Labyrinth of Touhou Discussion #3

[Ghaleon]

Scourge IMO is pretty crappy. Flower blade is way better IMO, as is shuttle body and palisen files. Of course you need one to get that elusive star.

[Garlyle]

You know I never heard of that game:
"http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Etrian_Odyssey"
Sounds interesting. I'm not too pleased about making my own map...I can't write or draw, so I'm basically fucked. Is it worth playing anyway?

And what do you mean by actual? You mean they'll make Eterian Odyssey 4? They'll make their own version without Touhou? or they'll make another Touhou remake of it that is more similar than Labyrinth of Touhou?

I know you aren't sure, but I'm just curious what you meant.

This game's japanese title is Touhou no Meikyuu
The JP title of Etrian Odyssey is "Sekaijuu no Meikyuu".

This is why a lot of the initial name references were "Touhou Etrian Odyssey" before "Labyrinth of Touhou" was decided upon as the standard.  The game even shares a good number of similiarities as a dungeon crawler.

Regardless, I remember seeing screenshots from the creator's page which showed that their next Touhou fangame is going to be far closer to Etrian Odyssey in look than this game, which is very much its own spin on the dungeon crawler genre as a whole.

[Ghaleon]

This game's japanese title is Touhou no Meikyuu
The JP title of Etrian Odyssey is "Sekaijuu no Meikyuu".

This is why a lot of the initial name references were "Touhou Etrian Odyssey" before "Labyrinth of Touhou" was decided upon as the standard.  The game even shares a good number of similiarities as a dungeon crawler.

Regardless, I remember seeing screenshots from the creator's page which showed that their next Touhou fangame is going to be far closer to Etrian Odyssey in look than this game, which is very much its own spin on the dungeon crawler genre as a whole.

Ok cool thanks...so it's still a touhou fangame *gasps in relief*.

I've been thinking who I'm going to use for my new game+. I have a question for people w ho have used Yukari...Is she capable of surviving as a 2nd slot tank? so 80% damage demon slashing dances, the occasional steel slash, slash dives, etc? I kinda want to have some new tanks for my next playthru, but china is probably a must, and well, options that I already don't use on my first playthru are limited, especially since I don't want to use cootie-bag.

[MysTeariousYukari]

Ghaleon, she can survive in the 2nd slot, but I think other chars would be better, like Yuugi.

[Serela]

I've been thinking who I'm going to use for my new game+. I have a question for people w ho have used Yukari...Is she capable of surviving as a 2nd slot tank? so 80% damage demon slashing dances, the occasional steel slash, slash dives, etc? I kinda want to have some new tanks for my next playthru, but china is probably a must, and well, options that I already don't use on my first playthru are limited, especially since I don't want to use cootie-bag.

She isn't that awesome at taking physical hits... I mean, she has decent DEF/HP, but she can't tank 2nd slot on a boss with physical attacks. Well, if you went for DEF on level ups she should definitely be able to, but its so much more efficient to go for MND... then again, if you go for DEF, she should have pretty good DEF and MND, so it might work.

I dunno. Same case goes for Ran as for Yukari, tank-wise, except Ran's buffs are slower to get out so it doesn't work as well. Sakuya with DEF level ups could do for 2nd slot.

If you're going off a New Game+ you could use Kanako maybe (...maybe not.), or Keine with DEF level ups (Which is just about identical to Sakuya with DEF levelups, except different kind of buff)

And@Mystearica, Yuugi's MND is so low you can't even consider using her as a tank. Especially since most of the required bosses in the main game 9F+ have tons of MAG attacks.

The stat you go for on level ups makes such a dramatically huge difference to the stat, that it really opens things up if you go for a defensive stat instead of offensive. Someone you'd normally use as a tank anyway would work better of course, but Sakuya/Keine/Yukari with DEF level ups should make passable 2nd slot tanks. Or maybe Wriggle, who can still damage with PSN despite low ATK.

[MysTeariousYukari]

And@Mystearica, Yuugi's MND is so low you can't even consider using her as a tank. Especially since most of the required bosses in the main game 9F+ have tons of MAG attacks.

I said Yuugi cuz of her decent DEF. Although since Ghaleon won't use any used on his previous play, no Remi for 2nd slot. Ghaleon, who is a no-go for characters to use? We can't reccomend until we know who you won't be willing use.

