Aya's Writing Workshop - Bring us your story ideas and outlines!

[lightdreamer]

*Looks at Achariyth, Iced Fairy, Roukanken, Sakura Rurouni, Yayifications, a host of other writers here on Shrinemaiden*

*Observes how pretty much everyone mentioned above writes better than Dan Brown and Stephanie Meyer*

 :V

So, do you subscribe to the opinion that writing quality is more subjective than objective or not?

Subjectively speaking, they're all the same in my eyes since I'm not interested in their works.

I write.  That alone allows me to claim the title of writer.  I identify with the Human Wave movement, which espouses science fiction that isn't grey goo.  I write science fiction and fantasy, which places me square in the genre camp.  Any of these make me a second class citizen in the current publishing world.  Big talk?  Hardly.  I don't fit the mold traditional New York based publishing wants. 

And before all of that, you're a fanfic writer.  :V

Which is, in my humble opinion, still "lower" than an original story writer since you're using other people's work as the base for your own.

[Fonzi]

And before all of that, you're a fanfic writer.  :V

Which is, in my humble opinion, still "lower" than an original story writer since you're using other people's work as the base for your own.

And from where do you draw such certainty that Achariyth never wrote anything original aside from fanfiction?

[lightdreamer]

And from where do you draw such certainty that Achariyth never wrote anything original aside from fanfiction?

That's why I asked him this.

So, are you actually a published writer or what? You're talking pretty big here.

[Fonzi]

There's still a place called fictionpress.net and the likes of it. You don't have to be a published writer to have a few original works under your belt.

[lightdreamer]

There's still a place called fictionpress.net and the likes of it. You don't have to be a published writer to have a few original works under your belt.

Ah, you're right. I apologize then. My question was wrong.

[Tengukami]

Joveus, I appreciate your efforts to want to keep talking about this thing, but the questions you're asking me have already been answered. Popularity is fluid, "good" and "bad" don't by themselves tell you anything but people usually say more than these words when referring to a story and therefore explain what they mean by them, people who have spent a very long time studying literature can usually - but not always - have greater skill in identifying what's working and what's not in a story, there is no Golden Mean in art, deal with it.

Achariyth is a genre fiction writer and, like many who've chosen this, he likes to consider himself an iconoclast railing against the literary establishment, and that the whole of academia - all those people who have a love of literature so deep they spent years of their lives studying it -  are all, every single one of them, nothing but brainwashed zombies who don't really know what "good" writing is and whose opinions can't be trusted. I don't agree with this, at all, but nor do I think genre fiction is "less serious" than literary fiction.

[Joveus Molai]

Joveus, I appreciate your efforts to want to keep talking about this thing, but the questions you're asking me have already been answered.

I apologize if I'd been beating a dead horse, then--perhaps I kept asking them because I didn't realize they'd been answered.  :blush:

there is no Golden Mean in art, deal with it.

:negative:

So, do you subscribe to the opinion that writing quality is more subjective than objective or not?

It's a weird thing. I want to say that, oh, Twilight is an amazingly crappy  book, and that, say, The First Heretic (a Warhammer 40k licensed work) is far better. Every fiber of my being tells me that. Everything I've ever learned about writing, and the arts in general, tells me that. But logically, I feel that I'm unable to say that.

It's such an instinctual thing for me, labeling the quality of something as "good" or "bad", that a lot of times I do it even though at some level I know I probably shouldn't.

Nowadays, the main way I resolve this potential piece of cognitive dissonance is by telling myself that, without some sort of system for judging quality in place, you're likely to not have anything of quality at all by any definition of the word--nihilism and the arts don't mix very well in that context. Though the rather...utility-based nature of this does make me kind of sad.

Subjectively speaking, they're all the same in my eyes since I'm not interested in their works.

Oof...that's a little harsh. Are there any touhou fanfics at all that interest you? Why don't any here work for you?

[lightdreamer]

Oof...that's a little harsh. Are there any touhou fanfics at all that interest you? Why don't any here work for you?

I suppose it's mostly because their themes don't really interest me. Mind you, I just have a very narrow taste concerning Touhou fics, so it's not necessarily the fics' fault.

Yes, I have a few, but they don't even reach 10 in number. And half of them are fangames with story. So yeah.

[Joveus Molai]

I suppose it's mostly because their themes don't really interest me. Mind you, I just have a very narrow taste concerning Touhou fics, so it's not necessarily the fics' fault.

May I ask what themes do interest you? Maybe one day I could write your 10th favorite Touhou fic :V 

[lightdreamer]

May I ask what themes do interest you? Maybe one day I could write your 10th favorite Touhou fic :V

Well, let's see...
1. Some mysterious force threatens Gensokyo. And they're actually a serious threat.
     Yes, I can see this just creating overpowered bland villain OCs that would be called out as "Villain Sues" by the readers. That's why it must be done well (and I've seen it done well, what with the OCs being one of my favorite Touhou OCs out there). The villains must be entertaining. The plot isn't just "the two groups meet and then they fight", meaning they must have twist and turns in it.

