Author Topic: Town Mafia (Game Over) (Read 67710 times)

Raitaki · « **Reply #90 on:** July 19, 2013, 05:01:16 AM »

Oookay since I'm being roped into going to Disneyland tomorrow for at least half a day gonna try to dig up as much as possible tonight ;_;
Also voting yes for ##Extending the deadline.

Raikaria: Vhaltz's post where he first voted BBM was totally serious and had some content to work with, regardless of whether it was valid or not. Waving it off as an invalid vote looks like an attempt to dodge BT's questioning of his lack of response to it. Even after Vhaltz posted more and Shadoweh urged him to say something players, he still waved everything off as non-content then did nothing. It's possible to justify his sole focus on BBM afterwards as not having a better suspect, but the disregard of Vhaltz's case itches me.

Shadoweh: Errr okay, I'm seriously NOT getting a townread (as in one on our side) on her this time. While she was telling Raikaria to dig up something about peoplez and making use of D1, all she did was poking here and there without following up much or point out anything as scummy, except for Raikaria (cuz of :gut: and wording choices) and Validon (for....not asking questions). Given the stark contrasts between CHOOCHOO VOTE VALIDON and meta talk + lack of dirt on anyone else this looks like pretty much coasting to me. ##Kill: Shadoweh

also brb switching to phone

Vhaltz · « **Reply #91 on:** July 19, 2013, 05:49:13 AM »

I have 5 minutes

##Unvote
##Vote: Dormio

His wagon jump was the exact opposite of the hipster cases that town!Dormio usually does. He generally puts in effort to think outside the group and right now reads like he's trying to look like he's his usual hipster self when he's really just wagon jumping and going with the flow.

Haven't forgotten BBM, just no support for now I'll get back to him later.
Gotta run now.

Raikaria · « **Reply #92 on:** July 19, 2013, 08:29:09 AM »

Not got much free time atm and honestly there's not too much for me to comment on anyway.

Except RVS ended as soon as people started making up ~cases~ on my RVS Serela.

Dormio Ergo Sum · « **Reply #93 on:** July 19, 2013, 09:07:44 AM »

Quote from: Vhaltzotsuki on July 19, 2013, 05:49:13 AM

His wagon jump was the exact opposite of the hipster cases that town!Dormio usually does. He generally puts in effort to think outside the group and right now reads like he's trying to look like he's his usual hipster self when he's really just wagon jumping and going with the flow.

Me? Hipster? What madness are you speaking of?
I'm doing what I always do, which is voting for whoever I think is most likely to be scum at this point.
I mean, do you disagree with me about how Raikaria handled his early votes? Do you think that his behaviour was not scummy? Care to tell me why I'm wrong?
If you don't feel like doing telling me these things, then I don't know what you plan to get at here.

BigBangMeteor · « **Reply #94 on:** July 19, 2013, 09:12:31 AM »

Vhaltzotsuki, I don't really like your focus on meta. Granted, in both cases there was more to the vote and you also made an attempt to explain what about the odd thing that was happening was scummy, but it still makes me sort of uncomfortable.

Raikaria's last post reads like an Appeal to Emotion and I don't like it. There's plenty for you to comment on. I don't think you actually responded directly to Dormio's vote on you, for one thing. You could also talk about what Shadoweh said about Validon, Vhaltzotsuki's Dormio vote, or what Raitaki said about you.

Vhaltzo/Mitsuki, do you guys mind if I shorten your name to VM? The full thing is a pain to write out every time tbh.

Shadoweh · « **Reply #95 on:** July 19, 2013, 10:14:26 AM »

Quote from: BigBangMeteor on July 19, 2013, 03:00:57 AM

Shadoweh's Validon reasoning is basically an inactive vote in disguise. So what if he didn't make a serious post for the first 24 hours? That's not voteworthy. And why are you singling Validon out over it, when as far as I can remember, Raitaki didn't either?

Additionally, I don't really understand the second part of the vote. Both BT and you were voting Raikaria for the manner in which he voted me initially. Not everybody finds Raikaria suspicious for that, but I don't think it's a complete misrep of the wagon. Yeah, Validon stating that he's town over that is a bit far, but I don't find it scummy necessarily.

