Author Topic: Touhou Smash crowdfunding and ZUN's fancreation rules (discussion thread)  (Read 214153 times)

Colticide

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Re: Touhou Smash crowdfunding and ZUN's fancreation rules (discussion thread)
« Reply #900 on: January 23, 2015, 10:18:41 PM »
True having a touhou game at the start does get a lot of attention from the touhou fanbase, but I can also see how as a dev you want to be known for your original work and not a fan work, but both sides have advantages and disadvantages.

Touhou from start: Strong start and support but many things can go wrong towards the middle and end results (like what we have here.)

Original IP: Slow start but not as much pressure in the middle and end on how it should be done which lets them have creative freedom, could still have issues but in the end there will be fans of the OG if good enough and then the fame will build from there.

That's just how I see it anyway, I'm just a one man team for my work so my views could be limited, but I feel I know enough about game design tactics that can work.
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Re: Touhou Smash crowdfunding and ZUN's fancreation rules (discussion thread)
« Reply #901 on: January 23, 2015, 10:23:25 PM »
@Alcoraiden:
As I understand this, I think it's pretty simple: of course it's not acceptable. ZUN's guidelines basically boil down to 'don't distribute fanworks where those unfamiliar with Touhou may get ahold of them'. Even if it's just a mod, it's still a Touhou-derivative fanwork and subject to the same guidelines as anything else, so no Steam/WiiU. =)

What I'm curious about is whether it's possible for a commercial game to later go doujin. Yes, the game may satisfy the guidelines but, really, what it's based on was built outside of the guidelines. Seems a bit sketchy...... Wouldn't that mean the bits and pieces that make up the fanwork were built outside of the doujin guidelines, so even if it's given a fresh coat of paint it's still a non-doujin game?

I think it'd be like taking a Mac and stuffing it into a PC case - no matter what the outside looks like, it won't ever be a PC......

(Edit) Actually I feel like I'm expressing myself poorly. If I make game A commercially, can I then make game B from game A and call game B "doujin" because the differences from game A satisfy the doujin guidelines, or I can't because the basis for game B (game A) did not in the first place?
« Last Edit: January 23, 2015, 10:27:30 PM by Omegahugger »

Alcoraiden

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Re: Touhou Smash crowdfunding and ZUN's fancreation rules (discussion thread)
« Reply #902 on: January 23, 2015, 10:25:32 PM »
Yeah I'd play it safe and go Touhou and work on converting the Glass Wing game to WiiU or whatever they said earlier.

Re: Touhou Smash crowdfunding and ZUN's fancreation rules (discussion thread)
« Reply #903 on: January 24, 2015, 12:22:06 AM »
Geez, some people are overreacting. This is not the end of the world, there are still a lot of Touhou fangames being made.

As said before, doujin games are not meant for profit. You can't make a living out of it. Focusing only on the Touhou version would be risky for Saijee's carieer.

And for those who still don't get the matter about Zun's guideline:

● Touhou Project is doujin
● Touhou Project is a copyrighted work
● Zun's guideline is a list of exceptions that allow one to use his copyrighted work. Those exceptions follow the "Doujin Spirit" (as you call it)

It doesn't apply specifically to Zun. Vocaloid and many others doujin projects follow the same rules.


Re: Touhou Smash crowdfunding and ZUN's fancreation rules (discussion thread)
« Reply #904 on: January 24, 2015, 12:28:25 AM »
OK, let me see if I got this straight - The plan is to release FakeTouhou on Steam and Wii U (as a product to buy), and RealTouhou on doujin channels for free, right? Then what is all that talk about mods?

Flandre5carlet

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Re: Touhou Smash crowdfunding and ZUN's fancreation rules (discussion thread)
« Reply #905 on: January 24, 2015, 12:29:41 AM »
I'm done trying to explain simple facts to people on YouTube, lol.

Alcoraiden

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Re: Touhou Smash crowdfunding and ZUN's fancreation rules (discussion thread)
« Reply #906 on: January 24, 2015, 01:25:36 AM »
Geez, some people are overreacting. This is not the end of the world, there are still a lot of Touhou fangames being made.

As said before, doujin games are not meant for profit. You can't make a living out of it. Focusing only on the Touhou version would be risky for Saijee's carieer.

And for those who still don't get the matter about Zun's guideline:

● Touhou Project is doujin
● Touhou Project is a copyrighted work
● Zun's guideline is a list of exceptions that allow one to use his copyrighted work. Those exceptions follow the "Doujin Spirit" (as you call it)

It doesn't apply specifically to Zun. Vocaloid and many others doujin projects follow the same rules.

