Author Topic: Disgaea Mafia -Game Over-  (Read 48493 times)

Schezo

  • en-counse
Re: Disgaea Mafia -Day 1-
« Reply #120 on: January 07, 2013, 10:24:54 PM »
Next person to take a crack at Bardiche replacing out gets modkilled.

Schezo

  • en-counse
Re: Disgaea Mafia -Day 1-
« Reply #121 on: January 07, 2013, 10:33:24 PM »
You don't put ketchup on your eggs? Burn for it!

Dorian (1): Huh What
BT (2): Conq, NekoNekoRex
Shadoweh (2): Dormio, PX
Dormio (0):
PX (1): Shadoweh
Ihavenoname (0):
Affinity (1): Serela
Drrawr (0):
Conq (1): BT
NekoNekoRex (0):
HuhWhat (2): Affinity, Dorian
Hero999 (0):
Serela (2): Hero999, ihavenoname

Not Voting: Drrawr

With 13 left Alive, it takes 7 to lynch.

~52 hours left

BT

  • I never talk to you
  • *
  • People say that I should
Re: Disgaea Mafia -Day 1-
« Reply #122 on: January 07, 2013, 10:39:15 PM »
Okay, so what about those posts are more likely to come from town!what than scum!what wrt what I posted earlier? Also, hw seemed pretty serious before the PX lynch in M31 (discounting RVS shenanigans where we were all trolling), so how is that unlike what he did here? That entire slapfight with Om was bloody painful to read.
Thought process. Looked like he was intent he really found something rather than blowing things out of proportion.
Funny you mention the Om slapfight. The painful thing about that part was hw answering shit with "lol" and variants. That'd be the prime example of nonserious play.

Maybe I'm biased because I was a death miller once but it would be nice to give a chance for night actions and dayplay to take care of the "death miller" before we start making proclamations about them. Same deal as with normal millers etc.
Odds are it'll still be a gamble at a later stage in the game. Whatever, it's why I don't want to do it *now* or anything.

What? So like I want to look at that one word there.
Mislynch. Your confidence that Huh What is an mislynch confuses me.
I meant to quote you and say quicklynch but that's not surprising, I am pretty confident about this read.

What I don't get about your vote is why is Serela distancing?

BT suggesting we policy lynch NNR is a terrible idea since any attempt to analyze from his flip is WIFOM. Policy vig, though, sure. If you're just using the threat of policy lynch as rhetoric to push your NNR case then you should probably admit to it and stop.
We're not going to get anything from the flip (unless there's a distinction between death miller flip and, say, mafia pr) but I know I don't want that kind of thing in LYLO, it's not a rhetoric. Me finding him scummy is just another reason to do it.

Just want you to know this is a highly pointless statement since my flip is only going to mislead town.
You realize that I just want to kill you more now.

In fact I don't really like any of that big BT post at all. Lots of meta and I don't like the case on him. Particularly the part where you called Conq's #45 post bad, which I thought was a townie post.
What's wrong with meta? And I'm pretty sure I explained #45, so you're pretty much disliking because disagreeing. And you base your vote off of this.

Am I crazy for thinking this is scum?

Re: Disgaea Mafia -Day 1-
« Reply #123 on: January 07, 2013, 10:45:46 PM »
Thought process. Looked like he was intent he really found something rather than blowing things out of proportion.
This actually seems like cherry-picking arguments since in my last post I even said that my PX vote was "scummy enough for ED1". I thought I found something, but not something notable.

Can you re-summarize your case on Conq? The gist of it seems to be meta (which I disagree with) + that you disagree with his vote, and I'd argue Bard and Affinity were worse as far as my wagon goes. Why do you disagree with the Bard vote, anyway?

Hero999

  • Banzai!
  • Beep~
Re: Disgaea Mafia -Day 1-
« Reply #124 on: January 07, 2013, 10:54:17 PM »

@BT:
Honestly though, I want to distance from everything that just happened overnight as fast as possible. I don't think a clusterfuck like that is super helpful in trying to actually determine townies from scum (or vice versa, whatever)

@On another note, what NNR just did could be counted as OMGUS right!?
omgomgomgomgwhatascumomgomgomg.
Wierdddddd answers.


