Touhou Remix: Game Over Man, Game Over!

[Sodium]

Oh hai.

Confirmed, will make post later.

You replace Xan. Just letting everyone else know

[Sodium]

So I see Xan here has left me in a bit of a pickle. Nothing I'm not used to of course.

I don't really have much to say or add, at least until Jan-san's replacement shows up. There's a huge number of lurkers, or/and people who just joined bandwagons. Nietz has already been covered extensively, and Jan-san is getting replaced(without the replacement being here yet). Alice still hasn't posted an actual post on Day 2 yet(one with content). On a seperate note, Zakeri has been covered well by Kiro.

I do note that Affinity had his vote on Suwako most of the Day, until he dropped it "for now", implying he'll be back. He has said nothing more on Suwako since then, including not commenting at all about Suwako's answer to his question. lolwut?

Not voting yet.

[Serp]

Not voting yet.

So you've pointed out that several cases have been covered.  Do any of those cases look good to you?  The only stance I'm getting from your post is a vague finger of suspicion for Affinity.

Alright, we need an extension to examine these replacements.

##Vote Extension

[FinnKaenbyou]

Obligatory FFFFFFFFFFFFFFF at double replacement.

Would like to see the newcomers comment on the previous cases; until then, ##Extension.

[Affinity]

##Extension

In any case, EX Na2O2, could you point out which question of Suwako's that I didn't answer?  And 'for now' doesn't really imply later; I was satisfied with his case on Nietz and since he's still carrying out the questioning into day two, I don't find him worthy of much concern at the moment.  In general even, anything is 'for now' since they could produce scummy material later.

And obviously, Jan-san should never be allowed to join a mafia game ever again.

##Unvote to see what people have to say.

[Suwako Moriya]

One rousing day of SotN and watching the Dear Zakeri Zachary documentary on MSNBC, I'm ready to get back into this.

##Vote: Extension because two replacements + where did Alice go = yeah.

Time to read the Zachary Zakeri case in-depth, though an initial lookover has me disagreeing with a few of the ideas Kiro brought forth.

Cut by Affinity who mentions the Jan-san sentiment I forgot to add to this post.

[Sodium]

I agree with them, mostly. There are minor things I disagree, but the end result is essentially the same, so I don't think I need I really need to bring them up, and they're minor anyways. The problem is that they're too many good cases/people acting scummy/NOT TALKING.

Well, there is one thing I feel like bringing up. What's with all the "he wasn't behind the Tenshi wagon, so I don't think he's scum" stuff? It isn't a bad thing that they weren't behind the Tenshi lynch, but to say that they feel town just because of that seems to be going too far, especially when they have a large amount of bad actions. Kiro said this on Jan-san, and Roukan on Zakeri.

Also, I agree with Kiro that's it's discouraging to post when there are a large number of players simply not posting.

I'm waiting for Jan-san's replacement, and an Alice post before I vote. I don't think I need to vote Alice to prod him right now, just in case you're wondering. At least, not yet. =V

Eh, seeing as everyone including me wants an extension:
##Extension

Side Note:
Double replacement is indeed FFFFFFFFFF. Mafia on MoTK really needs to cut down on people dropping out. =V

[Nietz]

Obligatory facepalm at two substitutions.
 
As much as feel like RAGE'ing at Jan as a player, for obvious reasons, the fact that he was actually lazy/uncaring instead of actively lurking kinda weakens my point on him. Even so, I'm still very interested in what Kerigis has to say.

##Vote Extension

[Suwako Moriya]

In regards to the Zakeri case:

- I disagree with Kiro's point regarding Zakeri #72. My interpretation of Zakeri's post in question is that he went after Serpentarius for voting Alice for lurking and later saying lurking wasn't a scumtell while maintaining the Alice vote. Zakeri himself never claimed he felt lurking wasn't a scumtell, so his pursuit of Alice for lurking is still valid. He wasn't attacking Serpentarius for voting Alice for lurking, he was attacking Serpentarius for being inconsistent. (To address #124 at the time time, I would guess Zakeri unvoted Serpentarius exactly because Serpentarius unvoted Alice and thus stopped being inconsistent.)

