INVASION! (Game Over, Nobody Wins)

[Suwako Moriya]

I would post more but uhh... nothing has really changed today.  Only thing to say isn't really internally related - in five days of active game, Angel Milk has essentially one post.  That really oughta be modkill territory, not prod territory.  If not modkilled, I still think that's the best lynch today, otherwise I'm down with Anthony or Serpentarius or any of the other people that make my head ache.  I don't think "stupid townie mistakes" defenses fly here; since the scum team dropped the ball day 1 it seems reasonable to assume that they're pretty bad and/or not playing too hard.

The real danger comes in the possibility of one good scum throwing all their buddies to the winds here, but that's something we'll have to deal with lategame if the situation arises.

I considered a modkill of Angel Milk, but he is technically staying within the bounds of activity.  As my solutions are somewhat final, I will leave it to the players to decide what to do with him unless absolutely necessary.

[Kilgamayan]

So Serp continues to fight the idea of using a scum flip to scumhunt and completely misses the point on the sudden Suwako train - the fact that no other case was pushed by anyone anywhere else (aside from VGT's pointless Seniwac vote).

Yeah I'm pretty comfortable leaving my vote where it is.

[Affinity]

@Suwako:

What happened to the pesco case?

[Suwako Moriya]

Dropped, like bad beginning of day 1 cases should be, why are you so obsessed with it?

[Kitten4u]

@Serp
How would an Angel Milk lynch give us any more info than a Suwako lynch would? 

[Hououin Kyouma]

I need to be replaced

Good thing nothing seriously big happen

I don't know if I should post this but I think Rou is a cop for these following reasons. First of all he voted for Seniwac who isn't playing anymore which might mean that Edible gave out Seniwac instead of Sodium who is his replacement. Secondly he could have voted someone who is much more scummy yet he didn't. Also he was the first one to post on the second day. If my calculation are correct then Sodium should be scum.

##Vote:Sodium

Suwako: I found you and VtG equally suspicious. If somehow you got lynched and you were a townie and VtG survived I would have voted for VtG.

Also what do you have to say about a scum being lynched on the first day? Personally I never thought it would happen >_>

[Pesco]

Dropped, like bad beginning of day 1 cases should be, why are you so obsessed with it?

Speak up. I can't hear you over the silence.

[Affinity]

First of all he voted for Seniwac who isn't playing anymore which might mean that Edible gave out Seniwac instead of Sodium who is his replacement.

What the hell are you talking about.  Look at any votecount on D2.  Any. 

---

Dropped, like bad beginning of day 1 cases should be, why are you so obsessed with it?

Won't take that as an answer.  For what reason?  Seeing that you stuck so closely on it on D1 and had the guts to call every other single case on D1 stupid makes me think that you have a seemingly very strong justification for your vote on D1.  Also, just because he was on the VGT bandwagon doesn't cut it because, uh, you are still suspicious of Kilga.

[Hououin Kyouma]

First of all he voted for Seniwac who isn't playing anymore which might mean that Edible gave out Seniwac instead of Sodium who is his replacement.

What the hell are you talking about.  Look at any votecount on D2.  Any. 

##Vote: Eliphas/Seniwac/Whatever His Name Is Right Now

>_>

[Suwako Moriya]

... okay, but seriously now, Angel's getting modkilled right?  It's not possible to have a fair replacement this far into the game with town taking these attitudes.

For what reason did I drop it?  Uh, are you serious?  We have a scum flip. 

[Affinity]

Vote Count: Curiouser and curiouser?
Anthony (4) - Kiro, Pesco, Kitten4U, Affinity
Serpentarius (2) - Kilgamayan, Zakeri
Angel Milk (2) - Suwako Moriya, Sodium
Roukanken (1) - UncertainKitten
Suwako Moriya (1) - Serpentarius
Sodium (1) - Roukanken

Not voting: Anthony, Nietz, Angel Milk

48 hours or so remain.

---

@Suwako:

Then why didn't you drop the one against Kilga?  You had a scum flip.

[Pesco]

Alright, as for how I'd order Suwako, Angel Milk, and Anthony, I should also point out that if Suwako flips scum, then we'll have confirmation that late D1, the other scum were basically faced with a choice of which scumbuddy to bus, which will change the way we need to look at all their actions.  It wouldn't clear anyone, but if he is scum, then we're basically chasing shadows and falling for scum's WIFOM game by looking for who jumped on his wagon late.

