Bad player seeking advice.

[Tinari]

Hello.  I am what we in the business call a "n00b".  A scrub if you will.

I have never really played or got into SHMUPs before and I first learned of Touhou from being (pause for dramatic effect...) McRolled .  Though it was stupid, the melody of the song had me listening for hours and eventually a few days later through comment scanning I found out it was Flandre's theme.  Ever since then I have made it my goal to get to and fight against Flandre.

So I copped out.  After rage quitting from stupid deaths (Backing into a slow moving bullet when it's the only one one screen as Marisa.  Staring dumbfounded as a bullet literally travels an inch across the screen to hit me while I don't move. Not even KNOWING what killed me some of the times...) I got the high res pack, hitbox patch and a score list that let me play on Extra.  So three tries in I get to Flandre and fight her.  Giddy with excitement and dying to the laser I didn't realize was a laser I was happy and content.  But now I want to actually get somewhat good at the game so I can get to her more consistently.

That said, does anyone have any advice for a player that has inexplicable screw-ups of the most epic-fail level?  I couldn't get to Patchouli for hell but when I GOT to her I died horribly but after the first pass I was able to get through her well enough.  But the stupid mistakes I make constantly are frustrating and I still haven't "learned better" to avoid very stupid mistakes.  Moving INTO bullets.  Not moving away from bullets.  Not bombing.




OH! Side issue.  About bombs.  Is there ANY WAY possible to remap the keys in this damn game?  Seriously... my keyboard has a weird key limit (for anyone familiar with those) which makes it impossible for me to use a bomb if I am shooting, in slowdown and moving.  Which is most of the time during spellcards.  I don't want to think back to how many times I have died because I couldn't bomb.  Literally couldn't.  I've once died a split second after hitting the bomb key five times to no effect.  It's a hard habit to get into to completely release other keys before bombing.  I'd rather just rebind the keys to something that'll work on my laptop.





Any advice on any of this random stuff would be much appreciated.  I basically had a record spinning in my head, dropped the needle and typed whatever came out.  So thanks for listening chiiiildreeeen. Awooooo!

[Sapz]

Hi.

The most important thing to learn for a newbie is to know when you are screwed. This isn't just at the points that make you go 'AHHH HOLY SHIT', but also at the points that make you think 'Hmm... this looks tricky. I wonder if I can do this?' The 'I've beaten this once or twice before... it would be cool if I beat it in an actual run' mentality CAN AND WILL KILL YOU. It still kills me all the time. If you are unsure, BOMB. This will allow you to get much further in almost anything (having said that Flandre is invincible against bombs for most of the battle so you'll need some dodging skill :V).

Also, use and abuse Stage Practice. If something is giving you a hard time, practice that section over and over until you understand it (or you can designate it a spot where you need to bomb if you're lazy like me, but understanding it will save resources).

In terms of the stupid mistakes, you'll just need to play more and get some more experience. Stupid deaths happen to everyone and the only real way of preventing them are general good dodging habits that will kick in when you're not really paying attention.

In terms of EoSD, I would strongly recommend you manage a Normal 1cc of the game on default lives before you attempt to beat Flandre. It'll improve your skills, and a Normal 1cc is far easier than a clear of EoSD Extra. Flandre is tough. Most of her cards are on par with Hard/Lunatic level attacks. I would also recommend against using MarisaA for the 1cc, as she has a really, really hard Patchy fight.

Also, if you haven't already done so, get the vsync patch. Do everything you can to make it work. You may not notice it at first, but it will do wonders for your dodging. It basically removes the input delay from some of the earlier Touhou games, effectively giving you better reaction times. Too tired to explain setting it up, but all the explanations you'll need are in the Tech Support section of the forum.

I have no idea really about the keyboard mapping or the key limit problems. Sorry. :V

Finally, you can't expect gigantic leaps in skill every time you play the game. Take your time, take breaks if you rage, and don't give up. You'll be 1ccing the games left and right in no time.

[LHCling]

Key Remapper.