- I get where the accusation of reporting in #99, #104 and #114 are coming from, but I do get an air of "don't lynch Tenshi just because he was being stupid" from the latter two (for whatever that's worth), and he confirms this sentiment in #124.

- One point of Nietz's against Zakeri in particular stands out to me:

I did notice now that you were also keeping clear of Tenshi's case even though acknowledging his scumminess and announcing you would vote him later.

This is pretty blatant misrepresentation, since Zakeri only did those things way down the line after Tenshi clearly demonstrated he had no idea how to handle himself. I would disagree with the idea that he was "keeping clear" of the case when he strongly implied, if not outright stated, that he thought the bandwagon was scummy (at the top of 124).

I can't honestly find Zakeri to be worth a vote. The 99-114 string is irritating as commentary and a distraction, but there's enough wrong with what else has been presented against him for me to think this is a worthy case to pursue. This is not to say that I'm 100% sure he's town, but I believe it's more likely he's town than scum just based on what I've read and what's been presented against him.

The one thing that confuses me about all this is why Zakeri never explained the Serpentarius/Alice thing himself, since multiple other people held the same view as Kiro (Nietz, Carthrat, maybe one or two others I already don't remember).

---

Other stuffs:

As I see it, trying to tip my bandwagon over the edge would've been a win-win situation for Scum Jan.  Either Moonspeak gets lynched anyway and Scum Jan has distanced himself from what he knew would be a mislynch, or else I get lynched instead and then Moonspeak is a shoe-in to lynch today - and I do think that if we hadn't lynched Moonspeak yesterday, then he almost certainly would've ended up as the primary candidate today.

Obviously that's how you see it, since you know your alignment and would say that either way. The rest of us, however, have seen Tenshi flip town and don't know what you are.

Your flip (should it come while Kerigis is still alive) would clearly do a lot to determine how worthy the cushion I gave Jan-san is, but for now I think the uncertainty is enough to place Kerigis slightly below Sodium Peroxide on the scummy list.

Well, I thought the difference was pretty obvious but you seem to claim exactly the opposite.
I don't really see how "those people look bad because of this and that, but Tenshi looks worse *Tenshi vote*", is worse than "Tenshi looks really bad but I won't take part in his wagon and I'll go over there instead *other person vote*"

Mmm. I see where you're coming from with this, so I guess the only thing to do is swing it back to Roukanken, who initially brought up the idea that what you did was bad while not mentioning me. He put forth his reasoning here, which you skipped over for whatever reason (because it was a response to Kiro I guess? That didn't stop me but hey whatever).

You also apparently skipped over Kiro's interest in an explanation from you regarding what was discussed here.

[Nietz]

This is pretty blatant misrepresentation, since Zakeri only did those things way down the line after Tenshi clearly demonstrated he had no idea how to handle himself. I would disagree with the idea that he was "keeping clear" of the case when he strongly implied, if not outright stated, that he thought the bandwagon was scummy (at the top of 124).

And yet he said, in that same post, that Tenshi was "worthy of the day's lynch". What he pretty much outright stated is that he wouldn't take part in Tenshi's wagon until it was resolved, but we should go ahead with it anyway.

My main theory for looking at Day 1 is: If there's one thing scum must've felt differently when facing Tenshi, is that unlike Town, who was pretty much caught by surprise and outraged at how scummy - and how dumb scummy - his actions looked, scum would know all the way that he was simply being dumb, any outrage at his blatant scumminess would have to be faked, and it soon should have been clear that town would end up lynching him without much "help" being needed that way.

You also apparently skipped over Kiro's interest in an explanation from you regarding what was discussed here.

Hum, I thought I had addressed that in an asnwer to Rou. But the point is that if Alice was scum, he would only be working with the future outcome of Tenshi flipping Town. And since Rou and Suwako were already saying that my reason for joining the case on him was weak, he could as well start setting up my mislynch for today.
This remark kind of got blown out of proportion, I'm not assuming that Alice is scum just because of it, but I certainly did want to hear what he would have to say about it.  The fact that he only showed up for #178 and vanished without actually saying anything is disappointing to say the least.

[Suwako Moriya]

He said Tenshi was worthy of the day's lynch if Tenshi didn't get better.