[Ghaleon]

I said Yuugi cuz of her decent DEF. Although since Ghaleon won't use any used on his previous play, no Remi for 2nd slot. Ghaleon, who is a no-go for characters to use? We can't reccomend until we know who you won't be willing use.

Oh I'm planning on using the best characters from my old game, so I can see accurately how new ones compare. So I AM using reimu,marisa,remi,patchy, and china. The rest is new. I want to try yuyuko and chen out for sure, as well as ran. Since I'm trying chen and ran, I figure might as well try yukari for "that" spell, But I do n't know if she can be a slot 2 tank. Remi can too but not all the time. Maybe I should give Yuugi a shot because so far my party setup is heavy mnd oriented compare to def.

Yeah I think I'll try her as a potential secondary tank. Her def is better than Sakuya's, but level up rate is slower, so it's probably even. But I think she'll be better because she is capable of defense buffing, so she'll always have a decent defense buff up too probably.

I'm not really hoping for party suggestions so much as wondering if Yukari can do that, which will influence my other choices.

[MysTeariousYukari]

If your using Meiling and Remi, then you can use those 2 for the 1st and 2nd slots. Remi actually can be sitting in the 2nd slot 24/7 due to her having great DEF and MND

[Ghaleon]

If your using Meiling and Remi, then you can use those 2 for the 1st and 2nd slots. Remi actually can be sitting in the 2nd slot 24/7 due to her having great DEF and MND

Yeah, it's w hat I do already, but sometimes one or the other has to step out to regen sp or something.

[Serela]

Yeah, Remi can definitely sit in the 2nd slot all the time because of her self-buff, especially if there are party DEF/MND buffs which, in addition to her self-buff, keeps her DEF/MND VERY highly buffed. And Remi has great SP recovery, heck, with stuff that boosts SP recov a little (Lion King Soul, King of Heart Badge (I think), Gold Cloth, other lovely things Remi should be given), she'll recover like 80 SP on focus so she never needs to be switched out.

Also, Yukari is a godly 3rd slot character if you level up her MND because she'll take usually take low damage from composite and 0 damage from magic, after using her party MND/DEF buff. In the second slot though... that isn't a good idea against bosses with strong physical attacks.

[MysTeariousYukari]

For that then

Spoiler:

Ran and Yukari could survive in the 1st and 2nd slots, but not for long, especially in the 1st. Ran and Yukari are like Alternate Tanks, they have better DEF then the squishies but not as good as a Tank. Also, why do people even mention putting a Level Bonus in DEF or MND with anyone that isn't named Tenshi? Aside from Tenshi, shouldn't every Level Bonus go into that chars offensive stat? Like MAG for Reimu/Yukari or ATK for Remi/Meiling?

I still can not figure out how to boost BP through use of Cheat Engine, I seriously need help on this.

[Serela]

Also, why do people even mention putting a Level Bonus in DEF or MND with anyone that isn't named Tenshi? Aside from Tenshi, shouldn't every Level Bonus go into that chars offensive stat? Like MAG for Reimu/Yukari or ATK for Remi/Meiling?[/spoiler]

...why in the world would you give Meiling ATK on level ups when she'll take 0 damage from like everything if you give her DEF. >:I    I mean, she's busy spamming Switch/Healer/Colorful Rain in bosses anyway, and on free turns she needs to Focus!

Also, Yukari's attacks aren't that awesome even with MAG levels (unless Chen is out, or even better, Chen+Ran), and she's so slow she'll have to spend most of her time buffing anyway.

But anyone who isn't just for Tank/Support stuff should be given their respective offensive stat.

[MysTeariousYukari]

...why in the world would you give Meiling ATK on level ups when she'll take 0 damage from like everything if you give her DEF. >:I    I mean, she's busy spamming Switch/Healer/Colorful Rain in bosses anyway, and on free turns she needs to Focus!

Also,

Spoiler:

Yukari's attacks aren't that awesome even with MAG levels (unless Chen is out, or even better, Chen+Ran)

, and she's so slow she'll have to spend most of her time buffing anyway.

But anyone who isn't just for Tank/Support stuff should be given their respective offensive stat.

And yet, Meiling takes 0s or really low dmg counts from everything, rarely needs to use Healer cause either she or Remi get hit andf Remi takes 0s to low dmg just like Meiling. Oh and guess what? I put almost all of her level ups into ATK and she does good damage. Although, yes she is the switcher cause most other chars have sumthin better to do.

