Author Topic: Touhou Smash crowdfunding and ZUN's fancreation rules (discussion thread)  (Read 214138 times)

Colticide

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Re: Touhou Smash crowdfunding and ZUN's fancreation rules (discussion thread)
« Reply #300 on: January 18, 2015, 01:14:49 AM »
I've been trying to follow this but I'm getting kind of confused. I can understand some criticism about what FSS has done (or failed to do) but everyone's making it seem like this is a huge deal. As far as I can see, if ZUN shuts down this project the only people who have anything to lose are FSS and maybe the people who contributed money (and even then, that's only if FSS runs off with all the money). It'd be a shame if this game doesn't get done but if it doesn't we haven't really lost anything.

If it's about reputation, AFAIK nothing like this has happened in the west before. Plus stuff like this has happened before in the east, so I'd like to believe ZUN would view this as an isolated incident and not hold it against everyone. And even if he does it doesn't seem like he's been very willing to deal with the west in the first place, so again, I don't see what we're losing (or why this is such a big deal). I feel like I'm missing something here...

No your right, I don't know if it's cause all of this is happening in the same forum that I'm in or something else. But then again I was never a part of the Doublefine stuff and I get just as emotional about it, so I think it's just me.
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Re: Touhou Smash crowdfunding and ZUN's fancreation rules (discussion thread)
« Reply #301 on: January 18, 2015, 01:17:50 AM »
Just to be sure, I copied the conversation between monhan and Yonjin into Google Translate in Japanese-to-Chinese mode, and everything Yonjin wrote translated into almost-perfect Chinese. I'm probably going to assume that's going to be the case with any other East Asian language in the place of Chinese, which means it's very possible for someone fluent in English and another East Asian language to translate these conversations. (Nope)

EDIT: Idioms and figures of speech used in Japanese might not translate too well, but the meaning is still easy to deduce. What matters is that grammatical correctness is near-perfect.

it doesn't seem like he's been very willing to deal with the west in the first place

I'm not too sure about that...

No your right, I don't know if it's cause all of this is happening in the same forum that I'm in or something else. But then again I was never a part of the Doublefine stuff and I get just as emotional about it, so I think it's just me.

It's perfectly fine to get emotional over something you want to happen that ends up getting interrupted mid-way.
« Last Edit: January 18, 2015, 02:04:38 AM by aUsernameIsFineToo »

tohosubs

  • Admin: persceaux
Re: Touhou Smash crowdfunding and ZUN's fancreation rules (discussion thread)
« Reply #302 on: January 18, 2015, 01:52:54 AM »
I'm still not sure if I want to get too involved in this, but it seems we really need a decent translation of the conversation between monhan and Yonjin. I'll start translating it now and will edit this post when I have it done. N-Forza, cuc, or anyone else, please let me know if you're already on it.

[edit] I wrote a new reply instead. See below.
« Last Edit: January 18, 2015, 03:08:42 AM by tohosubs »
English subtitles for Touhou derivative works from Nico, translated and reprinted on YouTube with the creators' permission. The admin is a native JP/EN speaker.
/r/touhou wiki's Nico Portal

Re: Touhou Smash crowdfunding and ZUN's fancreation rules (discussion thread)
« Reply #303 on: January 18, 2015, 01:55:21 AM »
everything Yonjin wrote translated into perfect Chinese.
NO. No no no no no no. No it does not.
I'm probably going to assume that's going to be the case with any other East Asian language in the place of Chinese, which means it's very possible for someone fluent in English and another East Asian language to translate these conversations.

EDIT: Idioms and figures of speech used in Japanese might not translate too well, but the meaning is still easy to deduce. What matters is that grammatical correctness is near-perfect.
English and Chinese have surprisingly similar grammar patterns, word orders, and sentence structures, and both are Subject-Verb-Object (SVO) languages.
As a result, using Google translate between English and Chinese is relatively accurate.
On the other hand, Japanese is SOV, and is not grammatically similar to either languages.