However, if Angel Milk is scum, that would virtually clear Suwako, and sink my theory.  So, as far as infolynches go, Angel Milk is superior to Suwako.  Furthermore, what Suwako has been doing explicitly and openly, Angel Milk has been doing covertly.  I guess I wouldn't expect Angel Milk to consciously decide to play that way, but I wouldn't expect anyone to consciously try that gambit in the first place, and I suppose I could see Angel Milk's scumbuddies telling him to lie low and avoid saying anything incriminating, which he could well interpret as saying nothing at all. :V

As for where Anthony fits into this, I think Kiro's making a mountain out of a molehill regarding the early fiasco with VgameT's recollection of an old game.  Looks more like a three stooges reenactment than a chainsaw defense.  His decision to wait for "better proof" in 200 looks bad, but is consistent with his newbish mindset, and even if Suwako were town, his vote in 253 could just be bad judgement.  Pretty much all of his reasoning is horrible, which means it's hard to discern whether his points are coming from a town or a scum perspective, but that just makes him a viable policy lynch.

Kilga already provided a perfectly clear reason as to why Suwako can be considered cleared. My speculation on the matter is that we lynched goon, the other train if it was a bus, would have to have also been on a goon. But that would raise the question of why bus a (subjectively) better player and keep the weaker one around.

The only info we are getting out of lynching Tenshi is on Suwako. Assuming Suwako as town, a TownTenshi flip adds discredit, a point which you are not mentioning and taking into consideration before us.

Why is Anthony asking for better proof consistent with a newbie mindset? This only indicates hesitance, it has nothing to do with skill level. As I see it, more evidence was brought forth on VgT than Suwako. If he was really voting according to evidence, he should not have been jumping on Suwako as a swing vote (he was 5th when the wagons were tied at 4 each).

With this, I'll endorse a Serp lynch if Anthony doesn't hang.

Pesco: I've already mentioned that I don't have much of my D1 case left on him. I still don't like so much the way he played so far, but he's not on

I don't like the way you've been playing either. I wasn't the only one.

I don't like how Rou is talking about '4 straight votes' on Suwako from an outsider's point of view when, uhh, in fact he has been the first one to vote Suwako anyways.  Previous post really just screams arrogance and echoing what Kilga said blindly without any real analysis on his part of the story at all.  Considering this post he made, where he questions why Suwako is town, makes his views seem ephremeral and contradictory.  Using that to question Serp is also quite bad of him.

This. I already mentioned here that Rou's vote had the kickstart effect. I'll say now that I tend to give Rou more slack due to personal knowledge of him, that prompted me to say this.  Without the personal bias, Rou should die.

I need to be replaced

Good thing nothing seriously big happen

I don't know if I should post this but I think Rou is a cop for these following reasons. First of all he voted for Seniwac who isn't playing anymore which might mean that Edible gave out Seniwac instead of Sodium who is his replacement. Secondly he could have voted someone who is much more scummy yet he didn't. Also he was the first one to post on the second day. If my calculation are correct then Sodium should be scum.

##Vote:Sodium

Suwako: I found you and VtG equally suspicious. If somehow you got lynched and you were a townie and VtG survived I would have voted for VtG.

Also what do you have to say about a scum being lynched on the first day? Personally I never thought it would happen >_>

You are a

Spoiler:

******* ******

. I know you are capable of reading. SO. BLOODY. WELL. DO. IT.

Requesting Alice makes a cameo appearance to berate someone.

... okay, but seriously now, Angel's getting modkilled right?  It's not possible to have a fair replacement this far into the game with town taking these attitudes.

For what reason did I drop it?  Uh, are you serious?  We have a scum flip. 

Answer Affinity. You've been just as bad as Anthony and Tenshi, that's a pretty big disappointment considering who you are.

[ES-Anthy]

First off I'm sticking with Angel Milk lynch due to just not trying, as I have said before, also just to quickly bring something up,

Overall the whole Tenshi/Angel Milk lurking entirely on day 1 and how it's going so far just bugs me to the point of me thinking he is scummy, but I'm not 100% sure with Rou's statment.

