Author Topic: You Only Live Once  (Read 9546 times)

Garlyle

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You Only Live Once
« on: December 09, 2010, 06:33:50 PM »
In all the hubbub about another newgrounds flash game about the permanence of choice, whose original intended message was caught up in a disagreement about the impact of concept and thought-provocation on a game's quality and if it was enough to forgive a game's quality (As well as a live analysis of people's emotional reactions to material being challenged), which is not the subject of this topic anymore...

...there was another game brought up that really deserves attention.

You Only Live Once

For at least the first page, please be polite to others and spoil your reactions.  Despite what you might be expecting knowing what came before this, this game still manages its own little slew of surprises, and really does go about things in a way that, personally, I thought was much more interesting and entertaining, and deserving of its own. 
Spoiler:
It uses the fact that it is an archetypal video game as part of the message - it literally would not work as another medium to bring to light some of the thoughts it is meant to provoke
Spoiler:
Also, I have to admit, I think that you could also appreciate this game as a parody and comedy, and choose not to think about what it might mean that you just lead someone to their death, and it still provides some level of entertainment in that

EDIT: In advance, "Hey, guys, don't get too wrapped up in this one".  But this one's more lighthearted overall, so I don't think there should be any issue regardless of what you take away from it; just don't devalue the other guy's opinion this time.
« Last Edit: December 09, 2010, 06:38:50 PM by Garlyle »

Tengukami

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Re: You Only Live Once
« Reply #1 on: December 09, 2010, 06:36:41 PM »
I don't like having to say "Hey, mods, don't lock this", but I think I have to.

I locked my own thread by my own choice, for reasons that should be obvious. It wasn't a mod decision. Here's hoping we can all learn from the ugliness and not repeat it here.

Anyway, thanks for starting this. Looks like this might be a decent game.

"Human history and growth are both linked closely to strife. Without conflict, humanity would have no impetus for growth. When humans are satisfied with their present condition, they may as well give up on life."

Fightest

  • Fighter than anyone else
Re: You Only Live Once
« Reply #2 on: December 09, 2010, 07:54:48 PM »
I locked my own thread by my own choice, for reasons that should be obvious. It wasn't a mod decision. Here's hoping we can all learn from the ugliness and not repeat it here.

I didn't get the chance before the lock in the other thread, so I'll apologise here for going overboard there. Sorry, everyone.

Tengukami

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Re: You Only Live Once
« Reply #3 on: December 09, 2010, 08:02:51 PM »
This was pretty hilarious. I can honestly say I've never seen a game quite like this. I like what it does insofar as breaking down the fourth wall is concerned, in a non-traditional sense, and by that I mean
Spoiler:
not necessarily that the game characters talk to you, but that "video game world" and "real world" lose their boundaries, where a character who dies in a generic rescue-adventure game is treated like an actual murder victim by authorities and the media.
Loved it. And yeah, if you wanted to get philomosophical about it, I guess it does underline the incongruity between video game world and real world.

I decided to go with Japanese vocals with English subtitles, if it matters.
« Last Edit: December 09, 2010, 08:05:54 PM by Amaterasu »

"Human history and growth are both linked closely to strife. Without conflict, humanity would have no impetus for growth. When humans are satisfied with their present condition, they may as well give up on life."

KomeijiKoishi

Re: You Only Live Once
« Reply #4 on: December 09, 2010, 09:26:39 PM »
What makes me wonder is
Spoiler:
is there something else beyond the gap with the flying thing or is that point basically the dead end?

Also,
Spoiler:
lol@giantpinklizard

Fightest

  • Fighter than anyone else
Re: You Only Live Once
« Reply #5 on: December 09, 2010, 10:54:41 PM »
Played the game, find it pretty cute. Bit of a toe-dip into the pool of deconstructionism with a good deal of self-aware humour. Controls are a bit, uh, floaty and somewhat unpredictable, but serve their function to an acceptable degree.

