Touhou Remix: Game Over Man, Game Over!

[Unesco]

The Eighth "Start of Day 2" Vote Count

The Ultimate Grilled Meat Restaurant! Orin's Hell Eatery!

Roukanken (0)
Affinity (0)
Nietz (0)
Suwako Moriya (0)
Xan (0)
Kiro (0)
Zakeri (0)
Serpentarius (0)
Alice (0)
Jan-san (0)

Not Voting (10): Roukanken, Affinity, Nietz, Suwako Moriya, Xan, Kiro, Zakeri, Serpentarius, Alice, Jan-san

With 10 alive it takes 6 to lynch

Deadline is in 72 hours at 1:00 PM EST, Monday, August 10.

[FinnKaenbyou]

So, we don't get flips on made-up roles?

Anywho, in terms of players flaring up in wake of the Tenshi flip I'm really awkward of Nietz. In particular I'm not fond of how until then he had more or less no opinion, then jumps on Tenshi stating exactly what everyone else has already said about him. Most of his posts afterwards are mostly defensive (here, here and here) with the only sign of an opinion being in the last one with 'Zak actually didn't say anything useful'. Hell, in that post he even admits 'Rou has said everything about Tenshi' and doesn't even BOTHER looking for any new points.

##Vote: Nietz

In second place in terms of scumminess to me is probably Xan/Jan-san (wow, it rhymes~!). Xan is guilty of jumping on the Tenshi lynch with amazing fervor here and then proceeding to produce pretty much nothing for the remainder of the day, but a semi-meta read of him makes me sort of reluctant to make him my primary lynch. Jan-san isn't much better, saying 'Tenshi is trying too hard to act new' and then 'Tenshi is obviously new, and Serp looks bad based on Too Townie'. Except that Too Townie is a well known FALLACY. Again, the fact that it's Jan makes me uncertain of actually lynching him first and foremost, because compared to him Nietz should really know better than to stay neutral so far into Day 1.

[Nietz]

So you think I'm suspicious for being half-assed regarding Tenshi, and Xan for being too serious about it? How does that work?
You, for that matter, were quite prolific in finding reasons to lynch Tenshi here, and as you pointed out, I even admitted there wasn't anything new I could point.

Except that Too Townie is a well known FALLACY.

A "fallacy" that won him last game, which is why I was suspicious of his Do The Right Townie Thing on Day 1 in the first place.

Affinity and Jan-san kept a cautious distance of the Tenshi wagon, both of them basically suggested it was not a good idea, and they both preemptively attacked Xan and Serp for going after him. Affinity had a little more in way of presence and opinion, though mostly centered on people attacking Tenshi.

I was more suspicious of Carthrat and Zakeri overnight, but I was obviously wrong about the former, and my main point against Zakeri was that he voted me here despite just stating a bigger list of suspicions against Carth. 

Nietz's inability to hold a clear, concise opinion is worrying, especially considering how scum-Nietz works (see GWU, etc). Definetly someone to keep a close eye on during D2 onwards.

This was weird considering that Tenshi's lynch was almost a certainty by that point, and had he flipped scum I would be considerably less suspicious for going after him when I did. This whole comment seems based on the notion that he would flip town.

[FinnKaenbyou]

So you think I'm suspicious for being half-assed regarding Tenshi, and Xan for being too serious about it? How does that work?

Xan was being half-assed too - he made one post saying 'Tenshi is really really terrible' and the best he gave in terms of reasoning later was 'these last posts have confirmed my suspicions'.

You, for that matter, were quite prolific in finding reasons to lynch Tenshi here, and as you pointed out, I even admitted there wasn't anything new I could point.

So there was nothing worth saying about anyone else at all anywhere? My point was that most of your posts consisted of defending your opinion and there was a severe lack of actual hunting.

So you think I'm suspicious for being half-assed regarding Tenshi, and Xan for being too serious about it? How does that work?
You, for that matter, were quite prolific in finding reasons to lynch Tenshi here, and as you pointed out, I even admitted there wasn't anything new I could point.

Except that Too Townie is a well known FALLACY.

A "fallacy" that won him last game, which is why I was suspicious of his Do The Right Townie Thing on Day 1 in the first place.

Affinity and Jan-san kept a cautious distance of the Tenshi wagon, both of them basically suggested it was not a good idea, and they both preemptively attacked Xan and Serp for going after him. Affinity had a little more in way of presence and opinion, though mostly centered on people attacking Tenshi.

I was more suspicious of Carthrat and Zakeri overnight, but I was obviously wrong about the former, and my main point against Zakeri was that he voted me here despite just stating a bigger list of suspicions against Carth. 

This was weird considering that Tenshi's lynch was almost a certainty by that point, and had he flipped scum I would be considerably less suspicious for going after him when I did. This whole comment seems based on the notion that he would flip town.

You were 4th on the wagon, so...yeah. Plus you're assuming that bussing is impossible if he HAD flipped scum.

[Nietz]

Xan was being half-assed too - he made one post saying 'Tenshi is really really terrible' and the best he gave in terms of reasoning later was 'these last posts have confirmed my suspicions'.

