Mafia History Mafia - Game Over

[Faiz]

Try this, Mai. On the top of everyone's post, you can see Re: <topic title>. If you click it, your address bar has a direct link to that post. So, what I'd like you to do is direct link Moon's problematic posts, give a short blurb on why they are bad, and try to keep it as concise as possible. I'm aware this is difficult, as you can see with many of my posts this game. I see no need for quote stripes unless you want to make something stick out. (I'm going to assume you can at least use [url] tags. Also, I don't mean to sound condescending about how to direct link posts, I have an inkling that you aren't used to the quirks of this forum, mainly)

Eh. That's practically the same as [strike] bacon [/strike] quote strips.
 
I'll try though. >.<
 

[Kilgamayan]

Kyon (1): Monoe, John Cage
Light Yagami (5): Protoman.EXE, Mr. Crocker, Kyon, Chitose Karasuma, John Cage
CATS (1): Anonymous
Sailor Moon (2): Mai Tokiha, Light Yagami

No vote: CATS, Combo Breaker, The Comedian, Dick Gumshoe, Sailor Moon

With 14 alive, it takes 8 to lynch. You have about 55 hours to vote.

[Kick Hopper]

Not really. It's significantly more readable, at least in my eyes. quote strips are disjointed and force your eyes to focus on two different things. Links at least allow your eyes to rest on something consistent.

That said just get your case out there .

[Faiz]

It may not be up today. It will depend on how fast I'm able to get other things done.
 

[Sasword]

I changed my mind about the Light lynch being a good idea. Seems to me like people are just using it as an easy place to park their vote. Cage is the most blatant offender.

NK analyzing Whim is kind of silly. Whim played well D1 even if she wasn't the most vocal player, so she's not an unreasonable kill. I think that any "weirdness" of the kill choice is more likely to stem from scum PR hunting than scum killing somebody as an OMGUS.

Kyon and CATS are still scummy. Stop ignoring them, please. I don't have much else to say. I guess I could be convinced to go after Sailor Moon, because I definitely don't want a Light lynch today now. The wagon looks at least partially scum-motivated to me because of how easy it is to make a case on Light and how many votes the wagon has already gained. We don't even know the alignment of the player Light was targeting, it's honestly not that strong of a case.

@Gumshoe: I was glad because she was attacking one of the two people who I believe to be the scummiest in the present. It's a shame she seems to have ditched the case, though.

[Sasword]

Also, Gumshoe, so we're clear - I was not actually saying Chitose looked [i[townier[/i] for voting CATS, that's pointless without CATS' flip. I just agree with her choice of target in hindsight.

[Sasword]

Also, a quick search of Mai's recent posts shows that she's still ignoring my question.

[Decade]

Protoman wouldn't go as far as saying he doesn't want Boku no Kira deleted, but he was expecting most people to tag SOS Slave Boy. There aren't enough posts between the two of them that aren't scrambled waste. There also aren't enough posts from the people Protoman is watching behind his shades when they think he's not looking. Protoman will say he is not ignoring CATS, but is waiting for input. Has Boku no Kira done anything in his posts themselves to convince Monoe he is not a virus? What would Monoe think of a Headless 4chan lynch, or Headless 4chan in general?

[Faiz]

Also, a quick search of Mai's recent posts shows that she's still ignoring my question.

P.Sure I answered your question.
 
Which one was that again? I had to answer a LOT of questions. >.<

[Skull]

*Gumshoe suddenly wriggles his muscles, distorting his figure and producing another talking head!* "my body is just too big for one Pal."

I am the 2nd head, the dual brain, the lord of darkness!

Our posting styles will be disjoint, but town can trust that our opinions are one.  We have expressed interest in hearing more concrete opinions from Moon, but there is another who comes to our attention and has been largely overlooked.  Thy name be Chitose! :Thunderclap!:

As has been mentioned previously, though briefly, your vote on CATS came at an opportune time ED1 when the main focus was on Kyon, Mai, Protoman, and the Comedian.   Although you claim your vote on CATS is justified on the grounds that CATS targeted a non-content poster (prinny), your post seems equivlent to a vote park, while giving only modest (but fair) opinions only on Kyon and the Comedian accompanied by a "I would like answers" prod.  Basically it feels like a way to avoid the issue of "juicier stuff."  Your next post does little to assuage me of my fears.  There are now 2-3ish wagons and the content of your 2nd post boils down to a barrage of questions for everyone *except* Moon, who instead recieves a pep-talk.  It annoys me particularly that you say "Sailor Moon is a little scatterbrained with regards of who to vote, but  giving up defense and going ahead with telling us your thoughts, no matter how flimsy, is a pretty good point in contrast to people like Kyon and Mai getting bogged down with defense and self-love with nothing to offer."  I just don't see Kyon and Mai's posts as self-love and nothing to offer.  Kyons are mainly self-defense, Mai's look like town eagar to hunt scum.  Your post seems both dismissive of both while raining down questions to each of them while not taking a hard stance.  Moreover, your vote on CATS holds no weight at this point, as you have done nothing to pressure him.  Again, I still don't know who you find scummy, and can only fathom that your post is covering up vote parking. 

Man all these words for only 2 posts.  I never was good at editing.  Moving on to Chitose's thrid post.  Well finally we get a vote for one of the wagons!  It's done a little awkwardly to say the least.  Besides CATS you say that prinny is active lurking the most, and therefore, out of the two most vaible wagons prinny gets your vote.  This establishes the criterion that is your metric for voting someone, how much they lurk.  This to me is extremely counter-intuitive because of how little pressure you ever put on the "lurkers" and how many questions you threw at people posting content.   You have yet to judge the answers to your questions in particular and the other content of your questions' targets as scummy or townie actions.  As far as I can tell, the only definitive judgement you ever passed was on Moon, and that Moon was flimsy-reasoning-trying-town.  Furthermore, your bandwagon hop pushed the votecount to 5-4 Prinny.   I would say that you look worse than CATS from that wagon hop alone. 

Your last post jumps on Light.  Previously your favorite lurker was CATS, but you throw in a weak impromtu arguement saying that while Light thinks Moon is scum for scummy actions, you think his 2nd choice of scum (Kyon) based on active lurking to be tunneling as you point to yourself and Crocker as... material to be potentially accused of active lurking? Am I getting this right? I don't mean to misrepresent you, I just can't understand your justification for a Light vote for your reasons stated. 

I would like to ask you why you set active lurking as a higher priority than drawing conclusions from people who post content.  I feel your voting patterns and posts are scum motivated.
##Vote Chitose

[Faiz]

@Monoe: I think I see what you wanted.
 
Kyon is still town.

[Faiz]

The Prinny flip does nothing to change my Kyon read, if you were wondering that?

[Kick Hopper]

Just a quick post for Monoe. Yes, my vote is so totally opportunistic, and I haven't even mentioned Light Yagami all game. Nowhere in my posts have I been outlining why he needs to die. My bad.

Anyway, Monoe, I'm curious, if there are scum on the Light wagon, who are they? We agree Kyon is still scummy, though I feel he's improving. So, who else? I'll note that just because it's EASY to make a case on someone, does not invalidate that case.

@Mai: Where do you get a town read on Kyon? His actions are very scum intended.

I'll address Gumshoe's post when I have more time, but it should be clear I disagree with the conclusion.

[Faiz]

Just a quick post for Monoe. Yes, my vote is so totally opportunistic, and I haven't even mentioned Light Yagami all game. Nowhere in my posts have I been outlining why he needs to die. My bad.

Anyway, Monoe, I'm curious, if there are scum on the Light wagon, who are they? We agree Kyon is still scummy, though I feel he's improving. So, who else? I'll note that just because it's EASY to make a case on someone, does not invalidate that case.

@Mai: Where do you get a town read on Kyon? His actions are very scum intended.

I'll address Gumshoe's post when I have more time, but it should be clear I disagree with the conclusion.

My town read on Kyon comes from my reaction test at him early D1, and I've considered him town since.
 
I'm willing to re-evaluate later... but for the moment he's a town read.

[Sasword]

@Protoman: First of all. I personally believe that promising content then failing to deliver isn't scummy so much as an indication that the player is lazy. Laziness is typically not a scumtell from my experience. It may make me want to lynch Light out of irritation, but that's not lynching scum.