2. Anything involving the relationship between humans and youkai, but presented in a balanced manner
    Haven't seen a real good one for this yet. From the stories I've read that brought this up, it's more "pro-youkai" than anything. The protag has a relationship with a youkai (one of the Touhou characters, of course) and the other humans are scared of that fact. Heck, I know one instance where a human blatantly says that it's okay for her to be eaten by a youkai because she'll gladly sacrifice her life for such "creature of beauty".

3. Anything involving the Lunarians, but portrayed other than their usual villainous potrayal
    You know the drill. "Lunarians invading Earth" fics. And even in stories not about that, it's still like that. I believe there's only one single story where that's not the case. And I had to dig through the Japanese fandom to find that.

[Achariyth]

And before all of that, you're a fanfic writer.  :V

Which is, in my humble opinion, still "lower" than an original story writer since you're using other people's work as the base for your own.

Considering that publishing's looking at the audience fanfic writers can bring when they make the transition, the sting's no longer there.  Oh, and 4 of last year's science fiction bestsellers were in Star Wars and Halo universes.  Do you consider Shakespeare, Goethe, Virgil, Dante and Marlowe to be lesser writers because some of their works are based on others?  (And, by no means I claim anything near their skill or artistry.  Hell, I'm not worthy enough to pull security for them.)

As far as Tengukami (pardon me, but with the name switch, I am uncertain if that's the right handle to call you), I learn(ed) from craftsmen-writers, who have the same love and study of stories as academia, but expressed differently as the demands of a writer (write enough to pay the bills) are different from the professor.  It's the same difference as the scientist (pure) and the engineer (applied).  In the case of literature and genre, the grossly oversimplified breakdown is language and story.  I do recognize that this debate will be settled about the same time that the Catholics and Protestants stop sniping at each other.  (Never.)  I don't recognize that credentials or love or even long years of study convey a more authorative opinion than someone without credentials or formal study.  You can look at the history of science and archaeology for evidence against that. 

But, as this conversation is crashing on the shores of irreconcilable differences, and I doubt any of us will cause a Damascus moment in the others, I'll walk away from the topic so we can continue to get back to Touhou stories. 

Changing tacks. Lightdreamer, have you thought about writing your own stories?  It seems that you have something different to bring to the table and many writers get their start writing because no one was writing the stories they wanted to read.

[lightdreamer]

Considering that publishing's looking at the audience fanfic writers can bring when they make the transition, the sting's no longer there.  Oh, and 4 of last year's science fiction bestsellers were in Star Wars and Halo universes.  Do you consider Shakespeare, Goethe, Virgil, Dante and Marlowe to be lesser writers because some of their works are based on others?  (And, by no means I claim anything near their skill or artistry.  Hell, I'm not worthy enough to pull security for them.)

Well, bestsellers mean nothing in regards to quality, as some people say here.

And about the whole Shakespeare thing? No, not really. They've actually written original fictions, right? You said it yourself that it's only "some", not "all" of their works.

Besides, I doubt they're making "fanfictions" in the way that we're making "fanfictions" nowadays. But that's a discussion for another day.

But, as this conversation is crashing on the shores of irreconcilable differences, and I doubt any of us will cause a Damascus moment in the others, I'll walk away from the topic so we can continue to get back to Touhou stories.

Sure. 

But the mods don't seem to mind though, seeing how some of them are participating in the discussion itself.

Changing tacks. Lightdreamer, have you thought about writing your own stories?  It seems that you have something different to bring to the table and many writers get their start writing because no one was writing the stories they wanted to read.

The problem with that is:
1. I'm a lazy bastard who prefers browsing the internet or playing video games over writing.
2. My technical writing skill is barely passable. Sure, I can write with correct spelling and grammar, but other than that, I give up.
3. I only have the general idea of a story, and I can't expand it into a detailed and coherent plot.
4. I'm a lazy bastard who prefers browsing the internet or playing video games over writing.

[Captain Vulcan]

Evening. The name's Vulcan. It is really nice to meet you guys and gals. I've actually been lurking around here for a while but I decided to become a member at the request of a friend. So I guess it's an honor. I'm looking forward to sharing ideas and having fun with everyone.

[Joveus Molai]

Evening. The name's Vulcan. It is really nice to meet you guys and gals. I've actually been lurking around here for a while but I decided to become a member at the request of a friend. So I guess it's an honor. I'm looking forward to sharing ideas and having fun with everyone.

Welcome to the madhouse, Vulcan!

[Captain Vulcan]

Welcome to the madhouse, Vulcan!

Thanks a lot, Joveus. I should feel right at home.