So by "with amazing fervor" you actually meant "half-assedly"?

So there was nothing worth saying about anyone else at all anywhere? My point was that most of your posts consisted of defending your opinion and there was a severe lack of actual hunting.

There was, and I did say everything relevant I thought about. Most of my defending was actually having to repeat answers to the same repeated accusations.
 

You were 4th on the wagon, so...yeah. Plus you're assuming that bussing is impossible if he HAD flipped scum.

It would be quite silly add momentum to his wagon with what you claim was weak reasoning, when the objective of bussing is making it look as  real as possible.

[Affinity]

Through the night I was most suspcious of Xan and Jan-san, especially the earlier due to the fact that he did not respond to anything I said here, and general tunnel-vision.  Jan-san also does not have much in the way opinion even on Tenshi or Serp; he relies on 'too townie' arguments which don't hold up to scrutiny at all, and pretty much endorses any bandwagon that comes his way.

I didn't endorse the Tenshi vote yesterday on the account that he did put in some effort at critical thinking as Serp has raised; he seemed more genuine than people like Xan and Jan-san who jumped for very bad reasons. 

Also Rou, what do you think of Serp now?

##Vote: Xan since he commented on far les than Jan-san.

[WHMZakeri]

where did everyone go?

Still holding my Case over neitz for right now, so ##Vote neitz

I was more suspicious of Carthrat and Zakeri overnight, but I was obviously wrong about the former, and my main point against Zakeri was that he voted me here despite just stating a bigger list of suspicions against Carth. 

Would you mind clearly defining your case on me then?

Also, I'm tempted to offer you a Bran Muffin for the comment on me having a bigger list of suspicions on Carth. I commented at the end of reviewing his posts that I needed more information on him before I could decide if he was acting with scummy intentions or not. The key difference between Carthrat and You & Xan was that He had actually provided opinions and had analysis in his votes before Badwagoning Days So.

You could have made the Argument that I should have Voted Xan, but really voting for either of you would be a flip of the same coin.

This was weird considering that Tenshi's lynch was almost a certainty by that point, and had he flipped scum I would be considerably less suspicious for going after him when I did. This whole comment seems based on the notion that he would flip town.

Vote for a Vote
FoS for a FoS

Does this mean you think Alice is scummy solely because he said you were scummy after the day one Lynch was decided? This point seems out of place to me, because I could only see it this way if I already thought Alice was Scum.

So by "with amazing fervor" you actually meant "half-assedly"?

Xan is guilty of jumping on the Tenshi lynch with amazing fervor here and then proceeding to produce pretty much nothing for the remainder of the day,

You know what? Here. Take a Bran Muffin anyway.

I don't disagree with anything in Affinity's post except this:

I didn't endorse the Tenshi vote yesterday on the account that he did put in some effort at critical thinking as Serp has raised; he seemed more genuine than people like Xan and Jan-san who jumped for very bad reasons.

I hope you realize this means nothing unless you said it before Days So's Flip.

[Maid Xan~]

*Sigh*, And if I'd had my way I wouldn't have even made that said half-assed post. Unesco (both halves) pressured me into posting while I was chatting on IRC, even though I had nothing to say, because I personally was and still am not understanding the whole coaching business, and I haven't noticed anything else worth discussing. I was confident in my vote for Tenshi. Confidence that was misplaced, apparently. Since Affinity is complaining about me not answering his ealier question, my Carthrat vote was a prod. It was pretty clearly a prod. Once he actually responded and started saying something of relative value, I had no reason to keep my vote on him. Not to mention my vote was never actually ON him because I forgot to unvote Jan-san >_<. Tenshi seemed like a more concrete case than Carthrat, since Tenshi's behavior was pretty anti-town.

At the moment, I'm not sure where to place my vote, so I'm not going to yet.

[FinnKaenbyou]

So by "with amazing fervor" you actually meant "half-assedly"?

He made one post with said fervor. One post <> a case.

There was, and I did say everything relevant I thought about. Most of my defending was actually having to repeat answers to the same repeated accusations.

Declares general suspicion of Serp and calls him on WIFOM, then proceeds to not vote.
Serious discussion is a nulltell.
Too serious discussion, Serp trying too hard to be Town...but Vote Tenshi because he's worse.
Rage at Suwako for pointing out his lack of an opinion on Serp.
ADMITS that he didn't have an opinion early on, tries to argue that there was nothing worth talking about.
Claims that people are suggesting he make an opinion up because obviously he can't thinkfor himself. Makes a comment on Zakeri not actually producing much, but since Zak just voted him this is most likely reactionary.
 

It would be quite silly add momentum to his wagon with what you claim was weak reasoning, when the objective of bussing is making it look as  real as possible.

WIFOM.

Also Rou, what do you think of Serp now?

Most of my suspicions were of how he and Tenshi so narrowly avoided each other, but given that they can't be buddies he doesn't seem so bad anymore.