English, Chinese, and Japanese languages each belong in three discrete language families (Germanic, Sino-Tibetan, and Japonic), and have developed differently from each other.
China's influence on Japanese is largely limited to vocabulary and writing, but not grammar.
And learning the grammar of another language is what's hard. Vocabulary is relatively easy to learn.
Incidentally, that's why Japanese students are generally quite bad at English.

And when dealing with sensitive matters like this, grammatical and cultural nuances are very important.

Half assing translations that handwave these nuances, and thus leading to discussions based on incorrect assumptions will do no one any good.

Re: Touhou Smash crowdfunding and ZUN's fancreation rules (discussion thread)
« Reply #304 on: January 18, 2015, 02:03:24 AM »
I stand corrected.

Hmm... I guess it depends on how accurate you truly want it. I'll say that even between Japanese and Chinese, Google isn't 100% accurate, but from my experiences it's better than Japanese-to-English. Maybe it's because I'm more aware of the nuances of English than Chinese, so I tend to be more picky about X-to-English translations.

Whatever the case, I'd say it's best to leave serious translation to the English-and-Japanese fluent people.
« Last Edit: January 18, 2015, 02:04:59 AM by aUsernameIsFineToo »

N-Forza

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Re: Touhou Smash crowdfunding and ZUN's fancreation rules (discussion thread)
« Reply #305 on: January 18, 2015, 02:37:44 AM »
There are no "haters" in this picture and nothing about double standards. EVEN IN JAPAN every commercial attempt to release a Touhou-related project without ZUN's OK got shut down, like that one Animate cartoon a while back.

In monhan's conversation, Yonjin mentioned (JUST LIKE I DID. IN FACT, A LOT OF WHAT YONJIN SAID IS A LOT OF WHAT I SAID) that ZUN is a very busy man and rarely finds the time to answer inquiries from fans. However, that there is a way to contact ZUN for commercial purposes and he will contact you in a more timely manner, but it did not happen here.

I know some people are sour about the fact that westerners have to conform to Japanese standards to get anything done, but consider this: if we showed that we could play by the rules, maybe ZUN would relax the standards a bit more to make it more easily accessible. But this really wouldn't be doing much to convince him.

And I can understand the need to get a demo out, but that probably should've been done beforehand.

Re: Touhou Smash crowdfunding and ZUN's fancreation rules (discussion thread)
« Reply #306 on: January 18, 2015, 02:41:03 AM »
There are no "haters" in this picture and nothing about double standards.

Sorry about that, what happened was a mistranslation that led me (and possibly others) to believe otherwise. It should be cleared up now, though.

tohosubs

  • Admin: persceaux
Re: Touhou Smash crowdfunding and ZUN's fancreation rules (discussion thread)
« Reply #307 on: January 18, 2015, 03:08:56 AM »
A translation of the transcript from monhan's message. I've tried to accurately translate the nuances. (I've only made minor edits since I first posted this.)

Yonjin
この件については昨日知ったぐらいですね
I only learned about this [the controversy about Touhou Smash] yesterday.

そして彼と何回かリプライの応酬をしたぐらいです
All I've done [regarding this matter] is exchange a few emails with him.

同人界隈には、定期的に原作の権利を侵害をするような事件がたまにあります。 なのであまり珍しくはないとも感じます。
Cases involving infringement of the rights of source works do happen regularly in the doujin world, so I don't feel that this is a particularly special case.

ただ今回は海外の、いち同人ファンの暴走と見るべきか、東方の同人の権利について無知なファンが引き起こした事件なのか、権利意識の低さによる海賊行為なのか、判断がまだつかないところです。
But I'm still unsure how I should view the present case: as a case of a doujin fan running amok, as an incident caused by a fan who doesn't understand what is allowed in Touhou doujin, or as an act of piracy resulting from a lack of respect for intellectual property.

Me
こういう件も前にあったんですか?日本にでも?
Were there cases like this before, even in Japan?

Yonjin
いくらでもあります。
Oh sure, plenty.

