A Balanced Game of Mafia (Over; town wins)

[Omba]

Omba, if you are the cop, just fucking claim it now. You've made it manifestly obvious you have a guilty on Bardiche. Confirm this.
If you are not the cop, you might as well claim that too and post a case on Bard. You're giving off obvious cop tells.

Here's why I'm just asking this outright rather than pretending I can't tell. We had a scum lynch D1. We had a missed kill N1. If we lynch scum today, we'll essentially have traded the cop for two scum. THIS IS A GOOD TRADE

I'm not the cop, but my case on Bard still rests on me claiming.
Hi, I'm the Town Doc. Last night, I protected Kiro. Today, Bard comes barging in with his first longer :content: post and completely dedicates it to attacking Kiro and me. Attacking Kiro directly after nightkilling him failed is fairly obvious and I assume he's attacking me because he guessed I'm the Town Doc. Well, my reference to Kiro in #306 was a little obvious, now that I look at it.
Meh, shit. I had planned to give the other scum an easy chance to go after me and fuck himself up that way. Guess I should just have waited instead.
That said,

##Unvote
##Vote: Bardiche

[UncertainJakutten]

* UncertainKitten face palms.

Omba. You should not have claimed that. At ALL!

It's no where near certainty. That said, I notice Bard is playing cutely by ignoring all the popular wagons and going for unpopular ones for town cred.

Ugh, I guess I have to reread Bard after all.

But seriously? Future games: Don't EVER claim doctor with that reasoning.

[Bardiche]

* Bardiche facepalms, too.

Ri-iiiight. That just clears Kiro, it doesn't condemn me - you're basing yourself on WIFOM there. It's like I'm playing DtB mafia again with some derper going all "OMG BARD FUKD UP" but never realising the logic doesn't hold water. A post-game discussion on what is and is not a proper time to claim is in order.

Just to be clear on this: your entire attack bases itself on "a scumBard would do this!", which we call "WIFOM", and it is one of the seriously weakest things ever. That you further postulate I have massive powers of deduction that can tell Town Doc at a glance is further laughable: I had no inkling you had a role until you elegantly revealed that in your attack on me.

I think a mentor for Ombra would have been in order. There's a good time to claim Doc and use it to help town saunter to a good future. Now is not that time.

I think Polaris is surprisingly erudite even if he focused solely on Dan as being the sole contender of scum on D1, with the rest being three kinds of neutral.

Need to pore over the rest's posts again to orient myself. I already know I won't support lynches on Kiro (any longer), Ombra and Dan, although the latter two rather reluctantly because I think they're obnoxious and terribad at the game. That's never been good reasons for lynches, though, so I'll have to begrudgingly content myself with voting someone truly scummy.

##Unvote

[ActionDan]

@anyone who cares, does anyone know a good easy way to hyperlink specific posts with the hyperlink option? One example from anyone explaining how they hyperlinked a specific post would suffice, Thanks!

[UncertainJakutten]

Like this?

You see above that post where it says "Re: A Balanced Game of Mafia (DAY 2)"? That's clickable. It takes you to a DIRECT hyperlink to that post. Copy the url from your address part, and paste it. If you want to do what I did up there, use the code:

Code: [Select]

[url=*link*]Smartass comment[/url]

[ActionDan]

Awesome! thank you

[GMOFucker: Makin' GMOs To Fuck 'Em]

I actually believe Omba's claim due to the circumstances. He's irritating but I'm willing to give him a pass for now barring a counterclaim.

So hey, Sect still needs to die. His beginning of the day case boiled down to "Dan is a bad player and should be lynched", which isn't lynching actual scum and supports the notion that he's looking for ways to vote townies, and it bugs me that people are considering the Sect case for the same reasons when he actually has been genuinely scummy. His recent posts have not changed my opinions at all.