Aside from that, his D2 play hasn't been that horrible now that he's being forced to contribute. He does get a slight amount of points for sticking to his guns. I admit that my reserves about the Light wagon are more based in paranoia due to the way his wagon has been gaining steam, but I don't think that makes them invalid.

"Headless Anon"'s actual player looks like scum but I'm not sure whether or not the player slot is scum in this game. I'm getting the vibes of an unreliable townie from him, and could stand to hear from him about more players than just CATS today so that I have more to work with. I don't think we should lynch anybody who wasn't on the Prinny wagon regardless, the flipped D1 townie wagon is typically the best place to look for scum on D2. (Unless it's a remake of the Kisume wagon, in which case I will cry.) This opinion is amplified by the way the Prinny wagon came about, as I strongly believe there were at least two scum on it due to its origins. My picks for those two should be obvious at this point.

Warning - while you were typing a new reply has been posted. You may wish to review your post.
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The sudden amount of trains cutting me is a little irritating. I suppose that Madotsuki must be boarding them to get to the location of the Witch effect?

Gumshoe's post makes me a lot more interested in looking into Chitose. I admit that I have recently been finding her less pleasing due to the Light wagon jump. I will have to re-read her soon.

@ Mai: That does indeed answer my question. I assume you considered him to be town during late D1 as well?

@ John: Possibly Chitose. I intend to read her now that Gumshoe has posted his input. But I guess you just said you disagree with it, so.

[Sasword]

Also, Seccom Masada-sensei, I admit I wasn't really thinking when I named you earlier. Apologies for the... vaguely mis-reppish thing. ?( I think I might just have been irritated because people were suddenly ditching the case on Kyon.

[Faiz]

@Monoe: I was... -ahem-... absent during Late Day 1, due to certain personal issues.
 
But I have re-read the game, and I would still have considered him town at that point, yes.
 
I also would not have supported the Prinny wagon, as I stated in my only Late Day 1 post.

[OOO]

Alright, my D1 case on Kyon stands, and his D2 conduct more or less continues what I found scummy from him late in the day.  His original reasons for making cases boiled down to OMGUS-motivated lashing out to defend himself, and so now he's sticking to "safe" cases that others have made before him.  Definitely my top pick for scum.

##Vote Kyon

The continued claims that I haven't answered his questions when I clearly have don't help.  For the sake of argument, though, I'll answer any you have, as long as you post to reframe them so it's clear to everyone just what you're asking.  Preferably in the form of "Comedian, why did you..."

Mai, claiming a read on someone with no cited support is anti-town.  A stance with no reasoning behind it is hardly better than no stance at all.  Scumhunting requires not only examining what stance people have, it also requires examining the reasoning they used to reach that stance for whether it has town or scum intent.  Your case on Sailor Moon shows that you understand this principle, so your continued reads without evidence are scummy.  (Er, cut by a post that provides a slightly more substantial reason for the Kyon town read, too, but the point about posting reads without reasoning in general stands.)

That said, the case on Sailor Moon's D2 activity being scum-motivated so far is actually plausible, now that it's been posted.  Her lack of content today doesn't help her much.  I just noticed that her post against Anonymous actually didn't contain a vote, but the tone of the post is very OMGUS-y.  As the alternative wagon to flipped town, she should really be making doubly sure to have her stances clear from the start of the day.

Regarding Light, I was actually going into this day expecting him to be a major case of mine, but I've found his D2 much better than his D1, aside from the point about active lurking versus true lurking which has already been addressed, not to mention much more contentful.  A lack of content on D1 is bad, but generally not worth lynching above actual scum intent.  Lack of content both D1 and D2 is what starts to get into the realm of lynchworthiness, in my opinion.

[Faiz]

Really Comedian? Posting reads without giving reasoning is ANTI TOWN?
 
So I assume that gut reads are impossible for you yes? I'll be remembering this down the road. You better make sure every read you post has solid reasoning behind it.
 
I don't forget things.

[Decade]

@Protoman: First of all. I personally believe that promising content then failing to deliver isn't scummy so much as an indication that the player is lazy. Laziness is typically not a scumtell from my experience. It may make me want to lynch Light out of irritation, but that's not lynching scum.

Protoman disagrees. Laziness is a virus trait. Not bothering to make cases is a virus trait. Protoman also thinks Boku no Kira's contributions so far have been horrible. Protoman thinks Monoe might have trouble telling because Slave Boy is also horrible.

