Touhou Project 17 「東方鬼形獣 ～ Wily Beast and Weakest Creature.」

[PK]

I hope we get at least some preexisting character as midboss.

[Drayen]

Maybe I'm getting old, but shot types are getting flashier and flashier. It's getting distracting when all you want to look at are enemy bullets. Anyways, more touhou is always good

[Drake]

It's only the first one that's the regular shot; the others are hypers.

[game2011]

Prior to Touhou 16; we'd have said the chance of the Extra Stage boss literally being the Stage 6 boss was low as well.

Nothing is out of the question.

Also I raise you the various Marisa/Reimu fights; Yuyuko in TD and Aya in MoF. It's not unheard of, and actually seems to occur every few games. None of them have been beyond Stage 4 however. [Especially since in a standard Touhou game Marisa is seemingly forbidden from being anything except an effective Stage 4 boss. She even manages this in GFW since there's only 3 stages so the Extra is Stage 4...]

ZUN takes pride in introducing new characters, and bringing back an old character for an EX stage is unlikely of him.  Okina is still considered a new character, even if she appeared in two stages.  Using an old character as an early stage boss is more likely.

[Popcioslav]

Haven't posted here about this, but I'm actually extremely hyped this time.
And while I'm usually being a logical realist and I should say that there are no chances of any previous boss returning... well...

Stage 1 seems to either be Moenzuka or some other river, we know game takes place in Hell and there are no teasers in any of the images for a boss. Someone who would welcome guests to hell and is on river would match Charon and since ZUN is using more greek mythology lately ... I really hope he's teasing either Komachi or Eiki reference/boss cameo in first stage? Of course nothing I've said so far makes sense, in HSiFS ZUN also didn't showcase Eternity in any of the teasers until the CD pic, ZUN really hasn't used more greek mythology other than for Hecatia maybe and really it can just be a really cool new OC and I'd still be happy.

I think ZUN's and pretty much every solo creator's whole deal is that they can really do whatever they want, so it will be hard to predict whatever truly anything returning is out of question or relevant. If he wants to bring Yuuka in PoVF, he can. If he wants to bring Cirno, but he forgot he gave Marisa the winter stage in HSiFS, than he can just give Cirno a tan and bam she's representing summer now. Now we have a dream world with a replica of every character. Now we have cameras that capture bullets. I really wouldn't even be surprised if by Touhou 18 ZUN will run out of cool powers, so he'll just introduce Stands.

[VividMemory2000]

Blah blah MUH PATTERNS

Kasen is definitely going to be a full on boss. Mark my words!

And to this VERY day i still wish for mima to come back!

[not ZUNs wife]

very excited for this game, seems like there's a vision here that's been a long time brewing

[862ian]

Honestly i have a feeling any PC98 characters zun wants to bring over he will for the 25th anniversary (or do something for said characters in general) Since half a century is a major milestone for a series, especially one that is a indie series. But for bosses the first stage boss will likely be a SA character (Okuu or Orin come to mind both dealing with spirits) Just to give a direction for the player to head in.

[Honoakari]

The kanji title can be translated as "Demon-shaped beast", or else "Oni-shaped beast". I assume this is a hint regarding the Stage 6 boss, or maybe the EX boss, or maybe some other important character...

Since the kanji for "Oni" is there in the title, Kasen could make an appearance in this game.

It would be interesting if we could see some PC-98 characters return, though that's probably not going to happen (who would return anyway? Mima? Kikuri? Konngara?)...

It seems to me there are a lot of people who do not understand the difference between "Old Hell" and "New Hell". Touhou 11 takes place in "Old Hell". Touhou 17 will take place in "New Hell" (also commonly known as: "Hell"). Since the setting is different, there's no reason for the Touhou 11 characters to appear in this game.

It would be nice if one day ZUN could return to the style of the older PC games (especially 06-08... those were the best). Ever since Touhou 13 it feels like ZUN has been lowering the bar in terms of characters, music, danmaku... Fortunately, so far the new game looks promising.

[Suspicious person]

One week to go, woo.