Krimmydoodle

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Re: You Only Live Once
« Reply #6 on: December 09, 2010, 10:59:36 PM »
Spoiler:
For us mere mortals who couldn't beat the game, yes it's possible to "beat" it, and there's a vid running the whole stage and its ending at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FFHW2XzzFUc for those who are too lazy to search for it.
Whether you're on Easy or you're a Lunatic, be damn proud of your accomplishments.  Don't let anyone convince you otherwise, for it's when you lose faith in your own achievements that those victories become defeats.

hyorinryu

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Re: You Only Live Once
« Reply #7 on: December 10, 2010, 01:04:19 AM »
Spoiler:
I don't really like "you can play once sort of thing," especially when you die jumping that first chasm and the author puts that much effort into the endings. It doesn't feel like you played at all.

*currently under repair*
Puzzle Dragon stuff

Ghaleon

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Re: You Only Live Once
« Reply #8 on: December 10, 2010, 02:35:40 AM »
I'm not a big platformer fan so meh. But as I already said in the other thread I don't think one game only is a very good idea. Especially given that there is a reasonable chance that one dies because of RL issues, or a power outage or whatever. But even if they die legitimately, playing once only means that the player can't really experience the game, and it's not really cool to disable something supposedly free for someone just because they had an off day or whatever.

However only being able to play once certainly adds an element of suspense to a game.
Maybe if games made it so you could only play once per week or month or something...

Stuffman

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Re: You Only Live Once
« Reply #9 on: December 10, 2010, 09:54:38 AM »
Since I didn't get to elaborate on something I said in the last thread:

When I said only getting one chance to play through a game with multiple paths was an interesting premise, I didn't mean that it was a good idea to apply it to a regular game (i.e. one that you have to pay for) as several people implied I was suggesting. I just meant it could be used in a similar manner as in [TITLE REDACTED TO PROTECT THE INNOCENT], just in something longer and with more content.

The idea would be to give everyone who plays it a unique experience to share. I think nowadays there's a complete obsession with optimal play, what with every freaking game having a wiki and tier list dedicated to it, and it winds up with everybody playing the game the exact same way, which is boring as fuck. I think it would be nice to look into design concepts that personalize a person's experience with a game, and this is one that could work well in a short piece like a flash game.

That's not quite what happened here, since there's only two possible outcomes, but it was pretty funny regardless :V

PAUL GET IN HERE

Ghaleon

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Re: You Only Live Once
« Reply #10 on: December 10, 2010, 10:11:12 AM »
I agree with stuff when it comes to optimized play being boring and whatnot. I mean nowadays games are nearly designed to be played by some guy using a strategy guide, gamefaqs article, wiki, or whatever. I remember back in the days when Final Fantasy 2/4 was new and the SNES was high tech, I played it to death. There was no faq, I didn't have the strategy guide, none of that. Eventually I got a dragon whip for rydia, and an artemis BOW.. Yeah, when people saw it they were like HOLY SHIT, and really, it kinda felt like getting a legendary in WoW or something, it was something else.

Now it's virtually impossible to have something small in a game that creates such interest or wow factor because everyone knows everything, and a great deal of the gamer population is obsessed with getting a 100% save file, and every achievement. Gone are the days when you play Zelda, a link to the past, and your friend is like "dude, htf do you have 16 hearts?!".

Personally I try to enjoy modern games the same way by not using a faq or wiki (Except for technical details for stuff like spelldamage, attack formulas, etc, I've always liked that stuff), but sometimes it bites you in the ass. As for having a unique experience for each game. Way back in the day when you played an RPG or dungeon crawl, you often could set the random seed prior to starting the game, which would dictate the layout of the dungeon/world.  IMO this was a really cool feature that shouldn't have been taken away because sometimes you found one that you really liked or found challenging, and you could tell your friends "play it on seed # 5287 bish". Randomized games probably randomize on a per-level/room basis, but I think it should still offer the option of setting seeds.

Fightest

  • Fighter than anyone else
Re: You Only Live Once
« Reply #11 on: December 10, 2010, 10:32:30 AM »
I... daresay that the above approaches gross exaggeration. Not only are completionist gamers in their own (not all that large) niche in the gamer population, just as there are immersionist and explorative gamers as well, but, with modern design approaches and funding, we get games that can genuinely deliver a personalised gaming experience without having to resort to random numbers, in that manner vastly surpassing many older games in that regard. I am talking about the likes of New Vegas, Mass Effect and Alpha Protocol, which genuinely have varying content based on a player's input, and plenty of different, mutually-exclusive end-game outcomes that tie such input together into a widely-varied experience. Sure, they can be replayed multiple times for the 100% completion, but I am confident in the statement that most gamers will go through once, maybe twice if they're particularly curious about something.

