Author Topic: Touhou Smash crowdfunding and ZUN's fancreation rules (discussion thread)  (Read 214113 times)

Ozzy

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Re: Touhou Smash crowdfunding and ZUN's fancreation rules (discussion thread)
« Reply #210 on: January 16, 2015, 04:00:59 AM »
There's probably a fair number of people, but they're still all one circle. I imagine if they needed someone to help with any one task, they found someone willing to help to join their circle, or learned themselves.
They way you say it it sounds so easy to just find people to help them for no (or little) compensation. But in my experience it just isn't that easy, if even possible. For my game, I have been hard pressed to find someone willing to contribute boss sprites so that I don't have to use official Touhou sprites. I've also seen MANY similar art and music requests for game projects on this forum which have also gone unanswered. Is it just easier to find people in the japanese community? Cause it sure isn't in the western community.

Kilgamayan

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Re: Touhou Smash crowdfunding and ZUN's fancreation rules (discussion thread)
« Reply #211 on: January 16, 2015, 04:08:48 AM »
Tangentially related: Anyone that is this surprised to learn how gotta-do-it-myself the doujin scene is clearly never read/followed the saga of RosenKreuzStilette Freudenstachel.
[22:40:12] <Drake> "guys i donwloaded esod but its not workan"
[22:40:21] <Drake> REPORTED
[22:40:25] <NaturallyOccurringChoja> PROBATED
[22:40:30] <Drake> ORGASM
[22:40:32] <NaturallyOccurringChoja> FUCK YEAH

[22:28:39] <Edible> Mafia would be a much easier game if we were playing "spot the asshole"

Alcoraiden

  • Do not go gentle into that good night
Re: Touhou Smash crowdfunding and ZUN's fancreation rules (discussion thread)
« Reply #212 on: January 16, 2015, 04:14:52 AM »
Storytime with Kilga? :P

Re: Touhou Smash crowdfunding and ZUN's fancreation rules (discussion thread)
« Reply #213 on: January 16, 2015, 04:15:07 AM »
Tangentially related: Anyone that is this surprised to learn how gotta-do-it-myself the doujin scene is clearly never read/followed the saga of RosenKreuzStilette Freudenstachel.

... I cannot even pronounce what you said.

Drake

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Re: Touhou Smash crowdfunding and ZUN's fancreation rules (discussion thread)
« Reply #214 on: January 16, 2015, 04:28:57 AM »
  • Whoever @reppu_kiri is screwed up by trying to defend Saijee while using the term 「発売する」, which can imply the game is intended for commercial sale.
  • Saijee's tweet using 「プロジェクトのために作っているお金は私たち個人の物ではありません」 doesn't seem very well-worded and will likely not convey the right idea.
  • Saying "instead of five years, we finish in one year" without elaboration sounds like you just made it up to secure funds.
  • 「お金が必要です」 is poor wording, it's like saying "money is needed" or "we need money" rather than describing what any funds are intended to help pay for.

People aren't very happy with some of these replies. I'm going to echo persceaux, the phrasing for PR needs work.
« Last Edit: January 16, 2015, 05:52:48 AM by Drake »

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Alcoraiden

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Re: Touhou Smash crowdfunding and ZUN's fancreation rules (discussion thread)
« Reply #215 on: January 16, 2015, 04:33:15 AM »
Well granted it *is* twitter. I don't know how much you can say on twitter even with Japanese symbols instead of alphabetical words.

...how does it sound made up if you say you want to use the money to speed the project? This seems obvious to me. Maybe it isn't, but it seems like only people looking for reasons to hate (who will find others anyway) are going to do this.

I have no idea who reppu_kiri is, but someone with twitter Eirin_Yagokoro also posted a hostile-sounding English comment on @korindo and it bugs me. Like...do not rush ZUN, we do not need this. Don't make demands, make discussion. Etc. The kind of thing that will *really* kill us is sounding like angry small children.
« Last Edit: January 16, 2015, 04:36:28 AM by Alcoraiden »

Re: Touhou Smash crowdfunding and ZUN's fancreation rules (discussion thread)
« Reply #216 on: January 16, 2015, 04:50:07 AM »
Is it possible to open discussion somewhere other than Twitter? As cute as Twitter is, it's not a very effective means of communication. Especially with an issue as sensitive as this. The limited amount of characters a post can have, combined with Saijee's limited japanese, seems to be what's turning this into a PR nightmare more than anything else because there's little room to elaborate and plenty of it for misunderstandings.

