Town Mafia (Game Over)

[Vhaltz]

On a side note to the game, by the way: I keep using "I" because it's more comfortable to write like that, but I'd prefer it if we were referred to by our hydra name and not just me from now onwards if possible. The posts wouldn't have been the same without Mitsuki here.

[BigBangMeteor]

@Vhaltzotsuki- It makes it invalid because if the confusion can arise from being either alignment, then there is no towncred to be gained from saying you're confused. Look at the thread. Has anyone said or even hinted that any point they thought that I was townier due to saying I was confused at the beginning? If there's no towncred to be gained from it, then it's a completely null move. Your whole premise is that an experienced town player wouldn't make a statement that could be misinterpreted as fishing for cred, but there is no cred to be gained here in the first place.

I know I used Availability Cascade last game. However, that was a completely different case of events, where I had an investigation guilty on me, causing there to literally be only one or two defences I could possibly make to avoid getting lynched. That's quite different from defending myself from a vote made less than 24 hours into the game.

Raikaria's play is scummy and not bad because it's backtracking and giving a reason to something that wasn't originally there to make it look better than it actually was. He says that he's good at making people take a stab at him. To me, this implies that his actions were purposeful. He's saying now that it just happens automatically, but it honestly doesn't look like that to me, in this situation. Perhaps I'm used to my own site meta, where this sort of thing is regarded as really scummy.

And I don't particularly care if half my vote comes from BT. It's early on in the phase and there isn't much to comment on. Someone else got to pointing something out before I did- does that mean I'm no longer allowed to vote someone for it?

[BigBangMeteor]

It's also best not to meta me when I've only played one game on this site as each alignment. That's not much of a sample size or enough to know whether what I did as each alignment is something I do often. Rewrite wasn't a very good game for me either.

Your standards for me seem rather high and I'm not quite sure why. I've proved myself capable of bad decisions as town as well (deciding to clear Shadoweh in Rewrite completely off character).

[Raikaria]

He says that he's good at making people take a stab at him. To me, this implies that his actions were purposeful. He's saying now that it just happens automatically, but it honestly doesn't look like that to me, in this situation.

I never said I'm good at making people take a stab at me.

I said it usually happens.

The early jumpers are usually the town, because I've done something slightly silly. Those people are scumhunting. It's the sharks that come in later, once there is a drop of blood in the water.

Besides, how often do I *not* get ED1 wagoned? You may not know BBM, but it's kinda a regular occurrence for me to get ED1 wagon'ed. It even happened in Sereliest where I was Romney. I'm just *really* bad with ED1.

Where here do I say 'I make people vote me ED1 on purpose?'. I say it usually happens. I don't see where you are twisting 'I'm reactiontesting people' from.

And since it looks to me like you're attempting to twist my words, my vote shall stay where it is. Misrepping is scummy.

[Raikaria]

I'm perfectly happy with not being around at LYLO. I've been around at LYO so not-often that I'm probobly as likely to screw the town as Serela.

Also @ Mods: Requesting deadline extended for 24 hours due to site downtime.

@ Everyone: My activity will be sparce Sat+Sun.  I'm away from a PC for over 12 hours each day, likely 8am ~ midnight.

[ActionDan]

oh my goodness the walls.

my last post had mafia as town and town as mafia btw.

I will continue to use that convention because brain is wired that way.

[Validon98]

Whoever was wondering where I was, I was dealing with the fact that the site changed and thus I couldn't post shit. Give me a few moments, let me read and see why everyone else is jumping on Raikaria now.
Also, filling the thread with ten pages of questions? I don't think I did that in I Wanna Be the Sereliest. >_>;

[Validon98]

Okay, reading Raikaria town as of the moment. Seriously, if people are on Rai's case because of the way the vote on BBM was phrased, you've got to be shitting me. BT is looking more scummy but that's mainly from the "OH LOOK THE VOTE OBVIOUSLY IS COMING FROM SCUM BECAUSE OF GUT" thing he did when he first voted Rai, so I'm not going to vote for him yet. Seriously, though, I could tell it was a joke. So was my vote. =_=;

I believe BBM's confusion as well. I myself was confused when I got my role PM. However, that's not a clear in any way. Rai has a point about the ED1 thing: You misrepped the case. My vote for now stays where it is.