It's not in disguise <_< The answer as to why it's noteworthy is that it's Validon. To put it into perspective for you, Validon is JustPeachy. Just read the difference between then and now. I didn't read or care what Raitaki was doing, I don't compare people when I'm scumhunting other then to themselves. I know what it looks like when someone is acting oddly out of character. The second part is that Validon tends to vote for majority wagons while agreeing with the hivemind. I think he's having trouble finding suspects and not moving his vote because he's On The Enemy Side. This isn't hard to understand here. To Validon: Sadly I'm not trying to get a reaction out of you today, I'm pretty sure you're Not On My Side, I hope you can appreciate the difference when I'm not trying to mess with you. Politely I request you aim the kill at yourself so I can get a better angle with the headshot.

Raitaki I'm sorry you got stuck with Validon as a Bad Guy Team buddy but voting me when I'm full of CONVICTION isn't going to save you. Accusing me of coasting after posting something like five wall posts, especially when you've posted half as much as me if I'm being generous, means you can fuck right off and die tomorrow.

Validon98 · « **Reply #96 on:** July 19, 2013, 10:27:08 AM »

So you think I'm acting out of "character"? Acting like a complete newbie and voting with the majority is my "character," then? Don't you think I could just be, I don't know, ACTUALLY TRYING TO IMPROVE MY GAME?! Seriously, Shadoweh, I'm not going to stay in newbtown forever. I have to get out at some point. I'm not going to just fling myself at big wagons thinking "welp, this looks good?" If you had actually read the entirety of the last game you would have seen that near the end I actually made my own decisions and my own opinions even if BBM had me convinced he was town. I'm still not taking your vote seriously either, especially when you say things like "full of CONVICTION." >_>;

Shadoweh · « **Reply #97 on:** July 19, 2013, 10:36:07 AM »

It means voting me for not trying isn't going to work when a blind person can see I'm laying out my feelings on my sleeve, including the cocky shades of the best Villain. I read the entirety of the last game, my favorite part was the speedlynch on the last day before Esuna could post. :thumbsup: You'll have to show me how this is you improving instead of playing wait and see if you want to convince me you're not just trying to hide. Tell me what you think of everything that's happened so far. Who's the town and who's the scum?

Validon98 · « **Reply #98 on:** July 19, 2013, 11:21:21 AM »

I honestly still think you're on my case because I'm not acting newbie enough to be considered "in-character." >_>;
Time for opinions before I have to go for a few hours (when I say scum from now on I mean the informed minority that has a town flavor, when I say town I mean the uninformed minority that has a scum flavor):

Raikaria: His initial vote doesn't tip me off as to anything right now. Currently reading null.
BT: Not sure what to think of him either. His sudden jumping on Raikaria I thought was scummy at first, but thinking back I can see it as town just jumping to conclusions. Null.
Affinity: Null to the infinity-degree.
Dormio: I noticed about how Dormio is somewhat sheeping Raikaria after having his vote on Shadoweh. While Shadoweh isn't really making me happy right now, that's suspicious. VM, even if he is using meta, has a point: That is suspicious. Leaning towards scum although I'm not entirely certain.
VM: Lots of meta I don't really know, so thanks for using it? Not sure what to think of him and her, so, null.
Raitaki: Hasn't posted much, but his most recent post looks like he's thinking. Not sure what to think. Null.
Serious Bananas: I seriously don't know what to think of him. His few posts don't really come across as particularly scummy, but it's too early to clear him. So null.
Serela: Not many posts either, but I do agree with what he said about everyone arguing about RVS stuff. Seriously guys, if I have to hear one more thing about Raikaria's initial vote on BBM I'm going to hurt someone.
ActionDan: I have no clue personally. I've kind of forgotten he's part of the game.
BBM: As was the case in the last few games, his posts have this townie air but knowing him I'm not willing to clear him. The only thing with him that angers me is somewhat twisting Raikaria's words somewhere back, hence my vote. Of course, at this point all of my opinions are weak, so I'm going to for now remove my vote until something of more note comes up other than silly RVS arguments.