BT

  • I never talk to you
  • *
  • People say that I should
Re: Disgaea Mafia -Day 1-
« Reply #125 on: January 07, 2013, 11:12:53 PM »
This actually seems like cherry-picking arguments since in my last post I even said that my PX vote was "scummy enough for ED1". I thought I found something, but not something notable.

Can you re-summarize your case on Conq? The gist of it seems to be meta (which I disagree with) + that you disagree with his vote, and I'd argue Bard and Affinity were worse as far as my wagon goes. Why do you disagree with the Bard vote, anyway?
Well yeah, RVS-relative. Not cherry-picking anything.

Why do you disagree with that meta? I said it reminded me of that so it's not really something wrong / right.

I guess it's more that I feel the questioning didn't come from a townie place and then his backing off didn't fit what he said earlier about activity. Hard to put to words as is but I don't think I'm wrong.

About the Bard case: For starters, I don't know why putting you to L-1 is a point against him. All that's left is the whole "accused me of getting towncred" thing which isn't that strong.

I already said I'd support an Affinity wagon.

What do you think about NNR?

@Hero: You find nothing worse than that so far?

@On another note, what NNR just did could be counted as OMGUS right!?
omgomgomgomgwhatascumomgomgomg.
Wierdddddd answers.
Yeah pretty much. He doesn't like my posts so whoops vote. I'd say that he's riding on Conq's case cred but Conq doesn't really have a case either.

Re: Disgaea Mafia -Day 1-
« Reply #126 on: January 07, 2013, 11:26:02 PM »
Not really convinced NNR would think to pull a death miller claim. Don't really agree with anything he's said (his vote on you reads as "I disagree with BT's case") but I don't see scum intent in his posts. Can't really judge his very first post since he hadn't read the thread.

Bard's vote is scummy because he was ignoring information that made his case fall apart. Plus he was weighing voting me and Shadoweh and went for the shitty vote on the huge wagon instead of doing anything to elicit actual content from Shadoweh.

Meta-ing Conq based on a game where he was ITP is pointless because ITPs know they're not scum and will legitimately scumhunt early on to look like town. The "scum/town differences" would mainly pop up when on the defensive and trying to avoid pressure, not when scumhunting.

NekoNekoRex

  • Catgirls are Charming!
  • *
  • Catgirl Enthusiast
Re: Disgaea Mafia -Day 1-
« Reply #127 on: January 07, 2013, 11:30:09 PM »
Quote
Yeah pretty much. He doesn't like my posts so whoops vote.
Except that it isn't OMGUS. You said I looked scummy and said I should get lynched at some point for existing. There's no vote on me either???  You're very clearly suspecting me on my claim over my content.
I'm not even voting you for your "case" on me. Your line of thought is reason enough to find you scummy.

I don't like your case on Conq. It's mostly taking a crack at RVS posting (which has little basis due to lack of content to discuss), and also:
Quote from: NekoRex, all the time
Meta is bad and you should feel bad for using it.
When I read "this reminds me of <X Past Game Of Mafia> followed by a vote, that's automatically bad play.

Your scumhunting is bad and looks scummy therefore ##Vote: BT. Pretty simple. Feel free to contest that as scummy somehow.
Kilga is this right; like is this person seriously the player, and it's not some alias or something that's designed to be deliberately obfuscating? NekoNekoRex. Who the hell is that :C   ~Poya Aaaa (Serela), Bunny Must Die Mafia

BT

  • I never talk to you
  • *
  • People say that I should
Re: Disgaea Mafia -Day 1-
« Reply #128 on: January 07, 2013, 11:57:02 PM »
Except that it isn't OMGUS. You said I looked scummy and said I should get lynched at some point for existing. There's no vote on me either???  You're very clearly suspecting me on my claim over my content.
I'm not even voting you for your "case" on me. Your line of thought is reason enough to find you scummy.
You're not making any sense. I'd gladly lynch you right now but that claim was an automatic "ehh no" to most people. Where's the scummy line of thought?

I don't like your case on Conq. It's mostly taking a crack at RVS posting (which has little basis due to lack of content to discuss)
In case you're new here, RVS lasts a few hours. Then it ends. Do you not like the case or the fact that it was based on some imaginary RVS?

Your scumhunting is bad and looks scummy therefore ##Vote: BT. Pretty simple. Feel free to contest that as scummy somehow.
Considering you're still voting me off of nothing coherent, yeah, pretty scummy. Feel free to show me where I went wrong with my scumhunting because I don't see it.