[Dormio Ergo Sum]

I'm still fully behind lynching Shadoweh, by the way.

Vhaltz tryharding is something I don't mind, though I'm not really behind his BBM vote.

Really dislike Raikaria. Considering shifting vote but can't take vote away from Shadoweh. For now.
Puts down random vote at a phase where people are shifting towards a more serious discussion.

My gut instinct said my RVS should go on BBM. That's it. I didn't mean anything more, anything less. If being honest for my reason for placing RVS is a lynching reason, fine. If being too busy to comment on something that I saw as relatively unimportant and weak is bad, fine.

I did not intend my vote to sound serious in any way, hence what I hoped would come across at poking fun at the fact it was a gut instinct. I'm not backing down on anything, I never stepped UP to anything, and if you guys have that impression, well, it's wrong.

I don't even know what the fuck. I mean if you're defending your opinion then it's kind of a serious thing and I have no idea why you're trying to label it as anything else.
Eh, screw it.
##Unkill Shadoweh
##Kill Raikaria

I'm going to assume that by "Rai", Validon is referring to Raikaria instead of Raitaki. Could you please type out the full name considering we have both of them in the game?

[Vhaltz]

Aaaaaugh. Site is back online only a few minutes from my bedtime.

I have like a wallpost of things to say to BBM but after spending valuable time on that I haven't finished it yet. I'd just go to sleep and come back to it tomorrow but there's a little bit of the wall that I have to put out now because it's relevant to a thing I want to address on BT before I go.

@Vhaltzotsuki- It makes it invalid because if the confusion can arise from being either alignment, then there is no towncred to be gained from saying you're confused. Look at the thread. Has anyone said or even hinted that any point they thought that I was townier due to saying I was confused at the beginning? If there's no towncred to be gained from it, then it's a completely null move. Your whole premise is that an experienced town player wouldn't make a statement that could be misinterpreted as fishing for cred, but there is no cred to be gained here in the first place.

But there is towncred to be gained if you're scum faking it?

The point about the towncred not happening because nobody is posting in-thread saying "my god that confirmation post is so town" is invalid, I stated my concern with your post in the first few actual game posts so it's obvious as hell that nobody would go ahead and say it after that. Whether or not people got to use the post as a towntell in their heads and whether or not they got to post about it doesn't change the intent in a post that's fishing for a towntell by trying to emulate a townie reaction to an unusual PM. The intent would clearly be scum and it doesn't matter to this point that the player could be confused with both possible alignment's PMs because only scum would fake the reaction to get cred.



BT, you said BBM's confusion could happen as both alignments upon receiving their PM, and that this was the reason why you thought that BBM's confirmation post reads genuine to you. However, this point about -confusion feasibly coming from reading either alignment's PM- had only recently come up in BBM's post, not before, and it doesn't make sense in my head that you would wait to get home or whatever chipping in meant to post this explanation. When compared to the length of your earlier posts, it seems like you could have perfectly commented on it earlier if this reasoning had actually happened earlier, which reads to me like this reasoning was merely borrowed from BBM to address my question to which you had no real answer before, and this could be coming from scum. Mitsuki and I read Disgagea Mafia a little bit over a week ago and you did evading of questions similar to this in that game. Plus the fact that the reasoning isn't really All That Great like I have explained earlier in the post and that the reasoning is even from your point of view not indicative of alignment at all. What do you think of BBM?

3 cuts waaaaaaaaaaaay past bedtime now see you guys in a bunch of hours.

[WHMZakeri]

Incoming Count
Validon98:    Raitaki (1)
Shadoweh:    Serela, ActionDan (2)
Vhaltzo:    Serious Bananas (1)
Raikaria:    BT, Shadoweh, BBM, Dormio (4)
BBM:    Validon98, Vhaltzo, Raikaria (3)

Not Voting: Affinity (1)

With 12 alive, it's takes 7 to decide the night kill.
As a result of difficulties regarding temporal paradoxes, I would like to remind people that you may request for a 24 hour deadline extension if you feel it is necessary.
You have 23.5 hours remaining.