##Unkill

Shadoweh: The same as always: I can't tell what the hell you are because of all of the obfuscation on your part. What are your opinions on anything else that has happened besides the stuff with me?

That's my opinions for now. I have to go for a few hours. When I'm back I'll probably read a little more. Of course, someone here is going to find my few hour absence suspicious and jump on me too, aren't they? >_>;

Shadoweh · « **Reply #99 on:** July 19, 2013, 11:22:53 AM »

For people wondering WHERE'S THE BEEF on everyone else:

My Favorite Scumpartners: Vhaltz, Uhm.. damn there isn't anyone else I would trust explicitly.
Probably don't need to bus: BT, Dan, Dormio, Bananas, Serela maybe?
Dan needs to stop being an MS hipster and vote someone seriously, with meaningful words in his post so I can mindlink with him
Dormio sounds.. normal, which is weird because it's Dormio (I could see him enjoying truly telling us he's looking to lynch the most obvious scum as he is the best townie, my role pm is green how can I be wrong?) HalfEdit: I think it's because of the random swearing with the Raikaria vote, Dormio doesn't get angry =.=
Bananas is kind of.. there. I don't mean that in a bad way, just quirky opinions that make me think he's a cool weirdo.
Serela needs to post more =_= The conversation with Vhaltz looked kind of good, but I'll be watching to see if you lurk through deadline again.
BT is the only one I don't have anything bad to say about, I don't think he ever screams an alignment to me, so I'm staying paranoidingly trusting.
Possibly mislynch victims: BBM, Raikaria
I can't place whether BBM is acting freely or not, he sounds logical enough, there's just a defensive tone throughout his arguments (including to people who aren't attacking him). I generally dislike when someone uses alot of I dislike, seems weird, without it being clear if you suspect the person you're doubting or not. For an example. BBM, in your first post, you said you disliked how Dormio was ignoring everything, then agreed with his case when he was voting the same person as you. Do you think Dormio's vote was good enough to get rid of your suspicion of him? Keep in mind the voting reason included 'I don't even know what the fuck'. :V You also ignored my reply directly to you about why you should stop arguing with Vhaltz (you haven't) and your tone implies that you suspect me, and him again, but once more you're not being explicit with your suspicions. You need to stop using 'I like/don't like' and start saying 'I suspect x because of' or 'I don't suspect x but they are doing y that is bad' or whatever equivalent. It's really A Bad Thing when someone words their posts in ways that can be taken either way (ironic since this is what you're voting Raikaria for!)
Raikaria, how do I put this. Getting something out of you besides fatalism seems to be like squeezing blood from a stone. Unhelpful people who get moody when they're suspected get lynched because no one likes dealing with a no-content guy. This post is okay, but you need more this. I'm not averse to lynching someone that's not giving up content to lynch. That said I'd probably prefer someone else at this point. You would never guess who it is...

Not that I don't want him to try to lurk a little and get better if he is town, and the offendedness is realistic enough, but I would be quite surprised if people really change that fast.

Raitaki doesn't get a place on the chart because I suspect him out of association and/or because oh my god he sucks. Piss off and bring in something with a better grade.

lolcut: I'm going to bed but I already made what you asked for with my POWERS

Vhaltz · « **Reply #100 on:** July 19, 2013, 01:30:13 PM »

I?m finally free for the weekend! Now I can write walls even more often, isn?t that nice?

Apology kinda
Okay so yes I was faking being So Very Seriously Convinced about my ED1 case on the confirmation post. It was the only thing in-thread that read potentially scummy so I went for it. That said, of course a case in the first few hours of game time is going to be grasping/reaching, but not posting it because of that wouldn?t have moved the game along at all, and pretty much everybody waving off the case as silly also means that the game has taken longer to move along as well. It?s RVS, yes, but you?re meant to take it seriously by faking conviction if necessary in order to move the game forward, or else we go nowhere. I guess being a bit Too Serious about it threw people off and it was my fault in the end, but that shouldn?t have even been a problem in the first place, sheesh. I shouldn't have needed to note this, but I have the feeling that if I don't everybody is going to disregard the rest of my BBM case and anything else I do just because the ED1 case was reaching, plus people might dislike me for my attitude outside the game and I don't really want that either.