Either that or the japanese fanbase has its head so far up its ass that what someone intends to say is less important than the exact wording used to convey it. (Which I really doubt is the case here.....)

Drake

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Re: Touhou Smash crowdfunding and ZUN's fancreation rules (discussion thread)
« Reply #217 on: January 16, 2015, 04:56:22 AM »
...how does it sound made up if you say you want to use the money to speed the project? This seems obvious to me.
Mainly because it isn't specified how more money equates to faster development time. Yes, it seems obvious for that to be the case, which is why it would sound like you just made it up as an excuse for asking for money. It means that you've somehow estimated dev time without funds, estimated dev time with funds, and nobody knows what the funds are used for or why it suddenly speeds development up, which sounds suspicious. Especially to a culture that simply doesn't do this.

Omegahugger: there's been plenty of that nitpicking already.
« Last Edit: January 16, 2015, 04:58:22 AM by Drake »

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Kilgamayan

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Re: Touhou Smash crowdfunding and ZUN's fancreation rules (discussion thread)
« Reply #218 on: January 16, 2015, 05:17:17 AM »
I admit I don't know how much of this (particularly the details) is truly public knowledge, so just to be safe, here's the super-tldr RKS Freudenstachel story.

The first game (which was just RosenKreuzStilette) was made by two dudes, one of which, WOMI, was the artist and world-builder, and the other of which did all the technical stuff because WOMI didn't know a lick of that sort of thing. After the plans for RKSF were announced, ill fate fell upon the technical guy, leaving WOMI by himself. The game ended up being delayed several years because WOMI nutted up and taught himself, from all but scratch, how to code. The end result was a game that crashed on occasion but otherwise played almost exactly like the original and was fun as shit to boot.

This is the kind of culture that cuc/P-Man/persceaux are (very patiently, imo) trying to tell everyone about, and is the mindset those without experience in this field need to take on before they offer suggestions on how to proceed here.
« Last Edit: January 16, 2015, 05:23:15 AM by Kilgamayan »
[22:40:12] <Drake> "guys i donwloaded esod but its not workan"
[22:40:21] <Drake> REPORTED
[22:40:25] <NaturallyOccurringChoja> PROBATED
[22:40:30] <Drake> ORGASM
[22:40:32] <NaturallyOccurringChoja> FUCK YEAH

[22:28:39] <Edible> Mafia would be a much easier game if we were playing "spot the asshole"

Helepolis

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Re: Touhou Smash crowdfunding and ZUN's fancreation rules (discussion thread)
« Reply #219 on: January 16, 2015, 06:56:56 AM »
They way you say it it sounds so easy to just find people to help them for no (or little) compensation. But in my experience it just isn't that easy, if even possible. For my game, I have been hard pressed to find someone willing to contribute boss sprites so that I don't have to use official Touhou sprites. I've also seen MANY similar art and music requests for game projects on this forum which have also gone unanswered. Is it just easier to find people in the japanese community? Cause it sure isn't in the western community.
That is kind of the thing. Most of the westerners are thinking "I need investment to get things done". They are are usually always thinking in terms of money because it is just a cultural thing in most cases. The spirit of Doujin development is hard work through effort. And you have a potential point about art, music, sprites. Compared to Japan, we lack a lot of those people because we're generally not an digital art culture. I'll give you an example: On favourable request one of the Neetpia (from Age of Ethanols) people made me one of my boss sprites because their circle had a spriter.

I believe also in Western cons, artists take money to draw a sketch/request and at Reitaisai they do it for free if they want to/have time to.