I will concede that if Days So doesn't start shaping up before the end of day 1, he's worthy of the day's lynch and will vote/hammer accordingly

Simple if-then statement.

[Serp]

Obviously that's how you see it, since you know your alignment and would say that either way. The rest of us, however, have seen Tenshi flip town and don't know what you are.

Your flip (should it come while Kerigis is still alive) would clearly do a lot to determine how worthy the cushion I gave Jan-san is, but for now I think the uncertainty is enough to place Kerigis slightly below Sodium Peroxide on the scummy list.

That's all true, but it wasn't your original point.  Your exact words were "the vote for Serpentarius doesn't make sense for Scum Jan."  That would only be true if I were scum as well.  Scum Jan would've had no reason not to vote for Town Serp, and Town Jan would've had no particular reason not to vote for me either way.  But his vote's objectively horrible reasoning makes it look more like a scummy strategic vote than a legitimate decision based on a townie train of thought.  I don't see how his vote against me could actually lessen the suspicion on him.

[Suwako Moriya]

Oh, I suppose that's true.

Stick Kerigis and Sodium Peroxide at the same level, then.

[Nietz]

He said Tenshi was worthy of the day's lynch if Tenshi didn't get better.

Simple if-then statement.

As in "If he doesn't start being smart, then I'll join this scummy bandwagon of yours."?

As I said, scum didn't have to lose any ATP trying to figure out if Tenshi was scum or not, they already knew he was acting like that out of sheer noobness, and therefore would hardly shape up all of a sudden.
But now that you pointed it out, this kind of statement is a great safety net to pre-justify any attitude he would take towards the case.

Also, by my count that's 6 votes for Extension already, can the UNESCO confirm that it was granted?

[Suwako Moriya]

And where does that interpretation suggest that Zakeri said the bandwagon should proceed anyway? Seeing it as such would require presupposing Zakeri was scum, and I don't think there's enough evidence to do such a thing.

I also think it's a bit of a gamble because there did exist the chance that Tenshi would smarten up, requiring Zakeri to follow up on his word and keep opposing the bandwagon. Ultimately that didn't happen, but it would have been very hard to go back on his word if it did. Why bother taking a chance on anything on Day 1?

As best, for a case against Zakeri, it's a null tell, because it's a completely legitimate thing for Town Zakeri to say as well given what he had said up to that point.

[Sodium]

Affinity: Wait, what? I said you asked Suwako a question, but when he answered, you really didn't reply to said answer. I was expecting an "alright" or something seeing as you asked that question after you unvoted Suwako. I would think that a reply to a question asked to someone you just unvoted would be worth noting.

But anyways, I guess I misinterpreted your words. Fair enough.

So, Suwako, what's with the Zakeri defending games? And what level would that be, regarding me and Kerigis/Jan-san's replacement?

Nietz: So you're saying that Zakeri was keeping his options open when he said that? I can see how that would work, but... Suwa-er, Kanako dam Suwako ninja. Uh, yeah. TownZak could've said that as much as ScumZak.

Serp: Anything else?

Hm, where's Jan-san's replacement? =V
Hm, where's Alice? Seriously. =V
Why do I always end up 1 name short when I try remembering everyone who's playing? =V

Unrelated Side Note Question: Suwako, assuming you're not Kilga, are you Edible?

[Suwako Moriya]

The Zakeri case was the one major thing I hadn't commented on yet, so I did. Nietz responded to my post, I responded to his response, etc. I guess talking about a case on someone you don't think is scum qualifies as defending now apparently? Whatever. I'm interested in the discussion hashing out the details of the case so a proper conclusion can be agreed upon.

The level thing concerns this, which can be found on this very page:

Your flip (should it come while Kerigis is still alive) would clearly do a lot to determine how worthy the cushion I gave Jan-san is, but for now I think the uncertainty is enough to place Kerigis slightly below Sodium Peroxide on the scummy list.

I am not Edible.

[WHMZakeri]

##Extention would be nice, since no one was speaking at all last night before I went to sleep and then had my internet cut for a while :V

@Kiro: What exactly about my reply left you wanting more. It does me no good to just say "Well, Zak hasn't really cleared anything up." And then just having look through your post trying to figure out what you're pressing that I haven't tried to explain.