NekoNekoRex

  • Catgirls are Charming!
  • *
  • Catgirl Enthusiast
Re: Disgaea Mafia -Day 1-
« Reply #129 on: January 08, 2013, 12:23:24 AM »
You're not making any sense. I'd gladly lynch you right now but that claim was an automatic "ehh no" to most people. Where's the scummy line of thought?
It was "labelling my vote as OMGUS".
Quote
In case you're new here, RVS lasts a few hours. Then it ends. Do you not like the case or the fact that it was based on some imaginary RVS?
Your case is based on stuff Conq posted when there was almost nothing to discuss (and not half the players even had content yet). That's definitively RVS.

Quote
Considering you're still voting me off of nothing coherent, yeah, pretty scummy. Feel free to show me where I went wrong with my scumhunting because I don't see it.
Fine, in depth time.

Here's your #94.
##Vote Conq

The whole wave of Conq questioning sent me straight back to Angel Beats! Scum!Conq when he pushed my Dan vote at early D1. META WARNING THIS IS BAD

This in particular is crap when his entire case was specific to PX and is just more fuel for the fire. What does this even mean? The case was about PX so it automatically ignores everyone else doing the same thing as PX?

And then there's this:The whole L-1 thing happens yet no response to it nor to HW's recent posts plus a vote that does absolutely nothing. When one of the reasons for the HW vote was "I like activity" and you follow with this I'm ready to call bullshit. Why is Conq obligated to react to HW's gambit? How does that make him scummy?

Oh look, it's the post I admitted to making while half-asleep.
Next in line to die for that first part. Good thing he claimed Death Miller since that means we get to PL him before LYLO anyway. Because let's get straight to the point: screw my content, I claimed scan-immune. I don't like the part in his #90 about Conq either: it sounds like he literally likes him for supporting the claim (while, by the way, other people have done the same, but no mention of that). Next he'll say I'm buddies with Conq for thinking he's a townie. Why not say outright that his BT vote is lacking in reasoning I did though., or state your reasons for "going to say I dislike Conq? Must have missed the part where I said "I misread his posts".  Are you buddies??Whoops, you caught me!
Kilga is this right; like is this person seriously the player, and it's not some alias or something that's designed to be deliberately obfuscating? NekoNekoRex. Who the hell is that :C   ~Poya Aaaa (Serela), Bunny Must Die Mafia

Affinity

  • hoho
  • ... but I have promises to keep.
Re: Disgaea Mafia -Day 1-
« Reply #130 on: January 08, 2013, 01:06:48 AM »
null + forced + meta = scum is bad math and worse mafia.

In any case, BT's tenuous reasons for voting Conqueror (bad reasons for voting hw; Conq unvoting hw for bt without words at L-1) seem to have decayed to nothing in their exchange.

I don't see the point of his vote any more after #102, where Conq explains it away.  BT making mountains of *activity* as a main reason on Conq's part is rather silly, while ignoring the bulk of #102 and proceeding to hammer NNR hints at insecurity as scum.  His choice of subsidiary suspects irk me as well. 

##Unvote
##Vote: BT

Affinity

  • hoho
  • ... but I have promises to keep.
Re: Disgaea Mafia -Day 1-
« Reply #131 on: January 08, 2013, 01:15:28 AM »
huhwhat's #112:  PX 'working from sunset to sunrise' clearly entails the present and not the future.  Still don't get how PX's reportery post was not empty or how he was 'setting up for an unvote' when he just jumped onto the first person who said something against him (Shadoweh). 

More to follow much later.

Re: Disgaea Mafia -Day 1-
« Reply #132 on: January 08, 2013, 01:21:45 AM »
huhwhat's #112:  PX 'working from sunset to sunrise' clearly entails the present and not the future.  Still don't get how PX's reportery post was not empty or how he was 'setting up for an unvote' when he just jumped onto the first person who said something against him (Shadoweh). 
PX and I both live in California and iirc it was dark out when he made that post so I assumed

I got the impression PX was operating under the same "this isn't horribly scummy but there's nobody scummier so it's worth keeping" ED1 logic I was. He jumped to Shadoweh once she posted something he found scummier, I jumped to you / Bard for the same reason + PX's response wasn't that horrible. Honestly I can't go into detail because my response was mainly kneejerk gut thing (look at post times) since I thought his post would be more of a cop-out as scum. Maybe my expectations were too low. In any case I don't see anything that makes me want to target him again atm.