[Shadoweh]

Words words everywhere this game seems like an era ago
##Request Extension why wouldn't you do this automatically you terrible GM hurry up and give me Conqy

Whoever was wondering where I was, I was dealing with the fact that the site changed and thus I couldn't post shit. Give me a few moments, let me read and see why everyone else is jumping on Raikaria now.
Also, filling the thread with ten pages of questions? I don't think I did that in I Wanna Be the Sereliest. >_>;

##Unkill ##Kill: Validon
Nice try but I meant ~*~before that~*~ when we were actually able to post magical posts of love. Or hate if you're into that. You're either on Nyquil or you're an Innocent Child and the confirmed townies are the ones I make sure to nightkill the fastest. CHOO CHOO BABY. I am 110% committed to your murder right now and encourage everyone to hop on like it's donkey kong.

Okay, reading Raikaria town as of the moment. Seriously, if people are on Rai's case because of the way the vote on BBM was phrased, you've got to be shitting me. BT is looking more scummy but that's mainly from the "OH LOOK THE VOTE OBVIOUSLY IS COMING FROM SCUM BECAUSE OF GUT" thing he did when he first voted Rai, so I'm not going to vote for him yet. Seriously, though, I could tell it was a joke. So was my vote. =_=;

I believe BBM's confusion as well. I myself was confused when I got my role PM. However, that's not a clear in any way. Rai has a point about the ED1 thing: You misrepped the case. My vote for now stays where it is.

Since I am a charitable scumbag and like helping people dig their own holes, how does Raikaria telling a joke make him town? Everyone is mad at him for posting a questionable post, what about it strikes you genuinely enough that you would defend him? Holy shit this is so not like your usual self. You disagree with the majority for no obvious reason!

 :getdown:RED ALERT. SET NIGHTKILL TO STRONGMAN. SEND IN THE NINJA! :getdown:

[Serela]

preemptive apologies for quote wall

Vhaltz:There was extremely little else from the thread then people jokevoting. While -you- had been able to come up with stuff to vote people over, I think those things were completely reaching. (that's okay for the start of the game, but the main point here is there really wasn't anything else worth talking about IMO. Even your own wall-post there is mostly fluff and self-justification)

There's this idea we're discussing that he'd be prideful enough not to want to give off a -weak/confused- image of himself, which would make the post likelier to be a scum strategy for cred, but I haven't played against BBM until now so I figured I'd put this out there to see if we can get more input on this.

TRYING WAY TOO HARD

It is not possible to meta people this thoroughly with any hope of actual success, unless you are a prodigy. No offense meant, but D:

Serela that post, what the fuck is it. I get that it's the first thoughts that pop in your head, but I have no idea what you mean by Serious Banana's 'justified vote' and it sounds kind of like 'other people have explained it's justified so thumbs up!' Tell me if you're agreeing with other people or actually having your own thoughts.

...whaaaat?

Had anyone else even commented on Serious Banana's post...? *Completely mindboggled* Um, no, I said it was a justified vote because I thought it was a justified vote. I don't try to be complicated!

This also begs the question "why didn't Vhaltz think of this" and I'm leaning towards it being a towntell. (I mean, his recent posts has "town" scribbled all over them artistically anyway, but sure.)

agree 100%

Okay, I'm reading Vhaltz' later posts and please please please stop arguing the "BBM clearly trying to mindgame people by commenting on rolepm confusion" point into the ground. It does not have any legitimate logical weight to it. It's conspiracy-theory tier. You complain that BBM is practically handwaving it away and then using it as a reason to keep voting him, except of course he's handwaving it, because it doesn't make sense.

It's harder to actually get reads on people when they're busy being involved in an argument over a fluffy cloud case on them. :c

I'm tired from work and it's hard to concentrate on things that aren't Vhaltzo right now. I'll make another post before I go to sleep. >_>

[Serela]

okay I guess that was less of a quote wall then expected because I got really tired partway through as "At-Work Mode" wore off

[Shadoweh]

Serela when are you going to stop voting me and put down a real vote CAN'T YOU SEE WE ONLY HAVE 23 HOURS LEFT?!?!
I didn't check if anyone else had commented on SB's vote. That doesn't really answer what was justified about it though. 