東方ガイドラインにはアニメ制作を禁じているにも関わらず、勝手に公式を名乗ってアニメを販売しようとして、最終的に中止になったり
Someone once tried to make and sell an anime as an official work of Touhou, even though the Touhou guidelines forbid the production of anime. This was canceled in the end.

東方Projectの称号を同人ショップが乗っ取ろうとしたり
[TL note: Yonjin presumably meant 商号 here.]
One doujin shop tried to claim the Touhou Project trademark.

他にも勝手に"公式"を名乗ろうとする人達は居て、その都度ZUNやファンが対応しました。
There have been others who claimed to be official without any permission, and each time, ZUN or the fans responded accordingly.

今回の件も、ある種それに似た行為として捉える事ができます。
Touhou Smash can also be seen as a similar case.

そもそも、同人とは本来、著作権的に非合法と合法の中間に位置する行為です。
First of all, doujin is something that stands somewhere in between legality and illegality in terms of copyright.

東方Projectの繁栄は、その曖昧な同人活動に対して、東方ガイドラインという明確な指標を示すことで、同人作品を合法かつ公正に認める事が画期的でした。
[TL note: The relation among the phrases here is a bit unclear. What I've given is my best guess.]
The Touhou Project was revolutionary in that it recognized doujin works both legally and justly by providing a clear guideline, the Touhou guidelines, for this grey zone that is doujin. This is what allowed the Touhou Project to thrive.

今回の事件は東方ガイドラインを破る行為で、これは東方同人コミュニティとして拒絶されるべき行為です。
The present case is a violation of the Touhou guidelines. This is an action that ought to be rejected by the Touhou doujin community.

また、クラウドファンディングを利用して資本を集めることは、そもそも『同人活動ではない』とみなされます。 それは商業活動であり、つまり著作権侵害の海賊行為とみなされます。
Also, crowdfunding is considered to be outside the scope of doujin activities. It's a commercial activity, hence an infringement of copyright and an act of piracy.

Me
ええ、それはよく聞く話です。だから同人に関わる?犯罪?などどうやるべきもよくわからない。 でもそれは海外だけの話と思ったな。まさか日本にもそんなにあるとはなあ
Yes, I hear that often. That's why it's not clear how people should deal with act of crimes related to doujin.1 But I thought that was only overseas. I had no idea it also happened in Japan.

Yonjin
ガイドラインを守る限り、同人活動は合法です。 しかし日本にも利益のためにガイドラインを蔑ろにする人は出てきます。
Doujin activities are legal as long as they follow the guidelines. But even in Japan, there are those who ignore it for profit.

また、クラウドファンディングを利用して資本を集めることは、そもそも『同人活動ではない』とみなされます。 それは商業活動であり、つまり著作権侵害の海賊行為とみなされます。
[TL note: Same line as before]

Me
では,クラウドファンディング以外でもその権利のことも問題ですか? 他にまだまだいけない事あるんですか?
How about issues besides crowdfunding and copyright?2 Are there other things that are problematic here?

Yonjin
東方ガイドライン違反
・同人文化や東方Projectを知らない人も利用する場(Indiegogo)にZUNの許可なく露出させた。 これはクラウドファンディングでないサービスでも批難されます。
・Indiegogoのページ、ZUNのクレジットが明記されていない。 彼は「以前は表示をされていた」「宣伝動画の途中に触れている」とツィートしていましたが、誰の目に見てすぐにわかるようでなければガイドライン違反です。
・また現時点においては同人作品のダウンロード販売は認められていません。 これについては、今の状況に合わせてガイドラインを更新してもいいと思いますが、だからといってガイドラインを破る行為は同人活動から逸脱します。
Violations of the Touhou guidelines:
* They exposed the Touhou Project without ZUN's permission in a forum (Indiegogo) used by people who are unfamiliar with the doujin culture or the Touhou Project. This will invite criticism even when the service used is not crowdfunding.
* The Indiegogo page does not clearly credit ZUN. Saijee tweeted earlier that it used to be shown and that he mentioned it in the trailer, but if it's not immediately clear to anyone who visits the page, it's against the guidelines.
* Also, offering download sales of doujin works is currently not permitted. I do think that the guidelines could perhaps use an update given the situation today, but any action violating the guidelines still takes one outside the scope of doujin.