Heck, even seemingly-mindless action games have this, like in Prototype, where I can safely say that there are at least five different varying gameplay experiences that surface entirely based on player preference. Sure, the wiki and/or walkthrough will tell you that this power is great for this and that power is great for that, but by ultimately making all options be equally-accessible and similarly-powerful, a typical player won't really care that you can elbow-drop a tank from a skyscraper, and will instead hijack it and go on a spree because that's what he likes.

Ghaleon

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Re: You Only Live Once
« Reply #12 on: December 10, 2010, 08:39:35 PM »
I don't know Alpha Protocol, but despite being a Sega game, I'm going to assume it feels like the other two FPWRPGs you mentioned. Admittably WRPGs are not really a great example of what I'm bitching about, but I don't really think I'm exagerrating with the majority of other games. Or maybe you're just too young to know how people used to play games? I d on't know your age. Back when I was a kid, you accomplished something simply when you won in a game, you bragged about it to everyone, and you might play it again for the fun of it later on. But nobody, hardly ANYBODY ever said "zomg I need to get 20/20 hearts, 4/4 energy tanks, 100/100 relics, etc afterwards. Nobody really cared, the point was beating the game, not getting 100%.

Nowadays, I almost always see people talk about getting 100% in their games, and because they do, they often have guides open just so they don't miss items or special things that get lost forever in points of no return.

Fightest

  • Fighter than anyone else
Re: You Only Live Once
« Reply #13 on: December 10, 2010, 10:16:48 PM »
I don't know Alpha Protocol, but despite being a Sega game

Obsidian. Same people who made PS:T and NWN2.

Quote
Nowadays, I almost always see people talk about getting 100% in their games, and because they do, they often have guides open just so they don't miss items or special things that get lost forever in points of no return.

I reckon we're just in different gaming circles, then. I'll assure you that there are plenty of non-ocd-completionist gamers as well!

Re: You Only Live Once
« Reply #14 on: December 10, 2010, 10:34:08 PM »
As Fightest said, those 100% completionists are a niche of gaming, and not everyone is in the mindset that they have to do it. Creating a game like you guys are attempting to suggest would do nothing other than insult the kind of people who want to strive for 100%ing the game. Not to mention, that having it shut down after the end would be jarring to people who were curious about what other things would have happened. Discussion of the game would be limited to "I got the ending where everyone dies." "I got the ending where everyone lives." "I got the ending where my girlfriend kisses me." and so on.

There is absolutely no reason why you would choose to lock a player out of content for a game you made, unless the whole point of the work was to express to the player the finality of choice. And even then, we still have people like Edible who advocate the use of Cashe clearing to trick the game into restarting. Your argument for using this style of gameplay to discourage people from achieving 100% completion, basicially sounds to me like you just want to be able to punch a group of people in the crotch just because you don't like the way they choose to play their games.

Cut:
Quote
I reckon we're just in different gaming circles, then. I'll assure you that there are plenty of non-ocd-completionist gamers as well!

Yes, you find those sort of people often in JRPGs. But then again, the focus of JRPGS often is getting through the game with as much stuff as possible. I'll admit I ended up using guides to complete all of the social links in the Persona games, but damn it if feel REAL good when I got everything maxed by the end dungeon. That said, that's the experience I relate to most when you bring up the idea of 100% completion, and blocking content once you've finished the game. I know Stuffman said you weren't planning on putting that in this sort of game, but you are still trying to make a point of preventing that sort of thing, which I disagree with.

Also, this is the second time I died by walking off the side of the cliff when the circle of platforms appears. I never realize until I'm halfway over the edge that I need to stop moving right when the screen shifts.

Tengukami

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Re: You Only Live Once
« Reply #15 on: December 11, 2010, 12:19:04 AM »
As Fightest said, those 100% completionists are a niche of gaming, and not everyone is in the mindset that they have to do it. Creating a game like you guys are attempting to suggest would do nothing other than insult the kind of people who want to strive for 100%ing the game.

This statement confuses me. If you're that type of gamer, wouldn't you just ... play a different game? Why would it be "insulting"? I dislike FPSs, but they don't "insult" me. I just don't play them.

