Mafia History Mafia - Game Over

[Kiva-la]

followed up

To add the first part of my previous post.
Spoiler (HUGE REVEAL): I can still question people that I agree with to try to get a glimpse of how they arrived at the same conclusion that I did. Because people can reach the same destination whilst taking completely different routes.

[Kiva-la]

Whim

Actually, I've been rereading Whim.
Basically, what reason would scum have to kill her?
Her last actions of the day were to vote for Sailor Moon and to point out The Comedian's cheerleading which everyone, including The Comedian, ignored. Basically, The Comedian, I want you to explain yourself.

[Kaku Seiga]

So what? I wanted to know John Cage's thought process. Does that make you any less scummy? Nope.

... :V
And you can't see that it might be possible for me to have wanted to know the same thing you did when you asked that question? Oh well, whatever.

No, I'm not calling active lurking not scummy. But by itself and on D1, it's more simply useless than really scummy; it can go either way. Contrast that to what you've written about Moon. Lynching someone who's useless, when there's other people to lynch that are scummy for things other than being useless, seems strange to me.

And for that WIFOM in #241: Reasons that scum could have had to kill her include her attacking Gumshoe and her attacking me. And if you just let your imagination run wild, there's a lot of other reasons to come up with. Does that tell us anything?

[Kiva-la]

And for that WIFOM in #241: Reasons that scum could have had to kill her include her attacking Gumshoe and her attacking me. And if you just let your imagination run wild, there's a lot of other reasons to come up with. Does that tell us anything?

Did I say anything about those? I'm not going to claim scum reads from dead people's votes because of how misleading (if that is the right word) it can be. The thing I want to know about Whim's observations is that accusation of The Comedian cheerleading.

[pesco]Posts were nuked and rearranged[/pesco]

[Kiva-la]

Chrome incognito windows. How do they work?

[Kaku Seiga]

Did I say anything about those? I'm not going to claim scum reads from dead people's votes because of how misleading (if that is the right word) it can be. The thing I want to know about Whim's observations is that accusation of The Comedian cheerleading.

Then what was "what reason would scum have to kill her?" for? The other part is fine, it's just that sentence that irks me.

[Decade]

Protoman apologizes for any problems with earlier postings. Protoman's operator tried to change his operating system to Windows Vista. All offending internal viruses have been purged.

As a matter of fact, I want someone to explain to my why Sailor Moon is town.
 
I presented reasons why Sailor Moon was scum yesterday. I never saw ANY of those points refuted, and I see no reason why Sailor Moon has become any BETTER.

Protoman thinks Mai's reasons earlier are too subjective to vote with. Protoman would like Mai to present her case again including Sailor Moon's post #153 and what you find wrong with it. Protoman is not reasonable. Protoman still needs to see where Mai's feelings come from to understand them. Also, Protoman asked something here that Mai didn't answer, do so. Protoman wants to hear who else Mai thinks is a virus right now.

Protoman also wants Sailor Moon to stop attacking Headless 4chan because she doesn't like headless people and make a case based on his posts instead. Why do you think he is a virus? Why did your last post at the end of Day 1 which sounded like you really thought you were going to be lynched after sound like pointless throwing around names instead of actually trying to help us find any viruses that were trying to lynch you? Why are you not actually looking at any of those Navis right now? Answering these questions will help you if you are town.


Protoman's suspects are fighting! This makes Protoman happy. Protoman is covering the KIIIIRA side.

John Cage: If you think I'm scum for not taking any strong stance, you should maybe, like, also go after Combo Breaker for... not taking any stance at all. :V

Active lurking as opposed to not being here at all is not the same. Boku no Kira looks worse because he was here and pretended nothing happened. Kira looks worse for saying this now instead of yesterday when he was silent and might have been deleted.

Actually both SOS Slave Boy and Boku no KIRA's posts #237 and #238 look terrible. Are these suposed to be your other possible virus suspects? Slave Boy says Cage looked bad but looks good now and Comedian looks hard to read and is pretty null. Boku no Kira thinks CATS looks bad for focusing on my new Penguin Hat but can kind of see why. No opinion on Combo because he isn't here yet. So who else do you two think is a virus again? Still voting for both killed and mangled. Suspects, with cases, now.