海外に同人ショップを構えたり利用するのが難しかったり、同人イベントを開催したり参加したりするのが難しい現状は想像できます。 しかしガイドラインについて相談する前に違反してしまえば対話は不可能です。
I can see that it may be difficult overseas to set up or use a doujin shop, or to hold or participate in doujin events. But if you violate the guidelines without any prior consultation, there's no possibility for a discussion.

もっともダウンロード販売は実際にやってる人もいるので、曖昧かつグレーではあります。しかしガイドライン違反で褒められることではありません
Of course, there are people who offer download sales, so it's true that that's a grey zone. But no one will praise you for a guideline violation.

なので問題点を整理すると
・クラウドファンディングで出資を集めた。(同人活動は非営利が前提)
・同人や東方を知らない人達の集まる場に同人作品を出した。(ガイドライン違反)
・現時点で認められないダウンロード販売を公言した。(ガイドライン違反) この3つでしょうか
So to summarize the problems:
* They used crowdfunding. (Non-commercial is a given for doujin activities)
* They put out a doujin work where there are people who aren't familiar with doujin or Touhou. (guideline violation)
* Announced download sales, which is not currently allowed. (guideline violation) I would say these three.

Me
うむ,結構多いな。説明してありがとうYonjinさん。 返事が遅くと少なくってごめん。今もまだこの件について私たちの中で話しています。
That's more than I thought. Thank you for explaining, Yonjin. Sorry my replies are late and short. We're still discussing this case among ourselves.

Yonjin
悲しいことに、これらは同人活動や東方ガイドラインに対する無理解や不勉強が根本的な原因に思われます。 気づいて貰うと彼と会話しましたが、残念ながら失敗したようです。
Unfortunately, the problem seems to come down to their lack of understanding of doujin activities and the Touhou guidelines. I talked to him hoping that he would realize this, but it seems I was unsuccessful.

おっと

取り急ぎ、多いですが今回の事件に対する自分の意見です
I know that was quite a lot, but that's my opinion on this matter.

ついでに話すと、今回の事件に対するひとつの解決策としては
1. Indiegogoを中止する
2. 東方ProjectのFANしかいないクローズな場で説明する
3. クローズな場でdonationwareとして無料で公開し募金を募る。
です
And I may as well mention: One solution to this case would be to
1. cancel Indiegogo,
2. provide an explanation in a non-public setting where there are only fans of the Touhou Project,
3. and offer it for free as a donationware in a non-public setting.

Me
そういえば,Yonjinさん自身は東方の同人世界の中で,何者ですか? 東方界隈が主な生息域っと書いたけど,正直まだわからない。失礼ならばごめんなさい
By the way, what is your position in the world of Touhou doujin? You wrote that you're mostly active in Touhou, but I honestly can't really tell. Sorry if this is a rude question.

Yonjin
自分はただの一人の東方ファンですよ。ZUNや黄昏の作品を買い、東方同人作品を買い、たまに同人作品のイベント用ページやサービスを作ったりします。かれこれ10年以上経ちますね
I'm just a Touhou fan. I buy ZUN and Tasogare's works and Touhou doujin works, and I sometimes make websites and services for doujin events. I've been doing that for 10+ years now.

Me
ZUNさんと係ることがあるんですか?
Do you ever interact with ZUN?

Yonjin
ただのファンなのでイベントで顔を見るくらいで、係るという程はないですね
I'm just a fan, so I just see him at events. I don't really interact with him.

また基本的にZUNは個別にファンと関わることは極めて少ないです。 彼の監修する本や作品の出版社や、同人活動ではなく個人的な繋がりを尊重する人とも聞きます。
It's extremely rare for ZUN to interact with fans individually. I also hear that he's someone who values personal relations, such as with the publisher of the books and other works he oversees, more than doujin activities.