"Human history and growth are both linked closely to strife. Without conflict, humanity would have no impetus for growth. When humans are satisfied with their present condition, they may as well give up on life."

Fightest

  • Fighter than anyone else
Re: You Only Live Once
« Reply #16 on: December 11, 2010, 12:42:38 AM »
This statement confuses me. If you're that type of gamer, wouldn't you just ... play a different game? Why would it be "insulting"? I dislike FPSs, but they don't "insult" me. I just don't play them.

I don't know how general I'm being with this answer, but most games that go one-playthrough-only don't actually tell you explicitly that you only have one playthrough. "You Only Live Once" may strongly hint at this even by its title alone, but, again, it's not explicit, so it's entirely open to misinterpretation, so a person might not realise that it's a game they would choose to not play. That other game didn't outright state that, either.

It's this suddenness factor that probably would set a few people off - imagine if you didn't know you had only one go, you mess about since that's what you feel like, and you die. And you don't get to play the game again. I'd imagine more than one person would feel cheated and punished for nothing in particular.

Tengukami

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Re: You Only Live Once
« Reply #17 on: December 11, 2010, 12:48:37 AM »
Because people don't read game reviews?

Sorry, maybe I don't take gaming seriously enough to feel "insulted" by one.

"Human history and growth are both linked closely to strife. Without conflict, humanity would have no impetus for growth. When humans are satisfied with their present condition, they may as well give up on life."

Fightest

  • Fighter than anyone else
Re: You Only Live Once
« Reply #18 on: December 11, 2010, 01:24:04 AM »
Sorry, maybe I don't take gaming seriously enough to feel "insulted" by one.

I wouldn't use that word either, but it certainly frustrating.

Re: You Only Live Once
« Reply #19 on: December 11, 2010, 03:17:29 AM »
I'll admit, someone who get's insults because a game is built a certain way deserves no sympathy, but that still doesn't excuse building a game for the purpose of causing that feeling of insult.

Fightest

  • Fighter than anyone else
Re: You Only Live Once
« Reply #20 on: December 11, 2010, 11:19:56 AM »
I'll admit, someone who get's insults because a game is built a certain way deserves no sympathy, but that still doesn't excuse building a game for the purpose of causing that feeling of insult.

All a game has to do to avoid that is to be explicit with what it's going to do. It might break immersion, but a disclaimer that "you will ever only get one playthrough of this game" at the beginning will do well to solve many issues.

As a recent example, NIER also does a ...thing that would be a kick in the balls to completionists if the player chooses to do a certain... thing during the ending sequence. However, it just flat-out warns the player that this is going to happen, and then the player has to confirm that he's going through with this at least five times. Literally.

Serela

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Re: You Only Live Once
« Reply #21 on: December 16, 2010, 08:36:49 PM »
edit: 5 days late herp derp

Just gonna say that the player comments include how to use the secret built-in restart button :P
Spoiler:
At the starting screen with the Green Arrow to click to start the game, click somewhere in the lower black area, and then use Tab to select the green arrow, and Enter to hit it. This allows you to then quickly click on a red dot (The restart button!) that was hidden under the Turnip Man advertisement, and if you've viewed the entire ending already, the game will start at the beginning

It IS a bit of a hassle though (Considering you have to watch all of the ending sequence each time before it will work, apparently), so if you want to play it more then once I'd recommend using Chrome/IE/Firefox's private browsing feature, which should make it so just refreshing the page will restart the game completely.
Spoiler:
There's only really 2 significantly different endings though, depending on whether you win or lose, with a minor exception of losing at the boss room being a little different then losing before it.

Anyway, I enjoyed the game and it's unique point of view, and not really in a mood to elaborate; mostly posted because I noticed people raging over lack of restart, and no one seeming to have read on the game's comments that there IS a restart (Albeit an inconvenient one).



<mauvecow> see this is how evil works in reality, it just wears you down with bureaucracy until you don't care anymore

Paul Debrion

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Re: You Only Live Once
« Reply #22 on: December 18, 2010, 01:37:37 AM »
Since I didn't get to elaborate on something I said in the last thread:

When I said only getting one chance to play through a game with multiple paths was an interesting premise, I didn't mean that it was a good idea to apply it to a regular game (i.e. one that you have to pay for) as several people implied I was suggesting. I just meant it could be used in a similar manner as in [TITLE REDACTED TO PROTECT THE INNOCENT], just in something longer and with more content.

