Medaka Box Mafia - Night 4

[WHMZakeri]

It was worth it for looking at reactions imo.

I don't see how any reaction other than "Stop twisting my words, RAEG" could even be possible as a result of that jab. Even if you suspect Sky, it crosses the line from Reaction gathering to simply trying to throw him off his balance.

Except Shadoweh and Sky are the only ones in the game who want me dead at all? I don't think me being lynched is a worry. I don't see how taking potshots at someone who you want to lynch is scummy either?

This bit was mostly referring to the fact that I don't like you pulling up "But why would CF7 rolefish me?" (Post 371), especially since I don't think it was CF7's intention to rolefish to begin with.

It's honestly more gut than hard evidence but the point is I don't think those one-liners are coming from a purely town mindset.

I like your BT case a lot though, actually.

Why thank you, I was hoping more people would comment on it.
Cut: By even less people commenting on it. I do agree with the notion that Oarfish hasn't done anything incredibly town but I also don't like that people are just hopping onto the next delicious wagon in the buffet line.

[ActionDan]

Oarfish can get lynched without my help.

##Vote Conq

just because many people are town.

##unvote

##Zakeri

eh.  one of the two.

[Serela]

I skimmed all of D2 and I haven't actually seen you say anything about either of those people Dan

I mean I guess you could be going off something you said in d1 but like

you can't expect anything to happen if you're just like "well I guess I'd lynch conq or zak" when cases don't really exist on the two, from -anyone-, as far as I'm aware

[ActionDan]

Eh.  Oarfish is getting lynched anyway, and I can't say I'm opposed.  I'm busy tonight trying to have the time of my life maybe so

[Sky_Paladin]

And I'm back.  I'm pleasantly surprised to find we're still going here.  Okay.  We're all tired from the back and forth so I'll just respond/snipe key points.

Chapter 1:
NRR rebuttal:
"(which is pure speculation)" - yes, it's speculation.  I don't know for sure anybody's alignment.  Do you know some other player's alignment? 

"But Kingault was apathetic and his vote was pathetically jumpy. Easy case, easy vote." - I voted for King early in the day.  My reasoning was,

For now, I think Kingault's vote on CF7 is basically because "it's not like I can think of any better options at this point."  There's plenty of options but you just happened to consolidate on to the guy with the most votes?  We're not even halfway through day one.  It looks like a scum vote park to me.

King never improved or defended his vote.  That's a scum vote park! 

"So why didn't you switch off when he went apathy-mode and continued to push it?"
It's the same reason for you having tunnel vision on me.  When you have scum in your sights and the target starts to look increasingly accurate (CF7 and King both demonstrated the same kind of apathy and reluctance to contest) you become even less inclined to shift - even when a more obvious target appears. 

"what happened to that Sacchi read anyway"
I think Hikari's alignment is somewhat conditional on a flip from Oarfish.  I think they do have some kind of buddy or relationship going, but it doesn't have to be scum.  They could be masons, lovers, neighbours, or yes, even scum.  I think King/Oarfish's slot is scummy but I don't know for sure he is scum.  Secondly, it's a one way relationship.  Hikari was defending King, but King/Oarfish never interacted back towards King/Oarfish.  A good association has two way interactions and I really only saw one way, and in particular, the vote change when I hopped off King.  As the game has progressed I'm becoming less confident of scum!Hikari because he has largely been eclipsed by scum!Oarfish.  If Oarfish flips scum THEN I would reconsider Hikari.  However, the situation right now is already difficult and complex because of the whole VT claim drama so I don't think spending time pursuing a Hikari case would be efficient. 

Chapter 2;
Oarfish's image post.
It's not really clear so I'm asking - are you making a case against SB here?
Also I note you have me down as chainsawdefending somebody (I presume CF7).  Chainsaw defending is when you attack the players argument.  King didn't make an argument at all (ever) so I don't think you can call it chainsaw defending.

I don't know what this is about, but even if I had a secret vighit that I don't know about, it won't work today because All active abilities have been disabled for the current day phase and following night phase. 