##Vote: Angel Milk

and

Ok now, everyone is taking my opinion on Vgt, which was basically just me saying it was in a way, a crap case, then later saying it was at least decent, but then I felt more for suwako being scummy, which to me doesn't exactly look like a huge attempt at defending someone.

Now to actually state my case on angel milk better due to the fact that I was lazy before, I was voting angel milk due to the fact of the lack of posting so far, which that, combined with not being night killed shows that there is a possibility of angel milk being scum, since personally I wouldn't leave someone alone if they were being slient like this, so overall he just looks really scummy to me, also since my vote wasn't counted before, might as well put it up again.

##Vote:Angel Milk

The whole thing with me backing off of someone due to Rou's posts are mostly because I'm just trying to take that into account, which I am failing at, nothing more, nothing less.

Right now when looking this over, my go at suwako on D1 was a stupid idea, because from this standpoint it just shows more of a town look than scum, so suwako is clean by my look, especially since suwako is actually making some sense to me.

Overall, the people who look like scum to me are Angel milk due to silence and not getting night killed,and the only other one is pesco, just a gut feeling which I guess isn't really a good reason.

So yea, I'm focused on an Angel Milk lynch.

and my driving point for why I put these here

Vote Count: More Totally Unnecessary, Yet Completely Accurate Vote Counts
Anthony (4) - Kiro, Pesco, Kitten4U, Affinity
Angel Milk (3) - Suwako Moriya, Sodium, Serpentarius
Serpentarius (2) - Kilgamayan, Zakeri
Roukanken (1) - UncertainKitten
Sodium (1) - Roukanken

Not voting: Anthony, Nietz, Angel Milk

because for some reason my vote isn't being counted so please notice it this time

##Vote: Angel Milk

and now to actually make reasoning out of all of this, Suwako is already cleared to me due to overall actions recently, while I just would prefer getting rid of Angel Milk due to overall inactivity and lack of even trying to scumhunt, which I know seems hypocritical of myself, but I'm at least trying here (and from your reactions failing at it), the Serp case in my eye looks like a decent case due to the starting of it based on serp going at Suwako based on a D1 case, which in previous posts, has been mentioned to be a lackluster reason, which is making Serp second on my list.

[FinnKaenbyou]

Firstly, the fact that Angel Milk was late on the Suwako wagon - since a VgameT lynch was looking more plausible, and if he really did have a choice between bussing him or Suwako

This is still running off of the premise that the lynches yesterday didn't, y'know, already clear Suwako.

Plus VgT had been the leading lynch for almost the whole day, so saying his lynch looked more plausible doesn't make sense.

Only three votes - yours was there in the first place, though you confirmed it after Suwako's post.  And let me put it this way: When you saw Suwako's post, the first thing you did was decide that he was scummiest.  If you can excuse yourself doing so, then why do you think it's strange for three more people, among those who saw it in between your post and UncertainKitten's combo breaker, to decide that it made Suwako scummiest too?

Was it bad enough to earn my vote for the sake of creating some sort of pressure on him? Yes. Was it bad enough for people to suddenly disregard secondary suspects like Nietz and Pesco and suddenly reduce Day 1 to a 2-lynch race? No.

Furthermore, pesco is right in that Rou hasn't really been scumhunting.  More of passive questioning and defending, and the content he puts out is disproportionate to the number of posts he made.  Also, absolutely no comment on Sodium's suspicion list and such, making the vote seem like a placeholder for opportunistic jumping.  All of this, added on to UK's case, as well as the very hypocrtical 'scumhunt like I do' prod to Sodium makes him very suspicious and worthy of vote.

The two people I've been trying to question - Sodium and Zak - have said more or less NOTHING, so obviously I can't contribute.
Sodium's list did nothing to change my opinion, since it seemed hastily put together and introduced nothing new, and since then he's been doing very little other than reporting and asking people to post. Zak has thrown a vote on Serp today and done absolutely nothing else.

I don't know if I should post this but I think Rou is a cop for these following reasons.

1. All of these reasons make no sense.
2. Even if they did, WHY THE HELL WOULD YOU OUTRIGHT TELL THE MAFIA WHO YOU THINK IS A POWER ROLE?
3. HOW DOES THIS HELP US FIND SCUM IN ANY WAY?

I already mentioned here that Rou's vote had the kickstart effect. I'll say now that I tend to give Rou more slack due to personal knowledge of him, that prompted me to say this.  Without the personal bias, Rou should die.

