Miscellaneous Questions Thread 3 - Ask Question, Receive Answer

[Drake]

...would that mean then that Mamizou, the hobgoblins and the chupacabra only gained a definitive body upon entering Gensokyo?

What happens to youkai that leave Gensokyo, anyway? Yukari does it all the time and doesn't seem to be affected. Nue had to leave to go call Mamizou, and didn't seem worse to wear.

It's a tricky ambiguous thing to talk about so I tried to clarify, but guess it wasn't clear enough. How about this.

The youkai don't exist in the real world, as in actually our world in reality, not the "outside world" of the Touhou universe. The "outside world" in the Touhou universe is meant to model our real world, but with underlying extra bits that help form the context of the Touhou universe. Namely, that the youkai actually "exist" because we think them up. We would never be able to realistically prove that the youkai do "exist", since the youkai "exist" entirely because of phenomena we aren't able to explain, or because they're beings that we can't find or demonstrate. So in the context of the Touhou universe, Mamizou actually existed in the outside world (because people still might believe in tanuki) and was living among humans, but she had the excuse of being able to blend in or otherwise hide. Hobgoblins and the chupacabra "exist" in the outside world because people may still believe they exist despite them never being properly demonstrated to exist, and because of that, Yukari/Remilia were able to retrieve them by whatever means.

In-universe, they can continue to exist only because there are people believing in them. In reality, once people reject them as possibly existing, that's it: they have rejected the possibility of them existing. In-universe, this is why the Barrier was formed, so that youkai can move into Gensokyo to escape their dependency. When I say that they've crossed the boundary between fiction and reality, it means that they've moved from their existential dependency on humans, to a state where they actually, physically exist in a world. But in-universe, they still did "physically exist" on the outside, they just were in danger of being wiped out entirely "somehow" by the waning belief of humans. It also means that whatever form and purpose and other attributes that they were believed to have, by people in reality, would now at least somewhat dictate what they exist as, in Gensokyo. Like how stories of a certain youkai would change over time in reality; the youkai's form in the outside world would suit however people viewed it as. But in-universe, once they're in Gensokyo, you could say that they always had their current form, despite the fact that it almost definitely had changed previously throughout history. It's like the outside world is totally reality, but it really isn't if you look from reality, but if you look through the lens of Gensokyo it totally is. Derp.

It's all absurdly meta, and plays with and blurs the lines between reality and fiction. It pretends it is reality, by using models of reality that actually reflect reality, but fills in the blanks that the story requires just by the nature of how people think about the things you're writing the story about. This is why the meta-discussions of Touhou's inner workings are always so difficult to explain, but why I find them so unbelievably delicious.

[Starxsword]

DiPP is usually considered "just a story" (as in, possibly not "just a story", but it's formulated as such and doesn't seem to be strongly connected to anything else)

Like all stories, it is assumed to be canon. What happens in it is assumed to have happened in the Touhou universe.
This would also include the first story, where you see excerpts of events.

and that excerpt from the Youkai article is basically just what Akyuu recalls from all of her previous incarnations, which Akyuu admits herself isn't all that necessary anymore. It's correct, but actually attacking the humans is no longer relevant.

There is no indication that it is something she recalls from previous incarnations. This is the most recent publication of PMiSS, so all information here is assumed to be up to date.

Unless you are to tell me that there is something in the Youkai article that somehow mentions it being outdated. I know, for instance, something that is dated, gets their date mentioned, like Maribel's paper, or Aya's newspaper.

First of all, while it is obviously implied the vampires are the subject of the contract, it doesn't actually say "the vampires" will not attack humans; just that in exchange for proper humans as food, "they" (rather, whoever the implied subject of the contract is) will not attack the indigenous humans.

You can't just assume "they" as a reference to anyone else but vampires. That doesn't make sense and seems to be out of context.

Those as powerful as vampires are usually forbidden to directly assault humans.

They are forbidden to assault humans.

I think you missed the point of what I'm saying, which is that this is exactly the same rule as all of the other youkai, and this has been going on since the Barrier was formed.

