PSA! A bit of refresher on forum etiquette & rule clarification & 2 new HME mods

[Caterpie]

I guess my post implied that I've seen it tossed around often ? really, it's only been twice, during the... half a year I've been on these forums. I probably couldn't even dig up the threads if I wanted to. I don't think it's a big problem, especially knowing now that it's taken seriously here (or at least, far more seriously than other communities I've been in).

[Karisa]

The word "rape" being tossed around is the reason why I don't come on these forums very often.

Is it really used that much? Can't say I see it. Like at all.

It's been all over HME in my experience-- one of several things that made me uncomfortable that I had to adjust to (or thought I had to adjust to, I guess).

I've seen plenty of examples of things like "I got raped by this boss" (with the intended meaning of something like "I got destroyed by this boss"). Then there's a certain name used for Gengetsu's final timeout phase...

[trancehime]

Not only is it shorter than saying "cute little girl", it also sounds less blatantly creepy. It's no wonder it gets used.

it also proves people don't really read that much given the origins of the term 'lolita complex' which is where 'loli' and 'lolicon' were derived from!! as good of a book as Lolita was, the mere fact that the term originated from that book does present some rather creepy connotations. I will concede that usually there is a first-time mistake or oopsie, but its constant use seems to reinforce the fact it is okay to use a term that basically means "sexualized little girl," when it is definitely not...

[helvetica]

Well especially given the context this fandom resides in (eastern visual arts culture), "loli" definitely is used and meant for its sexual connotation.

[Teewee]

So, does this mean that even the popular people around here don't get free passes for being jerks to other members? Also, just to see if I understand, the rules being pointed out in this announcement are:

- Don't express or talk about perverted stuff unless it's just adding to a civil discussion of such stuff. Aka <insertpornyfetishexpressionhere> is a no-no, while something like "Because of X, Y, Z, etc, sexualization of A is seen throughout the world as something socially unacceptable. Look at the history of B; these views have been around for a heck of a long time." is fine.

- Don't be rude to a mod, moreso than being rude to anyone else; it's an even worse idea to show them open hostility when they're trying to be civil with you about whatever happened.

- Don't be hostile towards to any other members, even if your rude statements were just meant to be humorous.

That right?

[Helepolis]

Don't be rude to a mod is a bit ambiguous. I don't mind at all if people get angry at me, snap at me or possibly insult me under the effect of their anger or disagreement. You won't get arrested for that. But some people start a personal vendetta against a moderator or modteam, just because they think they are personally singled out for what ever reason. They refuse to talk/discuss the matter and act purely out of ungrounded hate and hostility. That would make any user, not just a mod, act upon.

I keep repeating this and need to repeat it again: 
Moderators are regular members. If people would treat us like regular members, then we would feel happy more pleasant about it. I personally dislike it when people grant me "special" attention or approach me with caution, just because I am carrying a "staff member" title. For what reason? Why should you approach me with "care" when you and I are sharing the same interest: Touhou. None, exactly. I only "act as a mod" when I am required to: i.e, conflicts, reports, questions specifically regarding forum content are made. Otherwise I am just 'Helepolis'.

[Omba]

it also proves people don't really read that much given the origins of the term 'lolita complex' which is where 'loli' and 'lolicon' were derived from!! as good of a book as Lolita was, the mere fact that the term originated from that book does present some rather creepy connotations. I will concede that usually there is a first-time mistake or oopsie, but its constant use seems to reinforce the fact it is okay to use a term that basically means "sexualized little girl," when it is definitely not...

... in your opinion.
Leaving that aside, the origin of a word doesn't necessarily have anything to do with the way it's used. Take "to fuck". One of the possible etymologies traces it to words that meant "to strike", as in punching someone.

But yeah, if you take issue with the fact that there's people who like looking at cute little things (with no inherent sexual aspect to them) and don't mind there being other people who look at the same or similar things for... different reasons, I can see how you'd have a problem with the word, since it blurs the line between the two.
It's kinda like with those cat images, if there were a lot of people sexually attracted to them. :V

[Tengukami]

Cat images and loli are not at all comparable, and the meanings of the word are not matters of opinion. It has strong sexual connotations, and non-sexual use is more the exception than the norm. This ain't exactly a controversial point of view.

[Omba]

Cat images and loli are not at all comparable, and the meanings of the word are not matters of opinion. It has strong sexual connotations, and non-sexual use is more the exception than the norm. This ain't exactly a controversial point of view.

Well, I dunno how it's generally used here since I rarely frequent the parts of the forums where it would come up with any frequency.
I can only say I've seen it used without any sexual connotations on other sites pretty damn often over the years.

[Tengukami]

That's real fortunate for you. My experience has been quite different, and might explain why you think "loli" actually sounds less creepy than "cute little girl". But neither of our anecdata change the etymology nor current connotations of the word. It's not a word I think anyone's going to suffer too greatly from missing out on, to be honest.

