Theism in Gensokyo - a discussion

[Fightest]

But you can also lose faith. Kanako's story illustrates how faith works in Gensokyo very well.

Yeah, this is true, and I didn't express myself too clearly above. My engine analogy is the best way I can express myself - lots of faith = big engine, little faith = small engine, and this is dynamic, based on how many worshipers one has at any given moment.

[Tengukami]

Ah, gotcha.

[Solais]

I just throw up some of my comments here.

- First of all, most who know Shintoism refer to these gods and deities as "kami", because "god" is not the appropriate term for them.

- I don't really think that Yumemi is from "our" world, she used a Dimensional Ship and high-tech, maybe she's from the far future, or another dimension.

- I think Makai is like those dream worlds in LLS and Alice's dream in MS. Shinki is the creator of Makai, as it's her dream; OR Makai already exist in old stories and stuff, and she is just a kami who gained enough faith to create it... or more like the people's faith in Makai created Makai and Shinki in the first place.

- And last, Monotheism is idiotic and stupid.

[Fightest]

- And last, Monotheism is idiotic and stupid.

Oh snap, that's certainly not a comment that will offend anyone, no sir.

[Nobu]

Thing is, there's no evidence of faith being treated as something expendable. Once you have faith, you have it, and can wield greater powers as a result. Faith determines the size of your engine, as it were, not how much fuel is in it.

To be fair, is there any evidence that that shows specifically that faith -isn't- expendible? Because I see both interpretations as equally viable (unless i'm missing some key information here.)

This brings up something else I was wondering about. Shikieiki's no goddess, she's a Yama, but she seems to be... how to say, outside of the system where she needs faith to be effective. She does not strike me as the type to have faith in the gods, though; she sees their moral failings too easily for that. I always did wonder if Shiki believed in any particular god or goddess, or at least where she gets her authority from in the celestial courts.

I know at least one metaverse (*koffkoff exalted*) that renders faith as both currency and power source, with the faith generated from general prayers to no-one specific going to a 'pool' that the Celestial Hierarchy distributes to all of the gods as a sort of salary. It could be like that.

Though if I had to craft my own theory, i'd say that the celestial courts and Shikieiki are an integrated part of the order of the cosmos, and they exist outside the faith-based system of interdependence that gods and humans go through. Shiki may still be a 'god', but a god that's an eternal mainstay of creation.

[Solais]

Oh snap, that's certainly not a comment that will offend anyone, no sir.

Opinions offend people. This is why we have wars.

[Fightest]

Opinions offend people. This is why we have wars.

This may surprise some, but opinions can also be fundamentally wrong.

This is not the case for your comment, but there was clearly no other objective to it other than to incite argument or offend.

That said, this is going to derail, so I suggest we both stop right here and get back on topic.

[Solais]

True dat. And people who know me, knows why I'm thinking like that (I'm not offending, I can go with a whole philosophical lecture why I'm thinking like that). So, people, continue.

[Menreiki]

- I don't really think that Yumemi is from "our" world, she used a Dimensional Ship and high-tech, maybe she's from the far future, or another dimension.

- I think Makai is like those dream worlds in LLS and Alice's dream in MS. Shinki is the creator of Makai, as it's her dream; OR Makai already exist in old stories and stuff, and she is just a kami who gained enough faith to create it... or more like the people's faith in Makai created Makai and Shinki in the first place.

Yumemi is from another planet, not from another dimension. At least that is what ZUN wants us to believe. There is not a lot of information about her besides her official profile and in-game dialogue, but I doubt ZUN want to take other dimensions into Touhou canon. He already has a lot of problems trying to make sense in only one of them.

Makai is a realm as far as I know, which can only be accessed via Gensokyo. There are a lot of things that ZUN have to explain how they work, but if something is for sure, the Makai is a place that can be visited by any youkai/human strong enough to take up the challenge.

This brings up something else I was wondering about. Shikieiki's no goddess, she's a Yama, but she seems to be... how to say, outside of the system where she needs faith to be effective. She does not strike me as the type to have faith in the gods, though; she sees their moral failings too easily for that. I always did wonder if Shiki believed in any particular god or goddess, or at least where she gets her authority from in the celestial courts.

Well, Yamas are actually as strong as gods, so believing in a god herself would be really weird. I think that faith has nothing to do with her existence or power since she has a job that doesn't give any direct benefits to humans.

[mouthsore]

- I don't really think that Yumemi is from "our" world, she used a Dimensional Ship and high-tech, maybe she's from the far future, or another dimension.

Maybe Yumemi is from the Seihou universe or something.

[AlexX Unlimited]

also if she were Christian she'd have a little trouble reconciling a unified theory that includes magic with the Bible saying DO NOT DO MAGIC

Bit off-topic, but isn't just black magic (i.e. dark arts) that are forbidden?

Can't remember, but I know there's quite a few cases where something specific was, over time, generalized to something much larger.