I understand your point, what I am trying to say is there is a difference. The vampires is contractually obligated to do this, under the devil's contract, which cannot be broken.
Youkai, on the other hand, just have a law that they follow. They are not contractually obligated to do this, there is nothing magically binding them to do this.
They follow it because if they do not, their livelihoods are directly affected. This is because if Youkai kill humans, the balance in Gensokyo will crumble and youkai will be endangered, which destroys the purpose of the barrier.
Because of this, Youkai lose their will to fight, since they cannot attack humans, what can they do, what is their purpose? This is why spell card rules are created.

However, like the law they have when Gensokyo is created, spell card rules is also not something that is magically binding. This is why in the rules themselves, it says to not kill humans after beating them. Nothing is magically binding them to do this, but since this is a law that youkai agreed to, they follow it.

It's that the current youkai, then weakened, wouldn't be able to stand up to the new oppressor, and Gensokyo could end up being dominated. Not humans.

Denizens imply it includes everyone in Gensokyo. I see no reason why the new youkai would feel the need to follow its rules.

I still think it makes more sense for it to apply to all youkai (...both of them) rather than youkai just voluntarily following the rules.

I disagree.

Eh, dunno if Eiki is that trustworthy. She probably exaggerates her sermons so that people will listen to her. I think she probably meant that in the sense of "someone should've exterminated you already" or something.

As far as I can tell, Youkai are not immortal. They have a life span, it is just that it is longer than a humans. Oni, Tengu, and the like all have a life span. I don't quite know if this applies to all youkai types, it may just be specific to some youkai types.

If Ran is Tamame-no-Mae then that would be gross cheating on Yukari's part, effectively giving her twice as many votes and letting her dominate the council.

Nothing wrong with cheating.
Ran is most likely Tamame-no-Mae.

@Youkai from outside world:
Yeah, Youkai from outside world are just endangered, not extinct.

[Sagus]

It's a tricky ambiguous thing to talk about so I tried to clarify, but guess it wasn't clear enough. How about this.
-snip-

Ah, now I understand what you meant. I was mostly confused because I hadn't distinguished the "meta" part from the "in-universe" part. Thanks for elaborating.

[Biakmon]

Quote: As far as I can tell, Youkai are not immortal. They have a life span, it is just that it is longer than a humans. Oni, Tengu, and the like all have a life span. I don't quite know if this applies to all youkai types, it may just be specific to some youkai types.

- May I know what make you you think that Oni, Tengu and such have a life span?

[Biakmon]

How many Oni are there in the Touhou Universe? Only 2 or 3? What about the rest do they still live underground?

[Clarste]

How many Oni are there in the Touhou Universe? Only 2 or 3? What about the rest do they still live underground?

Unknown, but probably more than 2 or 3. Obviously there's Suika and Yuugi, and Kasen almost certainly for at least three. However, multiple characters have said at various points that the oni from the surface moved Underground. It's doubtful that Yuugi is the only one there. However, there are few enough that they seem to meet fairly rarely.

Other than that, there's an implied large population of them living and working in Hell (not Former Hell, the New Hell which we've never seen). Most of the oni are supposedly in this population, and I would personally estimate at least dozens if not hundreds or thousands although that's just a random guess. The use of the word "most" though implies at least 4 I guess? Since it's more than the three we know don't live there.

Other than that, the only hint we sort of have is the Kishin from WaHH chapter 12. This is a bit speculative so take it with a grain of salt. "Kishin" is written with the characters for "oni god" and because of Suiki's employment in Hell it's kind of implied that he or she is literally an oni that is a god. Kishin chief implies the existence of subordinates, and the myth Suiki comes from includes three other oni with different elemental powers. If they're all chiefs, that implies at least 8 Kishin I guess? For them all to have at least one lesser Kishin under their command.

[Drake]

Like all stories, it is assumed to be canon. What happens in it is assumed to have happened in the Touhou universe.
This would also include the first story, where you see excerpts of events.

