Touhou Smash crowdfunding and ZUN's fancreation rules (discussion thread)

[Reu]

I'm having trouble understanding. They can't refund because of indiegogo? Or they can but the issue is that some backers will refuse the refund?

Backers can/will refuse and that brings it back to step one unless this is a exception.

[Colticide]

Backers can/will refuse and that brings it back to step one unless this is a exception.

Oh so them refusing is making it fall out of doujin guidelines.

[Kilgamayan]

Well, if a refund is offered and refused, that doesn't still count as crowdfunding, I think. Near as I can tell, people are permitted to donate if they so choose, the dev just can't actively ask for money.

[Colticide]

Well, if a refund is offered and refused, that doesn't still count as crowdfunding, I think. Near as I can tell, people are permitted to donate if they so choose, the dev just can't actively ask for money.

OK, man there's a lot of 'I thinks'. We really need like a clear cut guideline on this heh.

[Kilgamayan]

That's based on this:

On the other hand, if they still allow for monetary contributions, but contributors don't get anything out of it, i.e. actual donations, they wouldn't be running foul of guidelines.

Basically, what can be done is a statement that all money will be refunded, and all perks will be honored. At that point, anyone that refuses their refund should be considered to an actual donator, because they're not actually getting anything out of their donation.

[Helepolis]

There is actually little to no confusion to be honest.

Well, if a refund is offered and refused, that doesn't still count as crowdfunding, I think. Near as I can tell, people are permitted to donate if they so choose, the dev just can't actively ask for money.

Well I've been in touch with several people regarding this and one of their opinions sounded like this:

"Waiting for each of the donor to ask the refund is unrealistic, then there's no other way than to forcefully return all of it to the donor. He should just transfer them all back, regardless of what the donators say. The important thing is that all the money gathered through IGG will have to be returned to the donators,every cent of it."

This actually indeed the problem. FSS shouldn't be offering anything to the funders/supporters because that is still violating the guidelines.

What FSS needs to do is refund every single penny/cent first. Ditch the whole crowdfunding thing then continue his demo/dev. Only that way the game will return to its "Doujin" character because originally the game was made by his own efforts. It isn't really hard to understand this. People just keep adding noise and making it complicated.

[akj]

It's beginning to seem easier if Team Shanghai Alice just made a copyright claim against the IGG page and shut the campaign down, forcefully refunding all contributors.

[Alcoraiden]

At this point, after ZUN's folk and FSS have hashed things out, that would look really aggressive on Team Shanghai Alice's part. I'm not sure that would fly at this point unless something else huge happened.

[Reu]

There is actually little to no confusion to be honest.
Well I've been in touch with several people regarding this and one of their opinions sounded like this:

"Waiting for each of the donor to ask the refund is unrealistic, then there's no other way than to forcefully return all of it to the donor. He should just transfer them all back, regardless of what the donators say. The important thing is that all the money gathered through IGG will have to be returned to the donators,every cent of it."

This actually indeed the problem. FSS shouldn't be offering anything to the funders/supporters because that is still violating the guidelines.

What FSS needs to do is refund every single penny/cent first. Ditch the whole crowdfunding thing then continue his demo/dev. Only that way the game will return to its "Doujin" character because originally the game was made by his own efforts. It isn't really hard to understand this. People just keep adding noise and making it complicated.

There's a problem with that.
IGG has rules of their own.
They aren't exactly offering this because they want to, they kinda have to.

[aUsernameIsFineToo]

There's a problem with that.
IGG has rules of their own.
They aren't exactly offering this because they want to, they kinda have to.

So you're saying they literally can't refund the donors? I think there's no way that's realistic, because once you get money you can do with it whatever you please. Forcibly giving it back to those who paid it, as in transferring it back to their bank accounts, shouldn't and wouldn't be a problem at all.

If IGG still required the terms of donating, e.g. "the perks", to be fulfilled, I don't see how it would be a problem after the money is refunded in full to those who donated. It's the best of both worlds: neither TSA nor IGG's rules are violated.

[Reu]

So you're saying they literally can't refund the donors? I think there's no way that's realistic, because once you get money you can do with it however you please. Forcibly giving it back to those who paid it, as in transferring it back to their bank accounts, shouldn't and wouldn't be a problem at all.

