The iDOLM@STER Mafia To Be Continued (Game Over)

[ActionDan]

^ pro-bono scum-self-meta right there

[Kilgamayan]

Was this worthy of a Hitler Rant?

Not quite yet, but MotK Town's obsession with playing the setup and willingness to let scummies go (or ITPs, in this case) in the interest of role shenanigans is starting to get there. (Not to take anything away from you successfully bamboozling everyone on D2, of course.)

[BT]

I guess I should be glad no one responded to my passive-aggressiveness so I can reply normally when I'm at home. I'm not going to talk about the end result anymore. Words on the highlight move of the game, its participants and their relationship with my asshole can be found in the graveyard. Granted I only vaguely hold this sentiment now considering stuff, including the posts before this one. Anyway:

(1)

Also I probably should have checked with PX to make Conq wasn't scum before modposting, since I do hold that actively pissing off the player base is a legit scum tactic.

You can piss people off without crossing lines. Conq has apologized by now but I don't know if it occured to him just how ugly that saga was.  It was a few steps too far and the mod intervention was well in place.

(2)

Confirming after seeing the rest of the role PMs that there's literally nothing fun or redeemable about this set-up. Might actually be the worst designed mafia game I've played in.

Someone should give PX a fucking medal for having to take this sort of shit. For starters, it's rarely exclusively the mod's fault that a game failed and that definitely wasn't the case in this game. I also think the bulk of how a player reviews a setup is based on how the game itself went down, which is directly linked to the players, not the mod (and you know where I'm going with this). No one can examine a setup this complex in a flash no matter how experienced they think they are. This isn't only to huhwhat but to the lot of you who turned this into a playground where everyone takes turns to diss the guy who bothered making and hosting a game for them.

There are a few other things that made me kick kittens here but I'm stopping while I can. Hopefully this game will take a shorter time to digest than Angel Beats because that tragedy has long since turned into a scar. Scars are gross and don't come off.

[Shadoweh]

Not quite yet, but MotK Town's obsession with playing the setup and willingness to let scummies go (or ITPs, in this case) in the interest of role shenanigans is starting to get there. (Not to take anything away from you successfully bamboozling everyone on D2, of course.)

Does it count as MotK Town being willing to let scummies go if the scum are majority quicklynching them >.>

Knowing that the ITP team was fullblood ITP means the setup is less eh imo, just multiball is hard with our small playerbase. Most of the 3 on 3 games I've played have 24 players to start. I don't think we've had a scum + itp lovers team game ever turn out well, see I Am Still Sore About Angel Beats Mafia (I'm sore for different reasons though)

[SB]

Oh, this wasn't Toonami 2. I can kind of see where BT is coming from, but in my experience setups with jointing antitown just tend to make people yell at each other when the thirds have an option of townsiding. I know that they didn't in this game, but yeah everyonr thought they did. I'm kind of glad that I subbed out when I did because I was able to just laugh at it over skype rather than get confused.

10/2/2 works out fine for multiball with both teams killing per night as long ss roles are balanced. Town can still come back from the brink due to crossfire etc.

[ActionDan]

Angel beats was a good game.  I enjoyed it.

[Pesco]

For starters, it's rarely exclusively the mod's fault that a game failed and that definitely wasn't the case in this game. I also think the bulk of how a player reviews a setup is based on how the game itself went down, which is directly linked to the players, not the mod (and you know where I'm going with this). No one can examine a setup this complex in a flash no matter how experienced they think they are. This isn't only to huhwhat but to the lot of you who turned this into a playground where everyone takes turns to diss the guy who bothered making and hosting a game for them.

Appreciation ain't a thing here and will be a long time before it is.

[Serela]

While the setup -maybe- isn't as bad as some people were saying it is, I still think it was wildly too swingy with an anti-town slant. Then again, it's hard to gauge the slant when town was also incredibly strong.

Stuff like a bulletproof jailer and a cop who gets "non-town wincon positive" on half the actual townies and STILL HAS TO CONTEND WITH A SCUM RETURNING AS TOWN is ridiculous, though. 9:3:2 sounds questionable to me too but given how powerful town was I'm not sure if I can argue against it (although balancing a game by using really powerful roles to fight numbers, or just in general by hefting powerful roles all around, is -not good-; iirc isn't this the same reason PX's last setup was kind of a thing too?)

The overwhelming anti-mod reaction at the end is probably kind of a dick move but that doesn't mean there wasn't issues with the setup.

Even stuff like my role seems questionable; it might seem innocent at first glance, but the amount of swing it adds when you consider that actually managing to use it means I not only stop a nightkill, but have my killer more or less marked out for me to vig? Plus, I imagine achieving my win meant I'd be flipped in-thread and become confirmed town whilst still alive. Sure, it's only one-shot, but that doesn't justify the crazy swing of the role actually coming into fruition as a bulletproof self-watching innocent townie vigilante who knows when someone tried to shoot them. (And of course, if I mess up my one shot, my role does almost nothing apart from maybe fizzling a town role that probably wouldn't have done a lot on me- those are crazy differing ends of the spectrum)

I mean, in the end, if people know what they're getting into, this kind of craziness can be fun. But even "role madness" doesn't begin to describe what you're signing yourself up for in a case like this.