I never said it didn't happen in Gensokyo; it pretty obviously says it does. But it's formulated as a story with no connection to anything else besides mentioning, like, voodoo dolls.
Additionally, even if this were able to be cleanly tied to the rest of canon, the 8 honest men were from the outside world, and as such weren't protected by the no-attacking rules. Moreover, it was one of the 8 honest men themselves that killed the rest, even if they became a youkai, and at the end of the story they left Gensokyo anyways. The culprit killed them all because they weren't actually honest men; they were liars and thieves and didn't care about each other at all. These are the sorts of people that would be spirited away in order to be eaten.

There is no indication that it is something she recalls from previous incarnations. This is the most recent publication of PMiSS, so all information here is assumed to be up to date.

But I even said it was still correct. What I said is that the part about humans being attacked isn't relevant in present Gensokyo. It says the reason most youkai attack humans is because they need prey, and hence you should offer something else. Given that youkai don't need prey in that they have food supplied, but still attack humans for the purpose of imposing themselves and causing conflict, it isn't necessary for current humans. That isn't to say that it never happens, particularly since outside humans are fair game, and possibly some specific villagers given what Yukari says in WaHH, but it seems pretty flimsy to use the quote as evidence. Additionally, the fact that the youkai would be attacking for prey and the offering saves them for the time being, does infer that this would be a common, or at least, reoccurring thing; clearly not the case in modern Gensokyo.

You can't just assume "they" as a reference to anyone else but vampires. That doesn't make sense and seems to be out of context.

I'm not saying that specific reference wasn't about the vampires, of course it was. I was saying that the wording of the contract just doesn't actually include the word vampire, and the translation only adds it to clarify. Because of that, I'm guessing that the contract isn't necessarily exclusive to the vampires.

Yes, youkai as strong as vampires are usually forbidden to attack humans, but it doesn't mean that lesser youkai aren't as well. Since vampires are a recent addition, it should follow that there are many more youkai like this as well. But it isn't necessarily just these youkai that are forbidden under an imposed rule, nor that this is the only sort of contract.

I understand your point, what I am trying to say is there is a difference. The vampires is contractually obligated to do this, under the devil's contract, which cannot be broken.
Youkai, on the other hand, just have a law that they follow. They are not contractually obligated to do this, there is nothing magically binding them to do this.
They follow it because if they do not, their livelihoods are directly affected. This is because if Youkai kill humans, the balance in Gensokyo will crumble and youkai will be endangered, which destroys the purpose of the barrier.

That is partially why I started mentioning it. If there is an inherent danger present by youkai attacking humans in Gensokyo (which I certainly believe), and all of the other youkai apparently not falling under this contract can get along fine without killing them, why is a contract explicitly forbidding it for these specific powerful youkai even necessary? Why even differentiate in the first place?

The other apparent majority of youkai surely vary wildly in intelligence and strength, and might not even care about the consequence, which is why I said I was skeptical of the other approach being just "please don't eat humans because X; if you eat humans we'll beat you up".

Denizens imply it includes everyone in Gensokyo. I see no reason why the new youkai would feel the need to follow its rules.

No no, I was giving you a more thorough translation.
これでは、何か新しい妖怪が外で死滅し幻想郷に流れ込んだ時に、現状の妖怪では歯が立たず幻想郷が支配されてしまうかも知れない。
"With this, if some new youkai was eliminated from the outside and flowed into Gensokyo, at that time if the present youkai did not stand up to them, it's possible Gensokyo could end up being conquered."

[cuc]

Part of the life span issue is this: in East Asian culture, the youkai lore is very much about how so and so - animals, trees, corpses, manmade objects, you name it - turns into a youkai after too many years. Exactly how long they can live after becoming youkai is never the concern of storytellers.

In the classic Chinese novel "Journey to the West" (hugely influential in Japan), all youkai want to eat the monk Triptaka's meat, because a saint's meat grants them immortality (inspiration to Touhou's "hermit meat is tasty to youkai"), implying they are not immortal. The novel also says in an early chapter where the Monkey learnt of death, if something lives for too long, natural forces will attempt to destroy it at certain intervals, with the last time being impossible to survive unless one trains to become a sennin (possible inspiration to Touhou's shinigami trials), which might account for why the youkai all seek immortality. But as far as I know, in overall, the idea of youkai life span has never been a widespread one. Everyone knows youkai want to eat Triptaka, but few remembers this early chapter where Monkey learnt to fear death and became a Taoist's discipline.

