Author Topic: Touhou Rage Thread XVI: Last-Second Clipdeaths Edition  (Read 231437 times)

Failure McFailFace

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Re: Touhou Rage Thread XVI: Last-Second Clipdeaths Edition
« Reply #540 on: May 22, 2014, 11:18:57 AM »
That frustration when you kill the boss, then ram into a bullet at the same time.

Even worse in ISC.
1cc Easy: DDC (all) | 1cc Normal: UFO (SanA autobomb),  DDC (ReiA, SakA) , LoLK (Sanae PD)| EX clears: DDC (MarB Ultra) | Puzzle Games: StB: 10-X, DS: Hatate unlock, ISC: All clear

Re: Touhou Rage Thread XVI: Last-Second Clipdeaths Edition
« Reply #541 on: May 30, 2014, 01:56:49 AM »
Lost a PCB Lunatic 1CC on the last spell card =/

Then so pissed off that I kept making stupid mistakes over and over again on the retrys (getting more pissed off in the process). I swear, anytime I play a game, I get 3, maybe 4 decent attempts before I get too worried about what is coming that I auto-pilot and die to stupid stuff in the early stages, or I just get so pissed off that any mistake that is easily recoverable from, I just restart because it's not "perfect"
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Mr Jovial

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Re: Touhou Rage Thread XVI: Last-Second Clipdeaths Edition
« Reply #542 on: May 31, 2014, 01:52:40 PM »
Pretty sure Touhou has been hating on me recently. 2 days ago managed to no item 10-1, 10-2 and 10-8 within an hour which was quite good. Day after that, Mystia kept killing me with Venomous Moth Dance or the nonspell after it. Today in IN its the same deal but in ISC it took me about 90 minutes to no item 10-3, which isn't a particularly difficult card. I really want to play more but when I get this sort of luck its hugely demotivational...Doesn't help that I'll fail Venomous Moth Dance about 75% of the time in actual runs but almost consistently capture it in spell practice  :(

Nolegs the Cat

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Re: Touhou Rage Thread XVI: Last-Second Clipdeaths Edition
« Reply #543 on: June 05, 2014, 04:55:05 AM »
Though this happened last year at least, I'm posting it because thinking back on it still makes me want to curse MoF.
MoF was one of my first normal clears, and BY FAR the longest, somehow taking just under 100 clears. Run number ~60 or so only lost because I got clipped at the VERY END of Aya's last spell, Mountain God Procession. As in, right when it was exploding.
With a 3 bomb stock.
 :colonveeplusalpha:

I said it before and I'll say it again: the continue system ZUN implemented for 10-12 is one of the dumbest things he's ever done.
Amen. One of the main reasons it took me so long to beat MoF was because I couldn't practice except when I did good enough to actually GET to Kanako.... (which usually came down to me not derp-clipping, because I have the annoying habit of resetting if that happens. Damn Hina... :V)
« Last Edit: June 06, 2014, 11:48:44 PM by Nolegs the Cat »

Mr Jovial

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Re: Touhou Rage Thread XVI: Last-Second Clipdeaths Edition
« Reply #544 on: June 05, 2014, 05:49:16 PM »
Ugh, just had an IN LNB where I failed nothing that is on my difficult attack lists (they're the attacks I fail most often and I practice them extensively). Run ended as 5 miss: 3 deaths, 2 failed last spells. Failed Marisa's last spell since I thought I could go around a wall of stars before it reached the edge of the screen, died to Kaguya's 4th non because dumb, double death to Hourai Jewel (1st I got trapped and the 2nd because I went to collect my power items from the first death which screwed the streaming massively. Then failed Kaguya's 3rd last spell because more dumb. Though this is relieving in a way. I've just proven I'm capable of doing everything difficult in the run in a single attempt and it's only a matter of time before I get some improvement...

Silent Harmony

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Re: Touhou Rage Thread XVI: Last-Second Clipdeaths Edition
« Reply #545 on: June 06, 2014, 09:53:36 PM »
I said it before and I'll say it again: the continue system ZUN implemented for 10-12 is one of the dumbest things he's ever done.