"Headless Anon"'s actual player looks like scum but I'm not sure whether or not the player slot is scum in this game. I'm getting the vibes of an unreliable townie from him, and could stand to hear from him about more players than just CATS today so that I have more to work with.

Protoman can't judge what Monoe thinks about Headless 4chan's player unless Monoe says who he thinks it is. Protoman thinks Monoe is wrong about who he thinks it is and that he should look at Headless 4chan's two posts Day 1 that fry Protoman's thought circuits without considering any trains they rode in on.

I don't think we should lynch anybody who wasn't on the Prinny wagon regardless, the flipped D1 townie wagon is typically the best place to look for scum on D2. (Unless it's a remake of the Kisume wagon, in which case I will cry.) This opinion is amplified by the way the Prinny wagon came about, as I strongly believe there were at least two scum on it due to its origins. My picks for those two should be obvious at this point.

Protoman doesn't base his targets on probability. Probability can be wrong. Protoman will take on any possible virus no matter where they stood. Protoman doesn't think Monoe should limit his targets completely either.

In conclusion this is still Protoman's opinion on SOS Slave Boy, Boku no Kira, Headless 4chan and Gumshoe:

ALL KILLED AND MANGLED

[Sasword]

I'm not going to straight-out say who I think that Reverse Severed Head Effect Anon is because that would be kind of lame. I probably should not have made that comment in the first place and I apologize to his player.

I'll respond to your other points later when I have the time to write a post that isn't miniscule. I've pretty much convinced myself that Light is not the lynch for today, so expect :words: about that. I know he can defend himself, but I strongly believe that town is barking up the wrong tree here and ignoring the scum in front of them. ?/

[Decade]

I wasn't trying to ask you to. It's just an awkward argument in his defense when neither of us can prove who it is or want to propose a guess. I'm asking you to disregard maybe meta completely in judgement.

[DiEnd]

@Gumshoe:

An interesting case, but sadly, I feel misrepresented on several counts.  I'm in a rush though.

My first vote on CATS came to being at a point where it hadn't been too long since he posted, thus it is a legitimate vote; every bit as legitimate as anyone's vote on Sailor Moon and Kyon; it was based on the fact that he only posted on Prinny and not saying a word on anyone else, and was a preferable person to vote compared to people who were actually playing the game.  On second post, the reason why I found Kyon and Mai 'self-loving' is because, especially in the case on Kyon, there was too much rhetoric in their posts, too much applying their own brand of reasoning without evaluating what they meant for town, what with Kyon still pushing that Comedian was being unreasonable when pretty much everyone disagreed with, and... the tone of voice Mai had regarding her axiomatic scumhunting(though I misinterpreted her).  Moon had at least some original evaluations, no matter how flawed, in terms of the Protoman discourse.... more original than people like Prinny then, I suppose.  I have nothing to say about my second post not projecting a sure stance, other than a somewhat growing suspicion on Kyon; I was merely waiting for CATS to see what he had to say.

Lastly, why are you asking for me to pressure lurkers and calling my last vote non-telegraphed when the reasons for their lynch were so obvious throughout the day.  I judge D1 voting targets by how useful they can be after N1 in drawing conclusions from bandwagon, and I found Prinny to be the least-desirable, due to obvious reasons.  Better to raise the unseen against the more interesting targets, than things that everyone are raising.

Most importantly, my vote on Light was based on the fact that his Kyon vote was not well-thought out; reasons that could equally be applied to Kyon about how he switched to Prinny due to his active lurking can be applied to us as well, who switched to Prinny due to active lurking too.  Also, he did not evaluate Kyon's earlier day one actions, which are an important part of his case (which I and others have raised so far).  Things against CATS are pretty much still implicit in the environment.

Well, more to come later.

[Kiva-la]

awkward

It seems people are set on hating me.
Also, when I say I was looking at Mai, I was looking for interesting things. Such as her accusation of The Comedian cheerleading the Prinny.

Firstly, Sailor Moon has yet to appear. I don't like this. I want reasoning behind your first three posts.
Secondly, alright The Comedian, I'll bite.