[Drake]

i bet it's why zun doesn't have any clear mentions about it either, the bum

[Starxsword]

I never said it didn't happen in Gensokyo; it pretty obviously says it does. But it's formulated as a story with no connection to anything else besides mentioning, like, voodoo dolls.

I see, I misunderstood what you meant. I am not too sure if they are outsiders.

I was saying that the wording of the contract just doesn't actually include the word vampire, and the translation only adds it to clarify. Because of that, I'm guessing that the contract isn't necessarily exclusive to the vampires.

I see what you mean. I don't agree with the idea that it isn't exclusive to vampires. It doesn't make sense.

The other apparent majority of youkai surely vary wildly in intelligence and strength, and might not even care about the consequence, which is why I said I was skeptical of the other approach being just "please don't eat humans because X; if you eat humans we'll beat you up".

Gensokyo is safer, but it isn't completely safe. Most youkai are on board with this idea, but not every youkai. In her monologue, Akyuu mentions that youkai almost never eat humans, but not never. By eating humans, I assume she means humans from Gensokyo. Since it is pretty clear that outside world humans are fair game.

It makes more sense if spell card rules is a law and gets enforced by youkai or humans. Kind of like that group of humans in Wild and Horned Hermit that gathered up some kind of hunting party or some such after someone got injured by accident.

What I am arguing is that the Spell Card rules themselves aren't magically binding. Since there is no indication on how it could be so.

Everyone knows youkai want to eat Triptaka, but few remembers this early chapter where Monkey learnt to fear death and became a Taoist's discipline.

By Monkey, I assume you mean Son Goku? I only really know the story after he went to heaven and got a huge power boost from eating all those peaches. He did some studying with some monk prior to that, but I do not know that part of the story.

[Tengukami]

The simplest answer is that the Outside World hasn't completely run out of belief yet. There's nothing so hard and fast about Gensokyo's barrier that's absolutely necessary to keep them all alive inside it. Outside, they'd be weakened and gradually disappear, but they can still live. They're endangered, not extinct.

This, right here, is one of those very simple and obvious points that can get lost in all the straw-grasping and hair-splitting when it comes to the life of youkai in Gensokyo. Most of us probably know at least one person who believes in supernatural forces. It wouldn't be surprising if, in a country as steeped in mythology and tradition as Japan, there would be enough of such people to keep a great number of Gensokyo's denizens alive and well.

[Prime32]

By Monkey, I assume you mean Son Goku? I only really know the story after he went to heaven and got a huge power boost from eating all those peaches. He did some studying with some monk prior to that, but I do not know that part of the story.

It's where he learned most of his powers. IIRC he also managed to bypass all their spiritual requirements ("go with the flow", etc.) through sheer ability, which should be impossible, and it kind of went to his head. So the hermit who trained him kicked him out, and made him swear to never tell anyone how he learned that stuff.

[Zil]

Sorry to interrupt this awesome talk about about Touhou lore.

Can someone who can read Japanese tell me what this is? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u-bhzSV2YYk

[K+ ~ Bake-Danuki]

Guys, what will happen to Touhou after ZUN dies?  Will he pass it on to someone else or will it simply die (like Mega Man in essence...)?

[cuc]

Sorry to interrupt this awesome talk about about Touhou lore.

Can someone who can read Japanese tell me what this is? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u-bhzSV2YYk

Apparently it's a short R-18 visual novel with Kotohime and Yumemi as heroines, with the full version expected to be released on Comiket 84. The author's twitter (no NSFW content on the page, but may link to NSFW material).

[Biakmon]

Some questions
1) Is Shikieiki a yama or a kishin? Is a yama higher in rank than a kishin cheif?

2) What the difference between those 2 exactly?

3) Does anyone know anything (apart being a male) about this Kishin cheif "Suiki" they were talking about in Touhou Ibarakasen: Wild And Horned Hermit.

4) What did they mean by "original youkai" in chapter 9 Pg. 11 of Wild And Horned Hermit?