...AtE much? o_o

I feel it's justified. Speaking of which, Hi Sodium.

Firstly the 'Should I let scummy wagons go through' point. It's, in short, a terrible point, because he's basically saying that his opinion is more important than anyone else's even in the face of evidence.

Oh, someone answered my question. "Yes, you should let wagons you think are bad go through because you're always wrong unless the Mod Says so." Okay then.
I'm not trying to be vicious about this point, I'm just still bitter over how we lost the last game.

Alice must be hardcore to have been reading the topic for sixteen hours.

I don't really have much to say or add, at least until Jan-san's replacement shows up.

Why don't you have anything to add until Jan-san shows up? also, You never really stated your stance on anyone.

I do note that Affinity had his vote on Suwako most of the Day, until he dropped it "for now", implying he'll be back. He has said nothing more on Suwako since then, including not commenting at all about Suwako's answer to his question. lolwut?

I don't like it when people hold this point up against others. It implies people should be ignoring what's happened around them and just tunnel on the first person they FoS.

And obviously, Jan-san should never be allowed to join a mafia game ever again.

I'm personally refusing them (Jan-san and Xan) if they in my next game. I'm serious.

I see that main point Neitz is arguing, but it feels like he's trying to spin something that would be natural for me to assume into something that only scum would assume. The stance I held on Tenshi is the result of me trying to understand the reason we lost last game based on my actions last game. Last game, the person I wound up defending I successfully saved from being lynched. That person got replaced (headache indusing) and surviving until Lylo to be lynched. If I had let him be lynched Day one, not only could I have made the counter attack on the scum that voted him much sooner, but it would have been contemplated instead of ignored as WiFoM.

So then what exactly am I suppose to do when I find myself in what amounts to the exact same situation? Yes, I wanted to shout and yell at you all for bandwagoning on evidence that indicates that he is either Idiot town or Idiot Scum, but in the end, there was no indication that Tenshi was either Scum or Town, just that he was an idiot. I still disagree with it in heart, but there were three reasons it was a good enough lynch for day one:

1. It helps remove anti-town elements, such as people who don't know how to play the game, from making it to lylo
2. Scummy bandwagons, according to others, is only scummy if the target flips town, therefore you can't make cases based on bandwagons that don't go through to lynch
3. There was still a Decent chance Tenshi was scum.

I said before that one of the morals of last game was not take stupid things people do and calling it Malicious intent, which is exactly what was happening to Tenshi and a point I was taking to heart.

What you're trying to spin it as is ScumMe trying to semi-clear myself by staying off the bandwagon while enjoying a mislynch in the process. The problem with this line of thought however is that I'm not asking people to clear me because I wasn't targeting Tenshi. Just the opposite, I feel it's suspicious to try and go about it like that, which is why I gave Affinity some hardship for explaining why he wasn't on the bandwagon.

---
Let's see ... Nothing new on Neitz's case, The other big case right now is me, and I don't really see anything forming on Jan-san's case until Kerigis shows up.

I guess talking about a case on someone you don't think is scum qualifies as defending now apparently?

It's been that way since I first attacked Serp last game.

[Kiro]

##Extension just to make sure it gets through.

Ok, I'm a lazy asshole and don't want to think about Mafia tonight (got addicted to Tenhou on a Sunday). I feel like I should give the replacements and Alice time to pipe in first, but I'll have my customary daily post in by Monday noon time.

[?lice Bl?ckb?rn]

##Extension just in case.

Typing up a response, but it might not be up until a couple hours later because I'm basically exhausted right now.

[FinnKaenbyou]

I don't really see how "those people look bad because of this and that, but Tenshi looks worse *Tenshi vote*", is worse than "Tenshi looks really bad but I won't take part in his wagon and I'll go over there instead *other person vote*"

Tenshi was a blatant bandwagon, plain and simple. It irritates me when people give legitimate points against other players and then finish by saying 'but as everyone else has already explained X is really scummy so Vote X'.
And if you're using the latter as a point against Suwako, it really doesn't make much sense since he'd been voting you on a solid point for most of Day 1. He only really decided to move on Tenshi after his last Wall of Terrible here.