If IGG still required the terms of donating, e.g. "the perks", to be fulfilled, I don't see how it would be a problem after the money is refunded in full to those who donated. It's the best of both worlds: neither TSA nor IGG's rules are violated.

https://support.indiegogo.com/hc/en-us/articles/527456-Following-Up-and-Sending-Perks

Hm, it seems you're right on the part that it doesn't matter if they do get refunds so long as the perks themselves are fulfilled.

[Tengukami]

At this point, after ZUN's folk and FSS have hashed things out, that would look really aggressive on Team Shanghai Alice's part. I'm not sure that would fly at this point unless something else huge happened.

I cannot see how it would be "aggressive" on the part of the game creator to have their copyright honored, under guidelines a lot looser than many if not most game creators would set up, by having unauthorized crowdfunded money refunded to people who would still be free to donate their share all over again anyway.

[aUsernameIsFineToo]

https://support.indiegogo.com/hc/en-us/articles/527456-Following-Up-and-Sending-Perks

Hm, it seems you're right on the part that it doesn't matter if they do get refunds so long as the perks themselves are fulfilled.

If FSS does decide to go down that route, I believe it would be in their best interest to collect proof that the money was refunded and provide TSA with that. Whether that means keeping bank balance records, PayPal confirmation emails, etc. depends on how the refunds are to be processed. I think something on as grand of a scale as this should be done somewhat officially.

[Alcoraiden]

I cannot see how it would be "aggressive" on the part of the game creator to have their copyright honored, under guidelines a lot looser than many if not most game creators would set up, by having unauthorized crowdfunded money refunded to people who would still be free to donate their share all over again anyway.

Note that I added the condition there for "if something big happens." Totally violating the final agreement would be something big there. But out of the blue deciding "hmmm well just in case, even though we've hashed things out, let's shut it down officially" might look like aggressive action.

[Tengukami]

Yeah, no, still not seeing it as 'aggressive". Especially in the context of everything that went down earlier on (which doesn't need to be re-hashed here) which, agreement or no, certainly wouldn't inspire a lot of trust in me if I were in ZUN's position.

Guess we'll agree to disagree then!

[linguiwen]

There is actually little to no confusion to be honest.
Well I've been in touch with several people regarding this and one of their opinions sounded like this:

"Waiting for each of the donor to ask the refund is unrealistic, then there's no other way than to forcefully return all of it to the donor. He should just transfer them all back, regardless of what the donators say. The important thing is that all the money gathered through IGG will have to be returned to the donators,every cent of it."

This actually indeed the problem. FSS shouldn't be offering anything to the funders/supporters because that is still violating the guidelines.

What FSS needs to do is refund every single penny/cent first. Ditch the whole crowdfunding thing then continue his demo/dev. Only that way the game will return to its "Doujin" character because originally the game was made by his own efforts. It isn't really hard to understand this. People just keep adding noise and making it complicated.

they won't be getting every single cent of it...crowdfunding services would take a small portion (kickstarter takes roughly 10%, not sure what indiegogo takes)
so this will ultimately put them back even more
i honestly hope that ZUN would shut the project down just for the sake of making that refund much easier (this is also why i like kickstarter much better, the project creator can cancel any time and once a project is canceled, all refunds are processed automatically, not to mention that backers could always change their own pledge amounts or drop out of the campaign partway through)

[aUsernameIsFineToo]

i honestly hope that ZUN would shut the project crowdfunding campaign down just for the sake of making that refund much easier

I don't really want the entire project to be called off. Shutting down the campaign would be enough, right?

[Tengukami]

Speaking for myself, I don't want to see the project SHUT DOWN. If it'll abide the guidelines, awesome.

[aUsernameIsFineToo]

Speaking for myself, I don't want to see the project SHUT DOWN. If it'll abide the guidelines, awesome.

Nobody (at least here) wants it to meet that cruel fate, which is why we're all thinking of ways it could end up continuing. However, if it does end up getting shut down, it would go beyond that and possibly stigmatize the Western fanbase. Which is a further reason why I don't want that to happen.