- Could those "original youkai" be the same as the one in Touhou Suzunaan - Forbidden Scrollery chapter 3?

5) Why Youkai did not continue to attack human (make them feel fear, etc.) to preserve there existence? Were the human starting to become too strong and numerous for them to handle in the long run?

[CyberAngel]

1) Is Shikieiki a yama or a kishin? Is a yama higher in rank than a kishin cheif?

She's a yama. She's Shikieiki Yamaxanadu, remember? Kishin chiefs are lower in rank than yamas.

2) What the difference between those 2 exactly?

Yamas judge. Kishin chiefs punish.

3) Does anyone know anything (apart being a male) about this Kishin cheif "Suiki" they were talking about in Touhou Ibarakasen: Wild And Horned Hermit.

That chapter is the only place where he appears or is mentioned.

4) What did they mean by "original youkai" in chapter 9 Pg. 11 of Wild And Horned Hermit?

I guess it refers to how youkai were before Gensokyo's existence. As to why there is such a difference, I think Reimu explains it nicely on the very same page. Many youkai are fine with humans not fearing them nowadays, there are even those that visit or even live in Human village. It's hard to be afraid of someone you can share a drink with, isn't it? "Original youkai" weren't like that at all.

5) Why Youkai did not continue to attack human (make them feel fear, etc.) to preserve there existence? Were the human starting to become too strong and numerous for them to handle in the long run?

Humans in Outside World stopped fearing (and pretty much believing in) youkai, so they grew weaker there. As for Gensokyo, it's the other way around - there are too few humans, but they believe in youkai, so they are preserved instead.

[Sagus]

Some questions
1) Is Shikieiki a yama or a kishin? Is a yama higher in rank than a kishin cheif?

She's a Yama.
They don't seem to belong to the same hierarchy.

2) What the difference between those 2 exactly?

Yamas judge people, Kishin supervise their punishment in Hell (and sometimes go hunting people that Hell wants dead, it seems)

3) Does anyone know anything (apart being a male) about this Kishin cheif "Suiki" they were talking about in Touhou Ibarakasen: Wild And Horned Hermit.

Nah, he only appeared there.

5) Why Youkai did not continue to attack human (make them feel fear, etc.) to preserve there existence? Were the human starting to become too strong and numerous for them to handle in the long run?

I think that's probably the most reasonable explanation. They become too numerous and spread out, and with the advent of larger civilizations, there was less reasons to "fear the night". Although it's likely that some of the more powerful youkai wouldn't have problems attacking large concentration of people (like Yuuka or Suika), weaker youkai would probably hesitate to go hunt for humans in the middle of a city.

The fact that there are still monsters in the outside means that there are still people believing in them, though. Hm, the most superstitious people tend to be ones living in small, rural towns/villages (not exclusively, of course, I'm generalizing). Those are probably easier for youkai to infiltrate and keep the population's fear of them alive.

EDIT: Damnit, ninja'd :V

[Starxsword]

She's a Yama.
They don't seem to belong to the same hierarchy.

Yamas are the rulers of Hell. Everything in Hell is under their jurisdiction. Yamas should be able to boss Kishin around.

Were the human starting to become too strong and numerous for them to handle in the long run?

What the others said.
Humans can't be stronger than youkai. That is not going to happen. What youkai is weak against is the spiritual and humans in the outside world stopped believing in youkai, so they disappear.
You can say that Gensokyo's youkai evolved and some no longer need belief to sustain then. However, I am guessing they still need a purpose.

[Biakmon]

Humans can't be stronger than youkai. That is not going to happen. What youkai is weak against is the spiritual and humans in the outside world stopped believing in youkai, so they disappear.

- Well before the Gensokyo barrier was ever created!

Then why did they stop believing in youkai? Is it because the human spread out and as time pass human did not believe in their existence to the pt where they were significantly weaker (could not oppose the human anymore) and start to disappear.

I still can't see how people can't believe in the existence of a being who can shoot laser beam and eat an entire group of human in a blink of a eye if they (youkai) repeatably did those act in front of numerous human. Won't that cause enough commotion to make people (or at least the people across the area) to believe in them?