[Skull]

Hello there, y'all. Still trying to get communication going with my partner, so bear with me here. I'll also be going over the previous Gumshoe's opinions. Crocker has been noted and we will answer him shortly.

I just have a quick question for Protoman.EXE since he's awake and here. I noticed that you were off both wagons at the end of the day with your vote parked on John Cage instead, despite telling people to vote for Prinny. Interestingly, I didn't see a concrete opinion from you on Prinny at the end of the day. Could you elaborate on Moon and Prinny, or at least what you were thinking about them at the end of the day?

[Decade]

Protoman didn't like either wagon by the end of Day 1. Protoman realized who my Penguin Hat was and that they're kind of just like that. Protoman was hoping Penguin Hat would appear sooner then ten minutes before his lynch so Protoman could question him. Protoman is annoyed other Navis solidified both wagons when many posted really wanting to delete someone else. Too many Navis did this for all of them to be viruses, so Protoman is just irritated at town in general.

Protoman doesn't regret pushing Cage to read the board. Cage was being extremely silly. Protoman thinks Cage looks much better now.

[Decade]

Oh, Protoman just looked at that post Gumshoe linked. Protoman didn't want just anyone to vote for my Penguin Hat. Protoman wanted Sailor Moon to unvote and revote Penguin Hat. Protoman was hoping Penguin Hat was claiming to be a bomb. Protoman is disapointed Penguin Hat didn't explode. Since Gumshoe would be deleted Protoman suposes he has different feelings about a Prinny Bomb.

[DiEnd]

@Mai:  You still have not answered my questions here,  I suppose.  Also, there are some things not so clear about your scumhunting; are you still pursuing the Dick Gumshoe case in light of yesterday's flip?  I also feel a worrying sense of active lurking from you towards the later part of D1; though this may be due to business from your part, since here two pages worth of content have passed by since your last post without being discussed.  This is in contrast to her earlier day 1, where you seemed more involved.  Also, I want to ask, why Sailor Moon yesterday instead of Prinny?  Yes, there are reasons for Moon being scum but in what way were they stronger than Prinny's for you to dismiss the building up of the Prinny wagon?  All these makes me feel quite sketchy about you.

===

I feel that Kyon look the worst D1, barring Prinny and all the lurkers.  As Monoe said, he starts of kind off with a rather strong attitude, causing a bit of scandal, but after she changed his vote to Sailor Moon there's a sense that he receded into the background and concentrated on talking only about lurkers and the obvious targets for the rest of the day (at least Mai talked about Gumshoe a bit).  There's also the point where Kyon still holds on to The Comedian's first vote on him being wrong in D2, even though most of us don't seem to agree.  He does look a little better D2 due to having the most interesting Light case, though, but as of now, he's pretty suspicious.

===

Also, Light, other than defending himself (bordering on semantics with all the grammar, sadly), still has yet to give opinions on people who haven't been under fire, which strikes me as laziest out of Sailor Moon, Annonymous and all those in that group (except CATS).  There's also a sense of nitpicking in his posts, some of which seem inane, like this one...

Kyon: Scummy, currently my second pick after Moon. Specifically, going after Prinny basically for active lurking instead of staying on Moon who had actually done scummy things looks bad to me..

I'm quite interested to know why this only applies to Kyon instead of people like me and Crocker who have chosen Prinny instead of Moon for pretty much the same reasons.  Also, the fact that you missed without analysis the point that is most unique to Kyon; his early day one votes against Comedian and Protoman.  This suggests pretend scumhunting on Light's part in the most blatant and sure way, and I think he deserves the vote more than the other two above who I find strange.

##Vote: Light

[Kilgamayan]

Kyon (2): Monoe, John Cage
Light Yagami (4): Protoman.EXE, Mr. Crocker, Kyon, Chitose Karasuma
CATS (1): Anonymous
Sailor Moon (2): Mai Tokiha, Light Yagami

No vote: CATS, Combo Breaker, The Comedian, Dick Gumshoe, Sailor Moon

With 14 alive, it takes 8 to lynch. You have 61 hours to vote.