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Oh

Re: Touhou Rage Thread XVI: Last-Second Clipdeaths Edition
« Reply #546 on: June 06, 2014, 11:48:18 PM »
I said it before and I'll say it again: the continue system ZUN implemented for 10-12 is one of the dumbest things he's ever done.

They're not dumb. The game literally forces you to play the stages over and over again for practice. They teach you how the game is meant to be played - practice and memorization, not credit feeding just to beat the game.

Nolegs the Cat

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Re: Touhou Rage Thread XVI: Last-Second Clipdeaths Edition
« Reply #547 on: June 07, 2014, 12:32:15 AM »
They're not dumb. The game literally forces you to play the stages over and over again for practice. They teach you how the game is meant to be played - practice and memorization, not credit feeding just to beat the game.

I know that's what it is supposed to be... in theory.
But that's why we have, y'know, stage practice.

For example... If someone can't beat Shou with ~4 lives and game over, for instance, how would they be able to do so with 2? It'd stop them from practicing both Byakuren AND Shou's later attacks outside of, possibly, the first time they get to that level in a 1cc attempt. (For Shou)
You CAN still practice with it, but it's simply much easier if you do so with stage practice - that way, at least you'd always be able to get to the later attacks.
I'm just as against credit feeding simply to clear outside of unlocking stages for practice as you are, admittedly. But at least with the other games you CAN unlock those stages for practice outside of installing score files/abusing the MoF replay stage unlock bug.
« Last Edit: June 07, 2014, 12:37:41 AM by Nolegs the Cat »

Oh

Re: Touhou Rage Thread XVI: Last-Second Clipdeaths Edition
« Reply #548 on: June 07, 2014, 01:27:43 AM »
I know that's what it is supposed to be... in theory.
But that's why we have, y'know, stage practice.

For example... If someone can't beat Shou with ~4 lives and game over, for instance, how would they be able to do so with 2? It'd stop them from practicing both Byakuren AND Shou's later attacks outside of, possibly, the first time they get to that level in a 1cc attempt. (For Shou)
You CAN still practice with it, but it's simply much easier if you do so with stage practice - that way, at least you'd always be able to get to the later attacks.
I'm just as against credit feeding simply to clear outside of unlocking stages for practice as you are, admittedly. But at least with the other games you CAN unlock those stages for practice outside of installing score files/abusing the MoF replay stage unlock bug.

First, if you can't beat Shou with 2 lives, you can summon Red UFOs for more extends. Repeatedly playing the stage will teach you how.
Second, these games are supposed to pose a challenge. You are supposed to spend a lot of time on them. Complaining after 1 or 2 credits isn't a good mindset to approach these games with.

Nolegs the Cat

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Re: Touhou Rage Thread XVI: Last-Second Clipdeaths Edition
« Reply #549 on: June 07, 2014, 02:51:23 AM »
First, if you can't beat Shou with 2 lives, you can summon Red UFOs for more extends. Repeatedly playing the stage will teach you how.
Second, these games are supposed to pose a challenge. You are supposed to spend a lot of time on them. Complaining after 1 or 2 credits isn't a good mindset to approach these games with.

But I DON'T complain after 1 or 2 credits -shrug-
Okay. In theory, you'd need 2 red UFO's to get 1 life, or 4 for 2. Easily attainable in UFO stage 5, admittedly, and having a 2 life starting point would only help one learn these routes, in all seriousness. In fact I think the ability to chose starting lives in practice would be a useful addition - which is essentially what the credit system can be used for. My complaint isn't so much that it starts you off with 2 lives - it's more that it can lock you out of being able to practice the stages AFTER it, and if you DO want to practice it after having taken a break for whatever reason (real life stoof, frustration etc.) it can take 20+ minutes to get to that point - or, basically, it's inconvenient for when you want to actually practice.

But technically everything you've said so far is right... :V
I think I'll agree to disagree.
« Last Edit: June 07, 2014, 02:54:29 AM by Nolegs the Cat »

Silent Harmony

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Re: Touhou Rage Thread XVI: Last-Second Clipdeaths Edition
« Reply #550 on: June 07, 2014, 05:47:29 AM »
Second, these games are supposed to pose a challenge. You are supposed to spend a lot of time on them. Complaining after 1 or 2 credits isn't a good mindset to approach these games with.