[Sagus]

Yamas are the rulers of Hell. Everything in Hell is under their jurisdiction. Yamas should be able to boss Kishin around.

Hm. Well, Akyuu's article does say that it was the Ten Kings that created the system in the first place, so maybe that's true. But the other Yama (like Eiki) are only explicitly stated to control shinigami.

I still can't see how people can't believe in the existence of a being who can shoot laser beam and eat an entire group of human in a blink of a eye if they (youkai) repeatably did those act in front of numerous human. Won't that cause enough commotion to make people (or at least the people across the area) to believe in them?

Well, youkai legends usually don't have them going to human settlements and burning everything down. They usually pick up single lost humans, or enchant people, or similar things. Stands to reason that, the more humans become organized (therefore exposing themselves less) and search for scientific explanations for phenomena previously explained as "youkai did it!", the more they'd start dismissing the singular deaths caused by youkai as "accidents" or "wild beasts" or something else. And even the ones that do raid human villages (like oni) could be explained as rival towns or something (in the oni's case, we also have to consider that they left the world on their own will; IIRC it's not stated exactly when this happened, so maybe it was before even the Hakurei Barrier's creation)

Older, more powerful youkai are described as not being particularly active, and to pretty much lose interest in normal humans (as Yuuka's article says), so it could also explain why people forget them as singular entities. The fact that they don't disappear could mean that they represent a deeply ingrained fear in humans. Maybe. Like, I dunno, fear of the wilderness or something.

[Biakmon]

Well, youkai legends usually don't have them going to human settlements and burning everything down. They usually pick up single lost humans, or enchant people, or similar things. Stands to reason that, the more humans become organized (therefore exposing themselves less) and search for scientific explanations for phenomena previously explained as "youkai did it!", the more they'd start dismissing the singular deaths caused by youkai as "accidents" or "wild beasts" or something else. And even the ones that do raid human villages (like oni) could be explained as rival towns or something (in the oni's case, we also have to consider that they left the world on their own will; IIRC it's not stated exactly when this happened, so maybe it was before even the Hakurei Barrier's creation)

Older, more powerful youkai are described as not being particularly active, and to pretty much lose interest in normal humans (as Yuuka's article says), so it could also explain why people forget them as singular entities. The fact that they don't disappear could mean that they represent a deeply ingrained fear in humans. Maybe. Like, I dunno, fear of the wilderness or something.

- Thanks for the clarifications.

[Starxsword]

Hm. Well, Akyuu's article does say that it was the Ten Kings that created the system in the first place, so maybe that's true. But the other Yama (like Eiki) are only explicitly stated to control shinigami.

While there is no proof, Eiki seems to be modelled after the 5th of the 10 kings, as she is merciful and her judgement is final.

The wiki on Eiki's profile used to have information about that, since there is a connection. I wonder what happened to it?

As for Yama, they would also have control over Kishin, here is pretty much the order in Perfect Momento in Strict Sense:

At the top of this organization, there presides 10 Yamas.(*3)
Below them are lesser judges and kishin chiefs. Each and every judge also commands several shinigami, while each of the kishin chiefs similarly commands a number of lesser oni.
Within this place, all lower ranks including lesser judges may consult with the Yamas.

If you are a Yama and not just a judge, presumably, you can order Kishin chiefs around.

Now, the wiki article here is a bit confusing to me. From reading it, I'm lead to believe that the Ministry of Right and Wrong is Hell. If this is correct, then, at the top, there are 10 yamas. But that would also mean the 10 yamas here would be the same as the 10 kings.
But before that, it talks about having more yamas? So, is the Ministry of Right and Wrong not Hell?

Since Komachi seems to serve only Eiki, I would assume Komachi is pretty high in the ranks of Hell.

the more they'd start dismissing the singular deaths caused by youkai as "accidents" or "wild beasts" or something else. And even the ones that do raid human villages (like oni) could be explained as rival towns or something (in the oni's case, we also have to consider that they left the world on their own will; IIRC it's not stated exactly when this happened, so maybe it was before even the Hakurei Barrier's creation)

Hakurei Barrier was only created around 120+ years ago. Oni left more than a thousand years ago. Its been so long that people don't even remember what oni weaknesses are.