なのでいくらZUNに個人としてメールで連絡しようとしても、恐らく回答はないと思います。 企業として責任を明示して窓口に問い合わせるなら別でしょうけど
So no matter how much you try to contact him via email as an individual, I don't think you will get a reply. Of course, I imagine it's a different matter if you approach the appropriate contact as an actual business.

Me
勿論この事は彼らにきっちり伝えてやる。ZUNさんにまでこれ以上の迷惑かけたくないな。
I'll tell all of this very clearly to those guys, of course. I don't want to trouble ZUN any further.

Yonjin
海外にも貴方のように同人文化について熱心に理解しようと努力する人が居るのは、東方Projectが海や国境を越えたことを感じてとても嬉しいです。
I'm very glad that there are people like you overseas who make a genuine effort to understand the doujin culture. It shows how the Touhou Project has spread across national borders.

彼らの行いは不幸な出来事ですが、こうして貴方と対話が出来たのは幸運です。
What they did was unfortunate, but I'm glad I was able to talk to you like this.

また彼らの行いが、東方Projectや同人の文化が正しく理解されるキッカケになることを願います。
And I hope that what they did will lead to a better understanding of the Touhou Project and the doujin culture.

長々と失礼しました
Sorry to have rambled on.

おそらく、悪意がなかったのは確かで、彼も東方ファンの一人なのだと思います。しかし無理解と不勉強が今回の事件を起こしたのだと思います。 失敗は仕方ないです、誰でもします。
I do believe that he meant no harm, and that he too is a fan of Touhou. I think what caused this case is his lack of effort to understand. But mistakes do happen. Everyone makes mistakes.

大事なのは同人活動や東方ガイドライン対する姿勢です。 もし彼らがこのまま姿勢を変えずに、東方ガイドラインを蔑ろにするのであれば、彼らは東方ファンから海賊行為をする犯罪者になります。 彼らが考えや姿勢を改めることを願います。
What matters is the attitude towards doujin activities and the Touhou guidelines. If they don't change their attitude and continue to ignore the guidelines, then they're criminals who pirate off of Touhou fans. I hope that they will change their attitude and way of thinking.

___
1, 2 monhan sent me these lines.
« Last Edit: January 18, 2015, 08:35:01 AM by tohosubs »
English subtitles for Touhou derivative works from Nico, translated and reprinted on YouTube with the creators' permission. The admin is a native JP/EN speaker.
/r/touhou wiki's Nico Portal

ZXNova

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Re: Touhou Smash crowdfunding and ZUN's fancreation rules (discussion thread)
« Reply #308 on: January 18, 2015, 03:16:06 AM »
]It feels like there's too much drama being thrown around. 

Right now the best thing we can do is see if ZUN approves of disapproves of TSSB.

I really don't believe Saijee would withhold information on TSSB being canceled, because I'm certain he would make a video and create a message on how he messed up.

But if he was approved, we would more than certain get a message (probably very quickly) on how the game was approved.

So how can the current status of TSSB be summed up?

'Just wait and see'.

If it fails, many fans will be disappointed. But seeing as how popular this project became, someone might decide to resurrect the project but not make all the mistakes Saijee did.

But until then, the best we can do is wait and see.


So from what I'm reading in the above post (thank you touhousubs for being a great translator), it is possible to still save the project?
« Last Edit: January 18, 2015, 03:22:04 AM by ZXNova »

Flandre5carlet

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Re: Touhou Smash crowdfunding and ZUN's fancreation rules (discussion thread)
« Reply #309 on: January 18, 2015, 03:17:04 AM »
Cheers for the translation!

ZXNova

  • Life is an explosion!
Re: Touhou Smash crowdfunding and ZUN's fancreation rules (discussion thread)
« Reply #310 on: January 18, 2015, 03:26:58 AM »
I really think Saijee needs to see that message asap.