Not really interested in BT wagon, I can kind of see where he's coming from with the non-meta part of his case after his response, I just... don't agree Conq is scummy. If I were to switch to another wagon atm it'd be Serela. Not sure what you mean by BT looking insecure, Affinity, care to elaborate?

Re: Disgaea Mafia -Day 1-
« Reply #133 on: January 08, 2013, 01:23:56 AM »
oh whoops i just realized it was "sunset to sunrise" and not the other way around

that's entirely my bad, then

Re: Disgaea Mafia -Day 1-
« Reply #134 on: January 08, 2013, 01:24:47 AM »
Also, working from Sun rise to Sun set sucks
no wait, it is sunrise to sunset

?????

Serela

  • Moon Tiara Magic
  • VIA PIZZA SLINGING
Re: Disgaea Mafia -Day 1-
« Reply #135 on: January 08, 2013, 01:33:51 AM »
Definitely unsupport of BT wagon
Even though Conq blatantly disagrees with BT and thinks BT is scum I'd be unsupport of a Conq Wagon too (which doesn't exist anyway)

I like how Dormio calls me out on not having done much while simultaneously only doing weak pokes at me and NNR (the latter even which was even a mistake)
...is what I'd like to say, but he's done some stuff earlier (And given it's like 24 hours into the game what he's done so far is a normal amount), so actually he's fine I guess :T

Quote from: IHNN
So you don't want to vote Dormio or Bard Dorian because they're posting short messages? 
way2misrep
Anyway, their messages aren't actually short, if you went and look at them. It's just that they're actually organized and easy to interpret and, well... USEFUL. I can read their post and know what they're thinking and why and they're being efficient. AKA the "concise" part. To be blatantly obvious about it, I'd actually not want to lynch them on the basis that I'd find the game much more enjoyable with people posting like that even if I ended up losing because of it, but I still did think they didn't look scummy anyway, so that doesn't matter much.

I was lazy and didn't go into the actual content as HW said because forced RVS end tier stuff is like impossible for me to read and opinions on it mostly go the same direction. This is what happened in... I think it was the previous game? It's hard to remember given that was 3 months ago or so, but I think I did the same thing in the previous game.

Quote
Dormio also wants to ask Serela if Serela thinks that Affinity's reaction is worse than anything and everything else in the thread
Worst =/= Most looking like the player might be scum (the again this depends on what exactly the particular person means by "worse" since that can actually vary a lot)
In any case it was like 10 hours into the game, I wasn't exactly putting much faith into anything. But, to be honest, even as I reread the thread, I don't really have worse then a null read on anyone. Most of the people actively posting (therefore giving me anything to get a read from) are being things I don't want to lynch, and then the remainder don't have much for me to go off. I rarely enjoy trying to post on D1.

Lemme try to gather my thoughts on everyone. Thoroughness and opinion displaying is good because I have little to say that's actually consequential, so, better go for what's left. (By the way, in retrospect this is basically just explaining six null reads. It's boring.)
-I think Hero's case on me is silly, but it's only 24-ish hours into the game and Hero is somewhat silly normally anyway, so I'm null.
-IHNN has all of one real post iirc and I already responded to it. One post isn't enough in this case for me to think anything.
-Drrawr doesn't exist yet
-I can never correctly read HW, -ever-, he practically always looks town, same here
-PX's most recent posts are being involved in the silly HW spat thing, and I can't get a thing from that rvs-generated argument because it's made of useless.
-Shadoweh's 76 is the only post recent enough to deal with anything that matters. The wagon analysis is still too early in the game to look like it specifically came from a certain alignment. Even if I had HW and PX's flips.

Aaaand that leaves Affinity. I'm actually voting him, of course, so, uh. Let's see here. Okay, now I have to go reread BT because that's his new case. Okay, I see where Affinity is coming from about Bt's vote on Conq (even if I don't think it's as bad as Affinity does, I see what he means), but the hinting at insecure scum about the NNR stuff seems like it's either something I'm not mafia-pro enough to ever think about or is just kind of... huh?

I think considering how early in the game it is, I think Affinity's comment on subsidiary suspects is pretty silly.