BBM Case Revamped
Back on track. At least I got a few reactions from BBM and while I?m fine with the rest of his posts, his responses to my case read scummy as hell. I would like to draw a distinction now between my obviously grasping case earlier and what I got out his reactions to it.

BBM has insisted in being ?not that good a player?, likely to justify that he wouldn?t think of fabricating a reaction to the PM, this is contradicted by two things:

1. Newer players tend to pay closer attention to the cases against them to argue against them. BBM reads like a confident player when handwaving the case against him without addressing much of it.
2. BBM has admitted to have consciously abused Availability Cascade last game, and this is not a strategy that you would expect from ?not that good? players (@Serela: why disregard mind game theory when he has openly claimed to have done it before??).

What?s so scummy in this? Think, why would a good player, as town, try to appear worse than they are? They wouldn?t. The only reason he would?ve said this is because it?s there to try and make the ED1 case less believable.

He also argues that he wouldn?t abuse availability cascade now in a case against him because he apparently abused it as a last resort last game. I hope I don?t have to explain why this isn?t a convincing argument, but I will anyway: It?s just fluff words on the subject that don?t prove that he wasn?t seeking to abuse it now. I?m aware that proving the contrary would be hard as fuck and expecting that is unrealistic, but it?s the way he fluffed around it with self-meta that reads scummy to me.

Like I said before, aside from these reactions to my case everything else to his name so far seems quite pro-town. But players like BBM and BT will always read pro-town, which is why nobody should ignore them in favour of voting weaker players and instead read them harder. Being focused on reading BBM and BT who I figured would be hardest to read this game is why I haven?t quite gotten to read much on other players like Raikaria. I?ll get to that now.

Priorities and other stuffs
Since it might be confusing now to figure out just how scummy I think BBM is now after all that Serious As Hell Business before, I?ll say I think he has slight to moderate chances of flipping scum. Stuff in my head goes like this now.

BBM > BT (stuff I mentioned on him last night) >> Dormio (meta, he reads a lot different from Disgagea. I voted him over BT and BBM earlier this morning in hopes that somebody would make other Dormio meta comments to help me read him) > Other players that need to exist or that I have yet to read through > Serela > Validon.

Serela sounded like scum his first post but then I remembered how much he hates ED1 and the silly post is no longer that much of a tell. He doesn?t sound like breakfast in his recent posts either? and I was going to say he?s being somewhat being his voice of reason self that only rarely happens when he?s town, but I want to scold him because I don?t get why would you ignore BBM like that. Reads like Town!Serela for the most part.

Validon is still JustPeachy and his last ragey post just makes it seem even more likely that it?s town!Validon for me. Shadoweh forgot that while he didn?t jump on Raikaria which was the growing wagon, he was still sitting on BBM?s wagon which was at 3/7. Not a solid town read yet but still would not lynch for the time being.
Unsure whether Shadoweh was just faking conviction here as well or if she's scum seeking an easy target, I can?t get a read on her this game yet for some reason so I?ll just be rereading her along with the other players that are unmemorable or

in my head now. Haven't read the 3 cuts I got after I started posting. This post is enough of a wall for now.

Vhaltz · « **Reply #101 on:** July 19, 2013, 01:30:45 PM »

Oh and yes calling us "VM" is fine.

Serela · « **Reply #102 on:** July 19, 2013, 01:48:08 PM »

doing it for your first vote is fine, it's just that afterwords you went ~*~super serial~*~ and made big wallposts about it that were blugh to read and started pulling more people into your vortex of "what even is this"

Anyway you've already admitted you didn't take it too seriously so, moving on!

Quote

2. BBM has admitted to have consciously abused Availability Cascade last game, and this is not a strategy that you would expect from ?not that good? players (@Serela: why disregard mind game theory when he has openly claimed to have done it before??).

I think I've already explained that the kind of mindgame you were seeing is something that doesn't have any kind of realistic basis :V First off, it's COMPLETELY REALISTIC for a townie... uh... mafia-ey... PERSON WE DON'T WANT TO LYNCH to have made such a confirmation post, and second even if it was mafia trying to fake it... no one would hand them any kind of cred for it >_> It's... just a confirmation post. Really.