The idea would be to give everyone who plays it a unique experience to share. I think nowadays there's a complete obsession with optimal play, what with every freaking game having a wiki and tier list dedicated to it, and it winds up with everybody playing the game the exact same way, which is boring as fuck. I think it would be nice to look into design concepts that personalize a person's experience with a game, and this is one that could work well in a short piece like a flash game.

That's not quite what happened here, since there's only two possible outcomes, but it was pretty funny regardless :V

PAUL GET IN HERE

There is a quite a bit to be said about having a consequence for failure. Many decisions video games try to present you with often don't carry as much weight as they could because they isn't much of a consequence involved. Half the reason a game like Uplink is any fun at all is because there is a relatively strong consequence for failure, at least when compared to other games.

Using this to create a more personalized gaming experience would make for an interesting game. Sure, not everyone likes the idea of not being able to see everything there is to see in a game, but it is certainly something that I would like to see more of.
You wouldn't necessarily have to be as harsh as only allowing a single playthough of course, something like automatically deleting one's saved game would be more than enough for most given a sufficiently long game, as games like Uplink and Steel Battalion have demonstrated.


Way back in the day when you played an RPG or dungeon crawl, you often could set the random seed prior to starting the game, which would dictate the layout of the dungeon/world.  IMO this was a really cool feature that shouldn't have been taken away because sometimes you found one that you really liked or found challenging, and you could tell your friends "play it on seed # 5287 bish". Randomized games probably randomize on a per-level/room basis, but I think it should still offer the option of setting seeds.

I really like this sort of thing and there are games that continue to apply similar methods to other genres, such as AI War: Fleet Command with it's way of generating maps from number seeds.

On the other hand, I believe that such methods of procedural generation are only a starting point, as they are still very random and tend to create a sense of monotony.
Many gamers and developers alike often confuse "procedural" with "random". However, the point of procedurally generating content is to do better than just being "random". In many ways it's about getting a balance between getting what you want while allowing room for unexpected possibilities, overcoming the limitations of doing everything manually.
There is a lot of room to improve in creating methods of procedurally generating content that are more have more complex rules and create more varied and interesting results, and that involves going much farther than putting in a number and getting a level.

I think that the area where game development has a lot of room to improve is in creating games that are focused more on systems rather than scripting, in doing things algorithmically rather than relying on the developer to anticipate every possible thing that might happen.

Right now, game developers are really good at creating games that are either very scripted or very random. Most video games made today reflect this, as they are usually either very linear story-based games or very open and random sandboxes.
It's the ground between the two that is currently very difficult, as it means finding a compromise between getting what you want while allowing for the unexpected. This means that the game has to not only respond to a large number of situations, but do so in a way that is more meaningful and relevant than simply being random. It means that the game cannot simply go to the developer for instructions for that specific situation. This sort of thing can be scary for any programmer.

To use an example I've used before, it's like letting your child out into the world and hoping you've taught it enough to fend for itself. It's not impossible, but very difficult and rather scary to attempt.


I... daresay that the above approaches gross exaggeration. Not only are completionist gamers in their own (not all that large) niche in the gamer population, just as there are immersionist and explorative gamers as well, but, with modern design approaches and funding, we get games that can genuinely deliver a personalised gaming experience without having to resort to random numbers, in that manner vastly surpassing many older games in that regard. I am talking about the likes of New Vegas, Mass Effect and Alpha Protocol, which genuinely have varying content based on a player's input, and plenty of different, mutually-exclusive end-game outcomes that tie such input together into a widely-varied experience.

I don't think that games like New Vegas, Mass Effect, or Alpha Protocol really offer that much in the way of a widely varied experience, at least not to an extent that hasn't already been done before. More to the point, I strongly disagree that "modern design approaches and funding" have helped games deliver a personalized gaming experience. If anything I believe they've made things worse in making many assets more expensive and less disposable.

Of course, this goes into a lot of things I believe that plenty of people disagree with.  :V
I'll come up with an evil scheme later. First, it's time to build a giant robot!

You can't have a good evil scheme without a giant robot!