I guess I can try ##justice playerx just to see what happens but it'll be a surprise for me too. 

Chapter 3;
Mod trolls us some more. 

Come on, guy.  How is this the fault of the players?  We trusted you </3 ;__;

***

Oh, and that's actually it. 

BT and ActionDan have been criminally afk/non participatory for the last day.  Going to go have a look at them now. 

[BT]

I'll concede to being lazy as molasses. I actually have a bit of a break tomorrow so if I don't get to doing something at these early hours I'll have to compensate for it tomorrow.

[NekoNekoRex]

Nice defense there, ignoring half the arguments now.

"(which is pure speculation)" - yes, it's speculation.  I don't know for sure anybody's alignment.  Do you know some other player's alignment? 

The point is that it has literally nothing to do with a CF7 read, which is the main pivot of why I think you're scum.

King never improved or defended his vote.  That's a scum vote park! 

He also kinda stopped fucking playing. CF7 was still trying to play the game, he was also making the worst decisions possible. Kingault was really just not playing the game or showing scum intent.
Your vote never saw past scum intent, it was just voting the weakest player.

It's the same reason for you having tunnel vision on me.  When you have scum in your sights and the target starts to look increasingly accurate (CF7 and King both demonstrated the same kind of apathy and reluctance to contest) you become even less inclined to shift - even when a more obvious target appears.

IT'S BECAUSE YOU POST NOTHING BUT SCUM INTENT GRAAAAAGH

I think Hikari's alignment

Holy fucking shit are you even reading his posts at this point because I think you are making this up as you go along.

[NekoNekoRex]

I think Hikari's alignment is somewhat conditional on a flip from Oarfish.  I think they do have some kind of buddy or relationship going, but it doesn't have to be scum.  They could be masons, lovers, neighbours, or yes, even scum.  I think King/Oarfish's slot is scummy but I don't know for sure he is scum.  Secondly, it's a one way relationship.  Hikari was defending King, but King/Oarfish never interacted back towards King/Oarfish.  A good association has two way interactions and I really only saw one way, and in particular, the vote change when I hopped off King.  As the game has progressed I'm becoming less confident of scum!Hikari because he has largely been eclipsed by scum!Oarfish.  If Oarfish flips scum THEN I would reconsider Hikari.  However, the situation right now is already difficult and complex because of the whole VT claim drama so I don't think spending time pursuing a Hikari case would be efficient. 

Seriously oh my god
There is absolutely nothing here that indicates any of this is based off what Hikari has posted so far
Like, how can you even type this without evidence?

[Sky_Paladin]

BT and ActionDan have been criminally afk/non participatory for the last day.

I actually realise it's only been about 24 hours so it's totally reasonable for people to be busy/unavailable as I myself am often busy/unavailable, so I'll redact this statement.  BT's admission notwithstanding. 

I'll be away for an hour and I'll get back to you after my ISOs, NNR. 

[O4rfish]

Yknow, I feel like complaining about many things. The fact that Bard and Shadoweh read Kingler as town early, but then claim to have suspected him all along. The fact that the first thing I did on replacing was unvote, and yet I get accused of moving SkyPal closer to lynch when I revoted him.

I believe that SkyPal is intentionally lying about his role. Dormio's posts are quite clear. I'm not exactly sure why this is causing everyone to abandon the SkyPal wagon. I suppose it's not unheard of for a town to gambit in such a way (cf. Schezo) but it just seems wrong.

I also thought my post here was clear. Yes, this is a case against SB, which he hasn't addressed. The case is: the first and fourth times he defended CF7, he quoted other people defending CF7 and then said he agreed. I find this to be suspicious, which in combination with other factors (he doesn't seem to wholeheartedly believe his votes for instance) makes him scum.

SB is scum. SkyPal is playing badly, and defended CF7 somewhat, but ... I am not sure that he is scum.
##Unvote. Vote: SB

Cut by: NNR, would you say that SkyPal and CF7 are definitely buddies?
Oh and Skypal: when I said you chainsaw defended CF7, you are correct that it was against Kingler. You claim that since he gave no reason for voting, it did not count as a chainsaw defense? I was not aware of this definition, and called it that because you called out his vote on CF7 as reason for voting him, which you did. I would like to know what terminology this falls under.

