 AM

Protoman is lazy, but whatever, that's the best I'll get and Mai is more or less right about things. I got off track.

Protoman dislikes your assertations that asking you to read yourself and pick what you defend against personally is 'lazy'. What you choose to look at is just as important as what you don't. Telling you exactly what points are important would be detrimental to what Protoman wants from you.

Quote

Anyway, first thing. Post 137. What? No, seriously, what? I don't understand your point at all. First, I'm saying that post restricted players should NOT claim. Are you telling me that telling someone to NOT claim is a "subtle rolefish"? I'm...just...please, clarify this.

Bringing up the WIFOM in the first place is a subtle rolefish. Mentioning the topic brings it to people's minds and makes them more likely to talk about their post restrictions, in the same way that putting someone to L-1 and telling them in big bold letters not to hammer has never stopped anyone from hammering before.

Quote

Post 159: Already admitted that was a bad hop. But, I figure it's kind of obvious I was voting Prinny for his persistent uselessness and I was voicing general agreement for Sailor Moon's case.

It wasn't obvious. You never named a player before now. Can you clarify what parts of Sailor Moon's case you agreed with in particular?

Quote

Now for Sailor Moon. Sailor Moon's initial post D2 was awful. I probably shouldn't have said "Mai was convincing me" so much as just gone with, as I'm pretty sure I said back then, Sailor Moon's D2 post being awful because it was hypocritical. I wanted Mai to restate her case to see what D1 stuff would support my changing read from her point of view.

I'm pretty sure you didn't. Not when you actually voted for her. You mentioned it earlier here When you wanted both Light and Kyon, in that order, dead more. You never gave a reason that you thought Sailor Moon had become scummier then Light or Kyon. You assert that you still want Light and Kyon dead, and Anonymous dead a little, but feel Sailor Moon's lynch will give more information. So basically, you think other people are scummier but you voted for her anyways when you weren't convinced she was scum. Please explain how this is a pro-town thought process.

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Now, to the uselessness point. Explain how that's scummy when I clearly suspected both of them of being scum?

Because being useless isn't a scum trait and isn't a reason to pick one over the other. It makes you sound like you're prioritizing your lynches for the wrong reasons.

Quote

Now as for Gumshoe's post. PRETTY sure I just liked it because it echoed my earlier thought process, which, IIRC, had not been changed regarding Sailor Moon's D1. Honestly, I STILL wasn't sure of Sailor scum until later in the day, I just could see where it was possible. "beginning to see" is not the same as "needs to die now"

Your original thought process was 'frustrated townie' right? Can you explain how that changed? As I've pointed out above, you never really addressed this. Her hypocriticalness obviously wasn't enough, and her post came off as VERY frustrated and as flailing derp. You can hold this same point against me but the question still stands towards you.

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As for Mai, I stand by her being obvious town D1 and still being obvious town. And supposing that she should be a "mislynch target"...HOW DOES THIS MAKE ME SCUM? What POSSIBLE fucking scum intent could you POSSIBLY be bullshitting from that post?

The part where you said Kyon sounded like he was telling his partner not to link to him then put him at L-1? You slipped from your Mai obvtown read at a very inconvenient moment. How do you think you would have followed up on this the next day if at that moment Kyon paniced and hammered himself?

Quote

I don't see anything else to answer for in this "case". Anyway, elaborate on the case CATS "stole", please. I might have missed this. May I ask how it should have been so obvious to me? I do not have a perfect memory. In fact, my mafia memory is VERY susceptable to getting skewed and having holes in it.

I will quote for you the relevant part because it's blatantly obvious.

Quote from: CATS on May 12, 2011, 09:23:39 AM

I is reading Gumshoe is case on Chitose, and i are having enjoy it. I will loving add: in post 250, Chitose is parrot of Monoe Post 210 in case against Kyon and acknoledging such. Disregards Kyon case is due to Kyon vote Light. Rest of posting is defend only. Only real next post is 329. In post, She is make excuse unvote light, and vote is Mai for disagree with vote style.

Keep in mind CATS hadn't mentioned Chitose at all before now. You seemed to think this was original and good when you read it, can you go back to this post and tell me if you still feel the same way?

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OH! I love Protoman's parting order of lynches. Wasn't I scummy for deflecting things off CATS? But if CATS is potentially not scum, doesn't part of your house of cards start collapsing? How very INTERESTING indeed!

Not really. If CATS isn't scum and you agreed with his case without properly reading it, it could just mean you were buddying up to another town's case, which has been your modus operandi all game. CATS being possible scum is the only read I have explicitly stated might not be correct and my cases on all three of my major suspects were built with that in mind.

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Honestly, I think you built this big rickety house of cards with the presumption that John Cage was scum, and were desperately trying to support it. I don't know WHY you would DO this though. There's very little that can be granted as objectively (or even subjectively) scummy in it. Happy?

Obviously it's because I hate you for agreeing with me so much. Since you choose not to answer the original questions I posed in my case, I will repost them for you now.

Quote from: John Cage

Anonymous' opening for this day makes me feel a little better about him. I also agree that his push for posts, particularly after posting his own case, was good. The only issue I have is he's only stating one strong opinion. I'd like to hear a wider spread of suspects, as soon as possible.

Why did Anonymous's case that sounded like a ragepost on CATS make you feel better about Anonymous?

Quote from: John Cage

And finally, Light is working VERY HARD to discredit NK analysis. Given how odd a kill Whim was (I personally would have killed Chitose, Mai, or Protoman), I think there's merit in it, though I think it'd be better to wait for a scum flip to go for it. Light's response was more or less trying to say it'd be useless all around. You seem nervous, Light~

One of these names is not like the other. Mai has been obvious mislynch material since Early Day 1 for using an intuition based scumhunting technique combined with excessive tunneling and not properly explaining her reads. You should have realized this. Why on earth would you think Mai was going to get killed Night 1?

I have a third question, in retrospect after re-reading your interactions with Light when he unvoted. Considering what I have pointed out about how terrible your push to convince him to revote was, do you or do you not think his unvote and refusal to revote was a pro-town action and why?