...

That said, does anyone have any advice for a player that has inexplicable screw-ups of the most epic-fail level?  I couldn't get to Patchouli for hell but when I GOT to her I died horribly but after the first pass I was able to get through her well enough.  But the stupid mistakes I make constantly are frustrating and I still haven't "learned better" to avoid very stupid mistakes.  Moving INTO bullets.  Not moving away from bullets.  Not bombing.

Ah, the mistakes that I made a year ago. Practicing itself (or just playing) should solve the moving into bullets and not moving away from bullets issue. It can be summed up as "poor prediction skills" which just get better the more you play.

Most people can't bomb by reflex (~133ms for most shot types in most games means that you need a really, really good and consistent reflex; with the human average being ~230ms. I myself border around 140-180ms). So you should avoid trying to bomb by reflex altogether. The best way to bomb is to bomb whenever you feel like you're going to get hit. When you become more experienced it all comes down to knowing when you're getting hit, and knowing when you're not going to get hit (e.g. above).

Also, note that memorization is a key factor in certain parts of the games, particularly the Extra Stages.

[Tinari]

Hi.

The most important thing to learn for a newbie is to know when you are screwed. This isn't just at the points that make you go 'AHHH HOLY SHIT', but also at the points that make you think 'Hmm... this looks tricky. I wonder if I can do this?' The 'I've beaten this once or twice before... it would be cool if I beat it in an actual run' mentality CAN AND WILL KILL YOU. It still kills me all the time. If you are unsure, BOMB. This will allow you to get much further in almost anything (having said that Flandre is invincible against bombs for most of the battle so you'll need some dodging skill :V).

Also, use and abuse Stage Practice. If something is giving you a hard time, practice that section over and over until you understand it (or you can designate it a spot where you need to bomb if you're lazy like me, but understanding it will save resources).

In terms of the stupid mistakes, you'll just need to play more and get some more experience. Stupid deaths happen to everyone and the only real way of preventing them are general good dodging habits that will kick in when you're not really paying attention.

In terms of EoSD, I would strongly recommend you manage a Normal 1cc of the game on default lives before you attempt to beat Flandre. It'll improve your skills, and a Normal 1cc is far easier than a clear of EoSD Extra. Flandre is tough. Most of her cards are on par with Hard/Lunatic level attacks. I would also recommend against using MarisaA for the 1cc, as she has a really, really hard Patchy fight.

Also, if you haven't already done so, get the vsync patch. Do everything you can to make it work. You may not notice it at first, but it will do wonders for your dodging. It basically removes the input delay from some of the earlier Touhou games, effectively giving you better reaction times. Too tired to explain setting it up, but all the explanations you'll need are in the Tech Support section of the forum.

I have no idea really about the keyboard mapping or the key limit problems. Sorry. :V

Finally, you can't expect gigantic leaps in skill every time you play the game. Take your time, take breaks if you rage, and don't give up. You'll be 1ccing the games left and right in no time.

The thing about stage practice is that, other than some spells or specifics that murder me hardcore (Strange Art: Misdirection took three lives from me once, where I can almost no-bomb the rest of her cards).  It's always something so random that I can't replicate it through the same level.  Such as Cirno's shotgun blast first spell killing me.   Or getting to Stage 4 with no lives lost, no bombs used and then next game losing three lives by stage 4.

As far as "getting a 1CC on normal" I waived that as part of my prerequisite because I once reached Remilia with two lives, three bombs left.  I died to her first attack, didn't bomb.  I lost another life without using a bomb.  I then USED all my bombs properly and managed to die at her last spellcards last 10%.  I figure if I wasn't stupid, I could have done it.

Typically, I play Reimu B.  Persuasion Needles.  I like 'em.  I'll sometimes go MASATU SPARKU with Marisa but that's just for giggles.  I can't play her because her speed.  She's the reason I run into more bullets.  I guess I gotta work these old fingers into shape.  I've been running through Extra a few times for the hell of it.  I once again inexplicably got to Flandre with two lives, three bombs and managed to die to Cranberry Trap without bombing once.  Go me.