Re: Touhou Smash crowdfunding and ZUN's fancreation rules (discussion thread)
« Reply #220 on: January 16, 2015, 07:07:51 AM »
Since this was the only way I could be able to make a post over 140 characters, I put the apology on the campaign page:
https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/touhou-super-smash-battles/x/3932426#home

Re: Touhou Smash crowdfunding and ZUN's fancreation rules (discussion thread)
« Reply #221 on: January 16, 2015, 08:30:26 AM »
From the "our story" part on that page:
Quote
こんにちは、From Soy Sauceです。まずプロジェクトのための資金ですが、これは私たち個人の物ではありません。もしZUNさんがこの事について問題があるとお考えならばその考えを尊重します。ですがもしかしたら誤解されている点があるかもしれないのでこの資金のことについて説明させてください。

私達はこのプロジェクトを8月から開始しました。そして世界中のたくさんの東方ファンが私たちのYOUTUBE動画を観てチャンネル登録してくださいました。そのなかには金銭的に余裕のある方たちもいらっしゃいます。

一般的に、東方プロジェクトは日本で行われるたくさんの同人イベントによって金銭的なサポートが行われます。そして日本は素晴らしいプロジェクトを作成するたくさんのコンピューターグラフィックの才能がある東方ファンに恵まれています。しかしながら、日本以外の国ではこのような才能のある人や熱心なファン、資金を提供してくれる人を探すのは容易ではありません。その結果たくさんの世界中のファンたちは資金を提供するしかゲームの開発をサポートする道がありません。

もともとの計画では、8キャラと10のステージでした。ですがファンたちはたくさんのキャラとステージと質の良いグラフィックを望んでいます。しかしながら、もしそれを実現するならば5年ぐらいかかります。

そのための解決策として、世界中の東方ファンは私達に募金を募集するキャンペーンをしてゲームをより大きくすることを提案してくれたのです。そして、もし十分なお金を援助してもらえば、このゲームを一年でより良いものにすることができます。

私たちはこのプロジェクトに一日約八時間費やしています。私達はこのサイトにその成果を毎週アップロードしています。https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kTgmfRrJQq0&list=PLaDd9276h4ZDo3RgOFGfcRbw7mUTScQ4S&index=1
私達のチャンネルでその成果とプロジェクト初日からファンになってくれている方々のコメントをご覧になってください。FSSではコメント欄でのファンたちの案や意見を頻繁に取り入れています。

計算の結果、一つのキャラクターを作成するのにAnimatorsに平均350,000円かかることが分かりました。今のところ$17445ものお金が募金されており、最大で6つのキャラクターを作ることができます。すでに作成したい25つのキャラクターのうち2つを私達で完成することができました。ウェブページで私達の資金を確認してもらうこともできます。ですが見ていただくとおり25つものキャラクターを製作するのには程遠い金額です。

そして、クラウドファンディングは普通の募金システムではありません。たくさんの人が募金すればするほど、私達にはゲームをより良くするという義務が強くなります。そして募金の額が多いほどゲームのサービスも良くなります。

例えば、もし十分なお金がなければ$5を寄付して、ゲームに入れて欲しいキャラクターを投票することができます。

もし$20を寄付すればゲームのフリーコピーをダウンロードすることができます。

もし$200寄付すれば,幻想郷の中から好きな場所を選べます。そして私たちがそのステージを作ります。

もし$2000または$3000を寄付すれば寄付者の好きなキャラクターをプレイすることは約束されます。$3000は一つのキャラクターを作成するのに十分な金額だからです。限りはありますが、特にこのプロジェクトに興味を持っていただけた日本のファンのためにキャラクターの選択権を用意しています。

日本の方たちの中で私達がお金を簡単に稼ぐために東方の名を使っていると思われている方たちがいらっしゃるのは承知しています。ですがZunさんのポリシーに従っています。そしてこのプロジェクトやこの一ヶ月半Zunさんにプロジェクトに関して質問攻めにしてしまったことがZUNさんを不快にさせていないといいです。

お金よりも、私達は東方について全く知らない人たちに東方を紹介することが出来れば幸いです。欧米の人たちの反応はとても良いです。

もしZUNさんが納得できないのであれば、私達FSSは募金をキャンセルして募金をしてくれたファン一人ひとりにお金を返金する予定です。キャラクターとレベルは最低限でとても小さいゲームになります。ですが、たくさんの世界中の東方ファンがより良いゲームを望んでいます。もしZUNさんまたはZunさんの代理人の方が fromsoysauce@gmail.com に連絡していただければ、ZUNさんの選択に従いますし、世界中の東方ファンも理解するでしょう。