(Also, I'm planning on going to bed early and not reappearing until late tomorrow because I have a long shift starting at 7:30am tomorrow, bleh. So I'll be pretty nonexistant for awhile. Hopefully I get Wednesday off, that would be fabulous to be around for the end of the day.)





<mauvecow> see this is how evil works in reality, it just wears you down with bureaucracy until you don't care anymore

Re: Disgaea Mafia -Day 1-
« Reply #136 on: January 08, 2013, 01:39:15 AM »
you posted opinions on the entire game and you have concrete reads on, what, two players?

honestly want to kneejerk vote Serela but I'll wait for The Shadoweh Verdict?

Re: Disgaea Mafia -Day 1-
« Reply #137 on: January 08, 2013, 01:41:26 AM »
actually fuck that your vote is literally justified by "I think Affinity is pretty silly I guess"

##Unvote
##Vote: Serela

Serela

  • Moon Tiara Magic
  • VIA PIZZA SLINGING
Re: Disgaea Mafia -Day 1-
« Reply #138 on: January 08, 2013, 01:42:42 AM »
you posted opinions on the entire game and you have concrete reads on, what, two players?
And most of the game has made, like, two posts that aren't in rvs?

And then you voted me

uh

well my case on affinity isn't really that great I guess but this still feels really weird :T I'm sleepy.
<mauvecow> see this is how evil works in reality, it just wears you down with bureaucracy until you don't care anymore

Serela

  • Moon Tiara Magic
  • VIA PIZZA SLINGING
Re: Disgaea Mafia -Day 1-
« Reply #139 on: January 08, 2013, 01:43:20 AM »
And most of the game has made, like, two posts that aren't in rvs?
forgot the addendum that mentioned most of them are only 1 really insignificant one
<mauvecow> see this is how evil works in reality, it just wears you down with bureaucracy until you don't care anymore

Re: Disgaea Mafia -Day 1-
« Reply #140 on: January 08, 2013, 01:45:51 AM »
if by "isn't really great" you mean you said you see where he's coming from but don't understand part of his post and this makes him scummy because...... because............ then yeah

every single read on somebody you might find suspicious (dormio, hero) is instantly handwaved away

you're not trying to find intent behind posts

this is the exact same active lurking shit you did in adorable and mc

Serela

  • Moon Tiara Magic
  • VIA PIZZA SLINGING
Re: Disgaea Mafia -Day 1-
« Reply #141 on: January 08, 2013, 01:50:00 AM »
I really should superlurk more d1s. It just next-to-always works out better then trying to actually post before D2.
<mauvecow> see this is how evil works in reality, it just wears you down with bureaucracy until you don't care anymore

Re: Disgaea Mafia -Day 1-
« Reply #142 on: January 08, 2013, 01:53:40 AM »
serela, if you're town, then how the hell can you write that post and think "yeah, this is good and will help lynch the scum, sure!", ever

it reads like you're posting for the sake of posting. you're making excuses for half the game not being scummy and need to force yourself to hate people

Serela

  • Moon Tiara Magic
  • VIA PIZZA SLINGING
Re: Disgaea Mafia -Day 1-
« Reply #143 on: January 08, 2013, 01:54:57 AM »
I'm... I'm not good at hating people D: I'm always apologizing to people in case they're actually town and not faking what they're doing!
<mauvecow> see this is how evil works in reality, it just wears you down with bureaucracy until you don't care anymore

Shadoweh

  • I will ahn~ vote count for you
  • *
  • The STRONGEST Day Effect
Re: Disgaea Mafia -Day 1-
« Reply #144 on: January 08, 2013, 03:45:28 AM »
If I make a bigger post in the next 2 hours I will be maimed, but vaguely reading. Beating on Serela assists in getting a read on him though.
Serela, who do you think is scummy exactly? I see a couple unsupports but I don't see anyone you dislike.