[capt. h]

Alright, so I'm thinking a Real Life (TM) setting in which characters slowly discover their powers.

I want to avoid making it grimdark though, as I do have a point where I step back and realize that something is too dark for even me to enjoy when I'm writing it, although characters like Utsuho, Flandre, and Yuyuko present certain challenges.

I'm considering introducing one character at a time, and if necessary, how that character, well, ends, should their power or their inherent nature (e.g. cannibalism & Rumia) should result in their utter destruction, death, or arrest. I'm undecided whether it is wise to even include certain characters like Yuyuko though, who could only discover their powers at all by accidentally killing something, which, bluntly, would be fairly difficult to not make grimdark. I would appreciate ideas about how Yuyuko, Flandre, Utsuho, Hina (goddess of misfotune), Remilia, Orin, etc. could be introduced without making the story too dark. Refuge in audacity is an acceptable manner, and even without the advice, the mere act or writing my idea down does bring my story setting one step closer to written word, which is acceptable.

[TwilightsCall]

Just some thoughts, take and leave what you will!

Yuyuko - Remember she also has the ability to manipulate the spirits of the dead, not just kill people.  I don't see this having a very happy ending, but you could always do something like she pushes herself to get the 'instant kill' power in order to save someone/thing/place.

Flandre - She doesn't have to break people, she can break things too.  And even if she uses her power on people, it doesn't necessarily have to kill them.  Maybe in a fit of rage/panic/by accident she crushes someone's arm or leg or something.  That would still be a pretty powerful experience to someone, especially if you are writing them to be as young as Flandre (visibly) is.

Utsuho - Blowing things up doesn't have to be violent.  In her case, it probably will be, but if you are creative you should be able to do something good with it.  I find it hard to imagine the kind of things Utsuho could do with her powers that wont get people killed though...fission and fusion have a pretty narrow range of applications, and they all seem to be on the 'way too strong' end of the spectrum.  This is probably the one I would find most difficult to adapt into your story unless you were willing to play around with her powers a bit, and make her slowly work her way up to Nuclear-level phenomena.

Hina- She's a goddess of Misfortune, but that's because she takes people's misfortune away!  She's almost perfect for a more lighter toned story, because her power is based on making the people around her happy.  If you don't mind playing with canon a little bit, you could write quite the tragic heroine story about her taking people's misfortunes onto herself (canonically, the misfortune doesn't affect her either, but that's the great part about fiction :P)

Remilia - This one will likely end in a much sadder tone.  Assuming you don't push the vampire angle and you just focus on her ability to manipulate fate, you could write a very compelling Icarus-styled story for her.  She figures out her power and decides to put it to good use, but gets in over her head and things just don't turn out the way they were supposed to.  Alternatively, you could write a more Haruhi-esque story, where she has no idea about her powers and the focus is on the people around her dealing with her unconscious manipulations of fate.  This has more potential for a more light hearted story, but with some creative writing both could go either way.

Orin - If you want to stay away from the grim, darker parts then avoid her passion for dead bodies completely.  Similarly to Yuyuko, she can control and communicate with the deceased - your imagination can take you pretty far writing a story like this.  And remember they don't have to be the recently deceased, nor do they have to be angry, vengeful ghosts.  Maybe she makes it her life mission to help the lingering dead pass on peacefully? Only you can tell us!

I tried to avoid going into too much detail, because its more fun if you come up with the core plot points on your own, so I hope these brief blurbs are enough to give you some ideas!

[Chronopolis]

Hello, nice to meet you all, I'm Chrono. It's been fun reading all your guy's ideas.

Hey there everyone. I've been writing fanfics for quite some time. I've decided that I want to write an official touhou fanbook .
Much in the way that Perfect Memento covers the characters themselves and Grimoire of Marisa Covered the spell cards, I want to write something that covers the items and treasures used by the girls. I've committed a lot of research into the subject. I'd like for you guys to take a look at the list. feel free to scrutinize it as hard as possible. I'd like for it to be as accurate as it can be. once the list is finalized, I'll start writing the book
Also, if anyone is simply curious about my new endeavor, feel free to ask whatever you want.

There was one fanbook that was in the same vein.  Beside the art being squee-worthy, I personally find the topic of accessories fascinating.
https://www.facebook.com/notes/touhou-photography-project/touhou-gensou-gahou-4-%E6%9D%B1%E6%96%B9%E5%B9%BB%E6%83%B3%E7%94%BB%E5%A0%B14-review/363965883692109

[ToyoRai]

Oh boy, I have so many ideas in my head what I wish I could draw or white full stories of. Here are few of them (tell me if I am doing this wrong) :
-Green Dragon's Scarlet Road
 -A story centering around Meiling before she started working in Scarlet Devil Mansion.