もしZUNさんの気分を害してしまったのならば本当に申し訳ありません。これが私達の始めての東方プロジェクトです。もし何か問題を起こしてしまったのならば申し訳ありません。改善します。


このゲームの作成を続ける方法はたくさんありますが、ZUNさんの恩恵なしでは続けたくありません。もし必要があれば、FSS のうちの一人がアメリカから日本に行きZunさんまたは代理人の方とゲームや募金について個人的にお話しに行くことも可能です。



もし資金を集めることが問題であれば、募金なしで規模や質は落ちますがこのゲームを完成させようと思います。

よろしくお願いいたします

...is this how you want to explain it?

Flandre5carlet

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Re: Touhou Smash crowdfunding and ZUN's fancreation rules (discussion thread)
« Reply #222 on: January 16, 2015, 08:38:08 AM »
From the "our story" part on that page:
...is this how you want to explain it?

Seems to be the case if he scrapped the Indiegogo page in favor for this. Your reaction makes me wonder what it all means, as I'm unable to understand all of it.

N-Forza

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Re: Touhou Smash crowdfunding and ZUN's fancreation rules (discussion thread)
« Reply #223 on: January 16, 2015, 09:11:59 AM »
Probably a minor thing, but you should stick with ZUN in all caps for each mention of his name, if you want to show more courtesy.

Re: Touhou Smash crowdfunding and ZUN's fancreation rules (discussion thread)
« Reply #224 on: January 16, 2015, 12:31:34 PM »
I do think that only having that message on the indiegogo may hurt the overall campaign, since now there is no explanation for the game, goals, and whatnot. I get you needed to put that up as soon as possible.

I suggest leaving that there for now, but as soon as you can make a page on your website to put that there, and then link to it at the very top of your campain, above everything else, saying an important message to the japanese community(in english and japanese of course) and then have the previous front page below that.

Alcoraiden

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Re: Touhou Smash crowdfunding and ZUN's fancreation rules (discussion thread)
« Reply #225 on: January 16, 2015, 02:29:21 PM »
For folks who are annoyed at Saijee's Japanese, perhaps offer to help proofread/write some stuff? I'd help but I don't know jack about Japanese. ^^;

Re: Touhou Smash crowdfunding and ZUN's fancreation rules (discussion thread)
« Reply #226 on: January 16, 2015, 03:00:53 PM »
I have been silently watching this thread along with a few friends, occasionally discussing the situation and the impact this may be having on Eastern-Western Touhou fandom relations. I haven't really had anything to say or contribute until now, because pretty much anything I would say has already been said, but earlier this morning we were struck with a thought, which we have been mulling over for hours.

I think that like myself and anyone else whom has been reading this thread but not contributing, we have thoughts and opinions on the subject, but perhaps feel that individually they might not have a significant or meaningful contribution to the discussion.

With the way things stand right now, there is a subtle "them" and "us" - our opinions on this are not being gathered together in a way that includes [both] the Western and Eastern fan-bases. The English-speaking group is speaking with others in the English-speaking crowd, while the Japanese-speaking group is likewise doing the same in the Japanese-speaking crowd. The dialogue between the Eastern and Western groups is not significant enough to alleviate a lot of concerns.

We Westerners are concerned about making sure this doesn't sully our reputation and validity as fans of Touhou.
The Easterners are concerned about the approach of the project and other details.

In both cases, a lot of it boils down to conflict of interest mired in cultural and language difference - if we can tackle the language issue, we can open dialogue for outlining the cultural differences and resolving the conflict of interest into something both fanbases are satisfied with.

So in order to make a bit of headway there, we thought "...Why not make a bilingual poll?"

A global poll that asks people to simply check a box that most aligns with their thoughts about the crowdfunding project, the game itself, and how they would resolve this situation in a way that pleases both Eastern and Western fans - that way even those of us that would otherwise remain silent in this discussion can still contribute our voices in a meaningful way, and we can get a clearer picture of how the global Touhou community thinks this admittedly sticky situation should move forward.