This will not nuke Saijee's career, dude. Homebrew projects are good on your resume *especially* for college students, who aren't expected to have too much experience when going out into the workforce.

Re: Touhou Smash crowdfunding and ZUN's fancreation rules (discussion thread)
« Reply #907 on: January 24, 2015, 01:28:43 AM »
As said before, doujin games are not meant for profit.
Incorrect, TSA's email to us said that getting a big profit off of Doujin is perfectly fine.

To reiterate the plan: Nansei Doujin Spirit for the Wii U and Steam, Touhou Doujin Spirit for PC, where they are identical games apart form iconography.

The latter game would not, I repeat: NOT be made in secret. Because I have nothing to hide. And would only be made if we can guarantee ZUN won't continue with the accusing FSS of copyright infringement.

Re: Touhou Smash crowdfunding and ZUN's fancreation rules (discussion thread)
« Reply #908 on: January 24, 2015, 01:35:30 AM »
Quote from: Saijee
Nansei Doujin Spirit
Weren't you going to change the name because of a conflict with LENK64's own Nansei series?

(By the way..... not to nitpick or anything, but I still say 'Doujin Spirit' sounds like a passive-aggressive dig at the events that took place before we got to this point..... Not to mention now that you've decided to make it into a commercial project by releasing it on the Wii U and on Steam, the name doesn't really make sense anymore. Just my opinion, for whatever it may be worth. =) )

Re: Touhou Smash crowdfunding and ZUN's fancreation rules (discussion thread)
« Reply #909 on: January 24, 2015, 01:36:41 AM »
If I could suggest a name, Battle Royale has a good ring to it.

Re: Touhou Smash crowdfunding and ZUN's fancreation rules (discussion thread)
« Reply #910 on: January 24, 2015, 01:42:08 AM »
I don't really know what Shade might have said about the title.


But from my point of view, Nansei (lit South-West) doesn't seem to be much of a problem as it's kinda just a word. Jet Set Radio has nothing to do with Jet Force Gemini for example. "Nansei" isn't the title: it's "Nansei Doujin Spirit."

I could see how it could be seen as passive aggressive, but I was actually planning on working in the games story to be a means to educate people on the actual irl "Doujin Spirit."


But this is really getting off tangent, the bigger point I want you guys to address:
Quote
To reiterate the plan: Nansei Doujin Spirit for the Wii U and Steam, Touhou Doujin Spirit for PC, where they are identical games apart form iconography.

The latter game would not, I repeat: NOT be made in secret. Because I have nothing to hide. And would only be made if we can guarantee ZUN won't continue with the accusing FSS of copyright infringement.
« Last Edit: January 24, 2015, 01:49:48 AM by Saijee »

Re: Touhou Smash crowdfunding and ZUN's fancreation rules (discussion thread)
« Reply #911 on: January 24, 2015, 01:49:17 AM »
Incorrect, TSA's email to us said that getting a big profit off of Doujin is perfectly fine.

You are reading between the lines.
There's a difference between "You can make a big profit out of it" and "You'll make a big profit out of it"

No circle get as much as what you asked for the campaign.

Re: Touhou Smash crowdfunding and ZUN's fancreation rules (discussion thread)
« Reply #912 on: January 24, 2015, 01:52:17 AM »
@ Jx, funding isn't profit. And like I already stated a long time ago the the funding was to be used to actually FUND the project:
Unity, Maya, FLS, new PCs, and everything beyond the original 10k was to be spent hiring animators to get more characters done faster.

Can this really in any way shape or form be read as *greedy*?

N-Forza

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Re: Touhou Smash crowdfunding and ZUN's fancreation rules (discussion thread)
« Reply #913 on: January 24, 2015, 01:55:01 AM »
You aren't greedy for wanting to fund the project, but it's still beyond the bounds of doujin in general, not just Touhou.

Incorrect, TSA's email to us said that getting a big profit off of Doujin is perfectly fine.
There's a difference between "meant" for profit and "getting" a profit. You don't make doujin works with the express end goal of making a profit. If you do, awesome, more power to you. But doujin fanworks are meant to express how much you like the original property and wanted to share that with like-minded fans.

And the problem with your title is that anyone who knows about this game's backstory (quite a bit from the looks of it) are know what you've intended with your choice. If it really were just a word, you wouldn't have any problems with changing it.

And if you can't see the problem with making a Touhou doujin clone based off of whatever original commercial game you make, you probably shouldn't be making that clone at all.

Reu

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Re: Touhou Smash crowdfunding and ZUN's fancreation rules (discussion thread)
« Reply #914 on: January 24, 2015, 01:56:06 AM »

And if you can't see the problem with making a Touhou doujin clone based off of whatever original commercial game you make, you probably shouldn't be making that clone at all.