*Sigh*, And if I'd had my way I wouldn't have even made that said half-assed post. Unesco (both halves) pressured me into posting while I was chatting on IRC, even though I had nothing to say, because I personally was and still am not understanding the whole coaching business, and I haven't noticed anything else worth discussing. I was confident in my vote for Tenshi. Confidence that was misplaced, apparently. Since Affinity is complaining about me not answering his ealier question, my Carthrat vote was a prod. It was pretty clearly a prod. Once he actually responded and started saying something of relative value, I had no reason to keep my vote on him. Not to mention my vote was never actually ON him because I forgot to unvote Jan-san >_<. Tenshi seemed like a more concrete case than Carthrat, since Tenshi's behavior was pretty anti-town.

At the moment, I'm not sure where to place my vote, so I'm not going to yet.

Congrats on giving no scumhunting material AT ALL. T_T

[Suwako Moriya]

Argh, thinking about Tenshi's flip is making me second-guess myself because all of the votes came after that one really stupid post which makes scum bandwagoners harder to pick out from townie scumhunting.

This actually makes me feel slightly better about Nietz when combined with the apparent effort put into his first post of today, though I notice that he still hasn't dropped a serious vote on anyone that wasn't post-self-destruction Tenshi, which works to nullify the small good feeling.

...And at the end of said post he's trying to use his placement on the wagon to argue that scumTenshi would have given him townie cred? What? No. In retrospect Tenshi was a lost cause the instant he admitted he forgot why he voted for Alice and hypothetically-fellow scum voting there is very plausible. Bad logic is bad. ##Vote: Nietz

As for the other two names being thrown around, I don't like Xan's latest whole-bunch-of-nothing post and I don't like the way Jan has been ostensibly useless so I'll probably look more into them later. Everyone else...I get an odd vibe fom Roukanken's first Day 2 post but a resulting case from that would depend on Nietz flipping town and well uh yeah. No one else stands out to me.

[Kiro]

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CAUTION! CAUTION!
Headbanging Raven Sign [Wall of Radioactive Text]
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After a long reread and some rethinking, the person I'm finding the most likely to be scum right now is Zakeri. You left your vote on Alice when it looked like you would pursue Serp; I don't see why given the reasons you put forward, why you felt an Alice prod was still more prudent than being firm about Serpentarius. Then in #72:

Serp Seems to think so. And I at least checked to see if Alice was lurking before voting for him.

Here, you even admit that Alice's Lurking is not a scumtell. Basically, the only point you're holding Against Alice Effectively is that you believe Alice came on, saw the vote against Me, thought it was serious even though you're the only one who did think it could be serious, and choose not to post, risking being called out on not taking part of the RVS so that you would be less likely to call her out on ignoring Days So's random vote.

What is this I don't even?

These 2 in the same post look hypocritical to me. You prod/vote Alice for lurking and then fault Serp for what is essentially Serp's belief that Alice was lurking.

Your #99, #104, and #114 is pretty heavy commentating and very little scumhunting. During all this, you actually say very little about Tenshi's innocence or guilt despite going off about people coaching him. In #114:

This. Seriously. This is actually part of my reasoning for voting for Serp - The fact that he seems to think he can get away with voting for anyone just by acting like he thinks it's the best possible vote he can make under the circumstances.

I never got the impression Serp thought like how you said above. And everyone who votes usually thinks it's the best possible vote they can make under the circumstances. I don't get what you're trying to insinuate with the above statement. You then unvote Serp in #124... what for? Because you're going to generate cases on other people? I don't see Serp's case being lessened with anything in that period unless you count Serp unvoting Alice and voting Tenshi. There's more discussion that's not really scumhunting before you get onto points about Nietz and Carthrat. And frankly, it's mostly summary and your main point isn't much: Nietz isn't providing opinions. How did that overshadow your suspicions on Serp, to the point that you don't mention Serp at all before Tenshi's flip and afterwards going into Day 2?

Neitz:

Wait, you are seriously saying I should've made stuff up just because it was "excusable"? I guess that would be fine if I was scum, but not if I'm trying to actually assess the cases properly.

Except how are we suppose to tell if you're assessing cases properly if all you say is "Null Tell" In regards to a single case for two posts? Especially considering you didn't even comment on the other case that was happening at the same time until after it had been resolved!

I don't recall any case being resolved... what got resolved Zakeri? I find this statement, or at least the spirit of this statement, to be pretty bad. Bandwagons do not necessarily fail because the case died, sometimes they slow down because other cases pick up. Looks like you're trying to set him up.

Summary: Your pressing on Serp is highly inconsistent with your vote pattern and some of your arguments and the unvote and switch to Nietz feels really unnatural. There's a long discussion about Tenshi, but has more to do with what to do about those coaching Tenshi rather than talk about whether he's Scum or not. It was surprisingly continuous to the point of it being a distraction as it did nothing to influence the actual case on Tenshi as if it was a foregone conclusion. I feel it's just Scum talking about nothing and not really pursuing anything of worth. And your ignoring Serp from the end of Day 1 going into Day 2 is sticking out.