I intend to defend this point, because it makes sense. At the time I voted him to create some sort of pressure, but the response was too strong to be targeting a scum, especially since there was already VgT receiving several votes. I don't understand why being first on the wagon immediately makes me unable to say that people jumped on the wagon too quickly for my liking.

Zak needs to say something. Sodium needs to post less useless crap. Now I need to run to my first lecture, so yeah. >_>

[Kiro]

Rou: Regarding your #384, I am agreeing that you as Scum would have no idea that pushing for a Town Suwako lynch from scratch would actually lead to anything no matter what Suwako had said. To try to set up a mislynch to counter the VgT wagon, it would be easier for Scum Rou to hype up one of the existing cases that had 2 or so votes on them already. I don't see why Scum couldn't have gone for one of the already established wagons which is why I'm thinking the earlier Suwako votes may have been from Townies. Unless some of the other prominent Day 1 wagons were also Scum, but that info will be considered later.

The point VgT made in #53 is him saying that someone buckling under questioning has happened before putting doubt on whether it's really that strong of a scumtell. Then he waffles a bit and says that it was Scum doing it. I just feel the whole intent of this post was to try to get people to slow down on the votes and doubt whether the case on Anthony was a good idea or not. So I'm seeing it as a partial defense of Anthony. The other option was to remain silent on the issue which would probably have served him better given this whole thing was what led to his Day 1 lynch. And for my personal amusement, "Except you were on the other side," actually could be a VgT scum slip in saying that Rou's actually Town in this game as opposed to the godfather in WTC Mafia. *shrug*

---

Anthony should reevaluate his cases if Angel Milk is going to either be replaced or modkilled. I'd like to hear what he says and whether he will pursue his gut suspicion on Pesco more.

---

Regarding Serp:

Making cases from scum flips is great when it's an available option, but when someone goes out of his way to make that technique impossible to use against him, I think that's strong evidence in itself.

Really? Is that what you're seeing after the VgT flip? That pretty much is ignoring said flip as it assumes Suwako is guilty regardless of alignment when VgT's alignment should have some bearing on Suwako's given their wagons ran side by side. In essence, you made up your mind since before Day 1 ended. That's not what I expected you to say as Town.

His decision to wait for "better proof" in 200 looks bad, but is consistent with his newbish mindset, and even if Suwako were town, his vote in 253 could just be bad judgement.  Pretty much all of his reasoning is horrible, which means it's hard to discern whether his points are coming from a town or a scum perspective, but that just makes him a viable policy lynch.

Is that you talking about Angel Milk or about Anthony?

Spoiler:

It's Anthony, but it sure looks like it could be referring to Angel Milk.

Tell me again how Angel Milk is first and Anthony is 3rd on your preferred lynch order? If you're saying for information purposes, Angel Milk is better than Suwako, wouldn't an Anthony scum flip also lead to the same conclusion about Suwako? The first part of your #418 is also interchangable between Angel Milk and Anthony. This looks like pretty poor prioritization as there's more actual evidence of Anthony's to sort through and should outweigh Angel Milk's now-confirmed apathy for this game. In essence, I don't see how you think Angel Milk is more likely to be Scum than Anthony.

Cut by Anthony: Edible missing your vote once could be mod error. Missing it twice is far less likely to be an error. If Edible doesn't clear it in the next votecount, I'm guessing a power role is in effect here. Frankly, I don't think it makes a difference in your innocence or not. If such power role were Townie, it could be because they think you're Scum and don't want you voting for what would likely be a Townie. Similarly, Scum with such a role could just be trying to WIFOM everyone into thinking that they wouldn't use it one of their own. The entire Scum team is never required to be on a mislynch wagon as it reduces the number of arising mislynch possibilities. And I see Serp is now #2 on your list. Any new thoughts about Pesco?

[Affinity]

@Roukanken:

[Q&UOTE]The two people I've been trying to question - Sodium and Zak - have said more or less NOTHING, so obviously I can't contribute.[/QUOTE]

For the latter, yes, I understand, but Sodium has been questioning Kitten4u himself and I don't think that can be passed off as 'duhh nothing' without any comment.  He is doing more than you are doing, in my opinion, and you just ignored what he did without any further explanation. 