And I'll figure out the VSync.  May as well.  And thank you Baity for the key remapper.  I'll give all this jank a go and see if my skills improve.  Trust me, there HAVE been times when I want to bomb while screaming "OH SHI---!" at my screen while tapping the bomb key STILL ALIVE but no bomb was to be had.  Keyboard limitations make playing fighting games hard too. :|  Thanks again.


*edit*

It appears I can't run the VSync patch at all.  I guess I'll have to go to the tech support forums later.  Oh well.

*edit edit*

Keyscan verified it.  If I am holding Z, shift and the left arrow key, it locks out my X key.  However I am using keymapper to make X my C key now.  I can hold all directional arrows, Z C and Shift all at once with no issues.  We'll see if I can happily bomb now.

*edit edit edit*

Bombing more frequently makes me feel like I am panic bombing more... which is fine and dandy.  It has turned my AVERAGE game up in % actually.  On Extra I am getting to 35-40% more often.  When I try to go without bombing as much (my usual) I'll die a few times out at 18%, 24% or so, but I've managed to hit 44% doing so.  Luck and growing skills, I guess....

[Herasy]

It appears I can't run the VSync patch at all.  I guess I'll have to go to the tech support forums later.  Oh well.

My patch only works when I run it in Applocale, also you need to have the game exe renamed to it's original name (japanese filename or something like th6/th06)

[Bananamatic]

It appears I can't run the VSync patch at all.  I guess I'll have to go to the tech support forums later.  Oh well.

My patch only works when I run it in Applocale, also you need to have the game exe renamed to it's original name (japanese filename or something like th6/th06)

And the path to the game folder can't have any special characters. Took me a month to figure it out.

[Tinari]

My patch only works when I run it in Applocale, also you need to have the game exe renamed to it's original name (japanese filename or something like th6/th06)

If anything REQUIRES Japanese language support or Applocale, it's dead to me.  My PC, I kid you not, actively rejects it.  I did rename it to it's Japanese name I think.  Someone had noted that and gave a copy/paste of what it should be so I copy/pasted and renamed my exe to 東方紅魔郷.exe

And the path to the game folder can't have any special characters. Took me a month to figure it out.

I copied the folder to my root directory to test this.  It still won't run.  Chances are it REQUIRES Applocale/Japanese language support therefore it is impossible for me to use Vsync.  Oh well.

[nintendonut888]

A tip on death bombing: Don't think you can activate a death bomb by reacting to getting hit. You simply will not be able to press the button after hearing the sound in time. To be honest...I'm not sure how I death bomb so well. All I know is that unless I'm actively trying to do something without bombing or walls form very quickly, I almost never die with bombs. Still, the fact is that it seems to happen naturally, which frustrates me because I want to help other people learn to do it so well.

I suppose the best way to think of a death bomb is less of a save and more of a margin of error. If you see a bullet and you know for a fact you will not dodge it in time, bomb before it hits you. I BELIEVE this is how I death bomb so often: Because I think of it as a regular bomb activated when a bullet is about to hit you. Still...I surprise myself sometimes.

Now that I think about it, this is inappropriate for a newbie. ;>_> Okay, bombs: Use them. Don't use them as soon as you see something crazy and freak out (known as "panic-bombing"), don't bomb a spell card because it just killed you (a habit I myself had for a long time), but use them when things get hairy and you don't have confidence that you can dodge it.

I see nobody's covered streaming. I'll do the honors then:

Streaming is a very fundamental concept in Touhou that you need to learn to even stand a chance. Picture this: A bullet is aimed directly at your position. Such a bullet is no threat, for you can simply tap once left or right and it'll completely miss you. The part many people don't seem to realize is that it makes no difference if there's one or a hundred aimed at you at once, because they can all be dodged with a simple tap. The act of dodging aimed bullets via small movements is streaming. There are a TON of streamable areas in Touhou, in EoSD alone. Example: Much of the first half of stage 4. When the books fire three pronged waves of bullets at you, they can be dodged by simply moving a bit to the left or right.