-----
Onwards to other cases. Regarding Alice: I noticed you vote Jan-san in #71 for the standard reasons. But what I think stands out to me the most is your #87 when you question what Tenshi was doing and make no comment about Jan-san's post above yours including his unvote. For someone who was unhappy about Jan-san, you are suddenly quite single-minded in your pursuit of Tenshi. That single-mindedness gives me the impression of scummy intent, that you're just itching to vote Tenshi, but also don't want to jump on too quickly. And to reiterate my point from before, you justify your vote saying "nobody is this scummy, but I remembered about ras255" is rather selective thinking. But we were wrong about Nuclear Fusion last game and we're wrong about Tenshi this game. Your evidence there is faulty. I think you were trying too hard to look ok while voting Tenshi so I find your vote on his bandwagon the most telling. And then at the end, you just state you're going to go after Jan-san again. See below about why I'm wary of that.

I can fault Jan-san for all the reasons everyone else is doing, but you know what, I'm not feeling it's the right lynch. The waffling is anti-Townie, but the one theme he's been consistent on is he thought Tenshi was Townie. If you're saying he's been bandwagon hopping, he actually has not been on the one bandwagon we know to be incorrect so far. The Serpentarius vote is kinda bad, but by examining his reason, I'm seeing Jan-san as someone not sure of stuff, but not changing his story to make himself look more or less Townie. His actions might look scummy, but I'm not sensing the intent. In other words, he feels honest and trying not to be a distraction which is a good sign to me. Obviously, he does need to be more firm with his cases, but if I feel he maintains this vibe I have of him, I'm not going to vote him.

Suwako and Affinity are both interesting for being bystanders to both Tenshi and Serp. In other words, I don't have a read on them which is troubling and I feel they need to be vetted more. Affinity does seem to comment a bit more about Tenshi though and his case on Xan in #109 is original yet not bad. Suwako, however is really reserved and defers most of his opinions to what people before him said once the Tenshi bandwagon got going. This can't continue. Also on reread, I didn't necessarily like his case on Roukan on a point that didn't look like it would go far and the case on Nietz feels a little half hearted for some reason.

I'm not sure how to judge Rou; he would have been pretty high on my suspicion list if Tenshi flipped Scum, but now he's kinda neutral. Xan and Serp are also feeling neutral and I'd like to see their Day 2 cases to re-evaluate both of them. Xan's lack of one is meh, but I'm not feeling it is effective scumhunting to just directly target the ones that don't have a case. It's a lazy way of Scumhunting, and in some cases, too easy for Scum to misdirect the Townies into a mislynch. Xan is not at the threshold yet of being explicitly scummy for his own actions imo.

Nietz never really committed to a firm opinion on Serp, but there is an actual opinion there even if it's borderline on the fence. And given how I've sorta lowered my priority on Serp, I'm willing to let him pass on that as the ambiguity Nietz had is sorta understandable. But mainly, I like his hunches on Zakeri in #103 and #135 for pretty much the main reasons in the above case on Zakeri. So I disagree about him not contributing at least. And his point on Alice in #152 is interesting. Because Alice claims Nietz can't hold a clear and concise opinion which is incorrect because he had one on Tenshi. So I think his suspicion on Alice has some foundation. His not actually bringing the case on Zakeri or Alice first with a vote at the start of Day 2 is a little troublesome, but he technically had those thoughts before me. Could be Nietz bussing, but if I had to pick between Zakeri and Nietz, I'm voting Zakeri.

Zakeri and Alice are my top two choices at the moment. Suwako and Xan I'm eyeing a bit more as well. Rou: if you think Nietz was not looking for new points about Tenshi, I would say Suwako is actually a worse offender who let others dictate the discussion about Tenshi.

##Vote Zakeri

Cut by Suwako: Can you point out where Nietz is arguing ScumTenshi would give Nietz Townie cred?

[Suwako Moriya]

Sure.

Nietz's inability to hold a clear, concise opinion is worrying, especially considering how scum-Nietz works (see GWU, etc). Definetly someone to keep a close eye on during D2 onwards.

This was weird considering that Tenshi's lynch was almost a certainty by that point, and had he flipped scum I would be considerably less suspicious for going after him when I did. This whole comment seems based on the notion that he would flip town.

Bolding mine.

[Suwako Moriya]

Though I guess that doesn't say "townie cred" so much as "not look as bad". I probably parsed the latter to the former in my head when writing the post.

I still disagree with that logic, though, regardless of which interpretation one takes.

[Kiro]

Hrm, I see. Not a good idea for him to make that assumption. We'll see what Nietz has to say about that.

[Suwako Moriya]

Wanted to get this before I leave.

Rou: if you think Nietz was not looking for new points about Tenshi, I would say Suwako is actually a worse offender who let others dictate the discussion about Tenshi.

The difference is that Nietz voted for Tenshi while I didn't (at least not until the hammer). Roukanken is going after Nietz for not bringing anything new to the table about Tenshi and then voting him anyway. I didn't bring anything new to the table about Tenshi either, sure, but that was because I felt my vote was better served elsewhere at the time. Serpentarius did something similar with his vote for Jan-san.

[Serp]

Alright, nothing about Moonspeak's and Carthrat's flips have made me think any more highly about Jan-san.  Of all the players, I think he's given the fewest real opinions, and none of those have been satisfying.  He keeps coming back to the too-townie point against me, which is trash in itself, and hasn't pushed a single original case yet.  Basically, textbook bandwagon hopper syndrome.