Was it bad enough for people to suddenly disregard secondary suspects like Nietz and Pesco and suddenly reduce Day 1 to a 2-lynch race? No.

Haven't YOU disregarded secondary suspects like Nietz and Pesco and haven't YOU suddenly reduced Day 1 to a 2-lynch race in part by not, say, unvoting if you thought that the pressure was going out of control?  And if you think that way, why aren't YOU questioning the people on the bandwagon yesterday as having disregarded these secondary suspects like me and... yourself?  This admission makes it seem as if you never really thought that Suwako was scummy enough to be lynched and if so, why didn't you unvote in favour of someone else? 

People (townies at least), vote for the people they think are scummy and I thought that Suwako was the scummiest then.  So the 'there are other people' defense doesn't count it and makes it seem as if you are playing from a scum point of view.

I don't understand why being first on the wagon immediately makes me unable to say that people jumped on the wagon too quickly for my liking.

Again, why didn't you unvote, etc.

Tripping over your own statements like this is rather telling on you; you seem to be giving everyone the impression of activity when you are not.  Thus, you are now my preferred lynch for today.

---

If Angel Milk is going to be replaced, I would like to see what Serp and Anthony have to say.

[ES-Anthy]

Overall, if Angel Milk is modkilled or replaced, then I would probably shift over to serp due to my previous reasoning of how so far it looks like serp is going on a case that was on D1, my gut feeling on Pesco was due to him, and several others stating my opinion on Vgt back on D1 as an actual attempt at a serious defense, when it was a simple opinion of it just looking like a bad case, so overall it's just people making it seem like it's more than what it was intended to be, trying to link me to Vgt

[Pesco]

If Serp was second on your list, why did you not mention it earlier? Why do you only agree now, when those points on him were so old.

[Kilgamayan]

Requesting Alice makes a cameo appearance to berate someone.

Alice has told me that he'd love to fill in but does not have the time to devote to the game.

I'm half tempted to ask Carthrat to fill in but, to be honest, I agree with Suwako on the fairness of replacement to the other players at this juncture given Tenshi's performance so far. :|

[FinnKaenbyou]

For the latter, yes, I understand, but Sodium has been questioning Kitten4u himself and I don't think that can be passed off as 'duhh nothing' without any comment.  He is doing more than you are doing, in my opinion, and you just ignored what he did without any further explanation.

This post is all the questioning he does, and it's more for the sake of clarification than anything. Pretty much everything else he's posted so far is IIoA.

Haven't YOU disregarded secondary suspects like Nietz and Pesco and haven't YOU suddenly reduced Day 1 to a 2-lynch race in part by not, say, unvoting if you thought that the pressure was going out of control?

Strawman. Why am I responsible for regulating the lynches given that I was only the first vote on Suwako, and therefore wasn't responsible for the votes that came afterwards? Unless you're accusing me of pulling up the Suwako wagon from scratch, anyway.
Besides, by that time there was now a good deal of pressure on Suwako, and removing my vote at that time would've led people to believe I was trying to start a wagon and then disassociate myself with it when it got hot.

And if you think that way, why aren't YOU questioning the people on the bandwagon yesterday as having disregarded these secondary suspects like me and... yourself?

The two main people I've been trying to question on it are Zak and Sodium, third and fourth on the wagon. Except Zak has said absolutely NOTHING and Sodium has opted for the 'it wasn't me I can't possibly explain it' defense.

Affinity's sudden tunnelling on me is somewhat disturbing, but at least he's active. Meanwhile, I'm taking this opportunity to call out Zak on his complete and utter lack of existence today. Especially since he was another of the big arguers for the Suwako lynch, and he was very awkwardly placed on Suwako's wagon. Given that he was so talkative yesterday, what happened to him?

[WHMZakeri]

Zak - Possibly also a throwaway vote, but I recall Zak being more proactive about pushing Suwako prior to the vote. Though, I question why he chose to vote Suwako after all when he mentions a lot of agreeing with the case on VgT.

because, we felt we had not properly looked into VgT. A Vote for him from us would be considered as "mindless bandwagoning" which we do not feel helps the town. We understood there was a case and were happy that it not only went through but was true. Unfortunately, there's absolutely nothing we can say about this to relieve suspicion.

We still generally look bitter towards Suwako's views on opinion giving, but after the realization that he can't be apart of the mafia, we have accepted it into our playstyle.