Traditionally in Touhou games, you generally enter / reach the big bad's turf at or after stage 4. I personally expect whatever place we're starting from to be somewhere close to the entrance of a proper Hell, and stage 2 and 3 are gonna be pretty much kiddy stuff compared to the proper Hell-like Hell or the fancy building owned by the big bad located in there that these stages are leading us towards.

Anyway, dunno if this is something that we're gonna see in the earlier stages, but generally, for some reason, for a fair number of Hell related stuff, ZUN has associated wind (ie : lullaby of deserted Hell's beginning, wind blowing over Mt Ooe, Winds of Agartha, ...). Dunno why ZUN does that, but I wouldn't really be surprised if ZUN uses wind related motifs for this game.

There have been various mentions of types of Hells and things found in them, so, wild speculation here, but among the possible contenders for stages, we might possibly get a stage that's got the blood needle grass (if that was the name, damn I really need to reread FS), or some kind of barren place where wind blows heavily, or possibly the Hell of blood pools that Murasa was in, or none of those or whatever. And darkness. Potentially lots of darkness.

Spoiler:

Or eventually the paradise like place that Hecatia intends to set up in a Hell, brought up in VFiS's chapter 14, which is specifically designed to make the disembodied spirits jelly and regretfull of their lack of corporeal body.

It seems to me there are a lot of people who do not understand the difference between "Old Hell" and "New Hell". Touhou 11 takes place in "Old Hell". Touhou 17 will take place in "New Hell" (also commonly known as: "Hell"). Since the setting is different, there's no reason for the Touhou 11 characters to appear in this game.

There are plenty of Hells, but aside from how chaotic they are, their most defining feature is how they're instrumental in torturing and punishing the souls of the damned in Touhou. Old Hell is still a "hell " in the sense where it is a location that reunites the physical criterias that makes a hell a hell (extra super large, lack of lifeforce, not living creature friendly, dark, ...), but is not a hell in the more "administrative" sense where hells serves to punish badies cuz Old Hell got decommissioned.

The connections between the various kinds of hells is incertain though, but it is quite possible for the various hells to be located in one outrageously HUGE place and are physically connected, but travel is impractical due to the sheer size of the place ; just as it's possible that each and every single hell each exist in planes that are separate from each other ; or some are physically connected while others are in other planes. Clarification is currently needed.

It would be nice if one day ZUN could return to the style of the older PC games (especially 06-08... those were the best). Ever since Touhou 13 it feels like ZUN has been lowering the bar in terms of characters, music, danmaku...

Ehhh, that is LARGELY debatable. Going from the more unique composition styles of stuff like Clownpiece's, Raiko's, and some other songs to the more intense and generally agreed upon to be climatic final boss themes such Shinmyoumaru's or Junko's on the music side ; or considering characters such as Okina, Kokoro, Sagume, Sumireko and others, who clearly have much consideration towards the inspiration into making them AND what they add to the series ; and as for danmaku ... eh, there are ok and not-so-ok ones (it's a bit complex for me to possibly rant about in a few sentences). Anyway, there are plenty of considerations that need to be put in regards to the new material, and as a lore guy, and I'm sure various other people will echo my sentiments, Touhou has never been as interesting as it currently is. So, I personally do not see much things that lend credence to how the bar gets lowered in recent works. It does not make much sense that ZUN's ability as a creator go down while his experience as a creator piles up. While I'd agree that most of the older games are pretty polished compared to the newer releases, I doubt the new releases are as crappy as how the harshest critics say they are, having played them as well.

[Honoakari]

Touhou has never been as interesting as it currently is.

IDK man... Maybe this is how newer fans feel about it. Because they perceive Touhou, as it currently is, as a whole.

In my case I became a Touhou fan 10 years ago... To me the Touhou of back then was the whole. Since then, ZUN has been expanding the Touhou-verse in ways which sadly have not necessarily been in tune with what I consider to be the 'feel' of the original Touhou. Or in tune with what my hopes/expectations were for Touhou's future back then.

Because of this my interest has been dwindling bit by bit every year. The reason why I'm still around is because of the occasional good character and the occasional good song (it's all subjective so I don't think there is much to debate here). Sadly no new release seems to satisfy me anymore. The worst were Touhou 14 and 16 where I disliked almost all of the new characters... The music in general has been okay, but it doesn't feel as good compared to the previous 'era', apart from a few songs. Same with the danmaku.