Shadoweh's case on UK boils down to a conspiracy theory. <___< I know UK can defend herself, but... why would you lynch her today over somebody who was actually off the Dormio wagon? That makes no sense. In fact, the trend of turning everybody's scumhunting towards people who could have been bussing is a little irritating. I'm not saying we shouldn't be looking at them, it's just that I honestly don't think they're optimal lynches when we have scum like Sect in plain sight. Because of this, I'm rather suspect of Bard, who seems to only be attacking people who were caught on the scum wagon, and I honestly can't see much stock in his Kiro case either. Considering how Bard was one of the main people on the Dan wagon during late D1 even though his reasoning for getting on seemed to revolve heavily around Dan simply being a derp, I'd be willing to lynch him if the Sect wagon doesn't get enough support.

[ActionDan]

As promised I'll answer Bard's counters.

In response to my case against Bard, Bard posts what I assume are his "counters".

I am more hesitant NOW to give UK a pass BASED ON. This is a reference to the last game where I excused UK's behaviour as townie based on that she usually acts that way: voting someone without making it immediately clear what her vote reasons are.

This is a reference from Bard's post #71 which was made while Bard's vote was still on UK.  The above quote suggests that Bard had given UK a pass previously in other games AS WELL AS in this game up until this point in time; still your vote was on her for the entire beginning of the game, which means up till post #71 you had no reason to change it.  In fact, in post #71 Bard ramps it up, demanding to know UK's case on HW, parroting what has already been asked by HW.  After UK gives a case on HW, Bard unvotes her because he was never serious....he just wanted dicussion (yet everyone has plopped down a serious vote by now and his last post suggested he was serious). the rest doesn't say much else except that I'm a null-tell, and prods Dormio about kiro.

Mudslinging = voting UK originally for shoddy reasons, I already stated my feeling on this.

Tunneling: as far as I am concerned the person he has "focused on most" was UK until now.  Also dividing attention = defending against me, and one poke on HW, a.k.a fence sitting.  To try and fix that he declares me a misguided town to try and dismiss me, while plopping on a late vote for shadow, someone he hadn't even paid any "attention" to.

[ActionDan]

Actually the reason he voted Shadow is given as It feels like you're attempting to force town to focus on either HW or UK today, which is shoddy!


yet in the same post he asks two things:

Of Shadow: "Please restate your case for Huh What, ignoring that he voted UK."
Of Sect: "Sect! Elucidate why between HW and UK, UK is the scummier one as per this post."

The questions themselves don't bother me, it's the reason Bard voted shadow that does.

[Omba]

But seriously? Future games: Don't EVER claim doctor with that reasoning.

This can probably wait until post-game; but yes, I fucked something up there.

Just to be clear on this: your entire attack bases itself on "a scumBard would do this!", which we call "WIFOM", and it is one of the seriously weakest things ever.

No, actually the starting point for the argument is that I assume you've got brains. Otherwise, yes, I'd end up with WIFOM and would not have said anything.

[Bardiche]

Ombra, your entire "omg u must haf brains" assumes scum'd be so goddamn retarded it's not even funny. No, there is no wisdom in scum trying to lynch Kiro: scum typically attack what they think is the towniest person in the game, and that person is usually most difficult to lynch. If scum decided Kiro was that person, why in the hell would a scumBard attempt to even try and lynch that person? Your scenario assumes scum is goddamn retarded. You're still left with a shaky WIFOM reasoning that you blew your claim on.

Then ActionDan:

The above quote suggests that Bard had given UK a pass previously in other games AS WELL AS in this game up until this point in time

Full post for reference, you're stating the obvious. I excused behaviour I'd otherwise find scummy, but also wanted her to stray from her meta and explain her eD1 vote after claiming she could. Maintaining my vote on her would lend incentive to answer that question (not that she did), but I simply could not see a scum!UK busting in so aggressively from the get go.

Mudslinging = voting UK originally for shoddy reasons

It's the first post I made and it's at the top of page 2. How many people need to tell you that reasoning is awful before you'll be prepared to believe it?

There are good reasons to accuse me of scum. Sadly, neither Ombra nor ActionDan produce these reasons. I can think of a few myself, why are you two failing at it so hard?

--

As far as scum goes, ##Vote: Hanged Hourai. Please elucidate the reasoning stated herein for voting me, as it doesn't drive left nor right. Your attack on me is "Bard didn't mention Dormio much", "Dormio didn't mention Bard much", "Bard voted ActionDan which put him in the lead". Remember what train you were on at the time, and how rooted you were in supporting that case.