Fightest

  • Fighter than anyone else
Re: You Only Live Once
« Reply #23 on: December 19, 2010, 10:43:55 AM »
I don't think that games like New Vegas, Mass Effect, or Alpha Protocol really offer that much in the way of a widely varied experience, at least not to an extent that hasn't already been done before. More to the point, I strongly disagree that "modern design approaches and funding" have helped games deliver a personalized gaming experience. If anything I believe they've made things worse in making many assets more expensive and less disposable.

You're gonna have to argue it better than that. You can't just say "no they aren't" and expect that to hold.

On another note, just using the Fallout series as an example and your mention of the consequences of failure as the background, a large part of the game revolves on whether you succeed in the sidequests to change peoples' lives or not, and the entire ending montage goes into the detail of just how you affected the people around you, with plenty of option for variance due to the very large amount of scripted events. It's nothing new.

Right now, game developers are really good at creating games that are either very scripted or very random. Most video games made today reflect this, as they are usually either very linear story-based games or very open and random sandboxes.

Oblivion. In fact, any given Elder Scrolls game. Strong scripted story missions and sidequests, sandbox world. Again, Fallout. Red Dead Redemption. You're being very [citation needed] here.

Paul Debrion

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Re: You Only Live Once
« Reply #24 on: December 19, 2010, 01:04:17 PM »
You're gonna have to argue it better than that. You can't just say "no they aren't" and expect that to hold.

I'm not trying to argue that it's "truth". I'm simply presenting a different opinion on something that is rather relative in the first place, hence "this goes into a lot of stuff I believe that a lot of people disagree with". I'm providing a counter-example (myself) to the idea that everyone would be satisfied with the "widely varied experience" provided by said games.

As to why I believe that "modern design approaches to funding" make things worse, I would rather save that discussion for another thread, since it seems like it would really stretch the topic and I can't go into as much detail as I would want to right now because I'm on vacation in real-life.

Oblivion. In fact, any given Elder Scrolls game. Strong scripted story missions and sidequests, sandbox world. Again, Fallout. Red Dead Redemption. You're being very [citation needed] here.

To me that's just putting a sandbox and scripted missions next to each other, not a real compromise between the two. Despite the fact that story missions and side-quests in these games are presented along with a sandbox environment, they're still scripted missions with limited interactivity and outcomes which are laid out by the developer manually beforehand.

I don't believe this to be the limit of what can be done. I believe that the future of interactivity in video games are missions and tasks for which outcomes emerge from a system rather than being laid out manually by the developer beforehand.

Again, I'm a bit pre-occupied at the moment, so for now you can see my earlier thread regarding interactivity for a bit more detail on my views on this.

I'm probably going to start a new thread to discuss this topic further when I get back.




I'll come up with an evil scheme later. First, it's time to build a giant robot!

You can't have a good evil scheme without a giant robot!

Fightest

  • Fighter than anyone else
Re: You Only Live Once
« Reply #25 on: December 19, 2010, 01:15:48 PM »
I'm not trying to argue that it's "truth". I'm simply presenting a different opinion on something that is rather relative in the first place, hence "this goes into a lot of stuff I believe that a lot of people disagree with". I'm providing a counter-example (myself) to the idea that everyone would be satisfied with the "widely varied experience" provided by said games.

What I'm asking you to argue is the more specific:

Quote
at least not to an extent that hasn't already been done before

And I'm going to emphasise Alpha Protocol here. Give me a good example of a previously-done game doing what AP does.


Quote
To me that's just putting a sandbox and scripted missions next to each other, not a real compromise between the two. Despite the fact that story missions and side-quests in these games are presented along with a sandbox environment, they're still scripted missions with limited interactivity and outcomes which are laid out by the developer manually beforehand.

I don't believe this to be the limit of what can be done. I believe that the future of interactivity in video games are missions and tasks for which outcomes emerge from a system rather than being laid out manually by the developer beforehand.

All right, I'll take that point, but your implied preposition is very ambitious indeed. Furthermore, and I'll be happy to argue this in another topic, I will state with confidence that a game that doesn't have scripting in it will simply not be as exciting as a game with scripting - it is not possible to create well-directed exciting action sequences (or, in fact, any kind of complex sequence of events) through procedure generation, simply because by scripting the writers can ignore a lot of the things that procedure cannot.