Just because the games are supposed to be a challenge does not excuse bad game design. I'm sorry but why have a stage practice that gives 8 spare lives when a continue only gives 2? What is the point?

Not every game will give you extra extends either. The stage I'm stuck on is MoF Stage 6. There's not enough points to get a score extend and Kanako doesn't drop anything to give lives. You literally have to learn to beat her with 3 lives or you can't practice her with 9.* It's stupid.


*This is after numerous attempts. Maybe you can get a score extend if you do well enough but, again, if you can do that you don't need all the lives in practice.

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Lepetit89

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Re: Touhou Rage Thread XVI: Last-Second Clipdeaths Edition
« Reply #551 on: June 07, 2014, 06:14:26 AM »
At first glance, I'd have to agree that the system in those games is somewhat questionable. On second glance, however, I think it was designed with the intention of not allowing you to unlock stages for Practice Mode too easily since all stages can be feasibly cleared with two Extra Lives.

I'm not sure how feasible it is to get Extra Lives in MoF Stage 6 on lower difficulties, but I'd wager that you should be able to get at least one. In addition to extremely powerful Bombs that you have tons of thanks to the Power-supply in that stage, the stage itself is fairly simple as well and you don't have to practice it that often to figure out a feasible way through the part up until Kanako.

SA has a similar system for Bombs and a simple stage up to Utsuho, though I have to admit that you might have a hard time depending on which character you're using. Nonetheless, you're guaranteed to get one Extra Live on any attempt that has a chance at succeeding, though two Extra Lives would be impossible if I'm not mistaken.

UFO Stage 6 is extremely simple and, with the right UFO-route, allows you to enter the battle with six to seven Bombs.

In all games, you still have a realistic shot at winning. The way I see it is that the stages weren't meant to be unlocked too easily, though still leaving you a good chance of winning, which was probably the point of changing the way Continues work. Of course, this is different from brute-forcing your way through the stages and blowing through your Continues, but to be honest, the old system didn't reflect the difficulty of the games at all.

In general, though, you can also simply become good enough at stages 1-5 to finish the last stage without extensive amounts of practice. That's the way I approached the games and I think it's more fun to finish the last Spellcard of the game and go through the slow-motion and huge explosions for the first time after having given it your all in a real run, as opposed to going through eight Extra Lives in Practice Mode. Think of it as a reward, maybe that will help.

Nolegs the Cat

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Re: Touhou Rage Thread XVI: Last-Second Clipdeaths Edition
« Reply #552 on: June 07, 2014, 07:31:21 AM »
In general, though, you can also simply become good enough at stages 1-5 to finish the last stage without extensive amounts of practice. That's the way I approached the games and I think it's more fun to finish the last Spellcard of the game and go through the slow-motion and huge explosions for the first time after having given it your all in a real run, as opposed to going through eight Extra Lives in Practice Mode. Think of it as a reward, maybe that will help.

It's how I tend to do it.
So back to rage....

....I was doing an EOSD hard attempt... I lost at Scarlet Gensokyo, 30% life...

CyberAngel

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Re: Touhou Rage Thread XVI: Last-Second Clipdeaths Edition
« Reply #553 on: June 07, 2014, 09:09:45 AM »
For me, MoF-UFO continue system is stupid because I think it's a bigger waste of time than it's worth. On-the-spot continues allow you to unlock stages easier, and that allows you to practice the whole game as needed. That system, however, forces you to get better in small steps. I'm sorry, but learning how to survive in stage 6 is more effective than learning how to save enough spare lives in stages before it or having to go through the whole game each time just to practice it. I can understand that getting better needs time, but this only adds more time for no reason.

Also, on-the-spot continues are a widely accepted standard in bullet hell games. It's wrong to dissuade people from thinking it's the way it should be when it is that way in so many cases, including other Touhou games. Credit feeding is used in arcades even by masters, you know. Not challenging enough for you? Choose "no", problem solved. Don't force that challenge on everyone and don't complain that there are those who don't like it.