My reasons for voting ActionDan was "respond to counters", which he only does just up above. I am perfectly fine with lynching someone if they push a mediocre case but refuse to explain why it isn't mediocre in light of rebuttals to raised points.

In short, I am scum (according to you) because I never mentioned Dormio much, and then because Dormio didn't mention me much and because I voted ActionDan for ignoring the case he was sitting on. Given it's become D2, I think you can do better than that on me.

[Bardiche]

And yeah, I don't care if that's a textbook OMGUS. Other than being the first on Dan and continuously prodding Dormio to elaborate on content, HH hasn't done anything on D1, so I'm content with it.

Also, I forget I actually made a post before I voted UK, but it's a jokevote so I'm going to pretend it never happened. :V

[ActionDan]

There are good reasons to accuse me of scum. Sadly, neither Ombra nor ActionDan produce these reasons. I can think of a few myself, why are you two failing at it so hard?

Care to tell us?  :3  I'm curious why you are resorting to WIFOM (I think of a few = I admit it, so I'm not scum!). Also, bard, your "counters" only countered parts of my case against you. 

My most important arguements were in my case were:
A) why you were so insistant to attack UK's meta, defending your attack as serious intended to explore something  "interesting" when
1) there was more on the table (a.k.a "Dan is town") and
2) UK flatly said she wouldn't do that. She was prodded twice, why prod her again on the same thing. Are you really adding anything to the discussion, besides throwing a vote down?
B)fence sitting on Shadow, HW, and HH

Also why the weak vote on Shadow later?

[Hanged Hourai]

Alllllllllllllllrighty then. Mafia calls. Too much time marathoning homestuck, orz

Formost and first,
##Unvote
I wanted more content and to know where you stand, which was a purpose of my vote. The content of D1 was a little lacking in my opinion, so you're recent stuff makes you better in that area. Associations with Dormio were something I was just suspicious of and a supporting reason for my vote, though your latest post just handwaves it a bit.

Polaris-
Your case on me is my courteousness (and yes, that's exactly what it is) and picking him out as my second scumpick while he only had one vote on him on D1. He was nowhere near becoming a wagon, and he was the second person I said I wanted dead.
I was not trying to further his opinions, I wanted him to explain them more because I did not agree with them.

And if you want to base a case off Dormio's interactions with people, let's look at you. Your first post metioning him says he's "lackluster," but you see no need to press him on anything or ask any questions.

In your next post, you say you did not pressure because there was nothing to pressure, but you wanted to ask for more opinions from him, which you did not do because you said it would make you look like a hypocrite. So basically, no pressure because you did not want to look bad, and you also ended up having him not do anything.

And then it was only when Dormio became a wagon with 3 votes that you say he was your second scumpick. Note: before this, you only said one other person was scummy.

##Vote: Polaris
Not an OMGUS.
Your associations with Dormio are way worse than mine.

I'm going to get this out here since I'm approaching the limit. Other peoples to come laters.

[ActionDan]

My reasons for voting ActionDan was "respond to counters", which he only does just up above. I am perfectly fine with lynching someone if they push a mediocre case but refuse to explain why it isn't mediocre in light of rebuttals to raised points.

Then why aren't you voting Sect now?  Sect was countered on like every point, especially on me, but refuses to continue to justify her vote.  Instead Sect waffles on Polaris, "backing off of him".  So Sect while convienently parking an audacious vote on me, who's next now?

Since HH and Bard are attacking each other (in Bard's case incredibly belatedly, since after Sect, HH is the obvious choice, the fact that Bard didn't even look at HH until now is just plain bad), the likelihood that Sect is a scumbuddy increases in my eyes.

What happened to NeoSerela again?? /joke
-cut by HH reading

[WHMZakeri]

Sect: I know you made that post in frustration. But I can't in good conscious let that go. You stated that having a member of the mafia being lynched is just as bad as if you lost. This suggests that you knew Dormio is on your team. This suggests that you believe you will lose if Dormio is lynched. This suggests that you knew Dormio's alignment in the first place.

