Author Topic: Touhou Smash crowdfunding and ZUN's fancreation rules (discussion thread)  (Read 214184 times)

Paz legalces

  • Namusan
  • Howdy, I am Potato
    • Touhou Project FB
Re: Touhou Smash crowdfunding and ZUN's fancreation rules (discussion thread)
« Reply #840 on: January 23, 2015, 08:43:47 AM »
Eh... Shinebright... I have already told you right now is not exactly the best time for that question... not exactly the best location on the forum either =3=
Could any mod please kindly move it to somewhere else they see fit?

Helepolis

  • Charisma!
  • *
  • O-ojousama!?
Re: Touhou Smash crowdfunding and ZUN's fancreation rules (discussion thread)
« Reply #841 on: January 23, 2015, 08:44:03 AM »
ShinesBright, with all respect, we've been already over this and as Saijee also requested: we really want to move on. And I agree with Saijee. The Crowdfunding incident is over. We're now focussing on the future.

Saijee and his brothers are here to discuss things with us. There is no need to keep bashing the point and add noise. Such discussion

Re: Touhou Smash crowdfunding and ZUN's fancreation rules (discussion thread)
« Reply #842 on: January 23, 2015, 08:45:02 AM »
You have already sent it? ...but oh dear, didn't I say it would have been better for the folks here to make sure of the content first before sending it?
...and anyhow, that email doesn't really raise the question regarding copyright law strikes and stuff... and do you guys really want to give out the pc version for free? Really? That is a tad extreme even in my book personally
Like I said, we don't care about profits. All we are after is the satisfaction in the feeling that many people want to play our games.

@Helepolis, as I am a Wii U dev, I simply don't have the time to be able to continue to be working on the same project, at some point I need to work on Glass Wing Wii U.

Helepolis

  • Charisma!
  • *
  • O-ojousama!?
Re: Touhou Smash crowdfunding and ZUN's fancreation rules (discussion thread)
« Reply #843 on: January 23, 2015, 08:50:29 AM »
@Helepolis, as I am a Wii U dev, I simply don't have the time to be able to continue to be working on the same project, at some point I need to work on Glass Wing Wii U.
If I put my self in your situation (your shoes) here is what I would think and my mindset would be:

Constraints:
- Cannot ask for crowdfunding, must use own expenses.
- Limited time.
- Individual developer or limited help for now.
- Cannot sell the game in the West.

Questions:
- Do I have the time to work on 2 projects individually? > Nope.
- Do want to please the Toho fans > Yes
- Do want to continue career as WiiU > Yes.
- Is my Glass Wing WiiU game important? > Yes.
- Is it more important than hobby projects? > Yes

Conflicts:
- Cannot please both the fans and endanger my career. Major conflict.
- Limited time, one man dev / limited work > Can only focus on 1 thing.
- Career endangerment if focussing on wrong things.

My personal choice as Helepolis:
- Career (life) > Hobby. I would sacrifice hobbies over real life. Because well, I want to actually keep living on.
- Release the demo as published material in Japan
- Whenever spare time to work on TohoSmash > work on it.
- If possible, try to find help with own expenses or voluntary people to help with the TohoSmash

That is how I should do it personally. I am not sure if anybody else agrees. Most healthy choice especially because you mentioned Glass Wing.

Eiburine

  • Ferrero Rocher Lover
Re: Touhou Smash crowdfunding and ZUN's fancreation rules (discussion thread)
« Reply #844 on: January 23, 2015, 08:52:34 AM »
Maybe he's staggering the releases as to keep low.
If that's the case, I suggest releasing the Touhou version first. What you want as a game developer is attention. A fangame is surely more likely to gain a fanbase than a smash clone. The Touhou version has already gotten a lot of attention already.

Not only that, but if you release the wiiu/steam version first, and people buy it, and then later release a free Touhou version, people (most likely non-touhou fans) may feel ripped off that they didn't know about the free version.