[Tengukami]

And yet, mythology. It's demonstrable that not everyone has forgotten - historians, curators, academics, amateur archivists, families passing down oral traditions, folks who simply have an interest in the subject for whatever reason, etc. We should bear in mind that while Gensokyo is fiction, the Outside World mentioned is the one that you and I live in.

[Failure McFailFace]

Random question.

Are there any "official" names for the bullets in the games?

Just wondering.

[ToyoRai]

And yet, mythology. It's demonstrable that not everyone has forgotten - historians, curators, academics, amateur archivists, families passing down oral traditions, folks who simply have an interest in the subject for whatever reason, etc. We should bear in mind that while Gensokyo is fiction, the Outside World mentioned is the one that you and I live in.

Then again, just because youkais aren't forgotten, doesn't mean people believe in their existence. Kanako said it best:
"That's right. "It'd be fun if they existed. Wouldn't it be exciting? But it's too bad they aren't real." is the mindset of modern humans."
So youkais existence in Outside World isn't tied to what people know, but what people believe in.

Sorry if this isn't properly related. I have been off the curve of this thread

[Tengukami]

No, that's a fair and valid point; "knowing about" is not the same thing as "believing in", you're right. But in this crazy ol' world, I think it's probably less likely that there is no one who believes in youkai than that there are enough genuine, sincere people who believe youkai exist. Enough to keep them alive? Apparently! And that's aside from exactly how much they need to be believed in to stay alive, which I think was covered earlier in this thread.

[ToyoRai]

I was thinking in the lines of "Why they still need to Gensokyo". There are some people to let them live, sure, but unless there is particular interest of tem or an outburst of believe on them (like what happened with zashiki-warashi in WaHH Chapter 14), they need to stay in Gensokyo to stay alive. And the few who exist in human world (I just call Outside World that because I like that name better) probably only can live there thanks to a group of people who still deeply believe they exist

[Tengukami]

Well, we can also think of a lot of practical reasons for wanting to stay in an area that is their natural habitat, where they are safe from encroaching development, and likely won't be trapped, tagged, drugged and vivisected.

[Sagus]

While there is no proof, Eiki seems to be modelled after the 5th of the 10 kings, as she is merciful and her judgement is final.

The wiki on Eiki's profile used to have information about that, since there is a connection. I wonder what happened to it?

As for Yama, they would also have control over Kishin, here is pretty much the order in Perfect Momento in Strict Sense:

At the top of this organization, there presides 10 Yamas.(*3)
Below them are lesser judges and kishin chiefs. Each and every judge also commands several shinigami, while each of the kishin chiefs similarly commands a number of lesser oni.
Within this place, all lower ranks including lesser judges may consult with the Yamas.

If you are a Yama and not just a judge, presumably, you can order Kishin chiefs around.

Now, the wiki article here is a bit confusing to me. From reading it, I'm lead to believe that the Ministry of Right and Wrong is Hell. If this is correct, then, at the top, there are 10 yamas. But that would also mean the 10 yamas here would be the same as the 10 kings.
But before that, it talks about having more yamas? So, is the Ministry of Right and Wrong not Hell?

Since Komachi seems to serve only Eiki, I would assume Komachi is pretty high in the ranks of Hell.

Hm. I always assumed that "lesser judges" was just another term for a Yama of lesser rank. It's stated that many of them were Jizou statues that applied to the job. I always considered Eiki one of these "lesser judges" because Komachi said she was once a Jizou statue (she says so in one of the Three Faeries manga); if she was one of the Ten Kings, she would predate these statues-turned-judges. And at any rate, the Ten Kings are explicitly named in the Yama article, and none of them have Eiki's name.

Regarding the Ministry of Right and Wrong, it seems reasonable to assume that they are, indeed, the ones that control Hell. I mean, they are the ones that made the move from Old Hell to New Hell; if they didn't control it, I don't see how they'd be able to make that change. It's certainly not the only thing that they do, but it's probably part of their job to control Hell's finances, the kinds of punishments people suffer, etc etc.