I could overlook this, but paired with your insistence to watch over the competing wagon from yesterday,  I can't see any town intent to counteract what scum intent I see in your posts. The first 150 Posts you and Dormio both consider Shadoweh top voting priority (You even went as far as using her vote against you as a major point of your own personal case). In post 158, you claim that Shadoweh, UK, and Huhwhat were your top three suspects, and then went on a sudden tirade against Action Dan.

The more I look at the ActionDan Wagon, the worse I feel about it. I don't understand where Bardiche's case on him comes from (And I wasn't a fan of his Kiro case, even before Omba's claim).  Polaris's claim in Post 182 that Dan is "disconnected from the game in that he responds to people making cases on him." Sounds like mudslinging, considering it came at the time where people agreed to make random, half-asses Cases against Dan that he had to respond to. Sect is still the worst offender, but it's bothersome to consider that there may be more scum in this game than there are Mafiosi.

Sarcasm Warning - Ahead: I completely understand UK's reservations against the Sect wagon, what with a third of the people wanting to vote him. I mean after all, you have to be very careful of those tricky informed Majorities.
Seriously? We have eleven people left, only two of which are Mafia. If Sect is one mafia, then that leaves only one non-sect Mafia left. This means that at most, you will have only one non-sect person that would advocate not lynching Sect in the event that he looks like scum. That's not even considering the fact that since Sect is so bad, the other mafioso wouldn't want to do anything to further link themselves to him. I see no reason to let up just because there's no opposing voice from the faceless crowds.

##Vote: Sect

[UncertainJakutten]

@Zak: That's actually a very salient point. I'm not as reserved on Sect now. I'm...kind of not used to scum being dead by D2 :V.

I'm still voting him, I believe, though. I didn't unvote since I wasn't fully convinced that cleared him, and you've shown me why.

[ActionDan]

Well... I just read Kiro ad Dormio's Day 1 posts.

So.. There is a strong link between Sect and Dormio (in case this wasn't obvious before the hammer).

Basically if you read all of Dormio's posts, the only real reason that Dormio votes Shadow is for "buddying" up to Sect.  Then after Shadow votes Sect, Dormio continues to push Shadow for voting Sect and then unvoting Sect later. It reads all funny.  I got the impression that Dormio only let up because he wasn't sure how much more he could mention Sect's name and get away with it XD.

I found myself asking why the scum team would want Kiro gone.  It's true he looks town for pushing the Dormio wagon, but Kiro D1 has interesting things to say.  Kiro voted Shadow for implying that UK vs HW was scum fighting town.  Bard later picks up the exact same reasoning to vote Shadow for "tunneling." However, Kiro later clears Shadow.  Besides me, Kiro is the only other person besides me to ever question Bard (read: raise eyebrows).   

Kiro also felt like one of the only people to defend HW.  (Dormio was waffley).  It feels like Bard/Sect scum team had more to gain by a Kiro kill.

ANYWAY I encourage everyone to read over only Dormio and Kiro D1.  It really is a good read!  I think bard's reasoning behind voting Kiro recently (before he was confirmed town) looks really bad in view of this.

Still voting Sect though. I'd link to all the posts, but I'm lazy Zzz. 

[GMOFucker: Makin' GMOs To Fuck 'Em]

... Orrrrr scum just wanted Kiro gone because everybody was passing him off as obvtown on D1. <___< Really now.

[Edible]

Your Votecount is not in another castle; in fact, it is right here

Action Dan (1) - Sect
Hanged Hourai (3) - Kiro, Polaris, Bardiche
Sect (4) - huh what, Action Dan, UncertainKitten, Zakeri
Bardiche (1) - Omba
UncertainKitten (1) - Shadoweh
Polaris (1) - Hanged Hourai

Sect is at L-2!

~41 hours remain.  11 alive takes 6 to lynch.

[Shadoweh]

Words. ;-;

I thought Bard's case on Kiro was making fun of my case on UK. To answer HW and UK, UK's one line answer felt like she was stonewalling me. It was the same feeling I got last game so I took the time to read her now instead of after dying. I don't think it's a waste of time to point out someone who should be considered suspicious when they're getting clears, or to point out a town action being disregarded . Zak also summed up why her sudden reservations against lynching Sect made me suspicious. I admit my suspicions are lessened on UK and my clear void on huh what after Edible's clarification, but the rule on it's own wasn't clear. I thought it meant he would kill/lynch a random player, not end the game.