[NekoNekoRex]

Cut by: NNR, would you say that SkyPal and CF7 are definitely buddies?

Yes. Skypal displayed signs of distancing and avoiding the wagon until it became extremely clear CF7 was an unavoidable lynch. I've been arguing this basically all day.

[NekoNekoRex]

I believe that SkyPal is intentionally lying about his role.

SB is scum. SkyPal is playing badly, and defended CF7 somewhat, but ... I am not sure that he is scum.
##Unvote. Vote: SB

* Prims-like shakes O4rfish violently.

WHHHHHHY????????????

[Dormio Ergo Sum]

Votecount
O4rfish (4): Bardiche, Shadoweh, Sky Paladin, Sacchi Hikaru
Sky Paladin (1): NekoNekoRex
BT (1): Zakeri
Zakeri (1): ActionDan
SB (1): O4rfish
Conqueror (0):
Serela (0):
NekoNekoRex (0):
Shadoweh (0):
Sacchi Hikaru (0):
ActionDan (0):
Bardiche (0):

Not voting: Conqueror, BT, SB, Serela

With 12 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.

You have ~35.2 hours remaining.

[Conqueror]

Quickly skimmed the posts. Will get around to making a fuller post later.

To people still going around about the "THERE ARE NO VTS": Shadoweh, in Rewrite Mafia, got a role pm with some stuff, but there was another part of her role that was linked to someone else's role that she didn't know about, and that she received later in the game when certain conditions were fulfilled. I'm not sure if this was already brought up but yeah, it's one possibility that could account for all the SETUP MYSTERY.

Dan, don't do this to me man.

[NekoNekoRex]

Sky Paladin (1): NekoNekoRex

It's over! I'm done! Finished!
God is dead!
The world is ending!
Cats and dogs are living together!

There is no more justice to lynch scum.

[Serela]

NNR:Literally the only reason I unvoted is because Shadoweh is being as blatant as possible without outright claiming that her rolepm apparently strongly implies we shouldn't lynch SkyPaladin's claim.

[Bardiche]

The fact that Bard and Shadoweh read Kingler as town early, but then claim to have suspected him all along.

Misrep, I didn't claim that at all.

NNR, want some consoling after the game? Hie now, into the dark, my child.

[ActionDan]

NNR:Literally the only reason I unvoted is because Shadoweh is being as blatant as possible without outright claiming that her rolepm apparently strongly implies we shouldn't lynch SkyPaladin's claim.

more or less. 

I also kinda like to think I'm special too.

I'm going to go ahead and claim that my role is not even shitting you, 100% worse than a 'pure' VT PM

[ActionDan]

anyway, Conq's actually town so I won't question that one again.  Shadoweh is too, as you've come to notice oarfish

[O4rfish]

Why? Why what?

Why is Bardiche voteparking Kingler, criticizing me for pointing out how apathetic he was, and keeping his vote on me even after I addressed all his points? Also, this followed by this?
Cut by Bard: my mistake. I read this post but apparently didn't remember anything about this post.

Why is Shadoweh misrepping me? Here she says I gave a one-liner and got on the bandwagon, when actually I unvoted from the bandwagon, then posted arguments against SkyPal which nobody ever addressed. She even repeated her assertion that I immediately voted SkyPal here.
This is more weird when at the beginning of d2, she was voting SB and agreeing with NNR's case against SkyPal. I dunno, maybe she dislikes me in particular for some reason.

Why did Serela trust Shadoweh's not-actual-claim more than the celery itself?

Why is Conq trying to explain the setup in terms of information to be given later when Dormio stated that the setup is not bastard, but rather that players' claims and/or actions are causing the mystery?

ActionDan, I did not say Shadoweh was town. I said she was probably not scum based on interactions.