Re: Touhou Smash crowdfunding and ZUN's fancreation rules (discussion thread)
« Reply #845 on: January 23, 2015, 08:56:36 AM »
Putting TSSB into nothing but a spare time activity would yield it with never reaching completion.

Re: Touhou Smash crowdfunding and ZUN's fancreation rules (discussion thread)
« Reply #846 on: January 23, 2015, 08:59:54 AM »
I am not trying to fight here. I am curious to what others think and hope they can give me the right directions.
I don't think there's anything wrong with answering questions and getting answers.

No.1 I see that people can ignore it but if possible I would like an answer so I have better understanding.

No.2  is relatable to the Thread which is [Touhou Smash crowdfunding and ZUN's fancreation rules (discussion thread)]

No.3 can be answered at least by Helepolis because you were telling me there is no double standards. But still if possible I would like people to answer this too.
« Last Edit: January 23, 2015, 09:01:26 AM by ShinesBright »

Drake

  • *
Re: Touhou Smash crowdfunding and ZUN's fancreation rules (discussion thread)
« Reply #847 on: January 23, 2015, 09:01:47 AM »
Reply to hours ago:
As I read Touhou Subs...
Let me get this straight: People of MotK still want this to be a Touhou game? I want this to be still be a Touhou game. Is this something we can agree on?

As much as I don't want to let go of Touhou, TSA has shown that they are not beyond calling copyright infringement.
Of course. That's been the goal from the very beginning. As for the second point, many people including myself have already noted that the takedown was very likely due to a lack of understanding IGG's policy about not being able to close completed campaigns. As far as I can tell you never made this clear to the japanese side, and as such it seemed as though you were not closing the campaign as requested, so action was taken. Additionally, many people have noted that if IGG receives a smaller cut when the campaign is shut down by claims, that this would even be the optimal course of action to take. If you had planned together with TSA to send a takedown notice (as some people suggested) to cancel and refund asap, would you still be saying that the language in that takedown notice implies that you could never develop Touhou derivative works again? Probably not, right?

Given that much of opinion here seems to be that this case was due largely to a series of misunderstandings and assumptions, the fact that people still think that your current position is a misunderstanding and still want to help is a pretty good indicator that people still genuinely want to help this work out as best as possible.



Recent posts: I was just writing up the following. While obviously you've sent out the email already, I still want to post this:

If another email is going to be sent and everyone wants to be cooperative, we need mutual communication and as much openness as possible. I'm suggesting:
- We make note of important things to mention in such an email, as a group.
- You/we draft up an email, and the contents are posted here beforehand, so people can make sure this is the message we want to convey.
- The reply is also posted publicly in its original form. To this end, the intention to post a reply publicly should be noted in the email itself.

Things I think should be noted:
- That the email's purpose is to clarify potential misunderstandings.
- Make it clear that the email conversation would be made public in order for translators and others to make sure the information is accurately interpreted.
- Clarify how you were tied with IGG and couldn't really close the campaign. Explain what you intended to do instead.
- Following this, ask if the reason for the takedown was because they thought that the campaign was not being closed. If this was the case, preemptively apologize for not informing them.
- Once again ask for permission to develop the game as a Touhou derivative.
- Probably other stuff

Any suggestions?

(EDIT: I really don't even think this is going to be necessary.)



Also, Shinesbright. I'll reply to your questions in a PM or something if you want, just hang on for a second and stop spamming that everywhere.
« Last Edit: January 23, 2015, 09:14:37 AM by Drake »

A Colorful Calculating Creative and Cuddly Crafty Callipygous Clever Commander
- original art by Aiけん | ウサホリ -

Paz legalces

  • Namusan
  • Howdy, I am Potato
    • Touhou Project FB
Re: Touhou Smash crowdfunding and ZUN's fancreation rules (discussion thread)
« Reply #848 on: January 23, 2015, 09:02:05 AM »
Monhan says he will be rushing over in 5 mins to translate these tweets:
https://twitter.com/Ruw/status/558204173448003584?s=07
Not exactly Zun's; but it's Ruw, Zun's friend, discussing about FSS today's announcement upon being informed about a forum member here about you guys' decisions
I believe it is worth a read

@ShineBright
Yes, you can have it answer, but on a DIFFERENT THREAD please, this thread is kinda... about something else right now...