I think you're also digging too deep into whether bbm is "a good player" or not. Besides, I think anyone would have done what he did last game. He had a rolecop result on him AND a cop guilty, what else is he supposed to do other then play them up and deny, deny, deny that he could possibly be anti-town due to them?

Quote

But players like BBM and BT will always read pro-town

*HEADDESK*

Anyway, I have to run to mcdonalds to get there in time for breakfast because MONOPOLY PIECES (and because most of their lunch menu is inedible and also expensive), so poof.

Vhaltz · « **Reply #103 on:** July 19, 2013, 01:55:40 PM »

Quote from: Serela on July 19, 2013, 01:48:08 PM

I think I've already explained that the kind of mindgame you were seeing is something that doesn't have any kind of realistic basis :V First off, it's COMPLETELY REALISTIC for a townie... uh... mafia-ey... PERSON WE DON'T WANT TO LYNCH to have made such a confirmation post, and second even if it was mafia trying to fake it... no one would hand them any kind of cred for it >_> It's... just a confirmation post. Really.

I think you're also digging too deep into whether bbm is "a good player" or not. Besides, I think anyone would have done what he did last game. He had a Roleclop result on him AND a cop guilty, what else is he supposed to do other then play them up and deny, deny, deny that he could possibly be anti-town due to them?

Serela the availability cascade isn't aimed at the confirmation post thing. It's aimed at the answers to the ED1 case where he disregards it and didn't address the case while repeating things that are pretty obviously logical but not proving the case wrong in a way that makes it sound like it proves the case wrong. Hence talking about "repeat something (a lie) enough and it'll become true".

The ED1 confirmation post part of the case is completely gone from my revamped case other than the fact that the truly scummy things in BBM's play come from replying to it.

Vhaltz · « **Reply #104 on:** July 19, 2013, 02:09:56 PM »

I got distracted and totally thought that post was finished for some reason.

The thing with the constant denial is that while that might be done unconsciously as a last resort like you're trying to imply, he admitted to abusing the loophole in judgement consciously, so the change in situation doesn't make it any less likely that he'd do it again.

And that bit about BBM and BT is subjective but yeah, I find that they sound townie regardless of alignment (in BBM's case until something like cop results happen like D4 Richard, in BT's case I dunno but I don't remember ever seeing him get lynched as scum in the games I've read he was scum in).

Serela · « **Reply #105 on:** July 19, 2013, 02:22:20 PM »

mmm free chicken muffin

Quote from: Vhaltzotsuki on July 19, 2013, 02:09:56 PM

(in BBM's case until something like cop results happen like D4 Richard, in BT's case I dunno but I don't remember ever seeing him get lynched as scum in the games I've read he was scum in).

Barney in Psycho Prophecy immediately comes to mind (not that I'm trying to prove a point via counterexample, and I guess when I think about it in DEFCON I had to nuke scum!him out of nowhere to get him killed, but)

Okay, so let me go through this again. Your case on BBM is that he handwaved your confirmation post case, and that you think he's using Avaliability Cascade via this handwaving.

...the issue here is your case was legitimately handwavable. And no one really agreed with it, so there's no need for anyone to go as far as to try to discredit it via a method like that.

(I wish you weren't totally not alignment-we-don't-like looking so I could place my vote down somewhere cool)

Raikaria · « **Reply #106 on:** July 19, 2013, 02:27:24 PM »

Except this game started up at a really bad time for me Shadoweh. I don't have the time to put in much ~effort~. I was half tempted to actually /out when we hit capacity at this time, but that would be a dick move to everyone else involved. It's a busy time for me, I thought this game would start like 2 weeks before.

In fact, I'm gonna be missing two whole days anyway, and that's before the other stuff. I'm simply too committed atm for Mafia. At the time I signed up, it was fine. 2 weeks later? No.

Requesting Replacement

Serela · « **Reply #107 on:** July 19, 2013, 02:28:34 PM »

so hopefully affinity's power just went out for a really long time and he's totally okay and will be back by d2 guys

BT · « **Reply #108 on:** July 19, 2013, 02:31:28 PM »

This post might be weird to read because I had some ground to cover and made paragraphs for every player I addressed, which means I had to "update" them several times through.

