Touhou Smash crowdfunding and ZUN's fancreation rules (discussion thread)

[Super Butterfly]

Can someone try to contact Saijee and force him to read this thread?

[Terrabreak]

>Says they contacted someone from team Shangai Alice who isnt ZUN
>Zun is the only member

I want to get off mr. Saijee wild ride.


EDIT: one f

[Disgaeafan1]

It's also means they haven't contacted anyone at Team Shanghai Alice since ZUN is it's only member! It's a one man team.

I think it could mean that they contacted whoever helps ZUN go through his emails. I think I read he had someone help him create that form somewhere, and I doubt he goes through all of them himself. I could be wrong though.

[Super Butterfly]

I think it could mean that they contacted whoever helps ZUN go through his emails. I think I read he had someone help him create that form somewhere, and I doubt he goes through all of them himself. I could be wrong though.

I know one of ZUN's acquaintances, and according to him, ZUN does have people read his emails for him.

[Savory]

It's also means they haven't contacted anyone at Team Shanghai Alice since ZUN is it's only member! It's a one man team.

Exactly. First Saijee says he contacted ZUN but hasn't gotten a response.

But now it wasn't ZUN he contacted but some other supposed member of this one-man team. So which is it?

[Daya]

I think it could mean that they contacted whoever helps ZUN go through his emails. I think I read he had someone help him create that form somewhere, and I doubt he goes through all of them himself. I could be wrong though.

I promised that I wouldn't show up lol, but there is someone that works with him (not like work WORK but) that sifts through his emails.

Considering his status, I'd figure someone would be sorting through it, otherwise his e-mail would just be useless all day.

But yeah, I recall someone does prod through his e-mail, specifically a form application ... but that's about it. *Shrug*

[Omegahugger]

Although the lack of response is troubling, I don't think it's quite fair to say nothing's been done. He could have been spending all of this time on the demo, or something behind the scenes.

But that's the problem. There are many outstanding issues that SHOULD have been resolved before the demo was released. Instead, Saijee skipped over the resolution of those issues and went ahead with development anyway. The problem, as I see it, is that he DID 'spend all of his time on the demo' (or maybe just most of it -- either way, it seems to have taken priority over the important issues).

I think it may be best to hold off on downloading this until Saijee AND someone connected with the eastern Touhou fandom can confirm the outstanding issues have been resolved or until Saijee takes the necessary steps to conform to ZUN's guidelines. The WTC and its developers's reputation is worth more than $20.7k + demo and as it stands it doesn't look like Saijee cares..... Someone has to. =/

Sorry, I'm just feeling upset at the direction this has been taking.....

[Colticide]

But that's the problem. There are many outstanding issues that SHOULD have been resolved before the demo was released. Instead, Saijee skipped over the resolution of those issues and went ahead with development anyway. The problem, as I see it, is that he DID 'spend all of his time on the demo' (or maybe just most of it -- either way, it seems to have taken priority over the important issues).

I think it may be best to hold off on downloading this until Saijee AND someone connected with the eastern Touhou fandom can confirm the outstanding issues have been resolved or until Saijee takes the necessary steps to conform to ZUN's guidelines. The WTC and its developers's reputation is worth more than $20.7k + demo and as it stands it doesn't look like Saijee cares..... Someone has to. =/

Sorry, I'm just feeling upset at the direction this has been taking.....

I feel you on this, I really want answers for all the information that has come out but if we can't get anything on the status of all of this then I really gotta say that I'll be done with this game. I can't support a game and it's developers if they can't respect copyright issues and just continue to force their game out in a manner that A LOT of people are saying to not do.

[Suspicious person]

Saijee, what the hell are you playing at on your Facebook page?

Well, I guess Saijee might've misunderstood how Touhou doujin works... The indie and doujin method, although similar, are really different : crowdfunding and mainstream distribution platforms may be alright for indie related stuff, but the doujins are more DIYish and rely on more "obscure" means such as doujin specialised channels... and the Touhou guideline only take doujin standards into account: the japanese community have melonbooks, tora no ana and stuff for the distribution of their work but the "overseas people" don't have any elaborate way of distribution for their work... Sure, there are doujin games on steam, but it'll be seen as mainstream distribution channel regardless. I believe Saijee planning to get this game on steam (not Wii U anymore I guess) might make sense this way while in fact it's simply a No-go by Touhou guidelines, and the Japanese community will seriously consider this as an attempt to make a Touhou product commercial or milking money with Touhou's name value...