Helepolis

  • Charisma!
  • *
  • O-ojousama!?
Re: Touhou Smash crowdfunding and ZUN's fancreation rules (discussion thread)
« Reply #849 on: January 23, 2015, 09:02:23 AM »
I am not trying to fight here. I am curious to what others think and hope they can give me a right directions.
I don't think there's anything wrong with answering questions and getting answers.

No.1 I see that people can ignore it but if possible I would like an answer so I have better understanding.

No.2  is relatable to the Thread which is [Touhou Smash crowdfunding and ZUN's fancreation rules (discussion thread)]

No.3 can be answered at least by Helepolis because you were telling me there is no double standards. But still if possible I would like people to answer this too.
ShinesBright, I've already seen your reactions on facebook. We're not playing this game. Asking 2nd time to drop the subject for now and keep it for a later discussion. Maybe in general thread about ZUN guidelines, but here we're discussing TSSB and the future.

Don't make me repeat it 3rd time please.


Paz legalces

  • Namusan
  • Howdy, I am Potato
    • Touhou Project FB
Re: Touhou Smash crowdfunding and ZUN's fancreation rules (discussion thread)
« Reply #850 on: January 23, 2015, 09:05:31 AM »
Quote
ShinesBright, I've already seen your reactions on facebook. We're not playing this game. Asking 2nd time to drop the subject for now and keep it for a later discussion. Maybe in general thread about ZUN guidelines, but here we're discussing TSSB and the future.

Don't make me repeat it 3rd time please.
My apology Helepolis. I was the one who asked her to forward those questions over to MoTK if she wants answer... but I did explicitly tell her this thread is busy right now and ask under a different thread at a different time... didn't think she would post the questions on this thread though
My apologies, my sincerest apologies

Re: Touhou Smash crowdfunding and ZUN's fancreation rules (discussion thread)
« Reply #851 on: January 23, 2015, 09:07:29 AM »
Sorry if I seem persistent but I am new to the whole activities with forums and I thought it wasn't a big deal to just post a random question.

So.... for my topic which thread is it that I should go?

and will you guys address my post there?

Paz legalces

  • Namusan
  • Howdy, I am Potato
    • Touhou Project FB
Re: Touhou Smash crowdfunding and ZUN's fancreation rules (discussion thread)
« Reply #852 on: January 23, 2015, 09:12:33 AM »
Make a new thread here perhaps?
https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/board,6.0.html
Not sure about others but I will get back to your question in 20 hours, I promise
Anyhow, back on topic, are you guys still here, FSS and Shade?

Helepolis

  • Charisma!
  • *
  • O-ojousama!?
Re: Touhou Smash crowdfunding and ZUN's fancreation rules (discussion thread)
« Reply #853 on: January 23, 2015, 09:14:58 AM »
Personally I wouldn't encourage a new thread now. Because ShinesBright is relating the questions to this this incident.

Sorry if I seem persistent but I am new to the whole activities with forums and I thought it wasn't a big deal to just post a random question.

So.... for my topic which thread is it that I should go?

and will you guys address my post there?
It isn't a big deal to post questions, but if you actually follow the flow you can see that now isn't the exact time. We're trying to reach a conclusion here. After that, we will see whether we need to make a new thread to discuss ZUN Guidelines in general or continue it here. Because for me it is also important to make ZUN's guidelines more known to people because we want to avoid history repeating.