[Serela]

shadoweh it's not my fault the game was interrupted mid-d1 ;_;

...the logic he was using made sense, hence it was justified?

Am I using this word wrong or does it not mean what you think it means

[BT]

I'll read in the morning. 4:00 AM.

I thought this would be extended immediately.

[Shadoweh]

Bah, I supose I can't expect a paragraph from you about it, but I'm putting you on Kyuubey watch young Sereley! Just talk about The Other Stuff(tm) I'm writing an even biggger post in the other tab.

[Shadoweh]

I'm reading over the walls and the only thing I have determined so far is that Vhaltz isn't allowed to use my own posts against me okay. Also seconding Dan's post, I hope you appreciate the literal glazed eye headache reading this gives me. Seriously, "It doesn't and it just feels like something obvious is being presented in a way that it invalidates the case when it doesn't. This makes the case look weaker in the eyes of others if they don't bother to double-check whether or not the invalidation is valid in itself." Are you writing this like a boring legal document on purpose ;_;

I at least get the gist of your argument, and I'm surprised 'repeat something until people forget where they heard it was true' actually has a name. I don't think this is a bad case. I haven't decided if I agree yet.

It's also best not to meta me when I've only played one game on this site as each alignment. That's not much of a sample size or enough to know whether what I did as each alignment is something I do often. Rewrite wasn't a very good game for me either.

Your standards for me seem rather high and I'm not quite sure why. I've proved myself capable of bad decisions as town as well (deciding to clear Shadoweh in Rewrite completely off character).

But I was town in that game >_> Alot of the roles were based on flavah in that game actually, so your weird logic had basis. Not what I would point to as an example of what a terrible player you are. More importantly, does it matter? You seem conflicted about whether you think Vhaltz is The Enemy in your tone, so I don't see what you're gaining in having a drawn out wallpost argument with him instead of engaging in real scumhunting.

Raikaria: I can see why he thought you were doing it on purpose from the wording, it was kind of vague. Maybe you just naturally type that way and it invites knives?

[BigBangMeteor]

yeah extension please

Vhaltzotsuki- I really don't know what to say anymore. Yes, scum could fake a reaction for towncred, except since the confused reaction can come from both mafia and town, there is really no cred to be gained there in the first place. Yeah, your argument came rather early, but that doesn't mean that people can't answer whether or not they think there's towncred to be gained from it.

I gathered that BT didn't comment on it until after because answering a vote for someone else before they can do it themselves is generally bad play, as it prevents the question asker from getting reactions from the person who was asked the question.

What Dormio says is right. After Raikaria's first post where he voted me for "gut" he posted again saying that it was just gut. Gut is still a semi-serious reason. Saying later that it was just him poking fun at gut reasons is pretty suspicious. Again, I feel it plays into how Raikaria is making the initial vote to be something it wasn't, and him backtracking.

Except I don't think there is anything in Vhaltz's point. I'm not sure where to go, who to push, and where to start.

I'm usually pretty good at making someone try and stab at me, and then other people latch on that and then we get progress. Usually the one who attacked me being the scums.

I honest to god do not see how the bolded does not imply intention. When you MAKE someone try and stab at something, that's normally intentional.

I don't understand the reasons behind Validon's BT suspicion either.

@Shadoweh- Originally I thought that Vhaltzo was more scummy, but I'm inclined to agree he's town for now. I don't see why that means I shouldn't respond back to him, though.

[SB]

Still here, just too tired to properly disect walls atm.

Eh, fuckit. I'll give it a go, I guess.

It's more Vhaltz didn't do it.  Vhaltz then thinks that because he is town, other townies would do the same as Vhaltz.  If someone did it whether it was to fish for cred or not, then they aren't doing something a townie would do, and therefore they are more likely scum.

This is pretty silly. If you use the reverse logic (people who arrive at the same conclusions as me are bound to be of the same alignment) then I'd be automatically reading shadoweh as town, right? And for the record I don't see "getting confused" as a non-townie thing.

Vhaltz's post (#43) seems very long winded and pretty waffly. There isn't really a lot in there about who is scum considering the size of the thing, and a lot of it is about definitions and defense (explaining some pretty simple stuff, we all know scum want to appear townie.) Also just replying with the first thing that comes to your head is actually a towntell since it shows that you really don't care how others think of you (as long as said content is reasonable of course) but doesn't say that other people are mafia for not doing it.