[Alcoraiden]

Shutting down the project has always been overkill, yes? The discussion was mostly about how the project can fit doujin practices, not whether it should exist in any form, ever, at all.

Tengukami: I think I'm not getting my words out correctly. Sorry about that. XD I do understand your point, though; it makes good sense to me.

[linguiwen]

I don't really want the entire project to be called off. Shutting down the campaign would be enough, right?

sorry, just used to how KS call those campaigns projectsXD
but yes, i do mean just the crowdfunding campaign

[N-Forza]

I think a bit of clarification needs to be made regarding online distribution. There's digital distribution and just selling stuff through an online store.

The first one is out, but only if you sell through a store meant for Japanese access. If you can make purchases from outside Japan, awesome, but more than likely, you'll either need to know some amount of Japanese or be in the community enough to have access to guides on how to navigate the store. Therefore, you'd have enough knowledge of Touhou to realize that whatever you're downloading is a fanwork. The reason why ZUN doesn't allow digital sales of fanworks is because it's too easy to stumble upon it with no prior knowledge.

As for the second one, you can certainly sell physical copies of your game through an online store. D.N.A. does it at least, and it wouldn't surprise me if some of the larger circles do as well. Naturally, you have to state that your game/album is a fan work and properly credit ZUN, but that's about it.

[aUsernameIsFineToo]

There's digital distribution and just selling stuff through an online store.

Thanks for pointing that out. Correct me if I'm wrong, but "digital distribution" would mean hosted the game on third-party websites for sale, and therefore "selling stuff through an online store" means an independently-owned and managed website, yes?

Even if downloads through an independent site isn't allowed (though I don't see how it shouldn't be according to ZUN's guidelines, see my earlier post where I give an example) many people would have no problem with the game shipped to them on a CD.

[Colticide]

I think what's meant is sites like melonbooks DL as opposed to places like steam or gog or the like right?

[N-Forza]

In the case of digital distribution aimed at an audience wider than Japan, it doesn't matter who owns the store/site. Even if it's your own webpage, if you make it available to download, you have to give it away or treat it as "donationware".

For physical media, it can be from any store that sells doujin works (i.e. Diverse Direct sells a few Touhou rearrangement albums, and they ship worldwide) or your own private shop.

[aUsernameIsFineToo]

In the case of digital distribution aimed at an audience wider than Japan, it doesn't matter who owns the store/site. Even if it's your own webpage, if you make it available to download, you have to give it away or treat it as "donationware".

For physical media, it can be from any store that sells doujin works (i.e. Diverse Direct sells a few Touhou rearrangement albums, and they ship worldwide) or your own private shop.

I see... Which is why all the English RPGMaker Touhou games are all free.



The only way Touhou fangames will EVER be legally distributed through something like Steam will be if ZUN starts selling his own games through it. Only then will fangames follow suit, but even that's going to take a while after official games start selling. And the former is already a slim possibility.

I see that what matters is that the service-using population understands what Touhou is, so as to not mistake fangames for official games.

[Alcoraiden]

Yeah, IIRC, ZUN is not considering Steam, but he is pondering the idea of digital distribution for his games in *some* fashion.

(Also, insanely belated apology for my Google Translate fail earlier in the thread. Gah. I'll not do that again.)

[aUsernameIsFineToo]

Yeah, IIRC, ZUN is not considering Steam, but he is pondering the idea of digital distribution for his games in *some* fashion.

Yep, I've known about that for a while now, thanks to this forum. I know some people might be collectors of the physical media, but to me, buying the games digitally definitely beats buying them through Amazon, paying for shipping, and waiting for delivery. Depending on whether the seller is U.S. or Japan-based, that could take anywhere from days to weeks. I've even had one order that took a month-and-a-half, sitting at customs for several days with no update!

[Alcoraiden]

I'm a weird case, but I don't have an optical drive so of course I'm all for digital downloads. XD

[aUsernameIsFineToo]

I usually install the game on my desktop computer first, and copy the game onto my CD-drive-less laptop afterwards. A bit of a hassle, but it's still nowhere as much as the shipping thing I mentioned earlier.