[Kilgamayan]

I think games with third parties would be a lot better if people would stop believing (a) they know what the third party's win condition is, (b) they know anything about the third party's role at all, (c) the third party can be trusted, especially when talking about themselves, and (d) that they have a modicum of control over anything the third party does. K4U put it best a long time ago: third parties are not your friends.

But people don't seem to want to listen to that sort of advice.

I would need time to sit down and look at all the PMs to cast any semblance of judgment on the setup, but I remember spending the majority of my time reading the game irritated with the players instead of the setup. The only thing that immediately comes to mind as not something I would have done was the role where turning into a tree stump was directly tied to a win condition, because it made the tree stump not have to give a shit anymore, which hurt town a good deal. Vhaltsuki might as well have been a third third party with how actively unhelpful the stump was being. The player slot certainly had no reason to work toward town's win condition and it showed in the play.

Side note: I had long since forgotten which game Angel Beats was until I reread it on a whim a couple of weeks ago. <_<

[Serela]

Oh yeah. And scum had a bulletproof plus a bulletproof doctor. And the third parties became bulletproof.

As if town's vigs were meant for anything other then killing more townies.

cut by wall

Edit:K, read the wall. Kilga is still right about third parties. Sadly, town didn't have much of a choice in the matter starting D3. Unless you mean before then, but with a flipped town-with-itp-on-the-side and several more people claiming it we couldn't go down a list >> We're stupid for not lynching the insanely obviously not-town Dan and I totally take a good chunk of the responsibility for that given that I WAS THE FIRST ONE TO SUGGEST NOT LYNCHING HIM, despite saying so many times that no matter what he did he can't be town and must get lynched immediately.

Scum lost because they claimed who all the scum were because someone said "hi I'm itp want to joint win?" though and uh yeah. Not the brightest plan when the game was nowhere near conclusion and town have lots of powers, in addition to the part where you blindly trust someone confirmed not of your faction.

[Mitsuki]

Vhaltsuki might as well have been a third third party with how actively unhelpful the stump was being. The player slot certainly had no reason to work toward town's win condition and it showed in the play.

Vhaltz*
He replaced in for me and then he became the tree stump. We weren't a hydra this time.

[Serela]

Oh yeah, I forgot about that.

Considering how likely it is for planeteer-type roles to activate early (Every time they appeared in motk, which I think is 4 times now, they've activated early d2 >_>) that role practically makes the setup 8:3:2. Which is depressing-tier odds. By the time town vigs activate there's a decent chance 4/5 of the non-town are bulletproof to boot. It also makes it less likely the not-town will crosskill eachother, whenever the third parties managed to grab their nightkill and/or bulletproof powers.

[WHMZakeri]

My only grip with the set up is HW got overexcited/panicked, and ended up semi-claiming our whole team. He ended up whisking the whole team up in the ITP Joint without any consideration to how we felt or what we knew. I didn't even have control of my night actions after night three, and the end of day 4 onward happened while I was asleep.
The moment we listened to Dan's BS was the moment this game was destined to become as bad as it did. The Petition to Ban PX from modding joke probably wouldn't have come up if we had lynched him when we caught him as scum instead of trying to pretend the cop had any use.

It was pretty obvious, even as I was going to sleep that unless we took it seriously, we were going to be endgamed, or at least killed by Dan.

The bulletproof/Jailer bit was also kind of crap, since that's the sole reason why we only got off two shots all game. That, and of course trying to NK Shadoweh. You're suppose to keep her alive so I could keep taunting her during the (almost non-existant) rest of the game.

[Kilgamayan]

Vhaltz*
He replaced in for me and then he became the tree stump. We weren't a hydra this time.

No, I'm aware of that. I just wanted an easy word to refer to the player slot on the whole and that was what came to mind. :V

Serela: Both town and scum got bit by third party shenanigans this game, the scum bite was just more noticeable. "Third parties are not your friends" extends to both alignments. This isn't the first time I've seen a third party stab scum in the back, and I'm sure it won't be the last.

[Serela]

No, town got bit hard because scum+ITP joined together for an evil voting block to suppress town d3 onwards.

The only upsides were all the alignments became obvious and then third party turned around to backstab scum, but town was still effectively locked down. Outside of utter role shenanigan miracles (involving me avoiding a kill with ##the moon and actually actually vigging someone not bulletproof and shadoweh bussing kills into also not-bulletproof nontown, at the same time), there was no way for town to overcome the wall the ITPs made by lie-jointing with scum.

And that's with a successful kill prevention and no extra deaths, on D3.

It's partially our fault for being idiots and not lynching Dan, and partially scums fault for falling for the ITP's lies (It's not PX's fault the incompatible anti-towns joined together to destroy the game balance; -that- is actually a point in his favor), but town definitely got bit.

Edit:Oh god. I almost forgot. Scum got an extra nightkill if a no-lynch occurred? Oh my god.