The Guidlines to Touhou need to be updated.

The numbers of "overseas people" fanwork do not compare to that of the Japanese community, I highly doubt that ZUN'll change his guidelines for one "exception"... especially since there are "oversea people" following the rules.

Saijee, I'm no specialist in this matter and I'm not telling you what to do, but you should seriously consider Mr N-Forza's proposition. Building hype, making promises and showing off the progress you made are fine and all but do remember that one "NO" from ZUN and you'll pretty much have wasted your time these few months... and the way you are doing things right now is all but conform to the established rules. You're asking for it. You've been warned several times. MotK people are willing to give you advice on this matter, some transparency from your part would not hurt... This project is way too ambitious and rushed than it should be to begin with... Be reasonable and do what should be done before ZUN take an official "NO" stance on this matter.

[Suspicious person]

But that's the problem. There are many outstanding issues that SHOULD have been resolved before the demo was released. Instead, Saijee skipped over the resolution of those issues and went ahead with development anyway. The problem, as I see it, is that he DID 'spend all of his time on the demo' (or maybe just most of it -- either way, it seems to have taken priority over the important issues).

I think it may be best to hold off on downloading this until Saijee AND someone connected with the eastern Touhou fandom can confirm the outstanding issues have been resolved or until Saijee takes the necessary steps to conform to ZUN's guidelines. The WTC and its developers's reputation is worth more than $20.7k + demo and as it stands it doesn't look like Saijee cares..... Someone has to. =/

Sorry, I'm just feeling upset at the direction this has been taking.....

Daaaaaamn. Is it even possible to bail out of the whole crowdfunding mess at this point? (No idea how Indiegogo works)

[Sparen]

He already has a $20000 profit.

[Alcoraiden]

(long snip, including Japanese discussion)

First off, if ZUN is just not going to reply, why is it in his guidelines to contact him for grey cases that aren't covered in the guidelines? It's awfully poor to say "please contact me" and then...well, not be contactable. Or at least odd. ZUN's copyright statements (and I'm reading them *right now*) say to *ask his permission.* I think someone who does this should explicitly answer instead of A) hoping that a lack of response is taken as a no, which is in no way clear because ZUN receives a zillion emails I'm sure, or B) leaving people hanging until the project kinda gets swept under the rug when he would have said yes. Yes, ZUN can do what he wants. No, I think "radio silence" is not good form here.

Two: the complaint from Yonjin about ZUN not allowing animations does not apply here, to be a bit pedantic. It's specifically 2d animations, and *explicitly* not 3d-rendered ones, that matter. This is in the actual copyrights document: "* By this I mean so-called "traditional cell animation"; computer-generated 3D animation and 2D illustrations with special effects processing aren't included in this restriction."

This is computer-generated 3d animation. It's not under that restriction.

Three: Wow, this all escalated quickly. People said "Saijee, you need a small demo," and Saijee obediently rushed to make it...now you're all complaining that he was spending too much time doing the demo you told him to make, when he blasted it out as quickly as he could, as per your instructions. So he rushed the small demo, and now everyone's demanding he just shut down everything and quit all this before he gets a response at all, if he will. You asked him to be proactive and try to have discussions, and then you got mad when he did and claimed he's totally wrecking the hell out of the Western fandom forever.  I'm unsurprised he isn't back here yet, because you all look like you will never be satisfied with anything he's doing. Nothing he does is good enough it seems.

IF ZUN says yes, he says yes, if ZUN says no, he says no. I'll throw out the horribly unpopular opinion here and say Saijee should see this through to a response, and then behave accordingly from there. ZUN is the lord of Touhou. ZUN is the one who matters here. And I would love to see the folks complaining in the East keep an open mind and give this kind of thing a chance. Saying "I'm glad there is international fandom but they have to do it our way" is...well, closed-minded if you ask me. (And I'm talking about the other folks involved in the conversation over there, not ZUN, since he hasn't said anything on the matter that we know.)

There is no guideline on Western indie style efforts, and I really think this whole debacle, once it's over, will have done us some good if a conclusion on that matter happens. Otherwise, it's a big hole waiting to be filled.