Funnily, I found some of the recent fangames to be more enjoyable than some of the recent Touhou games (in terms of music and gameplay, characters not so much).

I think there is this pressure in the community... that in order to be a Touhou fan, you have to like everything about it. In my opinion Touhou has become so large, to the point where it's just impossible to like everything...

Anyway let's not have such a depressing discussion (here)... To be honest, I am happy that ZUN keeps making games every year. More is better than less. I will explore this new game with positive expectations, like I always do...

[TresserT]

I feel, as time has gone on, ZUN's focus has shifted away from the patterns that touhou is famous for and more towards interesting mechanics that are intended to keep the series fresh. Patterns nowadays tend to be more about how to best present a challenge with the mechanics. It kind of started in DDC and you can see it in LoLK, but HSiFS was the most blatant about it. Nemuno, the dancers, and Okina in particular have incredibly bland patterns that only become interesting because of the ways they force you to use the release mechanic.

I think this kind of thing is nice and it does help keep the series fresh, but I do wish he'd go back to the classic pattern focus he had in the earlier games, at least for a bit. Doesn't seem like 17 will be that kind of game though.

Still, I'm excited for the new characters and music. I don't think the story telling or music has gotten worse at all compared to older games (though the same experimentality thing applies to the music, he always mixes in a couple "classic" tracks to keep things balanced).

[nintendonut888]

I feel, as time has gone on, ZUN's focus has shifted away from the patterns that touhou is famous for and more towards interesting mechanics that are intended to keep the series fresh. Patterns nowadays tend to be more about how to best present a challenge with the mechanics. It kind of started in DDC and you can see it in LoLK, but HSiFS was the most blatant about it. Nemuno, the dancers, and Okina in particular have incredibly bland patterns that only become interesting because of the ways they force you to use the release mechanic.

As someone who has never used the release mechanic, I'm not sure I can agree. Personally I think HSiFS has some of the mechanically most interesting danmaku since UFO, and Okina in particular is one of the flashiest bosses in the series. While it's true it's been a long while since we've had a pattern that really sets the mind ablaze like Scarlet Gensokyo or Virtue of Wind God, I think in terms of dodging the danmaku is just as interesting and engaging as it's always been.

As for the music, I've given this a lot of thought recently. While it's undeniable ZUN's style has changed since the "golden age," I've come to question how much this suggests ZUN is losing his touch. When you think about it, what people most associate as "the best the series has to offer" in terms of sound is basically just PCB and IN. EoSD has a pretty different sound from those games, and even by PoFV the music was beginning to shift towards the style used in MoF. But personally, while I do miss the unique feel of those songs, I think the music in the newer games is largely just as good as it's ever been - just in different ways. But I think that kind of change is what shows the series is still alive. Just as the PC-98 games had a dreamy, childlike feel, and the early Windows games had that fantastical sound, I feel the music has continued to change and evolve. And while others may have their own opinion, I'm excited to continue following that change.

As for the characters, that is of course down to personal taste and not really the kind of thing one can debate. But personally HSiFS has my favorite cast ensemble since Suberranean Animism. I for one still am waiting for Narumi's chance to take off in the fandom.

[AGS]

Pretty interesting this new Touhou game. I'm looking forward to it, specially the shottypes and the story in general.
Wouldn't be bad if there was a Lizard Goast too...maybe that's for the Extra?

Accompanied by a boy that won't stop following me around (4 y.o.) and a girl fiercely in her "no" phase (2 y.o.),

*chuckle*

Maybe "goast" is actually a fusion of "ghost" and "beast"?

Considering the usage of the word "wily", that's likely.

[Drake]

IDK man... Maybe this is how newer fans feel about it. Because they perceive Touhou, as it currently is, as a whole.

In my case I became a Touhou fan 10 years ago... To me the Touhou of back then was the whole.

Oh please lmao, don't argue "I don't really like the new stuff because it isn't like the familiar old stuff" and then try to spin that as though people are saying """real""" touhou fans must like everything; it's attitudes like these that instead showcase the unwillingness to flow with the series and accept anything that isn't what you started with. You see microcosms of this any time a new game comes out and babies yell about how X was the last good work.