I have been putting together my thoughts for the poll in a Google Doc, but I am not bilingual, and it would be helpful to get some input, such as what sort of poll site should be used and how best to present the poll to both the Eastern and Western fan-bases. If anyone wants to contribute to the document, please PM me and I will open the document to you.

Otherwise, I and the rest of us who have elected to remain silent as we observe these events will continue to cross our fingers and hope for the best - this situation has the potential to go horribly wrong, or amazingly well, and I would personally prefer to see it go amazingly well, by opening some doors between the fanbases.

Re: Touhou Smash crowdfunding and ZUN's fancreation rules (discussion thread)
« Reply #227 on: January 16, 2015, 03:03:54 PM »
Does anybody know if this is relevant to Touhou Smash Bros? I can't tell one way or the other, given that I have zero understanding of  Japanese. ZUN said it on Twitter 12 hours ago.

"持ち込み企画と言ってもアドバイザーが僕に当たった人は、何処かに採用されたり商品化されるという夢はありませんが"

Re: Touhou Smash crowdfunding and ZUN's fancreation rules (discussion thread)
« Reply #228 on: January 16, 2015, 03:22:23 PM »
Does anybody know if this is relevant to Touhou Smash Bros? I can't tell one way or the other, given that I have zero understanding of  Japanese. ZUN said it on Twitter 12 hours ago.

"持ち込み企画と言ってもアドバイザーが僕に当たった人は、何処かに採用されたり商品化されるという夢はありませんが"

google translate is not much help

Who Advisor to say that bringing planning strikes me is , there is no dream of being commercialized or are employed somewhere

Helepolis

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Re: Touhou Smash crowdfunding and ZUN's fancreation rules (discussion thread)
« Reply #229 on: January 16, 2015, 03:27:24 PM »

Honestly in my opinion perhaps you should not do that. You're putting this on a level as if every single fan project here on the west is having a conflict. The more interference is being submitted into this case the more complex it becomes. There is a reason why some of us didn't jump over to the Twitter conversation and started discussing this.

There is no "us vs them" and neither a subtle form of it. So please throw that thought away immediately.

The eastern touhou fans aren't concerned. They follow ZUN's guidelines strictly and that is about it. I am sure the western fans aren't concerned either because there hasn't been any similar case here on MotK. What I am concerned about is our forum reputation. We're RikaNitori and last thing I want is us being painted as, what had been already dropped by the eastern fans, arrogant bunch of people who stubbornly will continue their work.

Your google doc opinion poll isn't going to solve anything because that isn't how things are dealt with. Sincerely requesting: Please refrain from publishing anything in the name of MotK or Western fans regarding this matter and stop using the word "we/us".
« Last Edit: January 16, 2015, 03:29:07 PM by Helepolis »

Alcoraiden

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Re: Touhou Smash crowdfunding and ZUN's fancreation rules (discussion thread)
« Reply #230 on: January 16, 2015, 03:30:35 PM »
I do think they should "stubbornly continue their work" with or without funding allowed, because what they're doing is a labor of passion here. And they intend to. Did you mean something else by that line?

(Otherwise I agree, let's not make a kerfuffle out of this, the last thing we need to do is act like it's a big us vs. them thing.)

Re: Touhou Smash crowdfunding and ZUN's fancreation rules (discussion thread)
« Reply #231 on: January 16, 2015, 03:33:18 PM »
An us vs them would never turn out well, and just create a huge rift between us. The touhou fandom is honestly the best fandom in the world, and it should not be split between east and west.

We should do our best to act nice and respectful to our japanese counterparts.

Alcoraiden

  • Do not go gentle into that good night
Re: Touhou Smash crowdfunding and ZUN's fancreation rules (discussion thread)
« Reply #232 on: January 16, 2015, 03:37:07 PM »
This is the best translation of ZUN's tweet that I've gotten. From a friend:
""So he planned to start negotiationg with his advisor, but he emplyed the man who had called him in the first place. Regardless, he had no intention of merchandising."

Best I can do.