[Faiz]

@Chitose:
 
If you failed to see the together part of my post, it's probably not due to my tone of voice. More likely it's caused by your inability to read carefully.
 
Secondly, it is very easy to say: "ONE OF KYON/MAI MUST BE SCUM" and then lynch both of them. The reasoning, and the logic behind this maneuver for scum is that they know the first person they lynch will flip town. Once that person flips town, the scum who suggested the false dichotomy above just pushes the second players wagon under the pretense that "If Player A flipped town, I'm positive Player B is scum~!".
 
This is how scum!Gumshoe could be setting up mislynches.
 
He was fence-sitting due to his unwillingness to take a stance on Me vs. Kyon until pushed to do so.

[Skull]

Other head has yet to check in, so he'll be placing a vote down then. Some quick comments first.

Looking over Moon from yesterday, I'm not sure why she suddenly felt the need to claim Vanilla Townie at deadline. I also don't really like Moon's defensive tone, or how she keeps making excuses for not making cases. That said, I don't think she's scum at the moment, as she looks more like extremely emotional derp town. The lack of content beyond that one monster of a post is bad though. Please produce instead of popping in and out just to make side comments.

Anonymous, want to comment on the major wagons of the day or are you just going to go off on a side tangent on CATS? Not that CATS isn't bad, but I want to hear what you have to say about Light/Kyon at least.

Speaking of CATS, I can't decipher CATS at all. What I can tell is that his D1 activity consists of RP + wagon hop. I don't think I need to explain why this is bad.

Hi, Mai.

Secondly, it is very easy to say: "ONE OF KYON/MAI MUST BE SCUM" and then lynch both of them. The reasoning, and the logic behind this maneuver for scum is that they know the first person they lynch will flip town. Once that person flips town, the scum who suggested the false dichotomy above just pushes the second players wagon under the pretense that "If Player A flipped town, I'm positive Player B is scum~!".

Could you elaborate on which of Gumshoe's posts implies that he was pushing this? I can't seem to find it. Also, it would be nice if you could elaborate on how Sailor Moon is obvscum as opposed to derptown. Perhaps link those points you were talking about. Also, you seemed like you supported a Prinny lynch earlier in D1, so I just want to know what your stance on it was by the end of the day beyond just "wagon grew too fast, scum must be bandwagoning, ho!"

@Chitose: I'm not sure I understand the distinction you draw between a Kyon vote and a Light vote in your post here. Are you really trying to base scumminess off ED1 votes?

@Monoe: This is a curious point, but why are you giving Chitose brownies points for a vote on CATS when that paragraph was talking about the Prinny wagon?

Uh, current thoughts on the Kyon/Light slapfight is that the situation is possibly town/town. Light is the scummier of the two though for reasons that should be explained later.

[Faiz]

It seems Gumshoe likes implying that stances on people cannot change.
 
I originally supported a Prinny lynch, but once I saw how fast people abandoned Sailor Scum and hopped onto Prinny, it makes me feel like there was scum who voted opportunistically there.
 
Opportunistic scum on a bandwagon usually, (but does not always) implies that it's not bussing.
 
That being said, I understand also that the deadline was 48 hours, and that things may be rushed in that sense. I'm merely keeping my eye on the people who jumped on that wagon.
 
I have presented my case on Sailor, and I have asked that someone show me how she is town .
 
I do no not accept the "Oh, she reads like derptown" argument. I read intent, rather that "scum tells", and the intent behind her actions is VERY clear. Yes, she is obvious scum. Yes, her play is bad. You know why it's bad? Because she's flailing scum who's trying to escape, and you're enabling that escape by even referring to her as potential derptown.
 
I want someone to show me ANY POST where Sailor Scum had a TOWN INTENT. I don't want anymore of this "frustrated town" crap. Give me solid reasons please, and not these gut read reasonings.