[Zerviscos]

That's real fortunate for you. My experience has been quite different, and might explain why you think "loli" actually sounds less creepy than "cute little girl".

Weird, when Loli is short for Lolita speaking in Japanese disambiguation for Lolicon which directs to Pedophilia.

...I find the "cute little girl" more acceptable.

[Tengukami]

Argh please don't quote me out of context like that! I find 'loli' hugely creepy.

[Zerviscos]

Argh please don't quote me out of context like that! I find 'loli' hugely creepy.

Fix'd.

[Kilgamayan]

I will concede that usually there is a first-time mistake or oopsie, but its constant use seems to reinforce the fact it is okay to use a term that basically means "sexualized little girl," when it is definitely not...

This is where education on the subject, such as this thread, is helpful. As much as I never use the word (for entirely different reasons than what have been discussed here) and for all I am aware of the existence of Nabokov's work, I never internally parsed the word as inherently sexual, instead thinking it context-dependent. If, for example, someone referred to something like Nichijou as a show about lolis, I wouldn't bat an eye. I was similarly not aware Nabokov's book was, in fact, the origin of the term.

Constant use of such a term does not necessarily mean a mindset that the origins of the term are aan okay thing, and that's a rather unpleasant andd unfair assumption. 'Tis better to assume ignorance and respond by educating than to assume malevolence and respond by shaming.

[Tengukami]

Totally agree with Kilga. And if I wasn't phone-posting I'd explain why Nabakov's book is often misunderstood (hint: the protag is the most unreliable of unreliable narrators) and has led to the unfortunate meaning "lolita" has today.

[Zerviscos]

I was similarly not aware Nabokov's book was, in fact, the origin of the term.

This is why most people think the term was "Japan'esque". Being used so much in that sense, it received that kind of treatment.

[Tengukami]

Just a head's up, if you're wondering what this is, it's this.

Question about this: will this go into effect with the current roster, or with the next probation/ban?

[helvetica]

Next set, I'm not making it retroactive. The only thing I may import is the current permaban list.

[Delfigamer]

The deficit of common sense was half the reason I asked for clarity on what the actual stance was. I don't frequent the Art forums; I don't know much of what goes on there, but I feel there is the place most likly for misunderstandings; especially commenting on other people's artwork. [I could be completely and utterly incorrect about this]

Actually I cannot remember any mentioning of lolicon at 3A.
The only NSFW artist here is Maullar, and his girls are, like Stuffman said, in their late teens.
So, even if there are any misunderstandings regarding NSFW content here, I have seen none.

[Teewee]

Don't be rude to a mod is a bit ambiguous. I don't mind at all if people get angry at me, snap at me or possibly insult me under the effect of their anger or disagreement. You won't get arrested for that. But some people start a personal vendetta against a moderator or modteam, just because they think they are personally singled out for what ever reason. They refuse to talk/discuss the matter and act purely out of ungrounded hate and hostility. That would make any user, not just a mod, act upon.

All right, but what would be the exceptions of not arresting anyone who snaps at or insults someone while not letting it be part of a vendetta? I don't pick this kind of stuff up through intuition, so excuse me if I sound dumb by asking this.

[helvetica]

We tend to be understanding that tempers may be running a bit high, but directly attacking a mod is no different than attacking any other community member, and is never tolerated in any instance.

[Think Komachi with a Rifle]

This is where education on the subject, such as this thread, is helpful. As much as I never use the word (for entirely different reasons than what have been discussed here) and for all I am aware of the existence of Nabokov's work, I never internally parsed the word as inherently sexual, instead thinking it context-dependent. If, for example, someone referred to something like Nichijou as a show about lolis, I wouldn't bat an eye. I was similarly not aware Nabokov's book was, in fact, the origin of the term.

Constant use of such a term does not necessarily mean a mindset that the origins of the term are aan okay thing, and that's a rather unpleasant andd unfair assumption. 'Tis better to assume ignorance and respond by educating than to assume malevolence and respond by shaming.

Lolita fashion being the classic example of the connotation being missed, often with it being misconstrued by westerners as a result. Allegedly due to a designer hearing the name and thinking it sounded cute (probably due to Kubrick's film, rather than the novel).

With reference  to our fandom; loli in the sense of girl wearing lolita fashion (as used by that community to try and escape the Nabokov connotations) may have got conflated with the contraction of lolicon.

Yes I find it's use as a synonym for girl across large tracts of the internet esp. video gaming fora slightly unsettling.

[Teewee]

We tend to be understanding that tempers may be running a bit high, but directly attacking a mod is no different than attacking any other community member, and is never tolerated in any instance.

Oh I see. Thanks for clearing that up.

[chema1994]

Honestly, I'd be perfectly satisfied to see a much lower tolerance policy on the word 'loli'. Seriously, there is zero reason to use the word outside of, like, the phrase 'goth loli', as that's referring to the gothic lolita style and is vastly different from what connotations that the word 'loli' has.

I agree with that, especially since the sometimes deteriorated image of the Touhou Project (actually anything from Japan).