I think the one thing that would bother me about BBM's Raikaria vote is how he tags along a weak reasoning such as "he's not going after BT/Shadoweh/me?". Felt like something that was added due to a scum agenda (making the vote feel better) over a town agenda (differentiating scummy and not scummy). I can kind of see the vibe people are getting (scum tagging along to existing reasoning [mine], having to provide *something* more lest they seem weak). It's a weak vibe but still a notable one. Something I want to do is read into whether BBM was actually scum-mily misrepping Raikaria with "backtracking" or it's really something he finds scummy and it's reasonable that he sees Raikaria's behavior the way he does. Stay tuned?

I find that badtown!Raikaria is easiest to read over time. It's all in the scumhunting quality. So far he's presented no quality scumhunting (not even a tiny fragment) and that's in line with his scum meta, but I'm ready for the long haul. Actually no. There is one tiny fragment. I think I feel a bit better about Rai-kun.

Validon doesn't seem to want to read into my posts - his assessment of my vote is horrendously inaccurate. Also curious why he thought him saying "I believe BBM's confusion" would be a clear, immediately needing to clarify that it isn't a clear in any way. His later posts don't present scumhunting and I'm inclined to trust Shadoweh's assessment of his character (she's played with him recently + she is likely town here). Now I'm reading his latest post and calling bullshit on "thinking back I can see it as town just jumping to conclusions" because if you were to actually read my posts you'd notice how wrong you were to begin with. Instead this is classic "don't want to deal with this guy who looks town" weak waving. The entire post is a "nothing" post with an ugly suspicion on Dormio that he doesn't even bother to pursue.

##Unkill Raikaria, ##Kill Validon

Raitaki's post makes me think town (gut sadly) but I disagree with classifying Shadoweh's activities as "pokes". Plus it's true there's a notable difference between "110% conviction" on Validon and everything else but it's in line with her character. I see Shadoweh disagrees with this case as well and her reaction is probably all summed up to that.

Something about SB's comments on Vhaltzotsuki bug me but even if I find it I doubt it'd be something big.

BT · « **Reply #109 on:** July 19, 2013, 02:31:42 PM »

RE Vhaltzotsuki:

"Chipping in later" meant that I was deliberately postphoning the reveal of whatever I had in mind. If you're reading through past games anyway, this is actually something I do often early in D1. Revealing what I thought could be a towntell wrt your slot would have meant possibly halting the main discussion going on at the time - I wanted to see who thought you might be scummy and why before putting a stop to it. The moment BBM brought up what I had in mind is the moment where this became pointless and I "chipped in".

chip in
vb (adverb) Informal
1. to contribute (money, time, etc.) to a cause or fund
2. (intr) to interpose a remark or interrupt with a remark

I'm not sure what I think of BBM aside from what I already said. I honestly don't see much to reap from his "I'm confused" post. I don't think smarttown!BBM would have *definitely* avoided posting that as you say. I think it's behavioral, and since none of us know BBM's behavior all that well I don't see this going places.

Uh, no, wait, actually, SB does. He should tell us what he thinks.

RE your recent posts:

I haven't read them yet! I'll get these two posts in first. I did notice you talking about my past scum games though. Try Adorable Game of Mafia feat. the MYLO of sugar spice and everything horrible. Barney in Psycho Prophecy isn't a great example because it was my second game of mafia ever.

So uh yeah reading from #100 now.

Dormio Ergo Sum · « **Reply #110 on:** July 19, 2013, 02:34:49 PM »

Ugh. I'll do something after I go to sleep.

Vhaltz · « **Reply #111 on:** July 19, 2013, 02:35:01 PM »

Quote from: Serela on July 19, 2013, 02:22:20 PM

...the issue here is your case was legitimately handwavable. And no one really agreed with it, so there's no need for anyone to go as far as to try to discredit it via a method like that.

This was not as painfully obvious as it is now back when BBM posted. BT and Shadoweh where withholding judgement back then.

Also I didn't get much after a quick Dormio ISO so my vote goes back on BBM.