[Faiz]

I'm still not liking the Mai/Kyon mechanics going about here. They're distancing from each other - Kyon by saying he's suspicious of Mai but only by proxy of Protoman, and Mai by holding Prinny to crimes while ignoring Kyon doing the exact same.

But Moon is...I can't think of a goddamn word for it. One of those fancy words Mr. Edgeworth likes using. Unintelligerbil? Something like that.

I prefer Mai/Kyon because they seem co-ordinated and less likely to be random flailing townies. As such, keeping my vote where it is for now.

This post shows Gumshoe's belief that Kyon and I are scum together, with the worst possible logic.

[Faiz]

EBWOP: And then he goes on to push that Kyon is scum regardless of me, and later vote Kyon.
 
He also continues to use Meta reasoning against me... in an alias game.

[Decade]

Protoman gets upset if he gets ignored three times. Protoman hopes this isn't what happens.

Mai. You think there were viruses on Prinny. You used the number two. Which ones do you think were scum and why?
Your case on Sailor Moon is as much gut read reasonings as everyone that thinks she could be frustrated town. Earlier you just quoted a post and didn't even say what about it you read as scum intent. I am asking you to show me how she is scum and explain it instead of just saying something looks bad. Don't explain how she's bad to me. Explain how scum benefited from it. Protoman likes quotes with parts pointed out for emphasis. Pretend Protoman is blind and illiterate when you write for him.

[Skull]

@Mai: Mmm, I can't deny that his case linking you and Kyon was silly, given it was based off ED1 shenanigans. Can't really answer to the meta reasoning bit except that he probably didn't know what he was talking about.

On Sailor Moon, I find her posts defensive and reactionary, but the actual points she make are not disagreeable. Let's take this post. Okay, so the first half is completely useless, I'll give you that. But she makes several good points in the latter half and the intent I get from that post is that she is trying to make cases on other people she finds scummy, cases which look pretty valid to me. So, that specific post is not that bad, and is probably the post that is giving most of us townish or at least not-scum reads. The rest of her activity is pretty bad, yes. I don't think I would call bad play immediately scummy though. That said, Sailor Moon really should get in and make a proper case.

[Skull]

EBWOP: Also, lack of town intent != scum intent. Otherwise we'd just go with policy lynches all game.

[Faiz]

The post I quoted i

Ok this just flipped me the wrong way:We are 1 hour into day 2 and instead of you making an actual post, you just want to cruise in on responses like you have been doing. You trying to make me flip my shit today when you should know posts like these are coming and you just seem to be trying to act helpful when that's such a load of crap anyone could get by on wanting people to post.

Here is the intent behind this post. Sailor Scum received a great deal of PRESSURE yesterday. Much of it came for not making cases and postings useless content. She also came under fire for being overly defensive, using AtE, and being opportunistic in her voting (following me onto Kyon, and then backing off when I left).
 
So today, she comes out guns blazing, attempting to find some kind of place to attack. She chooses an easy target (anonymous) because he has not posted much,and can be easily attacked for some of the same things she was yesterday.
 
The only problem is that her points aren't exactly true, and they were fabricated. There is nothing scummy with what Anonymous did. She tries to play it up as scummy by using syntax like "this flipped me the wrong way".
 
When is reality, her intent was to dodge the question that Anonymous posed to her .
 
If you notice, Sailor Scum was on the list of people Anon wanted to hear from. Sailor directly quotes the post, and instead of giving her top suspects, she attacks Anon for his scum hunting methods.
 
This isn't town. This is scum who is flailing and trying to avoid pressure again today by any means possible.

[Faiz]

But Gumshoe, this is definite scum intent. It's BAD scum. But it's scum.

[Skull]

Okay, that's a pretty good point, and I see where you are coming from now . I do think that that post reeks more of frustration (whether fake or real) than anything though. I'm mostly waiting to see if he actually delivers that post he's promising or if he's just stalling.

[Faiz]

Protoman gets upset if he gets ignored three times. Protoman hopes this isn't what happens.