WHICH WHY ARE YOU ASKING ME NNR?

[O4rfish]

Bard: the "my mistake" was for recklessly representing your view improperly. I still think your votepark on me should be reexamined.

[BT]

I won't be getting to this after all but I'm honestly surprised we're going for the Kingault slot. I still think the interactions between the two were clear enough. I'll see if I still want to step all over the wagon tomorrow after actually reading most of the cases I assume exist.

[Serela]

Yeah when I skimmed d2 looking for Dan's stuff I saw those points again, you should probably restate them since after remembering I did change my mind.

[Serela]

(I mean restate for the sake of everyone else who's actually voting o4rfish)

I guess I'm actually going to have to reread multiple people, since now I don't know who I want to lynch at all.

[Bardiche]

Why? Why what?

Why is Bardiche voteparking Kingler, criticizing me for pointing out how apathetic he was, and keeping his vote on me even after I addressed all his points? Also, this followed by this?
Cut by Bard: my mistake. I read this post but apparently didn't remember anything about this post.

I'm not criticising you for his play, I'm saying the player slot is scummy. That you come in with scummy attitude yourself just cements the idea that you're scum. In a perfect world, the moment someone thinks you're scum you can just "address the points" and the case magically vanishes. Unfortunately I don't feel you've given much of anything that is even worth commenting on, and I still think you're scum.

Bard: the "my mistake" was for recklessly representing your view improperly. I still think your votepark on me should be reexamined.

Perhaps you'd care to define "votepark", because I don't think it means what you think it does.

[NekoNekoRex]

WHICH WHY ARE YOU ASKING ME NNR?

why are you contradicting yourself by revoting? It doesn't make sense to me you can believe he's a liar and then not think he's scum.

[Sky_Paladin]

ISO of BT. 

RVS for ActionDan.
Unprovoked ascetic claim. 
//Questioned by Dan. 
//Serela counter-questions Dan. 
//Serela again comments on BT's claim, saying 'dont vig'. 
//Conqueror counter-questions Dan. 
//Rawr soft-counter claims BT.  Relevant because Rawr was nightkill. 
Vote for CF7.  Ignored Dan's question. 
Supports his vote.
Dan challenges BT's claim, "I said BTs claim was strange because save for later reasons."  Worth exploring. 
Further supports vote on CF7.  //Ignores Dan. 
//Rawr implies something wrong about BT, //dies. 
BT challenges Rawr to clarify. 
//Serela getting involved with BT again. 
Rawr votes BT because "Feels like scum adding fuel to the fire by nit picking at cf7 post".  It's relevant because scum know when they are bussing so they will over pursue. 
BT isn't going to be around for 16 hours. 
Serela allegedly uses 'silence' on BT, but BT is afk. 
BT isn't really afk but confirms he is 'day ascetic' also. 
BT pretty active for an afk guy; "NNR would probably be off the hook if CF7 flips scum despite his thing with worrying about the wagon size."  I don't like it. 
//Serela's query here makes me disbelieve scumteam BT/Serela exists. 
//Start of where Serela is implied to be fake clearing BT but given the stage before it, I could buy a paranoid town!Serela using her ability to check BT.  Especially as Serela then got roasted for it, I'm happy to rule out BT/Serela team. 
Status report post that summarises pretty accurately what is going on.  I think this is a pretty towny post. 
Start of discussion with Conq about optimal moves.  I will later ping BT for WIFOM on this.
BT explains:  We can test Serela's claim.  NB just having an ability does not indicate scum/town however. 
BT (to Sky) implied don't start a new wagon with 2 hours left.  /agree. 
(Phase end). 
Credible vote for me, did not sheep like Dan/Serela/et al. 
Start of a small series of analysis posts/demand for flavor text.  Super town gold star level. 
//counterclaimed by mod <-- any semblance of normality goes out the window from here. 
BT actually vanishes from this point on until very recently. 

Overall the main suspicion I had of BT surrounded his interaction with Rawr, who died, and the interaction with Serela, but it ended up with them both looking towny in my opinion. 