[ActionDan]

hey, at least you had shots to fire.

I wouldn't see me and NNR were super weak, but I do think we had less chance of winning then scum/town.  I do think town had the best chances of winning from the get-go though.

our BP disappeared once IHNN/CF7 died.  And we needed to kill them to win. 

Yes, town lynching me D2 was okay.  Though NNR would have become incredibly vulnerable since it isn't easy to find a good flavor name claim to get away from connecting the two of us.

D3, lynching me was definitely correct for scum to do, but not for town.  I was honestly more hoping town could see the value in this.  you'd wind up with 5:3:1 going into the night.  do you really think town would stand a chance there?  Well maybe considering all their superpowers.  but really really?  then town would lynch NNR and lol scum-win.

even if you don't trust ITPS, even if you are certain that you can't win with them.  You sometimes have to permit them living since the alternative is worse.  I don't know if town would have been able to do that had scum not claimed.  my guess is no.

[BT]

Yeah, Serela, notice that I never defended the setup itself as it does have noticeable flaws. But, see, this kind of discussion where we go through the flaws and what could have been avoided is good, the stuff that was going on till now much less so.

[Serela]

I forgot ITP started bulletproof and then lost it as the game went on, oops

[ActionDan]

btw, BT, from the graveyard, I notice you harbored a lot of hate towards me.

Do you still feel that way

[Serela]

Dan:Yeah, ITP generally doesn't have a great chance to win. You really managed... I don't know what kind of word to use here. Something. >_> It was definitely something. Wow!

I have to congratulate you.

[Mitsuki]

Well, I can't say anything about what the player who replaces in for me does, so it'd be nice if you didn't consider the player slot as a whole and referred to just him.

(It kind of makes me angry because I've seen this over and over just because we usually play together and I want my own individuality to be recognized... if this was the first time or so I wouldn't be saying this)

[BT]

btw, BT, from the graveyard, I notice you harbored a lot of hate towards me.

Do you still feel that way

I said in that last post that the answer is "barely".

Like, if you did actually have a legit reason to lurk then it's whatever (although if someone wants to play they usually end up playing even a bit despite time constraints). Zak raises the main point - that you basically dictated how the rest of the game would go down. To be honest I don't even know how to put to words what exactly I find bad about this. Wasted potential? Disregard for everything else? It was a reaction to you taking the I-can-win-the-stupid-way path like you did in DEFCON. I don't know if to actually hate you for that move, but I hate the move, anyway.

I feel like I have things to say here but I don't know what.

[WHMZakeri]

I'm only angry at Dan because he managed to outplay everyone else, so consider it a compliment.

The No-lynch -> Double kill thing is kind of moot since MotK Play is generated towards if you No Lynch, you're doing it wrong always. The only times we were able to get the second shot was when we were strong arming the lynch anyways, so you can't call that a failure of the setup.

It's hard to argue whether Town or Scum got bit harder, because we both felt it a few days after. We did manage to take the lynch away from town, but at the same time if the town ever got the lynch back for any reason, guess which three people would have died next? (Hint: Probably not Dan or NNR) Everyone was at the whim of the whirlwind of Nightactions and forced lynches, and the fact that nobody had time to think things through pretty much forced us to bend to the will of the third party group.

[ActionDan]

Like, if you did actually have a legit reason to lurk then it's whatever (although if someone wants to play they usually end up playing even a bit despite time constraints). Zak raises the main point - that you basically dictated how the rest of the game would go down. To be honest I don't even know how to put to words what exactly I find bad about this. Wasted potential? Disregard for everything else? It was a reaction to you taking the I-can-win-the-stupid-way path like you did in DEFCON. I don't know if to actually hate you for that move, but I hate the move, anyway.

I can understand you.  but know this: the setup will either reward or punish you if you make the right or wrong move.  in DEFCON, all I felt I could achieve was a draw and went for it.  I was punished.

in this game, I knew a draw was impossible and I wanted a win and knew it would be difficult.  But super manipulation skills via words of cunning and deceit about reads and so on wouldn't have gotten me anywhere.  I had to open up and outright reveal a lot to gain a little, if anything.  And I got lucky, though not from where I expected a boon to come from.  Same with end of D2 to be frank.  I did not try to perfect a claim or anything and wanted it to look sloppy.  so it became sloppy.  I was rewarded.

[ActionDan]

kinda reminds of the later episodes of ATTACK ON TITAN (if anyone has seen it - aka forest episodes)

also <3 Zak

[ActionDan]

if it makes you feel better, we were scared too.  because neither of us could had any night actions.  and once IHNN died we lost our BP. 

[Serela]

Dan's move definitely wasn't bad. He was super doomed d3 if he didn't take the risk, so he took it.

[BT]

Hey, yeah, it was a good tactical move. Believe it or not I did manage to understand that it was the 'right' move but I question the cost. I'm probably just being pedantic about being a better player etc. when the crime isn't THAT bad after the smoke cleared. It's why I've mellowed already.

[PX]

Fun fact: Conq could kill Dan/NNR because he was a loli. So could BT

[Serela]

this game