And about that "reward"? Do I have to remind you how finally getting to that final pattern in one credit has you on the edge of your seat, probably even more now that you know how dangerous it is? I find THIS more fun that gameovering to it just because you didn't know what was coming.

tl;dr that's your opinion, people, let others have their

EDIT: I know it was quite a rant, but it's a personal thing. I can tell you for a fact that if all bullet hell games had that continue system, I wouldn't be interested in the genre. Honestly, I can't see what can be accomplished by throwing challenge into people's faces like that, aside from scaring them away instead. I mean, if someone gets interested in this genre, losing score and not being able to save replays are enough of a punishment for using continues, trust me. I'm not all that much against that system, but please don't downplay its downsides.
« Last Edit: June 07, 2014, 10:02:44 AM by C.Angel »

Lepetit89

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Re: Touhou Rage Thread XVI: Last-Second Clipdeaths Edition
« Reply #554 on: June 07, 2014, 09:54:24 AM »
tl;dr that's your opinion, people, let others have their

The one thing in your post I can agree on, though you don't exactly give off the vibe that you agree with that notion yourself.

As I explained before, it's not like it's impossible to unlock the stages. It just requires a little bit more effort, as opposed to the snoozefest that the older system amounted to. If that's too hard, just practice more. The thing is, you need the proficience at dealing with the other stages anyway if you want to clear the game without using Continues, so why not do it as you unlock each stage, becoming increasingly familiar with the previous one? And even then that's not entirely necessary if you just want to unlock stage after stage as quickly as you possibly can.

That's also something I consider to be a reward for my hard work, by the way - unlocking a new stage for Practice, a new playground to develop strategies.

Of course, that's just my personal opinion.

Edit:

EDIT: I know it was quite a rant, but it's a personal thing. I can tell you for a fact that if all bullet hell games had that continue system, I wouldn't be interested in the genre. Honestly, I can't see what can be accomplished by throwing challenge into people's faces like that, aside from scaring them away instead. I mean, if someone gets interested in this genre, losing score and not being able to save replays are enough of a punishment for using continues, trust me. I'm not all that much against that system, but please don't downplay its downsides.

Don't worry about it, I don't think you're the only one who got a little too much into the whole discussion.

As you said, it's mostly a matter of personality. I, for instance, seem to be kind of opposite of your position; I enjoy the challenge, I earn my right to almost everything I want to do by doing certain things, sometimes even of completely unrelated nature. Sometimes, I even make things more difficult, whether it's because of my pride or because of something else.

That, however, is what's appealing to me about these games and I can understand why that would seem less appealing to you or others in regard to the changed Continue-system. Of course, it's also a matter of an entirely different playstyle, but even then I wouldn't entirely condemn it as, even with the system's faults, as perceived by someone of your opinion, it still doesn't entirely prevent you from doing things the way you do them in the older games. It's a little more difficult to unlock stages for Practice Mode, but not impossible.
I'd actually say it's a bit of a compromise in that regard, but then again, previously I just chose "No" whenever I had the option to use a Continue (minus that one time I chose "Yes" by accident, recorded for eternity in my IN score-file), so I guess you could say it's just one way to make the games a little more difficult for the players who do use Continues.

Anyway, I definitely wouldn't condemn the games because of that - it's a bit more of a challenge if you're used to using Continues, but that should also make it more satisfying to win. Of course, that also depends on how much work you want to invest into the games.
« Last Edit: June 07, 2014, 11:54:03 AM by Lepetit89 »

CyberAngel

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Re: Touhou Rage Thread XVI: Last-Second Clipdeaths Edition
« Reply #555 on: June 07, 2014, 02:54:40 PM »
Yeah, that system isn't all that much trouble by itself if you're good enough, it's just a different approach. But I know how frustrating it can get. One time, I reached SA stage 5 with 5 spares and gameovered on Orin's final. Let's just say I didn't want to pick up the game for a long time afterwards. Plus when I reached later stages in full runs and had to continue, I was usually tired enough to not want to work on that stage at that moment. So yeah, different strokes for different folks, I guess.