Scum Jan would've had no reason not to vote for Town Serp, and Town Jan would've had no particular reason not to vote for me either way.

So because he voted for you he must therefore be scum? And 'Town Jan has no reason to vote for me' is a pretty big assumption.

Oh, someone answered my question. "Yes, you should let wagons you think are bad go through because you're always wrong unless the Mod Says so." Okay then.

That's not the point I'm making here. What I'm saying is that in Umineko you obviously weren't convinced by Sodium's defense, and thus you weren't totally opposed to him being lynched. What you're suggesting is 'SCREW YOUR SUSPECT, GUYS. I AGREE THAT HE'S SCUMMY BUT LOOK AT MY CASE.'

Still no sign of Kerigis. :|

[WHMZakeri]

I didn't doubt that Sodium would flip town. What I doubted was that town even had a fraction of a chance at turning the game around. I voted to end the game and my headache, since the only other vote needed on him would have been coming from scum if not me.

'SCREW YOUR SUSPECT, GUYS. I AGREE THAT HE'S SCUMMY BUT LOOK AT MY CASE.'

So in other words, Town shouldn't be open minded. I somehow doubt that.

The message I'm getting here is that once more than two people agree that someone is acting sort of scummy, the town should then decide that no one besides that person is scum, and that we should just conclude that that person is the day's lynch. I understand that not knowing Sodium's flip is what made my case so bad last game, but it's getting harder to not feel jaded when the message behind why my play was so bad appears to be because Tunnling on a single person is pro-town if more than one person does it.

On a Side Note, Kiro, Alice, just because Xan and Jan-san got replaced DOES NOT MEAN you two get to take their places in activity levels.

[Unesco]

I don't see any confirmation for replacing from Kerigis. This slot is now open to anyone that would like to replace in.

Extension has been granted. I'll sort out the time and do a vote count once I get home.

I'll do this. I owe you all a VC. Let me find a suitable song

[Unesco]

The Tenth "Acoustic?" Vote Count

幽雅に咲かせ 墨染の桜 ～ Border of Life

Mod Note: umu...I think I'll give you something more like a 34 hour extension to be honest...

Roukanken (0)
Affinity (0)
Nietz (3): Roukanken, Zakeri, Suwako Moriya
Suwako Moriya (0)
EX Na2O2 (1): Serpentarius
Kiro (0)
Zakeri (2): Kiro, Nietz
Serpentarius (0)
Alice (0)
Jan-san (0)

Not Voting (4):  Xan, Alice, Jan-san, Affinity

With 10 alive it takes 6 to lynch
Nietz is at L-3

Deadline is in 36.5 hours at 10:00 PM EST, Tuesday, August 11.

[Sodium]

Zakeri: I was going to say some stuff about Jan, but I decided to wait for his replacement. Also, it was more of me waiting for any lurker to post.

The Affinity thing was somewhat of a wording issue, and the fact he asked a question, got an answer, but didn't say anything about the answer.

As for stances, aside from my RAGE at lurkers, I think that of the two major cases right now, the one on Nietz is better because I find that you're doing more hunting then he is, and while I don't think that this is as big as Roukan finds it, you actually seemed to dislike the Tenshi lynch.

Kiro: Oh, come on. -_-

So I look in the topic expecting to see new posts from people who haven't been posting. There was almost none of that. The hell?

##Vote Alice
Please say something. =V

@Mod(s):Wrathie signed up as a replacement in the sign-up topic...

[Nietz]

1. It helps remove anti-town elements, such as people who don't know how to play the game, from making it to lylo
2. Scummy bandwagons, according to others, is only scummy if the target flips town, therefore you can't make cases based on bandwagons that don't go through to lynch
3. There was still a Decent chance Tenshi was scum.

Yes, those are plausible. The problem I have is that they only come in hindsight. At that point that stance is basically of agreeing that Tenshi looks bad, but letting town decide if it's okay to lynch him or not. I still maintain that that attitude makes more sense from the point of view of scum.

Seriously, how long can Alice put off actually posting by saying he's reading and then vanishing?
Waiting for Alice and eigen-Jan to post before I have more to say. 

@Mod(s):Wrathie signed up as a replacement in the sign-up topic...