Mai. You think there were viruses on Prinny. You used the number two. Which ones do you think were scum and why?
Your case on Sailor Moon is as much gut read reasonings as everyone that thinks she could be frustrated town. Earlier you just quoted a post and didn't even say what about it you read as scum intent. I am asking you to show me how she is scum and explain it instead of just saying something looks bad. Don't explain how she's bad to me. Explain how scum benefited from it. Protoman likes quotes with parts pointed out for emphasis. Pretend Protoman is blind and illiterate when you write for him.

This post is being noted for later.
 
Anyway, onto answering your question. I've now explained that last post I quoted. I have also given reasons of AtE, over-defensiveness and opportunism.
 
Would you like me to explain how scum benefits from those three things? Or do you believe yourself competent enough to understand why scum would want to use these methods?
 
I think it is the second one, but please do to be notifying me if it's the first~
 
My Answer in a non- abrasive and insulting way: If you don't understand the intent behind those three things, I'll explain it.

[Faiz]

Oh, and as for the other scum on the wagon, allow me some time to read through them all, how they joined the wagon, their posts prior to joining the wagon, and how scummy they are overall.
 
I'll get back to you with my top two choices.

[Decade]

Protoman accepts your reasoning for the previous post. Protoman doesn't think highly of Headless 4chan but agrees Sailor Moon's attack and reasoning for attacking that post were bad. Protoman thinks it would help you convince other Navis to delete Sailor Moon if Mai did the same thing with Sailor Moon's larger post. Protoman has also asked Sailor Moon questions that he expects answers from. Protoman would still like to hear who else Mai believes is a virus. Gumshoe can be one name, there should be a second Navi identified. Protoman can wait for the answer.

Protoman doesn't really need to be explained to. His sunglasses don't make him blind. Protoman wears sunglasses at night because they look cool.

[Kick Hopper]

All right, starting from post 216, I agree I'm not a fan of anonymous, he is, in fact, one of my null reads. This could change easily. Monoe, in my night post, I think I echoed Protoman about the fact that Gumshoe was flinging dirt at Mai for potentially being "too town to be town". This could easily have been derp, but it's notable.

Anonymous' opening for this day makes me feel a little better about him. I also agree that his push for posts, particularly after posting his own case, was good. The only issue I have is he's only stating one strong opinion. I'd like to hear a wider spread of suspects, as soon as possible.

Sailor Moon, fun fact. There's a post before his pressure one, that actually outlines a case on someone. Granted, it's one person but...it's better than you've started the day with, even if that's not really your "post". If you were truly concerned with giving a strong opening, was there no reason that little blurb could not have found it's way into a more comprehensive post?

Mai is beginning to convince me of this on Sailor Moon. But I *really* don't want to drop Kyon or Light.

Light: That's nice, but what about the other cases that Moon proposed? There were at least three I could count, even though they made up about 25% of her post combined. What was bad about those?

I also enjoy your reporter style analysis of Crocker, and then your "Why not THAT guy?" against myself. I'll tell you why not THAT guy. You've actually been posting and not producing anything of use. C-C-C-COMBO BREAKER appears to be busy, possibly to the point of being replaced. I.e., active lurking, at least at this stage, is far worse than lurking.

Eh, why the hell not. ##Unvote, Vote Light Yagami

Light 231: Show not tell. I'd love to see a link to this supposed behavior.

Kyon 233: Ah, thank you, I never was able to figure out why you voted Protoman. And, I can't say I'm impressed. A chainsaw defense is NULL until one of the parties flips. You don't use associative tells to implicate someone without flips. So, yes, your vote came off as OMGUSy with bad reasoning. I still have no issues with The Comedian. Mm, not sure how I feel about your Prinny/SM reasoning. I'm going to *have* to give you a pass on Prinny since I was thinking the same thing about him being useless. Your SM thing bugs me because the wagon on her looked to me more like a perfect case of opportunism on a bad player, something MotK is known for.

Kyon! Thoughts on people who aren't as likely to get lynched today? Rather, people you think are scum that currently aren't being pushed a lot. It's easy to implicate both Moon and Light. Do some actual work.