Tengukami

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Re: Touhou Rage Thread XVI: Last-Second Clipdeaths Edition
« Reply #556 on: June 10, 2014, 10:51:13 PM »
The title of this thread could not be more appropriate right now.

"Human history and growth are both linked closely to strife. Without conflict, humanity would have no impetus for growth. When humans are satisfied with their present condition, they may as well give up on life."

Emerald Mint

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Re: Touhou Rage Thread XVI: Last-Second Clipdeaths Edition
« Reply #557 on: June 12, 2014, 05:52:13 AM »
Days on end and I have still not 1cc'ed SA on Lunatic. I've gone from being close to beating Stage 6 to messing up on the earlier stages. Still, I've come to like it more than I used to lately.

Silent Harmony

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Re: Touhou Rage Thread XVI: Last-Second Clipdeaths Edition
« Reply #558 on: June 12, 2014, 08:30:01 AM »
I'm seriously raging internally right now. Another day another MoF Normal failure on the final card. Arguably the easiest game in the series, and I still can't beat it. Fuck. Me.

Doesn't mean I'm also not raging at the continue system still; it's just that I'm much, much more angry at myself right now.

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Nolegs the Cat

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Re: Touhou Rage Thread XVI: Last-Second Clipdeaths Edition
« Reply #559 on: June 12, 2014, 08:33:05 AM »
I'm seriously raging internally right now. Another day another MoF Normal failure on the final card. Arguably the easiest game in the series, and I still can't beat it. Fuck. Me.

Doesn't mean I'm also not raging at the continue system still; it's just that I'm much, much more angry at myself right now.

It took me nearly 100 attempts to 1cc MOF on normal  >:D
Don't worry, you'll make it. Just don't give up :3

Anyway...
I managed to get to Remi's last non-spell on hard. Two extra lives, 0 bombs. End up losing both.... One was due to me walling myself on the bubbles, and another was me trying to get items...
I rage-quitted and then moped because I gave-up on one of my closer runs... and to top it all off, I perfected Patchy's last health bar, captured killing doll AND vampire illusion.... I abandoned my best run.  :flamingv:
« Last Edit: June 12, 2014, 08:34:45 AM by Nolegs the Cat »

Mr Jovial

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Re: Touhou Rage Thread XVI: Last-Second Clipdeaths Edition
« Reply #560 on: June 13, 2014, 12:45:55 PM »
Getting very annoyed at "Fantasy Seal -Dark-" right now. Do it during the stage? 2 deaths 3 times in 5 runs (other runs were 1 death and a capture). Do it in spellcard practice? 5 captures in 6 attempts.

EDIT: 5 runs I made it to -Blink- (the last spell) on an NMNB Stage 4A run, all 5 times I failed it. "I should go practice it!" Having not captured it on any stage attempt in 2 hours, I proceed to capture it on spellcard practice in 2 attempts. Someone help me.
« Last Edit: June 13, 2014, 02:20:53 PM by Mr Jovial »

Silent Harmony

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Re: Touhou Rage Thread XVI: Last-Second Clipdeaths Edition
« Reply #561 on: June 14, 2014, 01:04:38 AM »
Another day of runs. None make it to stage 6 before ragequits. Hell I think only 1 or 2 even got to stage 3.

Why do I even bother to try.

Before you say "never throw away a credit" keep in mind I've gone into Mountain of Faith (the card) with 1 life in stock many times and barely get 1/2-2/3 of the card down. In my estimations I have to go in with likely 3 spare lives to beat it. Also I can't practice it outside of a full run because "lol continue system" and I don't want to acknowledge the replay bug. Thus I basically have to ND the first 3 stages minimum to beat the game. Easy, except I apparently stink worse than I could've ever imagined. Again: Fuck. Me.
« Last Edit: June 14, 2014, 01:11:00 AM by Mimeslayer »

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I have no name

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Re: Touhou Rage Thread XVI: Last-Second Clipdeaths Edition
« Reply #562 on: June 14, 2014, 01:11:09 AM »
Thus I basically have to ND the first 3 stages minimum to beat the game. Again: Fuck. Me.
There is another option: improve at Stages 4 and 5.  Stage 5 in particular can be learned pretty effectively-it's probably an easier stage to not die in than Stage 3.  Stage 4 is Stage 4 but there's ways around most of it, even if that answer is a bomb to Aya's face.