I thought it was the other way around.
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Re: Touhou Smash crowdfunding and ZUN's fancreation rules (discussion thread)
« Reply #915 on: January 24, 2015, 02:00:28 AM »
Quote from: Saijee
Jet Set Radio has nothing to do with Jet Force Gemini for example
The counter-example to this would be putting "Touhou" in the title. But It seems like you've already made up your mind about the name, one way or another, so I'm just saying.... =)

Will the game be taking place in a south-western setting? Names are more than just random collections of words. I figure there's a reason behind this choice -- I'm just interested. I'm also a little curious how a smasher's storyline might relate to doujin games.... especially with the Touhou version (....Remi gets bored and tries to make her own doujin-style game, only for Reimu and the others to see it as a potential incident? =) ) -- I think you said the story would be the same between both games in an earlier post but I could be wrong. (Sorry if that's the case.)
« Last Edit: January 24, 2015, 02:05:13 AM by Omegahugger »

ShadowNCS

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Re: Touhou Smash crowdfunding and ZUN's fancreation rules (discussion thread)
« Reply #916 on: January 24, 2015, 02:06:17 AM »
While I don't think you'll necessarily get into problems with making the non-Touhou game for WiiU/ Steam and then making a mod replacing the characters with Touhou characters, I can see how fans of Touhou (who only see the finished product and haven't been here during the development period) might call out to you for ripping off Touhou (even if they know of the Touhou version) if the characters get too Touhou-y with their attacks and abilities. But I might just be paranoid here or something.

On another note, you said you wanted to make a story mode?
How would that work out exactly, if you made two versions of the game?
What I mean is, will you base the story mode on Touhou characters, thus giving the non-Touhou characters the personality of the Touhou ones? I'm just asking because, the more similar the original characters are with their Touhou counterparts, the worse might be the reception from the player's side (for "ripping off Touhou").
Or is your story just like Subspace in SSBB, where personality doesn't really matter to begin with?

Sorry if my wording is crap and a little hard to understand, but I really should be going to sleep. ^^;

Re: Touhou Smash crowdfunding and ZUN's fancreation rules (discussion thread)
« Reply #917 on: January 24, 2015, 02:15:22 AM »
@ N-Forza,  A lot of things that supposidely are beyond doujin happen to doujin's though. Even though I've been told that Steam is a nogo for doujin because most people on steam don't know doujins, doujin games do exist on steam (just one example).

I think you read it the wrong way.

"it's just a word" as in meaning just what I said in the post: It's a part of the name but "Nansei" isn't the name of the game. It's not even "Nansei: Doujin Spririt" it's "Nansei Doujin Spirit".

@Omegahugger, Yea the stories will be identical. Though just because the stories are the same and thus touhou characters will be incorperated into the story to move it forward doesn't limit what the story can be used as a platform to talk about.

@ ShadowNCS, yea that is why on the dev log I'd be as loud about it as possible such that most of the people who are going to play the game will already know what's up.

Paz legalces

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Re: Touhou Smash crowdfunding and ZUN's fancreation rules (discussion thread)
« Reply #918 on: January 24, 2015, 02:24:48 AM »
just woke up, sorry for intruding again
Just want to wonder that have we ever got the problem of C&D misunderstanding sorted out yet?
It's because on youtube that question and those C&D strike claims still seems to be going on pretty strongly while over here things seem to have gone past that topic without any resolution

Colticide

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Re: Touhou Smash crowdfunding and ZUN's fancreation rules (discussion thread)
« Reply #919 on: January 24, 2015, 02:43:02 AM »
Saijee I really don't think you should be using the game to teach people about "doujin spirit" considering it was your lack of understanding that got you into this mess. You keep saying the name but that name have no meaning, it doesn't connect to your gameplay and since we have no idea what the story will be; we have no idea if that fits either.

To be short the names really bad and i feel it needs to change to really reflect what your game is going to be about, and I suggest avoiding using it to teach people about doujin.

Just think on it, you may find you like a different name to use, I'm currently using 東洋夢の博物館 (Museum of Oriental Dream) for my title but as I make the game I'm finding more and more reason to change it, since currently it won't reflect on what the game is about.