Re: Touhou Smash crowdfunding and ZUN's fancreation rules (discussion thread)
« Reply #854 on: January 23, 2015, 09:26:59 AM »
I am not trying to say something about the guidelines but more of the reason of why ZUN is totally innocent and FSS totally guilty in your opinion.
So putting me on a thread about guidelines isn't going to satisfy my curiosity of No.1 and No.3

If it really came down to getting on a new thread than what should my title for it be?
« Last Edit: January 23, 2015, 09:29:37 AM by ShinesBright »

Re: Touhou Smash crowdfunding and ZUN's fancreation rules (discussion thread)
« Reply #855 on: January 23, 2015, 09:29:21 AM »
Regarding the 2 versions of this fan smasher:

If ZUN/TSA lets us continue TSSB: the only difference would be the character, stage and bullet designs, as well as names. Otherwise it'd be the exact same game.

Helepolis

  • Charisma!
  • *
  • O-ojousama!?
Re: Touhou Smash crowdfunding and ZUN's fancreation rules (discussion thread)
« Reply #856 on: January 23, 2015, 09:33:59 AM »
Railing this back on track:

Saijee, you've been wondering about the 2 versions. See my "If I were in your shoes" response. That is pretty much what you're dealing with. You said you lack the time and thus you need to make a serious real life choice. And it isn't fucking issue, we all know it.

Putting TSSB into nothing but a spare time activity would yield it with never reaching completion.
You seem to be afraid that if you choose your career over TSSB, people will hate you and flame you. Perhaps they will be disappointed but if they are real supporters/understanding, they would also respect your choice. Just like we respect ZUN's guidelines, we also respect your choice for career.


Regarding the 2 versions of this fan smasher:

If ZUN/TSA lets us continue TSSB: the only difference would be the character, stage and bullet designs, as well as names. Otherwise it'd be the exact same game.
Monhan is hopefully coming over with a Tweet translation from Ruw. It was something along the lines of: "We were running wild for no reason because the game can be still made, just no crowdfunding or unauthorized selling through unapproved platforms."


N-Forza

  • Information Superhighway Robbery
  • *
  • I said it was a steal, but not for whom
Re: Touhou Smash crowdfunding and ZUN's fancreation rules (discussion thread)
« Reply #857 on: January 23, 2015, 09:36:52 AM »
Regarding the 2 versions of this fan smasher:

If ZUN/TSA lets us continue TSSB: the only difference would be the character, stage and bullet designs, as well as names. Otherwise it'd be the exact same game.

I would be hesitant to do that though, as taking a game you created as a business and simply giving it a new coat of paint could be seen as trying to skirt the rules. Even if you were to make a clear distinction between your original characters and the Touhou characters, the fact that all the game's groundwork wasn't made with the intentions of making a doujin game in mind seems dicey.

Just my two cents, since I don't think there's been any precedent for that. Usually it's the other way around, going from doujin to commercial (Cave Story, etc.).

Also, I don't have time to translate everything at the moment, but I can say that the in the tweet Hele partially translated, Ruw was talking about FSS "running wild" and making assumptions that ZUN was OK about the Chinese PS4 fiasco, when ZUN really wasn't. Misinterpretations all around.

Re: Touhou Smash crowdfunding and ZUN's fancreation rules (discussion thread)
« Reply #858 on: January 23, 2015, 09:38:38 AM »
Quote
You said you lack the time and thus you need to make a serious real life choice. And it isn't fucking issue, we all know it.
I'm sorry, but I literally have no idea what your talking about.

Quote
afraid?
Hardly. Let me tell you a story: Before all of this I had started a project back in 2007, that later in 2009 started take the form titled "Difference" it kept on needing to change form though, and kept becoming behind it's time. And as a result. well it's 8 years later and the game still isn't around. That is what happens to stalled games.

Re: Touhou Smash crowdfunding and ZUN's fancreation rules (discussion thread)
« Reply #859 on: January 23, 2015, 09:42:22 AM »
Sorry for barging in, but from this situation, I think this is something that can help. Saijee, Shade, please read this.
Here is a tweet from Ruw: https://twitter.com/Ruw/status/558204173448003584?s=07

Quote
@flandre5carlet テキストを読んでます、まぁ作るのもやめるのも本人次第ですから仕方ないですね。誤解したままなのは残念ですが

It's his response when someone told that you're going to make a different game. Here's the translation:
Quote
"I read the texts. Well, it's up to them if they want to continue making the game or stop, we have no say in that. Though it's a bit unfortunate that this ends while he still misunderstood it."