Re: Touhou Smash crowdfunding and ZUN's fancreation rules (discussion thread)
« Reply #311 on: January 18, 2015, 03:31:56 AM »
<transcript>

As someone who watches your subbed videos on YouTube, I know you'd "come to the rescue" with a decent translation of the conversation. Hopefully nothing too drastic takes place, but if it does I hope everyone understands why and acts accordingly.

I really think Saijee needs to see that message asap.

Yes, he does.

Re: Touhou Smash crowdfunding and ZUN's fancreation rules (discussion thread)
« Reply #312 on: January 18, 2015, 03:36:41 AM »
I really think Saijee needs to see that message asap.

Has anybody been able to contact him?

Re: Touhou Smash crowdfunding and ZUN's fancreation rules (discussion thread)
« Reply #313 on: January 18, 2015, 03:47:01 AM »
Has anybody been able to contact him?
His Facebook page and Twitter account are a possible way to do it (he's been active the whole day). I'd do it but I don't think I'm the most diplomatic person for this sort of thing.

Still, he has been posting on this board up until the proverbial crud hit the fan so I'd expect he'd have seen this by now.....

Colticide

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Re: Touhou Smash crowdfunding and ZUN's fancreation rules (discussion thread)
« Reply #314 on: January 18, 2015, 03:58:26 AM »
Yonjin was very helpful and also very kind and understanding as well. Good on him! He did take quite a lot from the frontlines so glad he wasn't really effected by this.

So from what I'm reading in the above post (thank you touhousubs for being a great translator), it is possible to still save the project?

There's always a way, the guidelines where pretty clear cut. If what I'm reading is correct, he doesn't have permission to sell the game so the best he can do is a free version, HOWEVER if he does contact ZUN through business means and waits for a response and cancels the indiegogo campaign then I'm fairly sure they will be fine. The other issue would be that DL sites should be off limits for the time being (Unless otherwise said by ZUN), they might have to sell a physical copy at cons or doujin event's (Like Touhoucon). This is what I can think of anyway. 
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Tengukami

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Re: Touhou Smash crowdfunding and ZUN's fancreation rules (discussion thread)
« Reply #315 on: January 18, 2015, 04:08:05 AM »
FWIW, I messaged FSS, linking him directly to the translation with an urgent statement. Ball's in his court now.

"Human history and growth are both linked closely to strife. Without conflict, humanity would have no impetus for growth. When humans are satisfied with their present condition, they may as well give up on life."

Re: Touhou Smash crowdfunding and ZUN's fancreation rules (discussion thread)
« Reply #316 on: January 18, 2015, 04:20:41 AM »
Announced download sales, which is not currently allowed.

[...]

offer it for free as a donation ware in a non-public setting.

I'm actually curious as to whether offering the game on a privately-hosted server would be legal. Donationware is quite common nowadays, and since Yonjin wrote that himself (in English, too) I'm assuming he means that sales on well-known websites is illegal, while literally giving away the game would be legal. I also believe that fans will, in fact, donate to FSS, as evidenced by the campaign going on so far.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it looks like the whole situation could be fixed if the indiegogo campaign is stopped, an apology made, and the game released for free as donationware.

Re: Touhou Smash crowdfunding and ZUN's fancreation rules (discussion thread)
« Reply #317 on: January 18, 2015, 04:22:01 AM »
FWIW, I messaged FSS, linking him directly to the translation with an urgent statement. Ball's in his court now.

Good job. Let's hope he makes the right decision.

Tengukami

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Re: Touhou Smash crowdfunding and ZUN's fancreation rules (discussion thread)
« Reply #318 on: January 18, 2015, 04:27:35 AM »
Correct me if I'm wrong, but it looks like the whole situation could be fixed if the indiegogo campaign is stopped, an apology made, and the game released for free as donationware.

With credit to ZUN on the download page, and in a non-public (more specifically, in Touhou fan space) arena. Yes, that's what I gather, too, more or  less.

"Human history and growth are both linked closely to strife. Without conflict, humanity would have no impetus for growth. When humans are satisfied with their present condition, they may as well give up on life."