EDIT: @ Paz: I don't think there was, the emails are protected under privacy laws so we can't get a look at the contents ourselves.
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Re: Touhou Smash crowdfunding and ZUN's fancreation rules (discussion thread)
« Reply #920 on: January 24, 2015, 02:49:52 AM »
Fact: There are a lot of things I didn't understand about Doujin Spirit before.
Fact: There are a lot of things I know about it now.
Fact: I still don't know everything about it.
Fact: As it is currently explained to the available public is is still very unclear.
Opinion: The gaming world would be better knowing more about it.
Fact: Story is a platform which has the ability to communicate such information.
Fact: If the story can be about educating people on doujin spirit: there is nothing misinformative about the title.

Colticide

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Re: Touhou Smash crowdfunding and ZUN's fancreation rules (discussion thread)
« Reply #921 on: January 24, 2015, 02:54:23 AM »
It just seems like a contradiction when you make a Wii U title to teach about doujin. I never even knew Cave Story was doujin, but they never were in your face about it, in fact the very fact I never knew it was doujin just shows they never talked about it. I really think it best to not use it to teach people what it is but let people find it themselves.
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Reu

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Re: Touhou Smash crowdfunding and ZUN's fancreation rules (discussion thread)
« Reply #922 on: January 24, 2015, 03:04:17 AM »
Why not just make the two games different instead of clones.
Since the other game isn't about Touhou you could remove Touhou influenced mechanics like flight and replace it with something else just as interesting?
At this point this just seems to be going back and forth.

also personally if this is the case then I don't see any reason to purchase the OC game if the Touhou one is going to free anyways.
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Re: Touhou Smash crowdfunding and ZUN's fancreation rules (discussion thread)
« Reply #923 on: January 24, 2015, 03:10:53 AM »
Quote from: Colticide
It just seems like a contradiction when you make a Wii U title to teach about doujin.

I'm of the same opinion, to tell you the truth. This (NDS) isn't a doujin game so it seems kind of contractory.....

Doujin's pretty simple, and it's certainly not a "fact" that it's unclear. Doujin basically means "hobby". You make games because you have an idea you love and want to see it come to life. It's not to make money (possible, but certainly not the motivation behind the project!), not to attain fame (hence why there's no reason to target mass-distribution platforms), it's just because you enjoy making games and want to share your hobby with whoever else is like-minded.

I'm not sure if this is what's going on here.... I'm sure you love making games but the problem's the goals behind the game itself. If you really just want to see your idea come to life and don't (explicitly) want it to be a huge, fame-drawing, money-making thing, this isn't the way to go about it..... I also gather you have a career you want to advance (which is totally fine) so I don't see how a game that's in no way "doujin" is the right kind of platform to teach others about "doujin"....

tl;dr, I don't know if this is a good idea..... If you really feel doujin is unclear, won't you just spread more misinformation about it? Why not just stick to the whole smasher-clone idea you started with? I think a lot of people are on-board with that, no? Of course, it's your decision in the end and you can feel free to ignore my comments if you don't agree. =)

Re: Touhou Smash crowdfunding and ZUN's fancreation rules (discussion thread)
« Reply #924 on: January 24, 2015, 03:29:57 AM »
I already said that there is a lot I don't know but I know more now and can still continue to know more about it before the story is set in stone.

That said, let's move forward under the assumption that the final story would in fact be made fully detailing the properly informed inner workings of doujin culture.

With that assumption in place, any more objections?

Reu

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Re: Touhou Smash crowdfunding and ZUN's fancreation rules (discussion thread)
« Reply #925 on: January 24, 2015, 03:32:56 AM »
I already said that there is a lot I don't know but I know more now and can still continue to know more about it before the story is set in stone.

That said, let's move forward under the assumption that the final story would in fact be made fully detailing the properly informed inner workings of doujin culture.

With that assumption in place, any more objections?

My post


Why not just make the two games different instead of clones of each other.
Since the other game isn't about Touhou you could remove Touhou influenced mechanics like flight and replace it with something else just as interesting?
At this point this just seems to be going back and forth.

also personally if this is the case then I don't see any reason to purchase the OC game if the Touhou one is going to free anyways.

You guys talk about the worry of copyright issues and I think simply re skinning them isn't enough to accomplish what you want here.

« Last Edit: January 24, 2015, 03:36:31 AM by Reu »
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Re: Touhou Smash crowdfunding and ZUN's fancreation rules (discussion thread)
« Reply #926 on: January 24, 2015, 03:37:12 AM »
My post


You guys talk about the worry of copyright issues but I think simply re skinning them isn't enough to accomplish what you want here.

I share the same view on this. For me, there has to be an effort for it to not be skirting the rules. Sometimes the fact that someone put effort into skirting the rules is more of a slap in the face than the end product (I hope that this word order makes sense). And that might be the straw that breaks the camel's back with a copyright claim.