Light 235: OK, Sailor did some associative telling, and badly. What about Kyon and Gumshoe who did the same D1? Kyon connected Mai and Proto. Gumshoe connected Mai and Kyon. Sooooo?

I was originally going to yell at John Cage for wasting his night talk, but then some stuff that looks good before the game started.

First, what do you mean wasting? And second, the second part of that sentence has syntax issues.

Kyon 237: If I started to look bad and then got better, perhaps you're looking for the wrong intent. Not sure how I feel about the fencesit on Comedian.

Kyon 241: Not enough information yet to draw conclusions from the Whim kill. I...THINK I like the fact you're trying though. I'd say let it rest until we have at least one flipped scum.

Light:
BIGREDX.JPG

Your post suddenly makes me want to look more at the Whim kill. You feel like you're trying to trivialize the concept of analyzing the kill, as opposed to rationally disagreeing with it. Secondly, you're completely wrong about active lurking, particularly when it's the *only thing you've done*

Echoing Protoman's desire for Mai to restate her case. ...AND Protoman's desire for Kyon and Light to get more into who's scum.

Gumshoe's post rubs me the wrong way. Particularly that last town/town comment. Particularly with the soft language that actually just says "Well, Kyon/Light could be town/town, town/scum, or scum/scum, but I'm going to go with whichever one is fact to refer back to when someone flips." I also detect misrep of at least Chitose, and potentially Mai. Not getting good vibes from you.

OK. Gumshoe 258 makes me feel a lot better since it's basically saying the same reasons I found Sailor Moon town.

Mai, do you have any other scum intended posts from Mai? You said you had a case on D1.

All right, caught up, will post my conclusions in a more readable format, though not much has changed.

[Kick Hopper]

So, first, Light Yagami is at L-3!

Secondly, I want him dead today. Kyon looks MARGINALLY better since I feel he's spending less time defending himself and more time trying to produce content for the town. That said, his focus has been mainly on the targets people have mentioned already as "willing to lynch". i'd like to see him come up with something outside of Sailor Moon and Light. Now.

Thirdly, I'm slowly becoming convinced of Sailor Moon scum. Her first post was terrible and honestly hypocritical. I am eager to see Mai's D1 reasoning and see what I think. Links will help.

Fourthly, the quoted portion in the above post is directed at Kyon and I'd like that question answered.

Fifthly, didn't like Gumshoe's opening post, liked his post about how Sailor Moon was town intended.

And finally, Light is working VERY HARD to discredit NK analysis. Given how odd a kill Whim was (I personally would have killed Chitose, Mai, or Protoman), I think there's merit in it, though I think it'd be better to wait for a scum flip to go for it. Light's response was more or less trying to say it'd be useless all around. You seem nervous, Light~

[Faiz]

Mai, do you have any other scum intended posts from Mai? You said you had a case on D1.

I'm going to assume you meant Moon for the second Mai? :3
 
If so, yes. I could theoretically grab all the quotes and make a quote wall.
 
If it is the will of the town, I will make a massive quote wall, with quote strips. (Bacon Strips, Moar Bacon Strips. Jack Daniels Sauce)
 
However, if you find it to your liking, I could just go find one or two quotes that support each of the four main planks of my case, these being:
 
Sailor Scum's AtE
Sailor Scum's Over Defensive posting
Sailor Scum's opportuinism
Sailor Scum's deflections and avoiding issues, often by using defensive posting.
 
Would that be to your liking? Or do you want the full comprehensive story of Sailor Scum's life?

[Kick Hopper]

Try this, Mai. On the top of everyone's post, you can see Re: <topic title>. If you click it, your address bar has a direct link to that post. So, what I'd like you to do is direct link Moon's problematic posts, give a short blurb on why they are bad, and try to keep it as concise as possible. I'm aware this is difficult, as you can see with many of my posts this game. I see no need for quote stripes unless you want to make something stick out. (I'm going to assume you can at least use [url] tags. Also, I don't mean to sound condescending about how to direct link posts, I have an inkling that you aren't used to the quirks of this forum, mainly)