As I see it, Nietz might as well have been active lurking for the first half of the first day.  Too much defending himself and not enough scumhunting.  His eventual vote on Moonspeak was understandable, but it's the only case he ended up voting for, and he was the fourth one on that wagon.  Today, he raises a decent point against Alice, but hasn't put down a vote, so I'm not sure whether he intends it as a case or what.

Xan's votes against Carthrat and Moonspeak were perfectly fine, in my opinion, though I wish he had posted more often.  What isn't fine is the way he disavows that Carthrat vote and blames it on the mod.  >_>  The complete lack of an opening Day 2 opinion is bad here too.

At the beginning of the day, I thought that Jan-san's conduct was the worst, but Xan and Nietz have both kind of blown off attempts to get them to actually commit to an opinion since then, while Jan-san hasn't appeared yet.  When he shows up, I'll take a look at his post and make what I can of it.  Until then, Xan seems to be in more dire need of a prod to do something today.

##Vote Xan

As for the other cases brought up by Kiro's post, during my re-read last night I found Zakeri's unvote of me a little strange too, but ultimately decided that it was consistent with his earlier statements.  I'll let him defend himself, but he still isn't really on my scummy list.  Pretty much the same goes for Alice.  I think that a lack of opinions is the biggest scumtell, even aside from the fact that it deprives the town of information.  The big difference between scum and town is that town are looking for scum, while scum are just pretending to look for scum.

[WHMZakeri]

Wall of Text on how Zakeri is Obvscum.

wat

Okay, one thing you should know is that I consider Active Lurking different from Inactive Lurking. Basically, When I voted Alice, My gut reaction was to vote Serp for the ObvBad prod on Alice. I noted that he said he had checked the timestamps, so I decided to check them myself to see if Serp had more of a point. Coincidentally, There was evidence Alice had been on earlier, as I noting in post 55. Afterwords, When I learned Serp had not bothered to Check if Alice even had the chance to respond to Days So's vote, I felt that he was giving equal punishment to inactivity as lurking, which added onto the "Votes for a bad, wifomy reason" point. I was faulting Serp for basically voting with no evidence other than semi-baseless assumptions.

As for the Comments on Coaching, I was legitimately PO'ed about the bandwagon on Days So by the time it came around in full. Last Game, one of the morals of the story was to stop lynching people just because they don't know how to play the game. The first thing we do this game? Lynch someone because he doesn't know how to play the game. I didn't make any guesses on his alignment because for all his posts were worth worth it was a crapshoot.

just a side note rereading my posts. I need to stop using so many damn commas.

I never got the impression Serp thought like how you said above. And everyone who votes usually thinks it's the best possible vote they can make under the circumstances. I don't get what you're trying to insinuate with the above statement.

The thing is I didn't really get how Serp thought his vote was the best after progressing through the day. It was for a half decent point that was backed up with assumptions. It felt to me that he was keeping to his vote because he knew townies usually stick with their vote because they think it's the best. Admittedly, Serp dropping his vote shouldn't have warranted an immediate drop of my vote, but I felt satisfied enough to take a look at some of the people on Days So's Bandwagon.

And I haven't been ignoring Serp, but most of my case on him as it stands would sound too much like "I THINK ALICE AND JAN-SAN ARE TOWN FOR NO REASON, DIE!" So I would rather focus on people who targeted those that have actually flipped.

now, on to our regularly schedualed broadcast:
---

I don't recall any case being resolved... what got resolved Zakeri? I find this statement, or at least the spirit of this statement, to be pretty bad. Bandwagons do not necessarily fail because the case died, sometimes they slow down because other cases pick up. Looks like you're trying to set him up.

Case on Alice Starts gaining more votes
62 - even more votes.
66 - Carthrat announces suspicion of me
70 - First Unvote of Alice
71 - Alice Posts
72 - Second unvote of Alice
78 - Carthrat says Jan-san is suspicious for the same reason as me
86 - More unvoting of Alice for not lurking anymore, which is the only point that was held against him.
Post 103 After the only point against Alice has been defeated, and everyone that voted for Alice has unvoted, Neitz Parrots Carthrat's opinion on the Alice bandwagon.
Bonus points: 65, right before Carthrat's post, Neitz makes a post avoiding commenting on the Alice Bandwagon even though there were four votes on it.

Neitz Had and gave up the window to have his opinion on the Alice Bandwagon Matter, which reduces his valid opinion status to "Nulltell" and "Hey, Free bandwagon." Letting Neitz go for commenting on the Alice bandwagon when he did would be like claiming Affinity is obvtown because he said he was not feeling the Day one lynchwagon on day two.

Unesco (both halves) pressured me into posting while I was chatting on IRC, even though I had nothing to say, because I personally was and still am not understanding the whole coaching business, and I haven't noticed anything else worth discussing.

Bolded for Emphasis.

Is it really that hard to find something to talk about in this game? Is Scum hunting really such a complicated skill that even given a day's worth of free time you can't find the time to comment on one or two other things that are currently happening?

No, Xan, I mean it. Why is this so hard for you? I could kill you right now. May Edward Cullens find you Sexually attractive.