[Kafuu]

Have been a fan of Touhou since MoF. ZUN never disappointed me
I like how he's connecting stories to each other in latest works
He even puts so much little details in his arts
Every time he releases a new music it becomes my instant favourite

[Jimmy]

I share the same sentiment, except I have gotten into Touhou quite late (around HM).
I especially admire that, despite how much he has already created, he is still able to come up with new fresh designs and concepts, and he is a sole creator, doing every part of the games himself, hell, he even writes up the story for the official mangas. That, and I am generally very open minded to new concepts and ideas. It usually takes some time for me to fully embrace his new releases, and I think that goes for a lot of people here. There isn't really anything in Touhou so far that I can say I genuinely dislike, I just like some characters and themes more and some less.

I'm quite excited about this new game. Looking at the title and the HUD, it does bode something dark to come, at least to me, darker than what we have seen in the main games so far. Though, with how ZUN used the word "dark" in his past few games, I could be mistaken. Though, the landscape looks kind of unsettling for an early stage, wondering what the story will entail. Also, as per every new release, I look forward to messing around with the game's mechanics, and of course the characters and themes.

[CyberAngel]

Oh please lmao, don't argue "I don't really like the new stuff because it isn't like the familiar old stuff" and then try to spin that as though people are saying """real""" touhou fans must like everything; it's attitudes like these that instead showcase the unwillingness to flow with the series and accept anything that isn't what you started with. You see microcosms of this any time a new game comes out and babies yell about how X was the last good work.

Amazing how some people can criticize a point of view and then prove it in the same paragraph.

[The ⑨th Zentillion]

Speaking of the babies Drake mentioned...

[nintendonut888]

Well, I do see the other side's point of view. For many people, the cast ensemble of EoSD-PoFV is Touhou, and to this day a lot of fanworks still focus on those groups. I can see how it would be hard to keep accepting new groups after all these years, especially if one or two games didn't have characters that really spoke to you. But then, what is Touhou if not discovering the parts of characters that you like? Even though I've been in the fandom since 2007, I still sometimes gain a new appreciation for characters I didn't think all that much of for years. I guess what the "try to be accepting of everything" group, as they're being labeled, want is to avoid falling into the trap of being afraid of the series growing bigger. If you go into the works with an open mind, you're much more likely to find things you like than if you're skeptical of whether or not you can accept them.

[CyberAngel]

Speaking of the babies Drake mentioned...

Let me open your eyes on something. ZUN's games aren't perfect. They have a lot of good points, true. But each and every one of them has flaws in its gameplay. He likes experimenting with it, and those experiments usually lack sufficient polish. It's more noticeable in some games than other but it's there. The question is: can you overlook those flaws to enjoy the good stuff? If you do then great. But not everyone is like that, and neither they should be. Everyone has their own tastes and standards. So hey, maybe you guys should stop generalizing everyone like they're not even giving new stuff a chance? Especially when they say they did and enjoyed at least some part of it.

[The ⑨th Zentillion]

Let me open your eyes on something. ZUN's games aren't perfect. They have a lot of good points, true. But each and every one of them has flaws in its gameplay. He likes experimenting with it, and those experiments usually lack sufficient polish. It's more noticeable in some games than other but it's there. The question is: can you overlook those flaws to enjoy the good stuff? If you do then great. But not everyone is like that, and neither they should be. Everyone has their own tastes and standards. So hey, maybe you guys should stop generalizing everyone like they're not even giving new stuff a chance? Especially when they say they did and enjoyed at least some part of it.

Well, no shit, Sherlock. Whether things are still good or not or have gotten better or worse are entirely subjective on something where lives are not on the stakes pile at all. But there's a difference between being mature about it or, well the opposite.

EDIT:  As an afterthought of posting this it does make this little squabble look pretty silly. Everyone needs to lighten up here, myself included.

[the old guy]

No U!

CyberAngel, the more you post, the more convinced I am your actually 12.

[Lebon14]

Oh, hey, this discussion again.

*tries typing something funny*
*lack of ideas*

WAHEY!

[Kilgamayan]

This is the part where the bickering stops and discussion of the upcoming game resumes.

[Nimono]

Oh, hey, this discussion again.