Re: Touhou Smash crowdfunding and ZUN's fancreation rules (discussion thread)
« Reply #233 on: January 16, 2015, 03:48:29 PM »
This is the best translation of ZUN's tweet that I've gotten. From a friend:
""So he planned to start negotiationg with his advisor, but he emplyed the man who had called him in the first place. Regardless, he had no intention of merchandising."

Best I can do.

Ah okay. Maybe it's related to his other tweet yesterday then. About an event I think.

Edit* Yeah definetly. It rapidly followed the other tweet, and the other tweet also mentions something about an adviser.
« Last Edit: January 16, 2015, 04:09:02 PM by Disgaeafan1 »

N-Forza

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Re: Touhou Smash crowdfunding and ZUN's fancreation rules (discussion thread)
« Reply #234 on: January 16, 2015, 04:11:10 PM »
I'm too tired to properly translate that tweet, but it's about the upcoming Nico event where he will offer feedback to other doujin games. It's totally unrelated.

Re: Touhou Smash crowdfunding and ZUN's fancreation rules (discussion thread)
« Reply #235 on: January 16, 2015, 04:21:16 PM »
I'm too tired to properly translate that tweet, but it's about the upcoming Nico event where he will offer feedback to other doujin games. It's totally unrelated.

Okay, that's what I figured. Thanks!

Re: Touhou Smash crowdfunding and ZUN's fancreation rules (discussion thread)
« Reply #236 on: January 16, 2015, 04:24:45 PM »
- - -

I feel like I may have mis-communicated some of my intent, but I see and understand where you are coming from - I hadn?t considered the possibility that a poll of this sort might only exacerbate the issue instead of helping anything. We (that is, those of us who had been discussing this topic outside of the thread) were only thinking to try and provide an avenue for the individuals whom have elected to not contribute to this discussion or it?s Twitter equivalent(s) to present their voices in a mostly anonymous way. Primarily, the idea was that if the Japanese fans and doujin producers take issue with how proceedings have gone with Touhou Smash, would it be inappropriate to ask them from the perspective of a hypothetical FSS or bilingual representative; ?Okay, your voice has been heard, and we wish to hear how you would best feel comfortable with Touhou Smash moving forward - could you please tell us your thoughts??

Perhaps I am not using fair terminology, but I do feel that there actually is some amount of concern in both Western and Eastern fanbases - otherwise this discussion would not be happening. At the very least, I think ?concern? is appropriate to use when describing how the Eastern fans are feeling about the potential that Touhou Smash may have been approaching problematic territory with ZUN?s guidelines. I may also simply be reading too much into this situation, but it is how I feel.

There is one thing I wish to clarify though, because I can see how badly it can be taken otherwise?

I specifically chose to say ?us and them? as opposed to ?us versus them?, because ?and? implies a togetherness while emphasizing that there are two separate parties relevant to this situation, which is true, while ?versus? implies some form of outright opposition, which is what I wished to avoid.

Given that I feel as if I can relate to your thoughts on the matter, I will make sure to communicate them to those with whom I had been discussing outside of MotK - we?ll scrap and refrain from posting any sort of poll or published document in similar interests. This makes me very glad I had elected to bring up the idea before we went through with it, so I very much appreciate your input.

Final note: For most of my statements, I use ?we/us? to merely represent myself and the three people with whom I was talking in regards to this topic and debating the usefulness of a poll, not to marginalize or otherwise represent MotK or Western fans as a whole, so I apologize for not communicating that a little more clearly.
« Last Edit: January 16, 2015, 04:43:18 PM by Kitaen V.R.F. Silva »

Colticide

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Re: Touhou Smash crowdfunding and ZUN's fancreation rules (discussion thread)
« Reply #237 on: January 16, 2015, 05:18:02 PM »
.  What I am concerned about is our forum reputation. We're RikaNitori and last thing I want is us being painted as, what had been already dropped by the eastern fans, arrogant bunch of people who stubbornly will continue their work.

Is that them saying that about us as a whole or the group themselves?

And by continue their work I'm assuming they meant that about the money issue being involved right?
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Helepolis

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Re: Touhou Smash crowdfunding and ZUN's fancreation rules (discussion thread)
« Reply #238 on: January 17, 2015, 10:13:46 AM »
Mod announcement: After discussing with Saijee and moderation team, decided to split the thread from the moment the crowdfunding appeared. This is in order to keep the overview.