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Re: Touhou Smash crowdfunding and ZUN's fancreation rules (discussion thread)
« Reply #319 on: January 18, 2015, 04:28:50 AM »
There's always a way, the guidelines where pretty clear cut. If what I'm reading is correct, he doesn't have permission to sell the game so the best he can do is a free version, HOWEVER if he does contact ZUN through business means and waits for a response and cancels the indiegogo campaign then I'm fairly sure they will be fine. The other issue would be that DL sites should be off limits for the time being (Unless otherwise said by ZUN), they might have to sell a physical copy at cons or doujin event's (Like Touhoucon). This is what I can think of anyway.
Mass distribution is a problem by itself, even if the campaign is generally geared towards Touhou fans. A free version would be something to put on a personal webpage, just as you would a demo, and leave it as donationware. However, I really don't think it would be very difficult to find people to sell the game at conventions by proxy, and we already have at least one person willing to sell it at japanese doujin events.

I'm actually curious as to whether offering the game on a privately-hosted server would be legal. Donationware is quite common nowadays, and since Yonjin wrote that himself (in English, too) I'm assuming he means that sales on well-known websites is illegal, while literally giving away the game would be legal. I also believe that fans will, in fact, donate to FSS, as evidenced by the campaign going on so far.
See above. This is pretty standard. The difference between offering a game on a massive scale and for free on a personal site (where anyone could just link to) is largely the issue of spreading it to people who know nothing of Touhou. This is especially the case where Shanghai Alice isn't properly credited. Also, while I do think many people will donate, including myself, a large portion of donations were made simply to reap the tier benefits, and despite what we'd like to think, people aren't nearly as motivated to spend money if they already have it for free right in front of them.
« Last Edit: January 18, 2015, 04:30:58 AM by Drake »

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Re: Touhou Smash crowdfunding and ZUN's fancreation rules (discussion thread)
« Reply #320 on: January 18, 2015, 04:48:40 AM »
Mass distribution is a problem by itself, even if the campaign is generally geared towards Touhou fans. A free version would be something to put on a personal webpage, just as you would a demo, and leave it as donationware. However, I really don't think it would be very difficult to find people to sell the game at conventions by proxy, and we already have at least one person willing to sell it at japanese doujin events.
See above. This is pretty standard. The difference between offering a game on a massive scale and for free on a personal site (where anyone could just link to) is largely the issue of spreading it to people who know nothing of Touhou. This is especially the case where Shanghai Alice isn't properly credited. Also, while I do think many people will donate, including myself, a large portion of donations were made simply to reap the tier benefits, and despite what we'd like to think, people aren't nearly as motivated to spend money if they already have it for free right in front of them.

All very true! I'm a bit confused about the personal site thing. Would he be allowed to put the full game on his site (or sell it if he had permission to) or is that only for a demo and the game needs to be on a douji like platform (bad wording but its the best I can thin up of).

As odd as it kinda is, would donations be considered OK? Technically if you think about it indiegogo and donation could be boiled down to the same thing but donations (to me at least) seems perfectly fine. Is that weird? I feel like I'm contradicting myself a bit. 
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Re: Touhou Smash crowdfunding and ZUN's fancreation rules (discussion thread)
« Reply #321 on: January 18, 2015, 04:49:56 AM »
Even Yonjin said that donationware was a legit method, although doing it online would still likely cause issues.

Re: Touhou Smash crowdfunding and ZUN's fancreation rules (discussion thread)
« Reply #322 on: January 18, 2015, 04:56:22 AM »
Technically if you think about it indiegogo and donation could be boiled down to the same thing but donations (to me at least) seems perfectly fine. Is that weird? I feel like I'm contradicting myself a bit.
Indiegogo provides the kind of exposure that would mean people with no familiarity with Touhou could come across the project (which ZUN disapproves of in his guidelines). On the other hand, it's unlikely someone will come across a personal website if they don't already know what Touhou is (because, why would they be there in the first place if that's not the case?). At least, that's how I understand it.