[Tengukami]

The Bible has proscriptions against divining, and says witches should be put to death, but doesn't say what constitutes a witch.  They didn't cover danmaku, but as danmaku does "spiritual damage," my guess is that would also be a sin.

[Chaore]

The Bible has proscriptions against divining, and says witches should be put to death, but doesn't say what constitutes a witch.  They didn't cover danmaku, but as danmaku does "spiritual damage," my guess is that would also be a sin.

Yumemi is Pre-Spell Cards. I'm pretty sure this is when people actively were trying to kill each other, lest there always have been some kind of magic game people played.

Therefore, she is just trying to knock people out/kill them deader. What her danmaku is expressing could be very well Yumemi running up and hitting people over the head with a giant cross.

[OkashiiKisei]

Yumemi is Pre-Spell Cards. I'm pretty sure this is when people actively were trying to kill each other, lest there always have been some kind of magic game people played.

Therefore, she is just trying to knock people out/kill them deader. What her danmaku is expressing could be very well Yumemi running up and hitting people over the head with a giant cross.

And what Yumemi's firin' could very well be laser guns, using her technology to use make-shift danmaku. She can't use magic herself. Otherwise she wouldn't be searching for it in Gensokyo!

[♛ Apher-Forte]

I quote an example I learned long ago.

the Izuna

The Izuna are miko in the southern parts of Japan, but instead of performing local duties of cleaning and maintaining a shrine, the Izuna-mikoto normally has to do the work of mediums.

Take note however, they don't believe in Gods, or God period, and that in classic mythology, it was rumored they all follow a common lifestyle of abstinence, and patience through meditation.

It is, if at all, they never do in fact worship anything.

I come to think of Reimu as a follower of such a path, who uses natural spirits (Aya, can be considered a youkai of the mountain, a natural occuring youkai guarding the mountain capable of manipulating wind), or even holy youkai (namely Yukari) to aid her conquest. Just as the old Izuna Mikoto did, they employed incantations that ask for the assistance of gods or god to come to their being, normally through possessing.

Many accounts recall they can summon spirits to inhabit them and talk in tongues, others say it gives them powers to do things normal humans cannot, such as lifting impossible weights. Izuna Mikoto can also be found in certain media concerning the making of holistic drugs, not unlike the Ayurveda treatment.

Izuna Mikoto have many accounts where they employed the strength of great deities, such as the Myo-oh (Bu Dong Ming Huang Da Pu Sha) the deity Bodhisattva that controls the element of fire, the fierce fourth heavenly guardian (as opposed to the Vaisravana); this being is said to make the Mikoto able to walk through fire, and rescue trapped individuals in burning houses and so on.

There are many accounts, talking in tongues is one such thing. In India, certain priests are known to have the ability to reach onto the human body and extract tumorous lumps from them and cure a human of an incurable disease, I reckon if Reimu is following the path of the Izuna, it would not be surprising that Reimu has the ability to be possessed by youkai and use their strengths, or employ certain means to utilize the youkai that surrounds her to do miraculous cures.

[mouthsore]

Therefore, she is just trying to knock people out/kill them deader. What her danmaku is expressing could be very well Yumemi running up and hitting people over the head with a giant cross.

If you recall Sky Gunner, you threw giant crosses at whatever and shot the crosses to detonate them.

[Solais]

AF's Izuna Mikoto theory can work, and I also read about them.

[OkashiiKisei]

Wow, and I thought Reimu already was a game breaker extraordinaire! If she could use the powers of the likes of Suika and Yukari as her own she'd be godlike!

[warpshadow]

Wow, and I thought Reimu already was a game breaker extraordinaire! If she could use the powers of the likes of Suika and Yukari as her own she'd be godlike!

It's very possible that she did such a thing in SA.

[mew77]

The thing with reimu is that she doesn't try that hard...and is a slacker usually unless there is an incident.

If reimu actually tried I would have beaten SA by now instead of getting stuck on stage 3.


And naito, reimu already is godlike..if she were to actually start trying.

well it would be her iight in IN....that was freaking insane and I was trying on normal mode.

[Hideki]

I think that that is strongly implied in SSiB, where she and Yorihime did call down the gods on themselves. 

[ebarrett]

It's very possible that she did such a thing in SA.

Nah, Yukari is the one pulling the strings in both the Reimu/Yukari and the Reimu/Suika scenarios, as far as I remember. In fact I believe SA has the youkai sending Reimu and Marisa to do their bidding in the underground in all scenarios. Can't really remember Nitori's, though.

[mew77]

Nah, Yukari is the one pulling the strings in both the Reimu/Yukari and the Reimu/Suika scenarios, as far as I remember. In fact I believe SA has the youkai sending Reimu and Marisa to do their bidding in the underground in all scenarios. Can't really remember Nitori's, though.

As I recall nitori's was to get someone to investigate the new form of energy..

Basically check out how cool was nuclear fusion...

concusion being awesome

or something along those lines.