Yeah, wrathie coming in now will help a lot... :V 

[Kiro]

Kiro: Oh, come on. -_-

Hey now, part of this is because we need all the people who haven't put forward anything in Day 2 to do so and I prefer more raw opinions. If we provide all the talking points for them, they're more likely to go along with what's best from their viewpoint and I find that suspicious. That's also why I got a funny feeling about Suwako in regards to the Tenshi train on Day 1.

I already put forward my cases, and I'll re-evaluate everything now and have a better post up within 3 hours. The likelihood that despite my waiting around for the last 2 days, that I'll have something else up before Alice whom was my second choice in my last wall is very disappointing.

[Serp]

So because he voted for you he must therefore be scum? And 'Town Jan has no reason to vote for me' is a pretty big assumption.

No, you misread me.  My words were "Town Jan has no reason not to vote for me."  In that post, since Suwako had claimed that Jan going after me would only look bad after my flip, I was going over the four possible scum/town alignment combinations for myself and Jan from an outside perspective.  I agreed that the vote would not make sense if both of us were scum, but if Jan's scum and I'm not, then it would make perfect sense.  And if Jan was Town, then I suppose he could've believed the case on me was legit regardless of my alignment, but since his reasoning in that post was so bad, it doesn't look like he had actually gone through any logical train of thought to determine that I looked scummy - and that means that the vote was more likely to be a scummy strategic move than an honest conclusion.

[Kiro]

To review: Zakeri's vote on Alice in #55 still looks like a convenient placeholder vote to me as he wasn't sure "where to take my vote to lynch now." I'm not saying that he wants to vote Alice to lynch, but rather, he's not ready to commit to anything early on which is pretty much just like Nietz at the time. Just a basic comparison. The distraction about coaching was not needed, simple as that. To point out Zakeri's #156 in Day 2 again,

Does this mean you think Alice is scummy solely because he said you were scummy after the day one Lynch was decided? This point seems out of place to me, because I could only see it this way if I already thought Alice was Scum.

Alice made an accusation of Nietz based on his supposed Scum meta and before Tenshi flipped. Nietz regardless of his alignment, has every right to be suspicious of a comment like that. I think that was a fair point for Nietz to make.

For your #166

And I haven't been ignoring Serp, but most of my case on him as it stands would sound too much like "I THINK ALICE AND JAN-SAN ARE TOWN FOR NO REASON, DIE!" So I would rather focus on people who targeted those that have actually flipped.

Should note that Serp did vote Tenshi in the end. So in that sense, you are ignoring him because his vote did help to secure the lynch. Why do the scum have to be amongst Nietz and the people before him? Also, Nietz "giving up the window to have his opinion on the Alice bandwagon" is huh? There wasn't enough information at the time so I don't see how that point should go against him because almost nobody really had an opinion on Alice before he posted and then was largely ignored.

---

Actually, I suddenly realized that Roukan was in part responsible for the back and forth between Zakeri because he kept questioning each of Zakeri's individual points and while critical of Tenshi and speculated on the Tenshi/Serp pair, actually voted Serp first before voting Tenshi near the end of the Day. Suddenly warrants interest to me. I'm not explicitly saying they're a scumpair, but it should be mentioned that Roukan also spent more time on this issue than was necessary. Rou is also slightly apologetic of unvoting Serp in #132 which he didn't have to be. He then still goes into more back and forth with Zakeri before voting Tenshi.

The case on Alice is still the same just because there hasn't been anything else he's said in Day 2. As I stated a few hours ago, I was hoping Alice would bring his Day 2 opinions forward, but he hasn't.

Still see Jan-san the same way. Xan was lazy, Sodium is also not putting too much forward yet, but I assume he's also waiting for Kerigis and Alice. Sodium: my feeling on Jan-san is gut. The point at the end of each day is to get it right and all Townies take that risk when they make a vote. Sometimes, there's just no empirical evidence to support it.

I'm running out of time and the Nietz and Rou interaction is really confusing with all those links. Even I don't do a point by point summary of stuff before. It deserves more attention, but I gotta leave now. I've stopped at #188, but I gave some more points about the Zakeri case. Maybe I'll get another post in 5 hours.

[Unesco]

Kerigis replaces Jan-san. Effective immediately. Jam on!