[Super Butterfly]

First off, if ZUN is just not going to reply, why is it in his guidelines to contact him for grey cases that aren't covered in the guidelines? It's awfully poor to say "please contact me" and then...well, not be contactable. Or at least odd. ZUN's copyright statements (and I'm reading them *right now*) say to *ask his permission.* I think someone who does this should explicitly answer instead of A) hoping that a lack of response is taken as a no, which is in no way clear because ZUN receives a zillion emails I'm sure, or B) leaving people hanging until the project kinda gets swept under the rug when he would have said yes. Yes, ZUN can do what he wants. No, I think "radio silence" is not good form here.

Two: the complaint from Yonjin about ZUN not allowing animations does not apply here, to be a bit pedantic. It's specifically 2d animations, and *explicitly* not 3d-rendered ones, that matter. This is in the actual copyrights document: "* By this I mean so-called "traditional cell animation"; computer-generated 3D animation and 2D illustrations with special effects processing aren't included in this restriction."

This is computer-generated 3d animation. It's not under that restriction.

Three: Wow, this all escalated quickly. People said "Saijee, you need a small demo," and Saijee obediently rushed to make it...now you're all complaining that he was spending too much time doing the demo you told him to make, when he blasted it out as quickly as he could, as per your instructions. So he rushed the small demo, and now everyone's demanding he just shut down everything and quit all this before he gets a response at all, if he will. You asked him to be proactive and try to have discussions, and then you got mad when he did and claimed he's totally wrecking the hell out of the Western fandom forever.  I'm unsurprised he isn't back here yet, because you all look like you will never be satisfied with anything he's doing. Nothing he does is good enough it seems.

IF ZUN says yes, he says yes, if ZUN says no, he says no. I'll throw out the horribly unpopular opinion here and say Saijee should see this through to a response, and then behave accordingly from there. ZUN is the lord of Touhou. ZUN is the one who matters here. And I would love to see the folks complaining in the East keep an open mind and give this kind of thing a chance. Saying "I'm glad there is international fandom but they have to do it our way" is...well, closed-minded if you ask me. (And I'm talking about the other folks involved in the conversation over there, not ZUN, since he hasn't said anything on the matter that we know.)

There is no guideline on Western indie style efforts, and I really think this whole debacle, once it's over, will have done us some good if a conclusion on that matter happens. Otherwise, it's a big hole waiting to be filled.

While you do have some points, a lot is on the line here, and Saijee, quite frankly, has been making some mindbogglingly stupid decisions (ex: implying that he's now considering a Wii U port shortly after that misunderstanding had been sorted out).

[aUsernameIsFineToo]

[...]milking money with Touhou's name value...

I think that's the scary (because it's very possible) reality with a franchise such as Touhou. Unless ZUN releases his own games through "mainstream" distribution channels, any attempt by fans to go beyond his distribution channels seems like they're doing it just because of the popularity their game will get. Touhou is gaining a large fan base already, and at this point simply releasing the game on PCs through an independently-hosted/doujin-oriented site will be enough. If players want to, they can use GameCube-to-USB converters for an "authentic" Smash experience. After all, it's safe to assume that all, if not the overwhelming majority of, Touhou players and fans have access to a computer, right? And unless ZUN makes up his mind as to whether his games will be released on something as prevalent in the gaming community as Steam, it should be common courtesy that third-party developers making derivatives through his already lax policies refrain from publishing their games through that.

the complaint from Yonjin about ZUN not allowing animations does not apply here

At this point, I think this "Yonjin" person is just a hater who's likely going to try and bash the project in every way possible. I don't want that to be the case, but his posts (at least what you translators claim them to be) look like they're strongly disapproving of this project.
Disregard that, an error in translation led me to believe that, but now the situation's been cleared up.

[Colticide]

Three: Wow, this all escalated quickly. People said "Saijee, you need a small demo," and Saijee obediently rushed to make it...now you're all complaining that he was spending too much time doing the demo you told him to make, when he blasted it out as quickly as he could, as per your instructions. So he rushed the small demo, and now everyone's demanding he just shut down everything and quit all this before he gets a response at all, if he will. You asked him to be proactive and try to have discussions, and then you got mad when he did and claimed he's totally wrecking the hell out of the Western fandom forever.  I'm unsurprised he isn't back here yet, because you all look like you will never be satisfied with anything he's doing. Nothing he does is good enough it seems.