Important tip: When an attack is streaming, move as little as possible. It's like a boa constrictor: The more you move the harder it is to escape, because you're taking an aimed attack and tossing it in random directions.

Anyway, I hope that helped you.

[Tinari]

Important tip: When an attack is streaming, move as little as possible. It's like a boa constrictor: The more you move the harder it is to escape, because you're taking an aimed attack and tossing it in random directions.

Anyway, I hope that helped you.

I think I just figured the out tonight while doing EX runs.  I didn't know it was "streaming" persay but I realized I could make them shoot where I was and move slightly away.  It also helps with grazes! I think it's Rumia's Demarcation spell that I got 300 grazes on normal when I realized it wasn't as random as I thought.  I was bored and rage-quit but kept coming back so I did a lot of Rumia... so many deaths.


And about bombing after dying.  I call that rage bombing.  I just hit bomb and look up their skirt and shoot them while cursing my lack of bombing.

[nintendonut888]

But you see, this does not help you at all. Unless you REALLY screwed up or it's a few certain spell cards, you can end it without bombing again. Wasting a bomb like that just puts you another step closer to death.

[8lue Wizard]

Wasting a bomb like that just puts you another step closer to death.

Not if you're not using all your bombs before you die. For me, one mistake usually leads to another; I'm in the (bad) habit of moving up to autocollect the stuff I dropped when I die, which messes up certain patterns, sometimes I'll misjudge just how long I'm invincible afted death, stuff like that. So when I bomb just after dying, even though not rage-driven, it's usually not wasted.

BTW, my first PCB 1cc normal started with a rage bomb.

[Krimmydoodle]

I assume at this point, all you have is EoSD.  Try to grab the other games, if you can, and diversify yourself.  Playing the other games will introduce you to new patterns, and further familarize yourself with the common patterns (such as streaming, as donut mentioned above).  Of key importance is the eighth game in the series, Imperishable Night, which offers the Spell Practice mode.  This allows you to take IN's spellcards into individual practice without having to play the stage portions or full boss fights.  Collecting the spellcards and taking the time to capture them all is a good (and addictingly fun) way for a new player to solidify a foundation of skill for taking on bosses.

If you are unsure, BOMB.

bomb whenever you feel like you're going to get hit.

bombs: Use them.

The above is important.  We've all had so many runs ruined by losing 3 bombs (or, god forbid, 4+ bombs) by dying with them in stock.  Don't use them in a wasteful manner, but they're better used rather than left behind on your rotting corpse because you were overconfident in tackling a pattern.  Look at it this way.  In a full run of EoSD, you'll get 8 lives and 29 bombs, allowing you to make 37 mistakes in total.  If you die with 3 bombs in stock, you just made 4 mistakes-worth of error.  4 mistakes, 10% of your margin of error, gone, in an instant.  Those 3 bombs can drag you through a good chunk of stage or a boss fight.  That one death can be the difference between reaching Remilia, or conquering Remilia.

I need to stop being overdramatic with this, but it's true.

[moozooh]

Aside from bombing and streaming, there are two more fundamental things to learn.

1. Never look directly at your hitbox unless you're dodging a very tight attack. Expand your peripheral vision and scan upper areas of the screen for sources of attacks. This is actually easier when your hitbox isn't visible so it doesn't catch your eye all the time. You can use your shot as a marker for horizontal position. It will dramatically increase your "reaction time" because, well, you'll have more time to react to an attack you've spotted from half a screen away. Besides, you never have to look at your hitbox when tap-dodging if you move at proper speed.

2. When dodging, never look directly at bullets. This will make you hit them way more often because you are focused on their location/trajectory instead of the location/trajectory you ought to move in (if you ever drove a bicycle/motorcycle you should know what I'm talking about). Look at spaces free of bullets. It takes time to relearn, but when this stuff kicks in, it does wonders to your dodging abilities.