Not really happy with Raik dismissing everything that happened as just RVS shenanigans (and he kind of calls out BT on it but doesn't vote him either.)

ok it looks like the big walls re inbound so i'm tackling them in the morning when I feel actually awake

also extension gogogo

[SB]

up to #52 ftr

[Shadoweh]

BBM: Your answer just now to him was better because it tells what you were thinking related to the game, the quote I posted was spiralling the argument into gameplay arguments involving how you can't be meta'd (you're probably wrong) and all it does is make it sound like Vhaltz is dumb for trying to argue with you and he should stop trying. Not town or scum, just bad for trying. It's a negative argument style, similar to the argument as Creepy Richard. In my opinion when the argument stops being constructive and when you're fairly sure you're not arguing with The Bad Guys it's scummy to continue flailing at someone for attacking you, it's not how we win!

[Validon98]

@Shadoweh: I was GONE for most of the day in real life and didn't have access to the internet, and then the site changed, so I still couldn't access the thread. So excuse me if I'm extremely late to the party, but I had no chance to post anything unlike everyone else here. I know what you're trying to do. You did it last game to me. And the answer's the same: Seriously, what the hell? And as for "disagreeing with the majority," I'm not going to immediately jump on a wagon. I didn't clear Rai, I just didn't agree with everyone's reasons for voting him.

@BBM: The BT suspicion is more or less because of jumping on Rai for the original post. That's it. Nothing else. So it's not really good reasoning. That's why I didn't vote for him. >_>;

[Shadoweh]

This is pretty silly. If you use the reverse logic (people who arrive at the same conclusions as me are bound to be of the same alignment) then I'd be automatically reading shadoweh as town, right? And for the record I don't see "getting confused" as a non-townie thing.

Excuse me this is something you should do naturally kthx. And yes actually, the reverse logic is something you can use. We may not have our mafia quicktopic but we still connect on a hivemind level! Vhaltz's post is very focused on who the scum is, I wouldn't call it waffley at all. Waffley is when a post is almost contradictory in content, driving one way to the other, like a palm tree in the breeze. I wouldn't even call it defensive, he's not trying to defend his personal character, he's defending his case, it's different. Everyone wants to be Right.  :objection!:

[Serela]

Are you writing this like a boring legal document on purpose ;_;

That's funny, because "It feels like I'm reading a lawyer" was exactly what came to mind as I read those posts

I reread the game again but all I'm seeing is Vhaltz and people talking about rvs shenanigans (to be fair, rvs just ended)

Jumping on the ##extension bandwagon because even though I love d1 ending faster, I'd like to feel as if we're actually able to make an effort to find a townie to lynch, I mean, uh, nightkill

[Dormio Ergo Sum]

Oh my god there are so many words yet none of them really interest me.

[Serela]

(to be fair, rvs just ended)

I sure am tired! RVS didn't "just end" but it's more that we lost 24 hours somewhere and this isn't what d1 would look like if we were actually 49 hours in.

[BigBangMeteor]

Shadoweh's Validon reasoning is basically an inactive vote in disguise. So what if he didn't make a serious post for the first 24 hours? That's not voteworthy. And why are you singling Validon out over it, when as far as I can remember, Raitaki didn't either?

Additionally, I don't really understand the second part of the vote. Both BT and you were voting Raikaria for the manner in which he voted me initially. Not everybody finds Raikaria suspicious for that, but I don't think it's a complete misrep of the wagon. Yeah, Validon stating that he's town over that is a bit far, but I don't find it scummy necessarily.

[Validon98]

I think it's because she's trying to pull the same tactic as in the last game: Voting me to get a reaction out of me. I can tell she's not even really being that serious with the vote, too, so that gives me more reason to think that. I think I'm used to Shadoweh's antics by now. >_>;
As for Raitaki's vote, that was also not serious combined with a joke that I totally get.
Speaking of which, I'M SORRIES RAITAKI DO YOU WANT A FFV OR TOUHOU MOTHER LP INSTEAD? ;~;