• What do you make of Whim accusing you of cheerleading?
• WHAT ABOUT MY FIRST VOTE WAS OMGUS-Y? I've been asking that for a while yet you STILL haven't answered me.
• How was it possible to make a case that didn't involve me during the the first three pages of the game?

I had more but I can't remember them right now.
CATS and C-C-C-COMBO BREAKER don't exist either. This is annoying.
And, to clarify since I worded it weirdly the first time apparently, my current thoughts on The Comedian are leaning towards scummy and I want answers to a couple of questions first.

[Sasword]

So. ?)

Further research into Reverse Severed Head Anon's posting history without considering potential meta has made me think that he is quite far from the epitome of townieness. Aside from his vote on Sailor Moon, a fair deal of his opinions seem to have no backing behind them. A lot of his conclusions seem to have no apparent thought process behind the, especially in #135. The theory that he's scum and therefore has no thought processes to share seems like a reasonable enough possibility to me, but it's not so notable of a case that I'd want him insta-lynched. His D2 has been pretty neutral so far, but I want to see him speak up about more players than just CATS.


Now, about Light. After thinking it over, I take back everything I said about him being a good lynch for today, because as far as I'm concerned, our current situation in this game makes Light a Bad D2 Case. Before I actually talk about why I think the case on Light itself is not a good choice for today's lynch, I'll go over why looking at the Prinny wagon is a superior option when compared to chasing people who were voting elsewhere.

First of all, remember the way Prinny conducted himself on D1. The waffly posts and lack of solid opinions made him what I would consider an easy target for scum. His actions were scummy by policy, which allowed scum to vote him and look like they were scumhunting without actually doing so. With this in mind, consider how the Prinny wagon itself ended up as the day's lynch by being a last resort that was piled onto at the end of the day. Since Prinny was an easy target, I do not believe that this last-minute dogpile really had town intent. There was little time remaining in the day when the Prinny wagon began to grow, and it was after Moon had already given her defense. Now, I don't know Moon's alignment, but there are two likely possibilities I can infer from the information about D1 that I do have:

• If Moon is scum, then her giant post of defense would be the perfect time for scum to strike and pile onto a counterwagon. With only 10 hours left in the day, it would be quite unlikely that the Sailor Moon wagon would have the time to regain steam, especially if Moon convinced enough townies to stop attacking her.
  
• If Moon is town, then scum would likely be intimidated by her wall of :words: and fear the possibility of town jumping off of her and onto a scum. Thus, by piling their votes on Prinny, the likelihood of town reforming and obtaining a scum lynch would be incredibly low.

There are other possibilities, like freak accidents or Prinny just being enough of a derp to draw a bunch of townie attention, but I do not find them to be as likely as the above. Because of this, a lot of the later people on the Prinny wagon who switched for reasons other than simply wanting Prinny gone over Moon (as in, people who aren't The Comedian or Dick Gumshoe) should be under heavy scrutiny. Kyon and Chitose are great examples of this, and CATS is notable as well for keeping his vote down at a critical juncture. But even then, pretty much anyone who jumped on the Prinny wagon before The Comedian is a better lynch for today than Light, with the exception of maybe Crocker.


As for Light himself, I understand that his failure to act on his promise to write significant amount of content is irritating. However, where is the scum intent? D1 lurking on its own is not scummy, and Light did evidently attempt to produce cases throughout the day. I personally think that Light's stance on Sailor Moon reads like it comes from somebody with a townie thought process trying to interpret the actions of their target, and I disagree that his stances were not strong enough because of this, but I suppose that view is rather subjective. For those who have interpreted his actions in a different manner, an explanation on why they did so would be greatly appreciated.

I will be eating ridiculous amounts of crow if Light dies after this post and flips scum, but ugh, this really is what I believe about how we should be approaching D2 on this game. Looking at people who were off the Prinny wagon isn't a bad idea, of course, but when it comes to choosing our D2 lynch... Seriously, guys, the way the Prinny wagon ended up as the D1 lynch looks a lot like something originating from scum intent, and I strongly believe it's our best bet for finding scum until we have more information on D3. To everyone voting for Light, I would at least like an explanation of why his actions are so horrible that they are worth prioritizing over the entire Prinny wagon, because I honestly can not understand why they would be. Maybe I'm just dumb, I don't know. But I certainly don't think that his wagon deserves the 5 votes that it has obtained so far. I believe that my post has made the manner in which I understand the Light case to be apparent as well, so if this all originates from me being completely confused about why Light is gaining votes, feel free to point that out.