Spoiler:

Chen and Ran have 0 effect on the dmg dealt out by Yukari's Mesh, which is her only offense move worth using, unless the foe is weak to WND. She only ever needs to use her buff in a Boss Fight, or the 30F trash. Nothing else is worth it.

[Ghaleon]

For that then

Spoiler:

Ran and Yukari could survive in the 1st and 2nd slots, but not for long, especially in the 1st. Ran and Yukari are like Alternate Tanks, they have better DEF then the squishies but not as good as a Tank. Also, why do people even mention putting a Level Bonus in DEF or MND with anyone that isn't named Tenshi? Aside from Tenshi, shouldn't every Level Bonus go into that chars offensive stat? Like MAG for Reimu/Yukari or ATK for Remi/Meiling?

I still can not figure out how to boost BP through use of Cheat Engine, I seriously need help on this.

Eh, I wasn't intending for either ran or yukari to goto slot 1, that's crazy (unless you're fighting something like the final boss with first add dead).

As for why you spend level up bonuses in defensive stats (I always do), it's because of the mechanics of this game. the damage formula is attack MINUS defense. (with numbers and such, but the point is it subtracts). Other games might divide. when you have a divide formula, stacking defense will reduce your damage taken yes, but there is no point in stakcing it to kingdom come because while the first 1000 points might reduce a hit taken from 100 to 50, the 5th 1000 points will only reduce a hit from 100 to something like 80. Kinda like the whole elemental resistance formula in THIS game.

Anyway, when you have a subtraction formula, for pretty much ANY rpg game, defensive stats typically rule. While attack and defense are equally important while you and your enemy take exactly the same amount of damage you both give and receive, defense will make you pull ahead more as you level up. because if you suddenly increase your defense by 50%, you'll take half the damage, and you'll suddenly be 2X stronger than your opponant. However if you added 50% more attack...you only kill your enemy 50% faster, and are only 1.5X stronger...hopefully that makes sense.

If you're super under level, and you take like 20000 damage and only dish out like 500, increasing your damage output by 1000 will make a much larger impact than lowering your damage taken by 1000, but the fact is, generally. in a game like this, if you're taking that much damage, and ealing that much...YOUR ALREADY DEAD >=P

[Ghaleon]

Double post cuz totally unrelated to last post..

But I think I've just discovered some kind of pattern with skillpoint costs. Naturally the lower the skill level, the less accurate my estimation is. But the amount of skillpoints needed for the skill levelup double your current skill level will cost approximately 4X more than your current skill level.

so if at skill level 30, raising a certain stat costs 500, it will progressively go up to about 2000 to raise at skill level 60.

Seriously though, as I am recording skillpoint costs for different characters, it seems like the method they chose for the pricing of stats for each character is they first make it proportionate to that character's base stat, then they rolled 5D2 to determine if it would be under or over what you expect >=P

[Pesco]

When in doubt, fit a curve

If you got trouble cheating to fix BP or whatever, do the full tutorial that comes with CE. Gotta learn to do some stuff on your own since I can't make a step by step video for you.

[AlexX Unlimited]

I've tried out basically every non-Plus character for several floors, so I know pretty well which ones fall below expectations (or simply had terrible expectations in the first place)

I'd honestly contest a good amount of those chars. The way things are going now I'm going to be beating the game with at least half of those characters in my party, and even the ones you listed as the worst don't really lose their value until plus-disk content, at which point you get characters designed to break the game in every possible way... You sure playstyle doesn't just vary that much?

EDIT: Also you lied to me. Lily Sigil isn't anywhere near as vulnerable to paralysis as you claim, because all my chars with a paralysis move tried it on him and not a single one hit the entire battle.

[Ghaleon]

Can someone show me where to download the newgame+ patch? I found one link on the official website, but it seems to lead to some Yahoo Japan 403 error page. (I odn't know what it is but it looks like a "this site is not available anymore" site to me).

[nintendonut888]

Wow, floor 19 is very charitable, giving me not one, but TWO checkpoints so far. Of course, the size is starting to take a toll on my computer, but who cares, this is the map I've been looking forward to all game. :>

[Ghaleon]

Wow, floor 19 is very charitable, giving me not one, but TWO checkpoints so far. Of course, the size is starting to take a toll on my computer, but who cares, this is the map I've been looking forward to all game. :>

I thought you got a new computer a few months ago...

[nintendonut888]

I thought you got a new computer a few months ago...