Both you and Neitz need to start scumhunting NOW if you think anything of self-preservation.

[WHMZakeri]

Edit: Bad tag. The visible [/quote] needs to be a [/url]

Like that?

[Affinity]

@Zakeri:

I hope you realize this means nothing unless you said it before Days So's Flip.

This is true; it is indeed justification after the fact, but it's my reason for not finding Tenshi suspicious yesterday.

---

I'm not finding Zakeri as scummy as people make him out to be, he has decent opinions, and his sudden unvote of Serp is partially justiable since he sort of dropped his vote on Alice and proceeded onto Nietz after that for alright reasons as substantial as the last (e.g Serp's parking of vote).  I don't really like how he viewed Serp in the quote mentioned by Kiro, his occasionally bad logic (I don't agree with his obvtown comparison thing), and as well as his offside discussions which were mere distractions, but his actions have been better than what Nietz, Jan-san, and Xan have been producing so far.

Would like Nietz to drop a vote.  As well as Xan in the near future.  I would also like the latter to give opinions on everyone who isn't Tenshi and Carthrat.  And obviously, there are things of issue to discuss; Mafia is not the spectator sport you are making it out to be.

[Unesco]

The Ninth "バカ!" Vote Count

Cirno's Perfect Maths Class

Roukanken (0)
Affinity (0)
Nietz (3): Roukanken, Zakeri, Suwako Moriya
Suwako Moriya (0)
Xan (2): Affinity, Serpentarius
Kiro (0)
Zakeri (1): Kiro
Serpentarius (0)
Alice (0)
Jan-san (0)

Not Voting (4): Nietz, Xan, Alice, Jan-san

With 10 alive it takes 6 to lynch
Nietz is at L-3

Deadline is in 67.5 hours at 1:00 PM EST, Monday, August 10.

If you haven't posted since the start of the day, you will get officially prodded very soon.



Hey, awesome, I didn't even know what song that was but now I do. Yay lossless torrent and youtube fusion!

[Nietz]

Would you mind clearly defining your case on me then?

The same it was yesterday, you made a large post that was a basically arguing about the relevance of player coaching, summarizing other's posts, and then cast a vote on me what clearly looks like an afterthought.
As I mentioned, I thought there could be a connection with Carth, but that doesn't seem the case. I did notice now that you were also keeping clear of Tenshi's case even though acknowledging his scumminess and announcing you would vote him later.

There was, and I did say everything relevant I thought about. Most of my defending was actually having to repeat answers to the same repeated accusations.

Declares general suspicion of Serp and calls him on WIFOM, then proceeds to not vote.
Serious discussion is a nulltell.
Too serious discussion, Serp trying too hard to be Town...but Vote Tenshi because he's worse.
Rage at Suwako for pointing out his lack of an opinion on Serp.
ADMITS that he didn't have an opinion early on, tries to argue that there was nothing worth talking about.
Claims that people are suggesting he make an opinion up because obviously he can't thinkfor himself. Makes a comment on Zakeri not actually producing much, but since Zak just voted him this is most likely reactionary.

Yes, that's exactly an example of what I was saying. You just keep making post lists and repeating the same points, which are based solely on misinterpretations of what I say. I don't really know how to interpret this, as misguidance or malice. I'm leaning slightly to the former right now, mostly because this course of action is typical of Rou.
 

WIFOM.

It would be, if Tenshi had flipped scum. Reading what Alice said, I couldn't help feeling that he expected him not to flip scum already. 

The difference is that Nietz voted for Tenshi while I didn't (at least not until the hammer). Roukanken is going after Nietz for not bringing anything new to the table about Tenshi and then voting him anyway. I didn't bring anything new to the table about Tenshi either, sure, but that was because I felt my vote was better served elsewhere at the time. Serpentarius did something similar with his vote for Jan-san.

How's keeping your vote away from the Tenshi wagon until it resolves itself and then casting a wholly unnecessary hammer a better thing?

I don't feel good about Jan for his lack of presence on Day 1 and absolute absence today. But since he does have the meta of being an absent player, I'm not inclined to voting him before he even says something.

All in all, Zakeri is the most solid suspicion I have so far.
##Vote Zakeri

[FinnKaenbyou]

Rou: if you think Nietz was not looking for new points about Tenshi, I would say Suwako is actually a worse offender who let others dictate the discussion about Tenshi.

At least Suwako presented a case on Nietz, and gave plenty of opinions on other players. My main gripe with Nietz is that he did so little hunting and spent most of the day defending his lack of said hunting.

Really not sure where I stand in terms of Zakeri at the moment. I'll have to reread him when I find the time.

No, Xan, I mean it. Why is this so hard for you? I could kill you right now. May Edward Cullens find you Sexually attractive.

...AtE much? o_o

Nietz ninja:

You just keep making post lists and repeating the same points, which are based solely on misinterpretations of what I say.

That's a very general accusation. And I'm repeating the same points because you're doing the same things over and over again.
And still, you're missing the main point of the accusation - all you're doing is defending yourself. You are NOT being pro-town and scumhunting.

It would be, if Tenshi had flipped scum.