If you had read from then myself and a few people said waiting for a demo once the issues are taken care of was no problem, many other suggested that what he should have done or should be doing is not indiegogo but make the small section of the game and sell it to make the profit needed to get where they are now. The problem is that even with the guidline thing you talked about it's not that ZUN is keeping quite about it but the issue is Saijee went ahead with the indiegogo before getting a response. The time it would take to get a answer back they could have continued development for the game themselves and once they had the greenlight from ZUN the game would be pretty developed at that point.

No offense but when you talk about close mindedness and get offended at us for all of this, I can't take someone who is invested in the game with actual money serious on what is said. It's very common for those who spend money on a product and defend it out of the fact they spent their own money on it.

[Kilgamayan]

At this point, I think this "Yonjin" person is just a hater who's likely going to try and bash the project in every way possible. I don't want that to be the case, but his posts (at least what you translators claim them to be) look like they're strongly disapproving of this project.

he's a member of the organizing party (service provider) for doujin events in Japan. He's in charge of making webpages and services for over 10 years. And thus, he is very knowledgeable regarding the whole doujin making rules of Touhou.

[aUsernameIsFineToo]

<explanation>

Yes, I read that post earlier, but there's also the complaint about "not allowing animations", which seems contradictory to the fact that he knows the rules regarding derivatives. I'm NOT accusing him of anything, I'm just pointing out that inconsistency. It just seems strange that he'd mention that when all the animations are clearly three-dimensional and computer-generated.

[Alcoraiden]

If you had read from then myself and a few people said waiting for a demo once the issues are taken care of was no problem, many other suggested that what he should have done or should be doing is not indiegogo but make the small section of the game and sell it to make the profit needed to get where they are now. The problem is that even with the guidline thing you talked about it's not that ZUN is keeping quite about it but the issue is Saijee went ahead with the indiegogo before getting a response. The time it would take to get a answer back they could have continued development for the game themselves and once they had the greenlight from ZUN the game would be pretty developed at that point.

No offense but when you talk about close mindedness and get offended at us for all of this, I can't take someone who is invested in the game with actual money serious on what is said. It's very common for those who spend money on a product and defend it out of the fact they spent their own money on it.

Okay, so you're accusing me of the Sunk Cost Fallacy. I honestly can't prove I am or am not in a certain mental state, so I really can't refute it even if I believe the money has nothing to do with it. Granted by that logic you are ruling out basically any supporter of the project, leaving only neutrals and detractors. Bit sketchy there if you ask me. But no, I am just a person with opinions on the project, and while yes, I do want this project to succeed, I am trying to address the underlying issues being discussed. I expected my money not to come back for any reason ranging from "Saijee ran off with my cash" to "the project succeeded" or whatever else. If you want to believe I am blinded, I am sure this will not convince you, but I encourage you not to sweep folks under the rug because they supported the project.

[Kilgamayan]

Yes, I read that post earlier, but there's also the complaint about "not allowing animations", which seems contradictory to the fact that he knows the rules regarding derivatives. I'm NOT accusing him of anything, I'm just pointing out that inconsistency. It just seems strange that he'd mention that when all the animations are clearly three-dimensional and computer-generated.

I'm not even sure where this "animations" thing came from. Did someone post a translation of his comments somewhere other than in this thread?

[Colticide]

I'm not even sure where this "animations" thing came from. Did someone post a translation of his comments somewhere other than in this thread?

Two: the complaint from Yonjin about ZUN not allowing animations does not apply here, to be a bit pedantic. It's specifically 2d animations, and *explicitly* not 3d-rendered ones, that matter. This is in the actual copyrights document: "* By this I mean so-called "traditional cell animation"; computer-generated 3D animation and 2D illustrations with special effects processing aren't included in this restriction."

This is computer-generated 3d animation. It's not under that restriction.

----------------------------------------------------
I am sorry but it's a trust issue that has happened to many times to count. But I'm not trying to pull the rug out from people, if they give correct information then it's all good but when people try and give an example as to why we are "unfair" and they are not accurate then it's hard to trust that person. Again I'm sorry I don't want to make anyone made but we can't have mistaken info floating around.

[aUsernameIsFineToo]

[...]