[Hawk]

I'll put forth the unpopular opinion:

Don't start with EoSD because it's the hardest in the series.

I 1CC'd UFO Hard, but I can barely get to stage 5 in EoSD Hard.  I honestly believe it's harder than SA, since SA is so micromemorizable.  The only two Extra stages I haven't beaten are Flandre and Koishi.  I can't beat Koishi because the stage kills me and you get most of your lives during the Koishi fight; I can't beat Flandre because she's really fucking hard.  There's something to be said for the "School of Hard Knocks", but if you never have any victories...

IN's the easiest, and it has Spell Practice.  Some say it will screw up your death bombing, but, even if that's true, I feel it's a small price to pay for the expedited learning rate.

[Seian Verian]

I'll put forth the unpopular opinion:

Don't start with EoSD because it's the hardest in the series.

I 1CC'd UFO Hard, but I can barely get to stage 5 in EoSD Hard.  I honestly believe it's harder than SA, since SA is so micromemorizable.  The only two Extra stages I haven't beaten are Flandre and Koishi.  I can't beat Koishi because the stage kills me and you get most of your lives during the Koishi fight; I can't beat Flandre because she's really fucking hard.  There's something to be said for the "School of Hard Knocks", but if you never have any victories...

IN's the easiest, and it has Spell Practice.  Some say it will screw up your death bombing, but, even if that's true, I feel it's a small price to pay for the expedited learning rate.

Funny, I personally found EoSD to be really easy compared to SA and UFO... Really, really easy >.< The only games I've 1cc\d on Normal are PCB, EoSD, and MoF... In that order. EoSD probably has one of the easiest (if not the outright easiest) Easy modes in the Windows series, if only for the fact that its Easy doesn't have a stage 6...

[Bananamatic]

EoSD was my first Hard 1cc..... :V
With vsync and hitbox patch though.

[Arcengal]

I'll put forth the unpopular opinion:

Don't start with EoSD because it's the hardest in the series.

I 1CC'd UFO Hard, but I can barely get to stage 5 in EoSD Hard.

Conversely, I currently can't get past Stage 4 in a Hard 1cc attempt at UFO, but I can normally 1cc EoSD hard like it's nothing.

I think it's UFO > SA > EoSD > IN > PCB > MoF in terms of overall difficulty.

[Tinari]

I guess it's worth noting I have them all.  Everything.  I simply limit myself to EoSD and the fighting games until I 1CC EoSD normally or at least get my fix on Flandre + theme.

Also, on recommendation I fired up Imperisable Night to try the spellcard practice mode and it's not unlocked right from the get go apparently.  So I played once and got to and beat Wriggle and I must say, THE RESPONSE TIMES... holy hell the response time of the buttons.  I didn't realize how much a difference it made and now it makes me pine for an english "vsync" patch...

[nintendonut888]

You can run the vsynch patch with the English patch. Just rename your English version to what the Japanese version was. For example, the file name for the Japanese version of PCB should be th07, and the patched version th07e. To make the Vsynch patch work with the English patch, change the Japanese version to something random, and change th07e to th07. Then running the vsynch patch will make it run with the English version.

[Tinari]

You can run the vsynch patch with the English patch. Just rename your English version to what the Japanese version was. For example, the file name for the Japanese version of PCB should be th07, and the patched version th07e. To make the Vsynch patch work with the English patch, change the Japanese version to something random, and change th07e to th07. Then running the vsynch patch will make it run with the English version.

It requires japanese language support to use the vsync patch.  Therefore it will not run on my system.  Period.

I went ahead and did exactly as you stated just to verify and i was correct.  It just will not run.  I am no slouch with computer knowledge either so please take my word for it.  It won't work on this computer.

[Esoterica]

I think it's UFO > SA > EoSD > IN > PCB > MoF in terms of overall difficulty.

I completely support this list.