Alot of people are making cases based on Sect being a scumbuddy already. I don't think this is going to stop until either we get the part where we lynch Sect out of the way or the cop checks him and claims. Or, you know, everyone keeps their cases only involving the scum that's actually flipped. I personally don't want the cop to claim when there's still a scum out there on Day 2. Until the actual flip cases should not discount the chance of Sect being PX's alt.
That being said I've decided his insane war against a pretty damn obvtown player he doesn't like could have a really simple answer. Scum have an easier time justifying voting people they don't like playing with then making up towniness/scumminess excuses.

Zak: Can you explain why Scum Sect would say anything at all when he declared his undying love for Dormio, instead of staying quiet if he wasn't going to switch wagons? It's pretty much the only part of their love affair I don't understand from the perspective of him being scum.

Bard: Your Kiro case, now that I'm looking at it seriously, seems like it's coming from outer space. I could make a crazy theory for why you would attack Kiro but I think it's more likely it was an accident and the Omba trainwreck happened on it's own. I'm getting the same feelings from you today that made me pronounce my own undying support for our eternal pairing and will not try to murder you on Day 2 for once.

Will work for words.

[UncertainJakutten]

@Shadoweh: Except much of the discussion acted as if the game was ending if there wasn't a lynch. If HW were quickly browsing to see what he can get away with, that would stick out. Not to mention he could have potentially asked in a scum QT.

So, why are you still voting me again?

[ActionDan]

... Orrrrr scum just wanted Kiro gone because everybody was passing him off as obvtown on D1. <___< Really now.

Bard says Neigh!  But if scum really wanted to lynch ObvTown, they could have gone for me. Btw It kind of makes me feel weird that Sect had an entire case last night devoted to me, prepared, when I could have potentially been the NK. hmmm.

[UncertainJakutten]

@Dan: There was no way in hell you were getting NK'd. While you come out townier for the dual wagons, first, you aren't confirmed town. second, you aren't really that good and effective. This might be breaking news to you, but sometimes, OCCASIONALLY, scum leave "confirmed townies" alive because they aren't a threat to the scum team at all

I'll be honest, if I were scum, I'd have killed Kiro. If I were the doctor, I'd have protected Kiro. I more or less guessed that Kiro or myself were the NK options after D1. You weren't even a consideration in my calculations of what to expect when day broke.

Please. Try to make at least *one case* that assumes you aren't confirmed town, or at all a threat to scum. Try to make a case like that.

[Shadoweh]

UK: Because I needed more words for an actual case <3 I'm even writing it right now.

I just wanted to add a point for bluntness to Dan. If you were as townie as you think you are you would never have been a wagon in the first place. Think about that.

[ActionDan]

Warning! PR speculation Incoming!.  To be honest, I thought Kiro was the detective. Omba was my 3rd choice for a PR. don't worry not saying who my 2nd is .  Ya I kind of figured my arguements are just getting overlooked/dismissed, which I'm quite sad about.  I still think objectively that I should be 1st or 2nd on the town scale.  But realistically I thought I wouldn't be targeted.. sigh..  

At this point I can arrange the town to scum scale:

cut--     

Should I even bother with this list? Eh. whatever:

Kiro
Omba
me
UK
Shadow
Polaris
HW
HH
Bard
Sect

[ActionDan]

Actually Shadow, I meant after Dormio's flip, Day 1 wagon is just people attacking a "derp"

[UncertainJakutten]

@Dan: ...

*HEAD
MOTHERFUCKING
DESK*

WHY. WOULD. YOU. EVEN. FUCKING. SAY. THAT!

[Sect]

... Oh for the love of god some one lynch me now.

[GMOFucker: Makin' GMOs To Fuck 'Em]

Dan is obviously the actual cop trolling us all.

Seriously though, can you cut it with the PR speculation? <_< It comes off like you're scum trying to communicate with your buddies.