Re: Touhou Smash crowdfunding and ZUN's fancreation rules (discussion thread)
« Reply #323 on: January 18, 2015, 05:03:11 AM »
while I do think many people will donate, including myself, a large portion of donations were made simply to reap the tier benefits, and despite what we'd like to think, people aren't nearly as motivated to spend money if they already have it for free right in front of them.

Now that you mention it, and that I think about it, it's highly likely that a few dedicated people end up donating for the creation of new features, and that the majority freeload off them. That leaves the alternative, which involves burning CDs and selling them at various conventions. I believe that in Japan, Touhou merchandise can often be found in their equivalent of the U.S.' "comic-book stores". So would it be legal for FSS to sell the game through independently-owned manga/anime stores here in the States?
« Last Edit: January 18, 2015, 05:11:41 AM by aUsernameIsFineToo »

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Re: Touhou Smash crowdfunding and ZUN's fancreation rules (discussion thread)
« Reply #324 on: January 18, 2015, 05:08:54 AM »
Now that you mention it, and that I think about it, it's highly likely that a few dedicated people end up donating for the creation of new features, and that the majority freeload off them. That leaves the alternative, which involves burning CDs and selling them at various conventions. I believe that in Japan, Touhou merchandise can often be found in their equivalent of the U.S.' "comic-book stores". So would it be legal for FSS to sell the game through independently-owned manga/anime stores here in the States?

I really wish I knew exactly what is allowed and what isn't, but I'd say (again if they have permission to sell it) the store would have to be considered under the doujin guidelines, ... how you find out if it is I've no idea...
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Re: Touhou Smash crowdfunding and ZUN's fancreation rules (discussion thread)
« Reply #325 on: January 18, 2015, 05:11:55 AM »
If I remember correctly, I've seen official Touhou manga, and even games in original shrink-wrapped CD-ROM format at shops of that sort. It's most likely a reseller thing going on, but at least the content creators are getting income from this process. However, stores like that are rare, and only found in large cities with a relatively large Asian population.
« Last Edit: January 18, 2015, 05:13:31 AM by aUsernameIsFineToo »

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Re: Touhou Smash crowdfunding and ZUN's fancreation rules (discussion thread)
« Reply #326 on: January 18, 2015, 05:13:19 AM »
I'm curious about the definition of public for doujin works. Specifically I don't understand how toranoana and melonbooks don't count, especially in the internet age, or is the guideline for not selling where the public can see specifically for digital works? 

Re: Touhou Smash crowdfunding and ZUN's fancreation rules (discussion thread)
« Reply #327 on: January 18, 2015, 05:15:21 AM »
I'm curious about the definition of public for doujin works. Specifically I don't understand how toranoana and melonbooks don't count, especially in the internet age, or is the guideline for not selling where the public can see specifically for digital works? 

Just a wild guess, but I think toranoana and melonbooks have special agreements with ZUN, which is why they can sell what they do.

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Re: Touhou Smash crowdfunding and ZUN's fancreation rules (discussion thread)
« Reply #328 on: January 18, 2015, 05:17:22 AM »
If I remember correctly, I've seen official Touhou manga, and even games in original shrink-wrapped CD-ROM format at shops of that sort. It's most likely a reseller thing going on, but at least the content creators are getting income from this process.

If it's in the sates then those creators already got paid but the vendors of sorts. They buy thing to take back and resell is what I assume is happening.

I'm curious about the definition of public for doujin works. Specifically I don't understand how toranoana and melonbooks don't count, especially in the internet age, or is the guideline for not selling where the public can see specifically for digital works? 

Well isn't there a big movment to get doujin games on larger digital formats? (IE PlayDoijin!) So isn't those site just part of the changes for that?
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Re: Touhou Smash crowdfunding and ZUN's fancreation rules (discussion thread)
« Reply #329 on: January 18, 2015, 05:21:04 AM »
It might be something like that, as Toranoana and Melonbooks also sell Touhou games (though not online). Generally, people who would patronize those stores will know about Touhou anyway, is what I imagine the case is.

Playism is also valid as well, according to the guidelines.