EDIT: Actually, I think IN's easier than PCB, thanks to loleasy stage 5 boss, ridiculously long deathbomb times, and a better spread of shot types.

Plus, no PCB stage 4 (though IN's stage 4 isn't much better if you end up fighting Marisa).

[JoonK]

Start with EoSD, the kinda janky hitboxes on bullets and yourself make you more adept at dodging through patterns. not fitting in between gaps like PCB sometimes does.

To sound like a broken record. Bomb, never leave bombs in stock when you die. Only later games have cards that screw you over when you bomb (Virtue of Wind God, Flying Fantastica).

Streaming is a VERY IMPORTANT SKILL.
PCB Extra and Phantasm are six billion percent streaming. But you should save that for after EoSD, unless you are completely beat.

Once you keep playing, you eventually get a "vision" of your field, and where to look during certain bullet patterns. Half-decent players will almost never make their hitbox the center of their vision. That simply wastes half of your vision on nothing that pertains to the bullets coming at you, if you are at the bottom of the screen.

Good luck!

[hiddenryuu]

Yes, definitely start by trying to 1cc EoSD normal first.  (even if it is with 5 lives) It'll teach you some of the important parts of the game that is better learned in regular stages.

and yes, definitely bomb more , and then some. Knowing exactly what you can get away with and can't takes quite awhile. Good bombing will make sure you get there.

Planning your bombs will also increase your chances of success. If you know you can't pass a pattern bomb it. Less risk you take the better.

[theshirn]

It requires japanese language support to use the vsync patch.  Therefore it will not run on my system.  Period.

You shouldn't need AppLocale to get PCB's vsync patch running...I didn't...

Anyway, advice:  Watch the area around you, not the bullets, and not your character.  Keep your eyes at least half an inch above your sprite at almost all times.  It may take a while, but learning to read patterns and bullets is THE key to victory in Touhou.  I've come a VERY long way in only a year (yet I still suck).

[Tsym]

I would also advise you to avoid streaming when unnecessary when you start out.  EoSD leads to some bad habits in this regard because I feel that a lot of the early attacks are aimed at you, which invites you to stream them.  Also try to figure out how to do stages/sections by yourself.  Looking at high and even some mid-high level replays can lead to bad habits.

Also, I think that whenever you start playing a game, start by playing Stages 1-2 (or even 3) on Hard instead of Normal.  The jump in difficulty for the early stages is usually pretty big (well Normal -> Hard is a big jump anyway, but it's really noticeable for the first few stages), and it gets you more practice in just dodging.  When you can do Stages 1-3 50% of the time on Hard, then you can go back to Normal and see how easy it is .

Oh, and try to stick with ReimuB.  A simple bomb + slow movement speed + fairly strong attack = good fun.  Her persuasion needle attack type is also the best attack type in most Touhou games where you can choose her.

In EoSD there are a lot of safespots, but try not to use them yet because they don't really do anything to help you.  On a similar note, after you unlock stage practice, play through the stage, but instead of focusing on surviving, focus on the spell card patterns to see if there's anything interesting you can find about certain attacks/stage patterns/spell cards.  Cirno's opening (if you don't use the safespot), becomes fairly trivial when you see how it works, and same with Misdirection.

[Tinari]

Woo!

So a bit of this general advice I have been using has helped. Rebinding my keys so I have the C key as my bomb key has made improvements in my ability to bomb.  Being unable to bomb when moving left was hurting.  I have 1CC EoSD now once with Reimu B.  Good fun.


On a slightly unrelated note, I was playing Extra as Marisa B for giggles when I was at a friends house and quite tipsy.  It was the furthest I had ever gotten.  I got halfway into Flandre's Lavetien before I had lost.  An hour later I tried again when I was no longer sober and those were embarrassing, so I saved all the replays... fun night.

Thanks everyone for any advice given.  I still have found no way to run the vsync patch on my PC and having played around on TH08 a little has really made me realize just how big a difference it was.  I felt Imperishable Night was just running that much faster... it just feels faster because of the quick movements.  I want. :p