Spoiler:

Originally she was a guard for a royal family in China. General focus of it is to make Meiling not the lazy gate guard fandom knowns her as. She is actually good at her job, but not enough to stop the eventual demise of the roal family she had to guard. She would eventually face Sakuya, who is already serving Remilia, to project any inch of worth she has. She would eventually lose to Sakuya, but before her noticing how good she is, making Sakuya take her back to SDM and recuiting her as gate guard.

-Putting out the flames
 -Story focusing on events leading to the abandoning of Former Hell. As in, why the new Hell was formed and people's reaction to it and the fact they should move to it. Currently nothing major to report on story procress.

-Mystery of Alice's Grimoire:
 -Marisa has always wondered what Alice's Grimoire contains, having not seen her open it before (In story, she didn't fight her in Mystic Square's Extra Stage). Due of them being such a good friends, she doesn't want to just break into her house and take it by force, so she decides to do it some other ways. Hillarity Ensues.

[Fonzi]

DUe of them being good firends, she cannot just break into her house and steal it like that.

*chuckle* Yeah, right.

[ToyoRai]

*chuckle* Yeah, right.

Hey, if she just decides to steal it by force right at the beggining, there would be no story (unless I pull Mystic Chain). This is actually the story I want to work on, having though up few scenariors for it already.

[Fonzi]

Don't get me wrong. I have nothing against your idea. I just find Marisa's friendly relationship with someone as an excuse for not stealing from them as... amusing to say the least. Just look at how she treats Patchy.  I seriously wonder when will she tackle Kosuzu's bookstore next. Alice is probably safe due to her not having as many/as interesting books as SDM library and Suzunaan.

[ToyoRai]

Well, Marisa and Patchy aren't friends. But really, I cannot really think of any toher reason why Marisa just doesn't hit and run with the Grimoire. Of course, since the story isn't going to be serious, I guess silly reasoning like that ain't a bad thing.

[Fonzi]

Well, Marisa and Patchy aren't friends.

Canon-wise, she isn't any more friends with Alice than she is with Patchouli.  Both of them assisted her during the games at least once. And besides, this is Touhou, where even best friends have no shame about attacking each other, beating each other up and going home without the slightest hint of regret.

[ToyoRai]

...Canon is cruel mistress. I guess I have more to think of if I am going to write this story. I try to stick as close to canon as possible, though I have no shame of ignoring some stuff about canon.

[Captain Vulcan]

Canon-wise, she isn't any more friends with Alice than she is with Patchouli.  Both of them assisted her during the games at least once. And besides, this is Touhou, where even best friends have no shame about attacking each other, beating each other up and going home without the slightest hint of regret.

And really... with friends like them, who needs enemies?

[Captain Vulcan]

Lately, I've been working on a Maribel and Renko-centered story. I'm only 3 pages in but the prospect of them finally meeting Yukari is saving this story from rotting in a flash drive for all eternity. The Muse is working somewhat, but I am still stomped on a few things:

Should they somehow arrive in Gensokyou (at long last)? How will Maribel react if she is to visit the land she's been seeing in her dreams?

Or...

Let it be a twist of fate kinda thing and have them running into Yukari in the modern world?

These shackles won't come off.

[ToyoRai]

I have an idea about a story I might do after I am done with my current story but I might need some opinions on it.

Yuuka and Elly: Dream Or Reality
 -For longest time Yuuka has seen the events of Lotus Land Story as one thing: a dream. All the locations, events, characters, everything, was just a dream. However, there is one person from it which is why she still remembers it: Elly. Not only that, but she feels that Elly might have been a real person and that the events of LLS were real. As such,s he sets off to find the truth of this matter.

[ShiroiMahotsukai]

Hi! This is my first post in this thread so i'm pleased to meet everyone.

I am currently planning to write a Touhou Crossover in which our heroines adhere to the rules of a different Genre of game as strictly as they do to their ow Shmup Spell Card rules. First I'm going to try Disgaea for the SRPG genre (it's the only game in that genre as over-the-top as I think Touhou deserves) and I looking for an opinion on something.

Is it worth trying to make SRPG combat slightly more interesting to read than daily records of grass growing? Or would it be better to simply focus on the action?

[Achariyth]

@Toyo,

I'm a bit confused by your title.  Is Letty going to be involved?  Seems rather PC-98 oriented to me, so I'm not sure where the snow-woman's going to fit in.

@Shiroi,

Often times it's hard to tell from a concept how it will turn out.  I've seen some ideas that I'd swear were surefire flops turn into hits, and surefire hits turn into outright disasters.  It all depends on execution.  I'd suggest writing up a practice scene with the Disgaea type rules and shopping it around to beta readers.  Get their reactions and make your decision from that.

@Others,

Now it's time for my question.  Is Iku more of a direct approach girl or would she do some behind-the-scenes sneaky tricks  Say, if the Celestials are trying to get some land back from Suika that a certain hotheaded Celectial gave her?