Zak: Is that seriously all you're going to say on the matter? Really? No other opinions at all? T_T

Giving opinions on others without vote doesn't seem to do us any good, so we're content right now to give reason and opinion on the one we are voting. Take the above suspicion on our mention but not vote on VgT as an example of this.

Question for Zakeri - looking back over D1, you seemed relatively accepting of pretty much every suggested lynch. You say here that Suwako, Anthony and VgT are all scummy. Why, then, did you choose Suwako over the other two, and were there any serious lynch suggestions yesterday that you didn't agree with? :/

Well, we didn't agree with UncertainKitten's Lynch.
A Large part of our resulting vote may just have been because of the bitter feeling towards what Suwako seemed to have been saying yesterday. In all we were fine with any of the lynches we suggested in that post, less fine with UK and people not mentioned in that post

Making cases from scum flips is great when it's an available option,

Great! Why are you not, then?

but when someone goes out of his way to make that technique impossible to use against him, I think that's strong evidence in itself.

Except it would be a very, very inept mafia to assume that they would let themselves into a lose-lose situation like "Half the people on one scum, half of the people on the other."

Unless you think that's exactly what they were going for, which falls on the wrong side of WiFoM.

The switch to Angel looks like a backtrack disguised as a town move. We don't see how Angel's flip could clear Suwako independently of the running trains theory. We feel like you tried to shoehorn "Info-lynch" as a keyword in there. The suggestion of the relationship between Suwako and Angel seems superficial, since it stands to reason that scum were not voting for VgT yesterday if they could have helped it.

[Pesco]

Requesting Alice makes a cameo appearance to berate someone.

Alice has told me that he'd love to fill in but does not have the time to devote to the game.

I'm half tempted to ask Carthrat to fill in but, to be honest, I agree with Suwako on the fairness of replacement to the other players at this juncture given Tenshi's performance so far. :|

Not replace. Just come in and say "<Person> is a fucking retard"

[FinnKaenbyou]

So after much, MUCH pressing, Zak finally emerges.

because, we felt we had not properly looked into VgT. A Vote for him from us would be considered as "mindless bandwagoning" which we do not feel helps the town. We understood there was a case and were happy that it not only went through but was true. Unfortunately, there's absolutely nothing we can say about this to relieve suspicion.

So...in other words, supporting a wagon isn't okay if you have nothing new to bring to the table against that person?

Giving opinions on others without vote doesn't seem to do us any good

...Wait, I must have misread that. Let me look again.

Giving opinions on others without vote doesn't seem to do us any good

[/b]

...Are you kidding me?
Are you honestly trying to say that you're only ever allowed to express an opinion on who you're voting for? Because that's an absolutely horrible line of thought unless you genuinely have nothing against anyone else at all.

tl;dr - this whole 'not showing other opinions' thing? Yeah, that's called TUNNELING.

[Kilgamayan]

Requesting Alice makes a cameo appearance to berate someone.

Alice has told me that he'd love to fill in but does not have the time to devote to the game.

I'm half tempted to ask Carthrat to fill in but, to be honest, I agree with Suwako on the fairness of replacement to the other players at this juncture given Tenshi's performance so far. :|

Not replace. Just come in and say "<Person> is a fucking retard"

Oh.

I think I can arrange that.

[WHMZakeri]

Tunneling implies that we are ignoring other people. We are just pursuing the one who we feel most probable scum.

[Pesco]

Sylon might have been cool for replacing. But he hasn't been seen in a week :/

I think we haven't heard much from Nietz today.

[FinnKaenbyou]

Tunneling implies that we are ignoring other people. We are just pursuing the one who we feel most probable scum.

Fact: There's probably more than one scum out there. And I fail to understand how this is different from tunneling, except that you claim to have opinions and don't bother making them known. How is retaining information anything other than Anti-Town?

[Pesco]

Let's just consider the most important thing here first. Do you think Zak is scum, Rou? Yes or No only.

[FinnKaenbyou]

Let's just consider the most important thing here first. Do you think Zak is scum, Rou? Yes or No only.

Yes.

[FinnKaenbyou]

EBWOP: And before the inevitable 'Why am I not voting for him' question, I'm putting him and Sodium down as scum for different reasons, and moving my vote won't do much since neither lynch seems to be happening.