Okay, now calm down, and think about this with a clear mind.
That tweet is up for everyone to see. Ruw is a close friend of ZUN, and he surely have seen that. But he didn't disagree with Ruw's statement.
Ruw is one Japanese who keep up-to-date on this issue, and he also read this thread here. Therefore he knows a lot of this matter, and perhaps even more than us since he is a friend of ZUN.
So when he said that, and ZUN didn't say anything against it, isn't that enough proof that ZUN doesn't mind you continuing the game after this?

Once again, I'd like you to process that and rethink this again and choose the road you will take.
And guys, give them some time to think.
« Last Edit: January 23, 2015, 09:46:47 AM by monhan »

Helepolis

  • Charisma!
  • *
  • O-ojousama!?
Re: Touhou Smash crowdfunding and ZUN's fancreation rules (discussion thread)
« Reply #860 on: January 23, 2015, 09:43:35 AM »
I guess I misunderstood that part then, my apologies.

Speaking about stalled games, let me tell you a story of my own Danmakufu game from 2009. But later maybe in private setting or different thread. :V

Edit: Oh, Forza-san posted.

Edit 2: Monhan is also here. I'll observe for now and stop posting, as otherwise it becomes noise.


Re: Touhou Smash crowdfunding and ZUN's fancreation rules (discussion thread)
« Reply #861 on: January 23, 2015, 09:58:39 AM »
-stuff about Ruw
The TSSB drama started when ZUN responded to Ruw, it'd be cool if it could also end with a clear answer that way too, but that's just wishful thinking.

Alcoraiden

  • Do not go gentle into that good night
Re: Touhou Smash crowdfunding and ZUN's fancreation rules (discussion thread)
« Reply #862 on: January 23, 2015, 10:02:45 AM »
That seems pretty darn clear to me. Saijee, seems you got too spooked by the IGG removal. Yes, the idea of getting sued is scary, but TSA has had plenty of time to tell you to 100% stop the project and did not do so. Also, Ruw was 100% clear if you ask me.

Do you really think everyone here is total bullshit on knowledge of how these things work?

Prime32

  • Munch-Munch Demon
Re: Touhou Smash crowdfunding and ZUN's fancreation rules (discussion thread)
« Reply #863 on: January 23, 2015, 10:13:54 AM »
Seriously, Saijee, ZUN has only one guideline and it's never changed - "Do not create confusion as to the nature of the original work.". Everything else he's said is just advice on how to achieve that, in case people do it unintentionally.
« Last Edit: January 23, 2015, 10:15:43 AM by Prime32 »

Drake

  • *
Re: Touhou Smash crowdfunding and ZUN's fancreation rules (discussion thread)
« Reply #864 on: January 23, 2015, 10:23:00 AM »
IMO the current course of action should be to wait for the reply to Shade's email, and perhaps keep this in mind:

Recent posts: I was just writing up the following. While obviously you've sent out the email already, I still want to post this:

If another email is going to be sent and everyone wants to be cooperative, we need mutual communication and as much openness as possible. I'm suggesting:
- We make note of important things to mention in such an email, as a group.
- You/we draft up an email, and the contents are posted here beforehand, so people can make sure this is the message we want to convey.
- The reply is also posted publicly in its original form. To this end, the intention to post a reply publicly should be noted in the email itself.

Things I think should be noted:
- That the email's purpose is to clarify potential misunderstandings.
- Make it clear that the email conversation would be made public in order for translators and others to make sure the information is accurately interpreted.
- Clarify how you were tied with IGG and couldn't really close the campaign. Explain what you intended to do instead.
- Following this, ask if the reason for the takedown was because they thought that the campaign was not being closed. If this was the case, preemptively apologize for not informing them.
- Once again ask for permission to develop the game as a Touhou derivative.
- Probably other stuff

Any suggestions?