How does Tenshi being Town in any way immediately put you above suspicion? People still seem pretty suspicious of you, after all, so I don't understand how Alice's point assumes anything. And why Alice in particular, when other people pointed out your lack of an opinion around the same time?

[Suwako Moriya]

Today's been a tiring day. I'll get through Xan and Jan-san now since I promised to look at them and then review the Zakeri case when I have a little bit more energy.

Xan did little of worth yesterday, voting Carthrat for active lurking (didn't really see this) and then hopping onto Tenshi. Today's contributions have been even less. He did talk about some other things in the Cartrat vote post, but it's not enough contribution for my tastes (and I would outright disagree with his assessment that Nietz had given more substances that Carthrat at that point). Not a fan at all.

I am torn on Jan-san, however, mostly because the vote for Serpentarius doesn't make a whole lot of sense for Scum Jan. Rather than pushing a now-known human (and an easy target) to the obvious forefront, he voted for a currently-unknown who was the only mathematical chance for Tenshi to avoid a lynch. Everything else he's "done" - active lurking, the Alice jumps, even the stated reasons for the Serpentarius vote were bizarre - points to scum, but the Serpentarius vote sticking point is holding me off from labeling him scum. His next post will go a long way to determining what I think about him (and I would like it soon).

How's keeping your vote away from the Tenshi wagon until it resolves itself and then casting a wholly unnecessary hammer a better thing?

The quality difference between "Tenshi looks really bad *Tenshi vote*" and "Tenshi looks really bad but here's something I noticed about someone else as well *other person vote*" should be pretty obvious, especially when one considers the vote total differential at the time.

[Nietz]

That's a very general accusation. And I'm repeating the same points because you're doing the same things over and over again.
And still, you're missing the main point of the accusation - all you're doing is defending yourself. You are NOT being pro-town and scumhunting.

There you go again repeating things I have answered to. I'll patronize you, in case you are genuinely lost about it.
- Point  to Serp blowing things out of porpotion.
- Point to Serp's actions being vaguely suspicious.
- State that Alice doesn't seem scummy, people on his wagon are worse off for that. Opinion of Serp got worse, but Tenshi tops them all.
- Point faults in Suwako's statement.
- Upset at Suwako saying I should make opinions up.
- Same at Zakeri, plus unwarranted vote. Tenshi looks worse, but won't repeat Rou's points.
- Too Townie fallacy is a fallacy. Suspicions on Affinity, Jan and Zakeri, plus noticed a weird comment from Alice.
- Once again explain to Rou I had plenty of opinions and suspicions, having to explain what was weird in Alice's quote.
- See above. Plus, Zakeri was worse than I'd thought.
There, I took the time to make a list, but can't help if you keep insisting on it.

And why Alice in particular, when other people pointed out your lack of an opinion around the same time?

The whole point was that Alice was already looking forward to me being pursued Day 2. Don't tell me you didn't notice that.

The quality difference between "Tenshi looks really bad *Tenshi vote*" and "Tenshi looks really bad but here's something I noticed about someone else as well *other person vote*" should be pretty obvious, especially when one considers the vote total differential at the time.

Well, I thought the difference was pretty obvious but you seem to claim exactly the opposite.
I don't really see how "those people look bad because of this and that, but Tenshi looks worse *Tenshi vote*", is worse than "Tenshi looks really bad but I won't take part in his wagon and I'll go over there instead *other person vote*"

[Kiro]

I was going to reply to the latest posts, but the silence from several people is really discouraging and I don't feel like talking it up when Alice and Jan-san haven't posted in Day 2 and Xan doesn't have a case or a vote. If they can't even make a simple notification post explaining their absence, I don't know how else to approach this because I'd rather not bank on all the Scum being lurkers; it's just not realistic.

But in general, Zakeri's replies don't really refute the basic parts about my case on him and at least Nietz is responsive. But I'm not really seeing any new material come up. I hope to be a little more enthusiastic about discussing more tomorrow.

[Serp]

I am torn on Jan-san, however, mostly because the vote for Serpentarius doesn't make a whole lot of sense for Scum Jan. Rather than pushing a now-known human (and an easy target) to the obvious forefront, he voted for a currently-unknown who was the only mathematical chance for Tenshi to avoid a lynch. Everything else he's "done" - active lurking, the Alice jumps, even the stated reasons for the Serpentarius vote were bizarre - points to scum, but the Serpentarius vote sticking point is holding me off from labeling him scum. His next post will go a long way to determining what I think about him (and I would like it soon).

As I see it, trying to tip my bandwagon over the edge would've been a win-win situation for Scum Jan.  Either Moonspeak gets lynched anyway and Scum Jan has distanced himself from what he knew would be a mislynch, or else I get lynched instead and then Moonspeak is a shoe-in to lynch today - and I do think that if we hadn't lynched Moonspeak yesterday, then he almost certainly would've ended up as the primary candidate today.

[FinnKaenbyou]

- Point  to Serp blowing things out of porpotion.
- Point to Serp's actions being vaguely suspicious.

So from 'You're being way too serious about this' to 'it's sort of scummy'. Is that really such a big difference?