I'm going to have to do the Chitose re-read sometime in the future now that I have finished this post, as the more I think about the Prinny and Light wagons, the less I like her. ?|

Apologies for the amount of :words: this post contains. I am awful at being concise in general. I also temporarily made my font color a little darker in hopes that staring into everything I wrote would be less likely to give others a headache, not sure if that helps.

[Kiva-la]

First, what do you mean wasting? And second, the second part of that sentence has syntax issues.

Yare yare. I missed this the first time I read through the last two pages.
When I saw your first night post, where you stated that you had the ability to talk at night and that you would actually read the game but did nothing else, I thought that that post was going to be your only post. Hence the "wasting". Your second night post gave me townie vibes.

Also desired from Sailor Moon: Why did you claim when you weren't the leading wagon?

Now, to look at everything else.
Firstly, Mai, do you have anything else that tells you that I'm town? Or is it purely gut?
Also, for those people questioning why I would try a nightkill analysis for the N1 kill. Simply because I could. It was my reason to read over Whim's posts in isolation, and whilst I couldn't find a solid nightkill reason, I did chance upon that accusation of The Comedian cheerleading that everybody ignored.
Cut by Monoe: Thoughts on Light? Firstly, useless during D1. This by itself doesn't mean all that much. However the attempt to redirect onto a vulnerable player in his #229 reeks of scum intent to me. In addition to that, in his #242, what? Is he telling me that I shouldn't even bother trying to analyze the night kill? Also of note is that the reasoning he uses can be applied to every night kill. It seems to me like he's trying to either discourage or discredit (or maybe both!) night kill analysis.

Go find that damn cat by yourself, Haruhi! I'm busy here.

[Sasword]

Honestly? I agree with Light's point about your NK analysis entirely and have no idea how him discrediting it is scummy.

[Sasword]

Actually... Shitaisan, let's pretend that every single post on D2 was removed from the game. Who would you be voting?

According to your most recent post, your Light case is founded entirely on D2 content and is shaky as well. I still think you're the scummiest alive right now. I'm still waiting for you to answer my question about how what Light has done is worse than the entire Prinny wagon, too, since I asked that towards everybody who is on the Light wagon.

[Kiva-la]

Honestly? I agree with Light's point about your NK analysis entirely and have no idea how him discrediting it is scummy.

It's the way he went about it in combination with his attempted redirect and general active-lurker-y play. Anyway, I'm open to any questions whilst I attempt to write up another post before being dragged off by Haruhi to god knows where.

Cut again. Every single post on D2 was removed, with no future posts from Sailor Moon? Then I would be voting for Sailor Moon for the reasons I stated in #234.

[Kick Hopper]

Monoe on NK Anal: *BZZT!* Wrong answer. Was it a bit premature? Yes. Was it pointless? No. Was Light at all correct in his fallacy when attacking Kyon for it? Hell no.

I've explained my stance thoroughly enough. You, are quite simply wrong.

As for why Light is a good lynch today over Kyon...it's mostly a matter of uselessness. If I have to pick between those two, Light is far more useless compared to Kyon. Bear in mind I still think they are both scum, just Kyon to a lesser degree. Light's "content" today has been fighting with Kyon and making a lot of noise, and a couple prods at Sailor Moon, the other commonly suspected name. Kyon, at the least, has started to go outside the narrow field of "people extremely likely to be lynched" I'll look over the Prinny wagon, but I have absolutely no concept of why you are clearing Light. As for the active lurking being scummy, I'll have to give you D1. I might as well have been active lurking and that was pure laziness. But on D2, his posting *hasn't actually improved*. He's *saying* more, but it's mostly rehashes of things he's already said, and only covers a narrow scope of players. IT IS NOT PRO TOWN CONTENT. It is content that's trying to appease the general will of the town by throwing anyone who's not him under the lynch wagon. It's to the point I question if Kyon and Light can be scum together, and if only one of them is, it's Light.

So, combining the D1 active lurking with the D2 narrow focus, I see a lot of scum in Light.