Also, BT's overall analysis style even when he is drilling me a new one is very clean and to the point.  There was some parts where I didn't understand and called it WIFOM however at no point did he misrep or anything like that. 

So my ISO of BT comes up clean.  I'll just review Zak's case before I wash my hands of it.  *reads*

I think Zak maybe meant to vote SB because he spends more time talking about SB than BT.  I can understand Zak's argument.  It's just not strong enough to earn a vote from me. 

[Shadoweh]

man that was some good wine. okay im awake again what's going on

[Sky_Paladin]

ISO of ActionDan. 

RVS on Zak. 
Questions BT's claim. 
Questions Zak's behavior.  "I said BTs claim was strange because save for later reasons."
Supports BT's vote on CF7 in defiance of Rawr. 
Calls Zak/CF7 scumpair, but then "Hmmm you know zaks three suspects would be my next 3 to suspect."
Vote for CF7 because train. 
(Phase end). 
Sheeps NNR to vote Sky for no reason given. 
Credible defence of Kingault as not!bus. 
"Give me a present."  What does that mean?
//Several noncommittal one liners later;
Challenges Shadoweh to explain about magikarp. 
Implies he is functionally VT with upgrades to arrive by mail.  It's relevant because according to mod, ActionDan is technically vanilla town too at this stage (right?) despite saying there are none.  I'll go out on a limb and say Dan's role doesn't say VT either. 
Again questions BT's role. 
Back on Zak.  Consistent with Dan wanting Zak's head since RVS. 
//It's a date~  I thought I missed a post but then realised it's in LettyJournal.  Good luck and have fun

Overall, Dan's had a better than usual showing and was strong on day 1, less so day 2.  He had more activity than I remembered so maybe I just auto-assumed he was afk.  It's still kind of minimal effort but he doesn't contradict himself or misrep. 

The main thing seems to be that he has a reason to distrust BT's claim so I think that's worth exploring. 

[Sky_Paladin]

OK, let's dance again, NNR. 

Nice defense there, ignoring half the arguments now.

You are welcome to raise points that you feel I have failed to address.  I see you have already done so. 

About 'speculation';
I voted for Kingault because I saw him making a bad vote on an easy wagon.  CF7's alignment never factored into it because the idea is that scum make bad votes.  It could have been scum bussing a scumbuddy, scum making a vote park on a towny, or town just making a lazy vote.  CF7's flip actually doesn't remove any of those options, but 2/3 of those options are that King is scum.  And that is why we question bad votes, so that a towny has a chance to defend themselves, and a scum will ideally be caught.  You don't get to say people can't countervote bad votes because that completely ignores the world where scum can bus their buddies.  You even try to argue for some scenario where King and I are scumbuddies and I'm bussing him, yet you ignore that I'm saying that King could have been bussing CF7. 

Your case is "All swans are white, swans are birds, therefore all birds are white."  You want to make the argument that "All birds are black, swans are birds, therefore all swans are black."  You are back to front.  This point has been proven false. 

He also kinda stopped fucking playing. CF7 was still trying to play the game, he was also making the worst decisions possible.

You don't know that CF7 would still be playing this phase if we had lynched King instead.  Both of them simply wilted and offered no credible defence at all.  There are more things in common with King and CF7 on day 1 than there are not.  I also had no way of knowing that King was going to stop playing.  I voted him early day 1.  He fell apart.  I got countervoted.  I switched my vote.  Hikari unvoted.  I revoted a player who wasn't doing anything. 

We had no way of knowing that King was about to quit.  I thought he was lurking.  Lurking players who make bad votes are scummy.  Do you disagree?

There is absolutely nothing here that indicates any of this is based off what Hikari has posted so far

Hikari attacked me for my vote on King, and voted almost immediately.  I then shifted my vote off and Hikari shifted his vote off.  Actions speak louder than words.  I saw a chainsaw defend and a conditional countervote.  It looked very scummy and reinforced my view on King. 

Anyway, do you have any other scumpicks, or is tunneling me all you've got?  :/