##Unkill
##Kill: BBM

There was a small thing though. Dormio, why is Shadoweh still so lynchable that you'd barely vote Raikaria over her when so convinced that Raikaria is scum?

Cuts, reading while I continue rereading.

ActionDan · « **Reply #112 on:** July 19, 2013, 02:52:17 PM »

Oh Shadoweh, your faith in me will probably be rewarded by a horse-head, it's like what mafia give to each other right?

QWERTY. because I can't post now and STOP THE WALLS OMFG. That said ##unvote.

I get the feeling Serela is town this game. based only on style of posts.

Vhaltz · « **Reply #113 on:** July 19, 2013, 03:19:47 PM »

Quote from: BT on July 19, 2013, 02:31:28 PM

Validon doesn't seem to want to read into my posts - his assessment of my vote is horrendously inaccurate. Also curious why he thought him saying "I believe BBM's confusion" would be a clear, immediately needing to clarify that it isn't a clear in any way.

This is totally the towntell you were using on me -not so well-, though. You said that my not considering that confusion could arise from both alignments' PM was a towntell, while I had considered that idea and simply disregarded the possibility of scum posting their confusion in-thread genuinely because I figured they wouldn't want to risk slipping. Validon here just sees BBM's confirmation post as a towntell just because he was also confused and he's town, I'm pretty sure he just associated those two ideas and didn't consider the possibility of informed minority PMs also being potentially confusing.

If not he must've been coached, because even if he had read your towntell thing and tried to emulate it I don't think he'd manage to fake a townslip quite so well in his third game (sorry about implying newbieness Validon, I'm not trying to poke fun at you for it).

Reread stuffs:
The way that Shadoweh seemed to immediately started to sheep BT after his Raikaria vote (by voting Raikaria and seconding his town read on me even though she was implying I was scum being self-conscious a little earlier) and how BT seems fine with leaving his vote in the hands of Shadoweh's meta knowledge reads like a weird buddy thing considering that they haven't addressed each other much. Just a weird gut feeling unsure if scummy.

Raikaria was being hard-headed and prideful about his ways in hunting scum by letting them jump on his wagon etc. I don't agree with his first post being scum and don't think the backtracking in its own necessarily makes him scum- My slight townread on him is more of a gut thing because I can't really argue that he hasn't done anything scummy, it just feels like I'm reading weak townie who gets caught up in bad situation who turns into lynch fodder like what happened throughout pretty much all of Disgagea mafia. All in all I wouldn't be too surprised if I were wrong, I'll have to look further into the slot once a replacement comes in. I also just noticed that I was postponing reading into him so much from my focusing on the harder-to-read-players that I forgot to mention him in my Scum-o-meter.

Dan throwing out town reads before he even finishes reading the thread properly reminds me of town!Dan but he needs to post something that isn't contentless. I still can't read Shadoweh wtf and Serious Bananas is null. Was going to say something about Raitaki but it was reading too far into the post and it's still null, post moar.

HAVE MORE WALLS TO READ DAN I LOVE YOU.

And now I think I'll go do something else for a few hours instead of checking on mafia every 15 minutes because otherwise I'll end up filling D1 with posts like I did in Chelsea and the Seven Devils, I really like playing mafia but I don't want to make everything harder to read for people like I did back there.

WHMZakeri · « **Reply #114 on:** July 19, 2013, 03:54:00 PM »

Cats howling in the night.
Validon98: Shadoweh, BT (2)
Shadoweh: Serela, Raitaki (2)
Vhaltzo: Serious Bananas (1)
Raikaria: BBM, Dormio (2)
BBM: Raikaria, Vhaltzo (2)

Not Voting: Affinity, Walidon98, Action Dan (3)

With 12 alive, it's takes 7 to decide the night kill.
Deadline has been extended by 24 hours.
There are 31.5 Hours left in the night.

WHMZakeri · « **Reply #115 on:** July 19, 2013, 04:01:08 PM »

Conqueror Replaces Raikaria

Conqueror · « **Reply #116 on:** July 19, 2013, 04:09:18 PM »

S'up scrubs. Gimme a few minutes to skim the thread real quickly; I wasn't planning on waking up in 6 hours anyway right?