Mountain of Faith is one of those cards you get better at the more you play it-the main advice I can give is that there's always a way around the 'walls' of cards on normal, so if you read farther ahead and just know where your character is instead of needing to look, it becomes easier.  It's a brutally difficult card until that point, so keep at it and eventually it should just click.

Mr Jovial

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Re: Touhou Rage Thread XVI: Last-Second Clipdeaths Edition
« Reply #563 on: June 14, 2014, 03:59:33 PM »
I really hate it when I spend 2-3 hours on the first 3 stages of IN. I basically have to perfect them to get a 2 miss run or better but its so demotivating when I go through 20+ attempts with no success :<

Justin

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Re: Touhou Rage Thread XVI: Last-Second Clipdeaths Edition
« Reply #564 on: June 15, 2014, 10:22:28 PM »
So, I was attempting to unlock the MoF extra stage on my cousin's computer, and made it to Kanako's Mountain of Faith. I had about 5 mini-heart attacks from near misses and a lack of bombs, and as soon as I depleted all her health, I rammed right into a bullet as she was exploding! Certainly not one of my best days...
Current Goals (BC I guess this is a thing):
1CC all 2hu on normal: All clear!
1CC all 2hu on hard: LLS, EoSD, PCB, IN, MoF
Clear all extras: EoSD, PCB, IN, MoF, SA
SA Hard Mode is kicking my butt ;-;

Nolegs the Cat

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Re: Touhou Rage Thread XVI: Last-Second Clipdeaths Edition
« Reply #565 on: June 16, 2014, 10:11:04 AM »
So, I 1cc'ed PCB on hard!  :3

Unfortunately, I died to her penultimate... at the VERY END. At that point all I'd done is the prerequisite border break at the start  :colbert:


Last-second clip death indeed. :V

Mr Jovial

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Re: Touhou Rage Thread XVI: Last-Second Clipdeaths Edition
« Reply #566 on: June 16, 2014, 06:21:18 PM »
Another 3MNB IN LNB run. Died to Tewi's 1st and Mind Stopper; failed Rising World. Was quite surprised by this, I actually said "I'm too tired to play" a couple of restarts before when I forgot to move during Wriggle's last spell. Mind Stopper death was dumb but oh well. It's been over a month since I had a run this good so whatever.

Re: Touhou Rage Thread XVI: Last-Second Clipdeaths Edition
« Reply #567 on: June 19, 2014, 10:56:17 AM »
i hate this game it's so fucking frustrating.

you'd think that 4 hours of retrying stage 3 sa Loonie would net you some progress but I get fucking none seriously i just want to punch yuugis face holy shit.

i dont udnerstand i can no bomb no death stage 1 and stage 2 why is STAGE 3 SO HARD. i swear im going to cry any moment this is too sad
« Last Edit: August 07, 2014, 03:50:51 PM by Wind God Guy »

Failure McFailFace

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Re: Touhou Rage Thread XVI: Last-Second Clipdeaths Edition
« Reply #568 on: June 19, 2014, 05:23:10 PM »
GGGGGGGAAAAAAAAHHHHHHH
1cc Easy: DDC (all) | 1cc Normal: UFO (SanA autobomb),  DDC (ReiA, SakA) , LoLK (Sanae PD)| EX clears: DDC (MarB Ultra) | Puzzle Games: StB: 10-X, DS: Hatate unlock, ISC: All clear

Sakurei

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Re: Touhou Rage Thread XVI: Last-Second Clipdeaths Edition
« Reply #569 on: June 19, 2014, 05:39:29 PM »
Tanuki+Mallet lets you tank through the spinning phase completely, assuming your Tanuki is at maximum level. Generally is the Tanuki+Mallet broken as hell. It's not very difficult card at all if you know the right combination.