Please keep things civil and mature. This is a rare incident for RikaNitori and I was also quite unsure how to approach this. Decided to actually sleep first then see in the morning what other mods had suggested. Eventually decided that if ZUN would approve or disapprove the crowdfunding, the thread would be too cluttered with the unprecedented incident. Assuming Saijee wishes to post regular development updates, the thread had to be "cleaned up"

Just to note: The splitting isn't censoring or removing the "negative talk" because the mod team or Saijee might dislike. This was my own initiative suggestion so if there are inquiries or questions about the thread splitting, please PM me about it. Both threads still exist at RikaNitori section for convenience as they wouldn't fit somewhere else.



Below here the discussion can be carried on.

--Helepolis

N-Forza

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Re: Touhou Smash crowdfunding and ZUN's fancreation rules (discussion thread)
« Reply #239 on: January 17, 2015, 10:14:23 AM »
Saijee: I saw your exchange with a Japanese guy on Twitter. I think there was a bit of a language barrier issue, so I'll give a clearer interpretation of what he was trying to say.

This all seems to center around your insistence of moving ahead with the crowdfunding campaign despite knowing it goes against the guidelines, because you believe they are outdated.

That may very well be true, but it seems that ZUN sees no reason to change them as of yet, or even hint at it. He could have very well been thinking about that very carefully after his Atlanta visit, but could not have found the time to do it. He's a very busy man with a family, which is probably why he didn't answer your initial e-mail in a timely manner. He probably receives hundreds of such e-mails every week, many of them from projects of a far bigger scope than yours, so it's possible he's only more receptive to face-to-face meetings. Regardless, that gave you no reason to go ahead with the indiegogo thing.

Putting your game on indiegogo was an unwise move for two reasons: 1. Crowdfunding goes against the very spirit of doujin works. I've already covered that so I'll skip it. But the other, possibly equally important reason 2 is that you put it on a site that is not your own and has no affiliation with Touhou at all. ZUN doesn't want Touhou fanworks in public places because you'll catch the attention of people who have no idea what Touhou or doujin is, and you'll possibly create misunderstandings such as your game is an official Touhou game, you're stealing someone else's property, etc. That is the reason why ZUN only allows Touhou games to be sold at Comiket/Reitaisai-type events or stores that already deal in Touhou games, because its patrons will already have an understanding that your game is a derivative work. Even if you say "based on the Touhou games", any random Joe could even assume that you were talking about some other game series you have made. A token "we have contacted ZUN" isn't going to cut it. You have to include the proper copyright information regardless, even if right now is just that apology.

It is true that following ZUN's guidelines is far more difficult outside of Japan. No one is denying that. But there have been successful Touhou fan events in Taiwan, China, and even the USA. Had you kept to showing your game and possibly sold demos at Touhoucon and maybe even anime conventions (assuming you could get permission), there would not have been any problems whatsoever. It was only when you thrust your game for all to see on the internet that you crossed the line.

No one wants to see you stop working on your game. In fact, if you can get a demo ready by Reitaisai, I will gladly help sell physical copies at my booth (if I get in) and even handle overseas distribution. The problem is that you seem think you have the right to use someone else's characters while willfully ignoring the relatively loose guidelines in place because they're "not fair". You have to work within the boundaries that have been laid out. If anything, doing so would've been even MORE impressive and reflected well on the western community, because it would've been proof that there are those who understand doujin culture despite not living in Japan. My advice is to end the crowdfunding drive immediately, apologize, and go back to what you've been doing. There's still time to save face and the hard work you've invested thus far.

I'll clarify any points I might not have gone into enough detail, but this is pretty much my final word.

And don't retort with anything idiotic like "you're not ZUN". I'm not meaning to toot my own horn, but I've been involved in the doujin scene, particularly the Touhou one, for nearly 6 years now, so I would like to think I know what I'm talking about. I'm not ZUN, but judging from past experiences and what other Japanese people are saying on Twitter, this is what the big deal is. Continue to ignore it, and worse case scenario (besides a lawsuit) is ZUN completely writes off everything east of the Pacific.