In that respect, as said before, I really don't think there's an issue going forward with this as a Touhou game. If we can get this established to a level you guys are satisfied with, then we can start talking more about the possibility of making alternate versions and whatnot.

A Colorful Calculating Creative and Cuddly Crafty Callipygous Clever Commander
- original art by Aiけん | ウサホリ -

Re: Touhou Smash crowdfunding and ZUN's fancreation rules (discussion thread)
« Reply #865 on: January 23, 2015, 10:23:29 AM »
The TSSB drama started when ZUN responded to Ruw, it'd be cool if it could also end with a clear answer that way too, but that's just wishful thinking.

Yes, ever since that time, he's been watching over this issue.
And he probably knows about that disclaimer as well, because I'm sure ZUN had talked to him about it since he is quite curious of this matter.
And no, this is not wishful thinking. It's the truth, and it's not as bleak as you think it is.

And about making that non-Touhou game, I highly suggest you don't do it.
Plagiarism is highly frowned upon, IN JAPAN, not just in doujin scene, especially if you insist to make it Touhou-like after this incident.
If you really want to continue your career as a game developer, then you must not do that because it'll definitely damage your reputation permanently.

Please, consider this once more and make the right decision.
And listen to Drake's suggestion if you still want a direct answer from TSA.
« Last Edit: January 23, 2015, 10:32:55 AM by monhan »

Tengukami

  • Breaking news. Any season.
  • *
  • I said, with a posed look.
Re: Touhou Smash crowdfunding and ZUN's fancreation rules (discussion thread)
« Reply #866 on: January 23, 2015, 10:25:02 AM »
Also Saijee, PLEASE see Drake's last post, especially the bit about how to make the emails public. No one has accused you of lying about anything (not here anyway), but given your previous misunderstandings and TSA's clear policy about other Touhou fanworks, it seems reeeeeeally likely you misunderstood something rather than were issued a blanket ban. Again, let these people help you.

"Human history and growth are both linked closely to strife. Without conflict, humanity would have no impetus for growth. When humans are satisfied with their present condition, they may as well give up on life."

Firestorm29

  • Lily White Mage
  • Spring Time is Healing Time~
Re: Touhou Smash crowdfunding and ZUN's fancreation rules (discussion thread)
« Reply #867 on: January 23, 2015, 12:59:19 PM »
One problem I really don't think you guys are getting. The email was fromIGG and not TSA, right? When you send a copyright claim like what was suggested, you'll typically get an email like that, just standard. It doesn't reflect your agreement with zun to kill the campaign, in fact, you should have expected to see that email if you couldn't kill it.

Send an email to zun to verify, because I'm sure the IGG email is nothing but standardized notifications.

Flandre5carlet

  • Sister of the Devil
  • "So all I have to do is 'kyuu', and..."
    • flan.moe
Re: Touhou Smash crowdfunding and ZUN's fancreation rules (discussion thread)
« Reply #868 on: January 23, 2015, 01:13:42 PM »
One problem I really don't think you guys are getting. The email was fromIGG and not TSA, right? When you send a copyright claim like what was suggested, you'll typically get an email like that, just standard. It doesn't reflect your agreement with zun to kill the campaign, in fact, you should have expected to see that email if you couldn't kill it.

Send an email to zun to verify, because I'm sure the IGG email is nothing but standardized notifications.

This. I firmly believe that the copyright infringement mentioned was strictly a reason to file the Indiegogo claim, and not in regard to the entire game as a whole. A bit as if a Youtube video of the project was taken down because you used a track from ZUN's CDs.  The video would be removed on the grounds of copyright infringement, but it would not by any means mean that the whole game is concerned.
« Last Edit: January 23, 2015, 01:15:57 PM by Flandre5carlet »

Re: Touhou Smash crowdfunding and ZUN's fancreation rules (discussion thread)
« Reply #869 on: January 23, 2015, 01:39:41 PM »
Putting TSSB into nothing but a spare time activity would yield it with never reaching completion.
No, look at Black Mesa.  The fans will wait.