Savory

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Re: Touhou Smash crowdfunding and ZUN's fancreation rules (discussion thread)
« Reply #927 on: January 24, 2015, 03:43:32 AM »
It just seems like a contradiction when you make a Wii U title to teach about doujin.

I agree.

And I also agree that simply reskinning characters may not be the best idea. It'd just be easier (and safer) to make fully original characters and give them references to Touhou or other series within their personality, movesets, alternate colors or dialogue. Maybe perhaps have at least one fighter inspired by a Touhou character but without making it blatantly obvious.

Colticide

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Re: Touhou Smash crowdfunding and ZUN's fancreation rules (discussion thread)
« Reply #928 on: January 24, 2015, 03:48:43 AM »
If what is said that the story will fully flesh out doujin, I still bring up my point of you teaching doujin on a Wii U title be a contradiction. No one outside of doujin need to learn what it is, if they get involved in it naturally then it our job as a community to help teach them about it by understanding the culture around it. Making a video game about it is the same as making a video but more interactive.

There is so much more to it then just teaching them in a video game, which then you show them your contradicting yourself by teaching them on the Wii U. There is a game currently being made to help teach those how to read Japanese, but it also understands that there is a lot more to Kana or Kanji and some look the same, but how they are used could mean different things.

I agree.

And I also agree that simply reskinning characters may not be the best idea. It'd just be easier (and safer) to make fully original characters and give them references to Touhou or other series within their personality, movesets, alternate colors or dialogue. Maybe perhaps have at least one fighter inspired by a Touhou character but without making it blatantly obvious.

Very true, I had to show a friend why Sakuya is a refrence to Dio Brando of Jojo's, she has similarities but she is different enough to be her own character and not just a female Dio.
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Re: Touhou Smash crowdfunding and ZUN's fancreation rules (discussion thread)
« Reply #929 on: January 24, 2015, 03:52:00 AM »
I'm pretty sure it could be what the characters will be like. Gameplay is fine, you can't copyright gameplay mechanics (but god have companies tried), it's mostly with the characters really. If your Wii U version has character that are still very similar to Touhou characters from your TSSB game then there could be issues. If they look completely different but have a color palate similar then I believe it to be fine. Look at all the fighting games that do this, Filia from Skullguirls has a Fiona color pallet from Adventure Time. Having a maid character the uses knives is mostly pushing your boundaries, why not have green haired pigtailed elven maid who uses a giant hammer that inexplicably explodes into tuna when ever she attacks? That's just an example but it's a way to show you can use them as a base but you can turn them into something else entirely. There are many characters based on other things but as long as the end result is not, "Wait that's just X with a different hairstyle!" then you should be fine. I've made characters based on some Touhou characters and after working on them for long enough they became their own person with their own personality from what they were based on. (Ex in my case Yuugi and Utsuho)
I don't think you realize how much work that would be. The bulk content of fighting game development is around individual characters, rather than primary game mechanics. Animation work in particular is very heavy in comparison to everything else. I agree having completely different characters would be best, but that would be a stupendously difficult thing to do.

What I'm curious about is whether it's possible for a commercial game to later go doujin. [...] If I make game A commercially, can I then make game B from game A and call game B "doujin" because the differences from game A satisfy the doujin guidelines, or I can't because the basis for game B (game A) did not in the first place?
It would be impossible for a commercial game to somehow branch out as a doujin game. If you really intended the project to go doujin, it would be changed to free to play... but that's still isn't really doujin per se, it's just a now-free indie work. Expanding on that, trying to paste someone else's doujin IP onto your work after the fact, even if you make your original work free, would be IP theft at worst and just look like a pathetic attempt to grab attention at best. You'd better have some sort of solid deal with the IP owner to pull off something like that. On a completely different note, if you have a game you published commercially but are making side games based off of it like pet projects, that seems fine, especially if it's your own IP.

@ N-Forza,  A lot of things that supposidely are beyond doujin happen to doujin's though. Even though I've been told that Steam is a nogo for doujin because most people on steam don't know doujins, doujin games do exist on steam (just one example).
Three important considerations:
1) Doujin games that get released on Steam are games that were already released as doujin titles. Getting published on Steam is an expansion into indie territory, although they're still considered "doujin games" because of their origin. Generally this is seen as a good thing because everyone likes to see people's hobbies being able to expand into something sustainable.
2) These games are the IP of their creators. These doujin games are not derivative works based on other people's IP.
3) Steam isn't really a "no-go for doujin" besides the under above consideration that they're more accurately labeled as indie works. It's Touhou derivative works in particular that are disallowed from wide-reaching publication.
« Last Edit: January 24, 2015, 03:56:47 AM by Drake »

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