*tries typing something funny*
*lack of ideas*

WAHEY!

Good, I was not disappointed by the contents of the link


I side with the hypothesis that your spirit allies may actually be the real enemies here- changing the characters' personalities to essentially antisocial does not sound like positive forces that want to help the world. Like how holding the possessed tool in DDC made your character more bloodthirsty in dialogue, and it was presented as a Very Bad Thing^(tm). Though, I suppose it COULD just be an unintended side-effect that neither party wished for.

For chars... That area in the screenshots definitely looks like the locale of the finale for PoFV, so either Komachi or Eiki will absolutely appear. I'm guessing it'll be like TD- in this case, Stage 1 they'll need to go to Eiki to either get permission to enter Hell, or Hell's on the other side of it, and Eiki's being a blockade until they prove their power. Past that, probably all-new characters. I can't see SA chars appearing, since they're part of Old Hell.

[nintendonut888]

For chars... That area in the screenshots definitely looks like the locale of the finale for PoFV, so either Komachi or Eiki will absolutely appear. I'm guessing it'll be like TD- in this case, Stage 1 they'll need to go to Eiki to either get permission to enter Hell, or Hell's on the other side of it, and Eiki's being a blockade until they prove their power. Past that, probably all-new characters. I can't see SA chars appearing, since they're part of Old Hell.

Do note though that Shiki is actually relatively low on the rung of hell's hierarchy and pretty busy with her own work. In VFiS it was implied she hasn't even met Hecatia, and has only heard about her from others. To be honest, there's so little we know about hell - just that it's ruled by the kishin (and even then mostly in name only), is incomprehensibly big, and contains some of the most dangerous entities in any realm. Just about anyone could show up.

[gilde]

I'm hopelessly torn between wanting to see more Ministry of Right and Wrong material and wanting to see completely bonkers new parts of Hell that haven't been mentioned at all yet.
(Although given ZUN's general modus operandi, the Ministry option would probably still involve a bunch of bonkers new stuff that hasn't been mentioned at all yet anyway :V)

The Stage 1 background screams Mount Osore / Sai-no-Kawara imo, particularly the pinwheels

[andykhang]

Do note though that Shiki is actually relatively low on the rung of hell's hierarchy and pretty busy with her own work. In VFiS it was implied she hasn't even met Hecatia, and has only heard about her from others. To be honest, there's so little we know about hell - just that it's ruled by the kishin (and even then mostly in name only), is incomprehensibly big, and contains some of the most dangerous entities in any realm. Just about anyone could show up.

We also know that hell followed what is essentially super-meritocracy, in which the ultra most powerful get to have their way around, and the weak is basically cattle and breeding stock (there would probably be literal slave cow-girl, if ZUN was brave enough)...Come to think of it, wouldn't "Wily Beast and Weakest Creature" applied to the Hell Beast invading as well, and they're essentially foreign refugees running away from the nature disaster that's probably the final boss?

Edited: Like, it's probably likely to be true that Okina and Hecatia was having a silent, under-the-table cooperation (that Hecatia probably have no idea that she have, considering Okina's nature), considering the latest development of the "Fossilize Fairy Incident", in which Okina's incident triggered the event of the fairy running on sleep mode, in which Hecatia immediately come before the protag and offer to bring the fairy back into hell, while Okina lead the remaining one into her back world, essentially clearing Gensokyo out of fairy, in preperation for what coming next that's th17. Considering how Hecatia seriously think that Gensokyo is a nice resort realm, and the fact that not only Okina's incident came just after th15, and that her action directly lead to the fairy fossilization event in which Hecatia finally decided to reveal herself (and also the fact that Okina's symbol as the goddess of the disadvantage), it's likely.

[hyorinryu]

Do note though that Shiki is actually relatively low on the rung of hell's hierarchy and pretty busy with her own work. In VFiS it was implied she hasn't even met Hecatia, and has only heard about her from others. To be honest, there's so little we know about hell - just that it's ruled by the kishin (and even then mostly in name only), is incomprehensibly big, and contains some of the most dangerous entities in any realm. Just about anyone could show up.

Shiki's PC-98 right? Have any other PC-98 people shown up in the mangas?