I did, back in August. I never said it was top of the line. :yukkuri: If I had to estimate what year this computer would be top of the line in, I'd say 2007.

[Ghaleon]

I did, back in August. I never said it was top of the line. :yukkuri: If I had to estimate what year this computer would be top of the line in, I'd say 2007.

My computer is older than that, and...well, handles this fine. You sure you aren't running the game from a floppy disk!?

edit: Just re-stating help with 2.06b patch, website link isn't working for me.. wahh, I want new game plus wahhh.

[Serela]

My computer is older than that, and...well, handles this fine. You sure you aren't running the game from a floppy disk!?

edit: Just re-stating help with 2.06b patch, website link isn't working for me.. wahh, I want new game plus wahhh.

I put it up on MegaUpload sometime in the last topic, and with people asking for it I requoted the post with the download a few times. Just go in there and look for a post with a really big quote box  :V

I'd honestly contest a good amount of those chars. The way things are going now I'm going to be beating the game with at least half of those characters in my party, and even the ones you listed as the worst don't really lose their value until plus-disk content, at which point you get characters designed to break the game in every possible way... You sure playstyle doesn't just vary that much?

EDIT: Also you lied to me. Lily Sigil isn't anywhere near as vulnerable to paralysis as you claim, because all my chars with a paralysis move tried it on him and not a single one hit the entire battle.

Its not that they're bad to use, its just other characters can do what they do, and do it better. Also, the list of "Worse but not terrible" characters are totally usable. They're just... you know, a little worse then others.

Sanae and Youmu wouldn't even be on the list if they weren't pretty much outclassed by someone else (although Sanae isn't THAT bad to use compared to Minoriko, just... a lot less healing per cast and a whole heckuva lot more delay in exchange for less MND and a negligible amount more DEF)

Wow, floor 19 is very charitable, giving me not one, but TWO checkpoints so far. Of course, the size is starting to take a toll on my computer, but who cares, this is the map I've been looking forward to all game. :>

If you've got a good bit of slowdown after just 2 of the checkpoints...

Teehee.  :V


...WHAT IS THIS I DON'T EVEN
I start up thLaby after I wake up, and the first fight I get is a Diamond Knight. And after Flan 1shots him, I get Scourge. Just like that. brb lying down

[LHCling]

Alright, so far I'm seeing people putting these people down as "absolute crap":
Sakuya
Cirno
Wriggle

Spoiler:

Reisen

And the "not so bad":

Spoiler:

Iku

Spoiler:

Eirin

I've noted the other choices, but there's no "common" agreement between them as of yet so I won't list them right now. Anybody else who hasn't answered yet and would like to add? Donut? You're quite far in; you can give an opinion.

[Milkyway64]

I'm going to do a LP of this game for my REAL second playthrough. Problem is I need to figure out audio/sound software to do it with. :ohdear:

[AlexX Unlimited]

Sanae and Youmu wouldn't even be on the list if they weren't pretty much outclassed by someone else (although Sanae isn't THAT bad to use compared to Minoriko, just... a lot less healing per cast and a whole heckuva lot more delay in exchange for less MND and a negligible amount more DEF)

Greenie heals status effects and... are you sure she has that much worse MND than Minoriko? Taking off all of Green One's equipment and checking to be sure their skillpoint levels are the same, their MND is actually about the same...

...And I'm still mad about the Lily Sigil thing. You know how many turns I wasted trying to PAR that guy when damage would have helped more? >=V I think you were just lucky when you managed to keep him in a perpetual state of PAR, or maybe I'm just that unlucky. Either is possible.

[nintendonut888]

Cirno is most definitely NOT crap. Not only is she one of the fastest characters, but she she deal composite damage to all enemies AND lower their speed, not to mention paralyze them.

As for characters that came off as bad...well, I never gave many of them a fair chance, but Sakuya and Wriggle always came off as useless beyond meat shields.

[nintendonut888]

One sigil down, I assume there's three. I just faced Cosmic, and...well, time to find the third! ;^_^

[LHCling]

You'll have to come back to it some time...
Oh, and there's 4 of them.

[Ghaleon]

One sigil down, I assume there's three. I just faced Cosmic, and...well, time to find the third! ;^_^

cosmic is a bs luck fight... But I think I know somehing that should help. Stick patchy in front, someone like yuyuko in second (high mnd character that is), I believe that will make cosmic dual laser attack NOT instagib the front two... Magic jitsu ether flare is still probably a game over though.