Conqueror · « **Reply #117 on:** July 19, 2013, 04:31:50 PM »

Okay, I started reading and my eyes glazed over. You people are insane. Let's try this instead.

BBM, you say awfully little of consequence for a person with so many words. The crux of your content is all about Raikaria this Raikaria that, but what stands out to me is that you've taken everything Raikaria has done and spun it in the scummiest light possible. I don't see any evidence you've tried to consider his actions and think about whether they're town or scum; you've made your conclusion already and are fitting your arguments to arrive at that conclusion. Raikaria makes a post saying he hasn't got much free time and BBM dismisses it as Appeal to Emotion (ignoring that town can appeal to emotion too). Backtracking schmacktracking. Raikaria is attacked for his gut read and tries to downplay it (see past examples of Raikaria town doing dumb things in early game and getting attacked for them) and suddenly he's backtracking and that's the scummiest thing ever? So why wouldn't Raikaria!town do something like that?

But enough about Raikaria. The other thing that's bothering me about you, BBM, is that I can't find the train of thought in your posts. Take this, for instance.

Quote from: BigBangMeteor on July 17, 2013, 08:06:40 PM

I don't like how Dormio doesn't try to make a judgement on the consequences of being tryhard. Do you think that it's tryhard in a townie or scummy way? I also don't really like how you're ignoring most of what's going on, while continuing to talk about not-serious stuff.

BBM's next mention of Dormio is this

Quote from: BigBangMeteor on July 19, 2013, 01:18:58 AM

What Dormio says is right. After Raikaria's first post where he voted me for "gut" he posted again saying that it was just gut. Gut is still a semi-serious reason. Saying later that it was just him poking fun at gut reasons is pretty suspicious. Again, I feel it plays into how Raikaria is making the initial vote to be something it wasn't, and him backtracking.

Where's the follow-up on the original statement? Stuff like this is where I get the feeling you're just making up posts as they come; it doesn't read genuine to me. BBM, I want two things from you: a follow up on your original Dormio suspicion and what's become of it now, and an explanation of why you think Raikaria is scum and why Raikaria is so scummy at this stage of Day 1 that I can't see suspicions of any other people in your recent ISO.

##Kill BBM

More in a bit, I hate you all.

Affinity · « **Reply #118 on:** July 19, 2013, 04:33:31 PM »

omg i can't believe i totally forgot about mafia.

will reread soon.

sorry guys.

Conqueror · « **Reply #119 on:** July 19, 2013, 05:05:37 PM »

Welcome back Affinity!

Dan, gimme something so I can know this ain't a Shirley Temple rerun. Where are your reads, like at all?

At first I was going to chew Shadoweh out here for not making any sense, but after reading Validon a few more times I see what she's getting at. The biggest problem with Validon is that all his opinions basically boil down or "slightly scummy I dunno" (Dormio and BBM) or null (everyone else). Shadoweh wasn't really wording things well when she says that Validon acts like a complete newbie and votes with the majority. The main problem here is that if we compare Validon's play here to JustPeachy, Peachy had no problem giving out reads, even if they were very go-with-the-flow and a bit rash at times, but overall he wasn't afraid to vote and argue with people. In this game, he's given us a wall of nulls and nothing concrete, which I could see as newbscum afraid to stir the waters. So, I guess I could go for a Validon lynch too. BBM and Validon also work well together, aww yeah D1 scumpairings.

Validon, if you're town, skip the nulls and give us who you think is scummy and who you think is townie, not a list of what looks like the kind of busywork I put out when I was newbscum. Let's start here. You said that your points against BBM boil down to silly RVS arguments against Raikaria, but if that's the case, what do you think of BBM's current case on Raikaria (afaict it's past just RVS now), and why is it worth dropping BBM over if you don't have any other scumreads?
I'd also want to know why you're suspicious of Dormio over a meta point brought up by someone you're null on, and why you single out Dormio for metaing out of everyone else (because iirc Vhaltz certainly didn't limit himself to Dormio). Similarily, I want to know why you're singling out Dormio for sheeping on Raikaria when there are a bunch of other people as bad or worse than him in terms of content.