- State that Alice doesn't seem scummy, people on his wagon are worse off for that. Opinion of Serp got worse, but Tenshi tops them all.

It isn't hunting to say 'I think this person is Town, I don't like people who attack him'. And do you present anything NEW about Tenshi? No.

- Point faults in Suwako's statement.

No new hunting.

- Upset at Suwako saying I should make opinions up.

1. Everyone else had been able to discuss things at that time, so the 'there's nothing concrete' point makes no sense.
2. How do you expect do get out of RVS if you don't comment? Pointing out that Serp was acting OTT leads to discussion, which leads to information. That's a GOOD thing.
No new hunting.

Same at Zakeri, plus unwarranted vote. Tenshi looks worse, but won't repeat Rou's points.

I assume you wanted to quote this post here.
Anyway, you're misinterpreting what everyone is saying. You undoubtedly HAD an opinion when you said 'Serp is acting OTT', but in later posts you rolled back with nulltells. Why so nervous about making suggestions?

- Too Townie fallacy is a fallacy. Suspicions on Affinity, Jan and Zakeri, plus noticed a weird comment from Alice.

Okay, I'll make a mental note to lynch Serp every time he looks like a Townie as well as every time he looks like scum. Hell, let's make him the official day 1 policy lynch!
Too Townie is NOT a reason to vote someone on its own. The concept of Too Townie leads to other tells which themselves suggest scuminess, but unless those tells can be broken down and analysed there's no such thing as Too Townie.
It's only HERE you start producing something resembling hunting. Of course, here we start with the 'Alice is watching me in my sleep' business.

- Once again explain to Rou I had plenty of opinions and suspicions, having to explain what was weird in Alice's quote.

If you had opinions, why did you keep them to yourself? Arguing 'they were weak' when we're talking DAY 1 makes no sense at all.

- See above. Plus, Zakeri was worse than I'd thought.

Except this is just you saying 'no you're wrong' without explaining why. And obviously, now that you have, I only felt complied to explain why your defense doesn't hold.

The whole point was that Alice was already looking forward to me being pursued Day 2. Don't tell me you didn't notice that.

And my whole point is that I was looking forward to pursuing you Day 2 whatever Tenshi's flip. Why are you so convinced that Tenshi flipping Town gives you any sort of clear?

Now that I've responded, I'll go do a Zak reread.

[FinnKaenbyou]

Zak Day 1:

"Alice is scummy because he's lurking. I don't like how Serp voted him despite not knowing he was lurking because he could have been inactive. Oh and Tenshi is an idiot."

"Serp is blowing the Tenshi vote out of proportion. Repetition of what I just said."

"Repeating my points on Serp AGAIN. Voting Serp because he's given no good reason for his vote and Alice has shown up.
Also suspicious of Nietz for not having opinions."

"Why is talking to Serp a bad thing?"

"Tenshi is an idiot. I'm watching his wagon."

"This is why we should let Tenshi be an idiot."

"I DON'T KNOW WHAT SARCASM IS
Serp is bad because he's making a vote he KNOWS is bad"
...Uh...what?

"Unvote Serp because he isn't attacking Alice anymore.
I DON'T LIKE VOTING SCUMMY PLAYERS IF I HAVE MY OWN SUSPECT.
More defense of Tenshi the idiot.
Nietz, opinions plz.
Carth had a weird change of heart after Tenshi's WoT where he suddenly screamed OMGWTF OBVSCUM. Most of the points I'm putting up here are IIoA, by the way.
Vote Nietz because most of the points I made here against Carth aren't actually all that bad."

"Okay I give up, lynch Tenshi. BUT I'M STILL GOING TO DEFEND HIM JUST IN CASE."

Day 2:

"Vote Nietz again. Yes, I admit that most of my points against Carth Day 1 were sort of pointless."

"I thought Serp was bad for making a REALLY bad move rather than a slightly bad move.
TENSHI RAGE
I don't understand Serp's thought patterns, so he must be lying.
Nietz jumped on the Alice wagon after it was dead.
XAN RAAAAAAAGE"

Of all of these, there are a few points that stand out to me. Firstly the 'Should I let scummy wagons go through' point. It's, in short, a terrible point, because he's basically saying that his opinion is more important than anyone else's even in the face of evidence. He admits that he found Sodium scummy in Umineko, but he is asking if lynching him based on that is okay. Well, we're out to lynch SCUM, so...
Secondly, the WoT where he votes Nietz on D1, with mostly reporting and little actual analysis. In short, what was the point? Saying 'I understood Carthrat's thought process until here where he suddenly jumped on Tenshi' would have been much easier for everyone.

Still, maybe I'm being gullible but the first point in particular makes me uncertain that Zak is our man. It really sounds like he's trying to do some genuine thinking but he's just going at it the wrong way. The Tenshi lynch really seemed to genuinely annoy him, too, so I'm not really sure about lynching him based on this alone.

[?lice Bl?ckb?rn]

And that was a V/LA that I should have noted. Sorry about that >_> Reading now.

[Unesco]

Xan and Jan-san are being replaced. Kerigis and Sodium kindly PM me for confirmation and role details.