Kitten4u: "I'll say it plainly: THERE IS NO WAY SHADOWEH IS SCUM!" - A Balanced Game of Mafia

Serela

  • Moon Tiara Magic
  • VIA PIZZA SLINGING
Re: Disgaea Mafia -Day 1-
« Reply #145 on: January 08, 2013, 03:47:35 AM »
Affinity would be the closest thing I have to a scumread roughly 24 hours into the game

There's plenty of people I think I might dislike if they had more then one real post? But, um.
<mauvecow> see this is how evil works in reality, it just wears you down with bureaucracy until you don't care anymore

Conqueror

  • Here I am, dirty and faceless
  • waiting to heed your instruction
Re: Disgaea Mafia -Day 1-
« Reply #146 on: January 08, 2013, 07:04:19 AM »
Thought process. Looked like he was intent he really found something rather than blowing things out of proportion.
Funny you mention the Om slapfight. The painful thing about that part was hw answering shit with "lol" and variants. That'd be the prime example of nonserious play.
huhwhat already covered this but I thought it was pretty clear that he was deliberately blowing his vote out of proportion, whatever the intent.

I guess it's more that I feel the questioning didn't come from a townie place and then his backing off didn't fit what he said earlier about activity. Hard to put to words as is but I don't think I'm wrong.
See, this is the problem I have with your play. You make the statement that my questioning didn't come from a townie place, using ~*Angel Beats*~ as a reference point because I was a SK there. I say I actually thought you were scum there, you say of course you can't trust me. Well, I'll take the opportunity to go ahead and link my third party QT from that game which backs me up. Your statement about my backing off of huhwhat not fitting my wanting to make activity with bandwagons is bollocks precisely because of when I backed off; huhwhat was already at L-1 and there was other stuff going on, so what is keeping my vote there going to do if I don't have anything new to say about him? Hell, how would me not backing off fit what I said earlier about activity? Activity is all about action as opposed to stagnation/inaction, which is what I was doing.
So take away all this and throw in all my responses to BT and you see that BT's vote on me is smoke and mirrors, but he's dressed it up as something he doesn't think he's wrong about.

You're not making any sense. I'd gladly lynch you right now but that claim was an automatic "ehh no" to most people. Where's the scummy line of thought?
BT has some stuff about NNR and would gladly lynch him but he doesn't want to try for it because of the claim that he thinks is a big part of what makes NNR scummy? This doesn't seem like a townie mindset, especially after you take into account the number of people who expressed dislike of the claim. If BT really thought NNR was scum, he'd make an effort to start the wagon instead of effectively voteparking.

I'd say that he's riding on Conq's case cred but Conq doesn't really have a case either.
Lots of gusto despite the paucity of content.


On tue un homme, on est un assassin. On tue des millions d'hommes, on est un conqu?rant. On les tue tous, on est un dieu.
Every saint has a past and every sinner a future.

Conqueror

  • Here I am, dirty and faceless
  • waiting to heed your instruction
Re: Disgaea Mafia -Day 1-
« Reply #147 on: January 08, 2013, 07:05:44 AM »
*If BT really thought NNR was scum, he'd make an effort to start the wagon instead of effectively voteparking on me, given that even fewer people have expressed interest in lynching me. So him using this reasoning as an excuse not to go for an NNR lynch is disingenuous.


On tue un homme, on est un assassin. On tue des millions d'hommes, on est un conqu?rant. On les tue tous, on est un dieu.
Every saint has a past and every sinner a future.

Conqueror

  • Here I am, dirty and faceless
  • waiting to heed your instruction
Re: Disgaea Mafia -Day 1-
« Reply #148 on: January 08, 2013, 07:10:56 AM »
Definitely unsupport of BT wagon
Why?

Serela's post speaks for itself I think. Seriously Serela your only scumread is a PoE scumread? It's made worse by I SEE WHERE MY SCUMREAD IS COMING FROM WITH HIS VOTE EVEN THOUGH I DISAGREE WITH SOME OTHER STUFF I DONT UNDERSTAND.

Could see myself voting Serela, could def be scum. Leaning town on huhwhat now. BT still scum level over 9000.


On tue un homme, on est un assassin. On tue des millions d'hommes, on est un conqu?rant. On les tue tous, on est un dieu.
Every saint has a past and every sinner a future.

Conqueror

  • Here I am, dirty and faceless
  • waiting to heed your instruction
Re: Disgaea Mafia -Day 1-
« Reply #149 on: January 08, 2013, 07:14:37 AM »
Also, rawr needs to do something, anything, especially given that he likes to lurk as scum.


On tue un homme, on est un assassin. On tue des millions d'hommes, on est un conqu?rant. On les tue tous, on est un dieu.
Every saint has a past and every sinner a future.