Yeah, that's the post I was bringing up.

[Colticide]

Yeah, that's the post I was bringing up.

My bad. 

[aUsernameIsFineToo]

My bad. 

No, thanks for posting it for me. I was making dinner anyways

[Kilgamayan]

Colticide: I saw that, but couldn't find where Alcor got that information, which is part of the reason I asked. (People were weren't questioning it at all, so I figured I missed something.)

[Colticide]

Colticide: I saw that, but couldn't find where Alcor got that information, which is part of the reason I asked. (People were weren't questioning it at all, so I figured I missed something.)

As far as I've seen it has yet to be translated on the thread. Nothing was said about it being translated anywhere else. (unless there was a edited post I missed.)

[akj]

Two: the complaint from Yonjin about ZUN not allowing animations does not apply here, to be a bit pedantic. It's specifically 2d animations, and *explicitly* not 3d-rendered ones, that matter. This is in the actual copyrights document: "* By this I mean so-called "traditional cell animation"; computer-generated 3D animation and 2D illustrations with special effects processing aren't included in this restriction."

This is computer-generated 3d animation. It's not under that restriction.

I've just finished reading the whole correspondence between monhan and Yonjin, and I have to make a post real quick to clear something up.
Maybe Alcoraiden ran the correspondence through Google translate, and that's what she got out of the text, but that is patently false.

The complaint about animations is MISINFORMATION.

Animations being an infringement of the guidelines is not a point being made.

Here's a rough summary of relevant parts from the correspondence.
- monhan asks Yonjin if such cases where ignorant fans ran wild, and created derivatives that infringed on the original creator's (copy)rights, had occurred in the past as well. Even in Japan?
- Yonjin alludes to a few cases in the past.
- One such case involved fans that wilfully created an animation product, labelled it as official, and attempted to sell it, despite it blatantly against the terms of use stipulated by ZUN.
- The terms in which case involved the creation of Touhou anime.
- It was eventually shut down.

And that was the only time animations were brought up, in Japanese or English by Yonjin. Please avoid putting words in his mouth.
Animations being disallowed has nothing to do with the current situation. Yonjin was not levelling that point against Touhou Smash.
Google translate is not your friend.

[Colticide]

Ahh, now it makes sense, I was gonna say that I know 2d and 3d touhou doujin games that have nothing wrong with them.

Please if anyone uses google translate please say so, if you just post with out telling us that then it could be assumed as accurate information.

[aUsernameIsFineToo]

fans that wilfully created an animation product, labelled it as official

STOP RIGHT THERE! (Oh, that's just breaking so many rules by itself. Proceeding to sell it is like mutilating the body after the murder!)

Google translate is not your friend.

It never was. Translating between Western and Eastern languages is very complicated and difficult for computer translation algorithms, so most of the time I translate Japanese to Chinese with it instead of to English, because the latter often ends up a garbled, unintelligible mess. Which brings up another point: perhaps I can help translate some things by Google doing Japanese to Chinese and then translating that to English myself. That's the best I can do, in case the ones who are fluent in Japanese and English need someone to alleviate the burden of translating the incoming raw material that this situation's likely going to bring.

[Savory]

It never was. Translating between Western and Eastern languages is very complicated and difficult for computer translation algorithms, so most of the time I translate Japanese to Chinese with it instead of to English, because the latter often ends up a garbled, unintelligible mess.

Yeah, makes me wish there was a better means of translating and transcribing for people not too familiar with the language. Google Translate is indeed not a friend; nor a frienemy.

[TresserT]

I've been trying to follow this but I'm getting kind of confused. I can understand some criticism about what FSS has done (or failed to do) but everyone's making it seem like this is a huge deal. As far as I can see, if ZUN shuts down this project the only people who have anything to lose are FSS and maybe the people who contributed money (and even then, that's only if FSS runs off with all the money). It'd be a shame if this game doesn't get done but if it doesn't we haven't really lost anything.

If it's about reputation, AFAIK nothing like this has happened in the west before. Plus stuff like this has happened before in the east, so I'd like to believe ZUN would view this as an isolated incident and not hold it against everyone. And even if he does it doesn't seem like he's been very willing to deal with the west in the first place, so again, I don't see what we're losing (or why this is such a big deal). I feel like I'm missing something here...