Author Topic: some questions regarding stage layouts and music making  (Read 3957 times)

some questions regarding stage layouts and music making
« on: May 02, 2011, 12:53:48 AM »
hello! ^^

I heard somewhere that, to learn how to make an independent game, it would be a good idea to make a simple engine and see if the gameplay is fun enough, and then develop over it; so, here are some questions, thank you in advance:

- which languages are the most favored for developing these games and where do I start if I have no prior experience in game/engine making? (C++ programming books featuring interruptions and array manipulations for 3d flight simulators scared me back then around 1997, and I don't understand anything about DirectX, is it too difficult to understand or get into?)

- what are good places to learn about stage designing or general gameplay theory? (things like flow, balancing, etc.. I don't want the stages to be linear, repetitive, monotonous, nor that the player stays much time without doing anything)

- also, since I'm also having problems regarding how to create a plot that justifies the presence of the characters I want to use, how do you people handle the plot creation in a way that it's convincing? (quick example: ESP Galuda, ESP Ra.De, Battle Garegga, Armed Police Batrider, etc..)
I can't define a goal for the antagonists or protagonists, or a good enough goal.

- and finally, for now, where do I start if I want to try to make music? :p  (I don't play any instruments and don't know how to read tablatures.. is there any hope? :p)
neku: now for something important.
Translations.
How much time do you guys think it will take for HM to be translated? Besides everyone's story modes and the whole menus, there's also the fact that the way HM's programmed is different from all other games. I bet it'll take two months.

lusvik: I don't mind about playing HM in japanese. The language of punching other people is international.

DX7.EP

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  • *
  • Smooth Charisma
    • Sanmaat (site of personal tat)
Re: some questions regarding stage layouts and music making
« Reply #1 on: May 02, 2011, 01:34:27 AM »
hello! ^^

I heard somewhere that, to learn how to make an independent game, it would be a good idea to make a simple engine and see if the gameplay is fun enough, and then develop over it; so, here are some questions, thank you in advance:
Good idea! I'm on the same boat as well.

Quote
- which languages are the most favored for developing these games and where do I start if I have no prior experience in game/engine making? (C++ programming books featuring interruptions and array manipulations for 3d flight simulators scared me back then around 1997, and I don't understand anything about DirectX, is it too difficult to understand or get into?)
C++ is a very common language for game engines. Often many starting developers will use an existing engine like UDK, Source, etc. to start due to the reduced need to do low-level work. As for DirectX, well, I personally prefer OpenGL (cross-platform) but this can be alleviated with a middleware API like OGRE or Irrlicht.

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- what are good places to learn about stage designing or general gameplay theory? (things like flow, balancing, etc.. I don't want the stages to be linear, repetitive, monotonous, nor that the player stays much time without doing anything)
Can't really answer this one. I guess this comes about as a result of playing games and seeing what they did and how it affects your ideal.

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- also, since I'm also having problems regarding how to create a plot that justifies the presence of the characters I want to use, how do you people handle the plot creation in a way that it's convincing? (quick example: ESP Galuda, ESP Ra.De, Battle Garegga, Armed Police Batrider, etc..)
I can't define a goal for the antagonists or protagonists, or a good enough goal.
Hm, this is one question I find interesting too. Can't answer since I'm not a writer at all...and for my game project (WIP) the plot is out of the way for now to focus on gameplay aspects.

Quote
- and finally, for now, where do I start if I want to try to make music? :p  (I don't play any instruments and don't know how to read tablatures.. is there any hope? :p)
This is one area where I can help, though.
Anvil Studio, OpenMPT, and GarageBand are great programs to start writing music with. There are others but I'm listing just the free ones.
I'd also recommend learning how to read musical notation, basic theory (eg. what are scales and chords?), and piano rolls (and tracker notation if you use tracking software such as OpenMPT).

Sorry if some of the questions aren't answered but I'm trying to find these things out too.
C:DOS> ayayaya.mid
Bad command or file name

C:>_

Re: some questions regarding stage layouts and music making
« Reply #2 on: May 02, 2011, 02:18:54 AM »
Well, I made my game in GameMaker 8. What I like is how easy it is to use, and you can still code in it if you need to. Also, I tend to prototype ideas using it, simple prototypes can be whipped up in less than an hour. The only issue I've had is that it starts lagging after I have over 10-20 thousand bullets on screen for my game. Still, it's fairly useful.

As for plot, I just create game mechanics and characters, the story will come out of that.

As for music, all I do is whistle, so I can't really help you there.

Azure Lazuline

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Re: some questions regarding stage layouts and music making
« Reply #3 on: May 02, 2011, 07:19:39 PM »
For programming, just try out different things and use whichever one works best for you. It's all opinion.

As for stage design, that's much tougher, and the hardest thing to do for a game. You can have the best engine ever, but if your stages suck, then the game will suck too. Obviously there's no definitive way to make good stages, but there's some general tips you can follow. Since you didn't specify what kind of game you want, the tips will be rather general.


First, the big thing, even though it's  not exactly stage design related - don't create a game, create an experience. Think about what you want your player to feel when playing the game, and build the game around that. Don't just put together a bunch of gameplay mechanics and hope they work well together.

Kirby's Epic Yarn is a great example of this. The creators thought "we want to overflow the player with extreme amounts of cuteness" and made sure every aspect of the game fit that. There's no death in the game, since death leads to frustration, and frustration isn't cute. Every stage has distinctly different graphics and themes, so even if the game is fairly short, there's never a point where you don't find a new cute thing to look at. The story is extremely cheesy and basic, like a children's book, since children's books are cute. Even opening a new level has a unique cute animation for each stage, even though it serves no gameplay purpose - it's just there for more cuteness. There's even collectible pointless cute items in every stage, just because.

If your game is about a badass action hero - say, Samus or Mega Man - make sure the rest of the game fits that. Make the player feel like a badass too. Give them awesome weapons and lots of firepower, and never have any breaks in the action that are longer than 30 seconds.


Okay, so now onto stage design tips. You already touched on most of them in the original post. The big thing is to never have a dull moment. However, what defines a "dull moment"? That's the part that most people don't understand. To me, a dull moment is any time in gameplay where I don't have to make a decision. Deciding whether to jump over an enemy or shoot it is a good example. It's even better if you also have to decide which weapon to use or whether you need to go that way at all. The thing is, if you use the same enemy multiple times, it's not boring specifically because it's repetitive - it's boring because after the first few, you already know the optimal strategy, so there's no decision-making involved. It's okay to use the same enemy a lot as long as the strategy for that enemy changes - like putting it on higher ground so it's more difficult to shoot, or giving it another enemy type as a guard so they work together.

This also applies on the macro level (going back into general game design) - take the shorter but harder path, or take the easier route? Or, as a specific example, beat Air Man first because the jet makes platforming easier, or beat Wood Man before that so you get his weapon, which is Air Man's weakness? Those kind of things are good design. However, using Mega Man as the example again, Metal Man is bad design. He's the easiest boss and he gives you the best weapon, so there's absolutely no reason to not kill him first. You want to prevent that.

Back into stage design, variety is key, but don't overdo it. If your game is a platformer, you don't need to make the final boss a danmaku shooter. You want each stage to be unique and memorable. Nobody really cares if a game is short as long as it's fun the whole way through: look at Portal. It's very short, but every moment of the game is polished and serves a purpose, so it became a huge hit. If it was twice as long but didn't introduce any new gameplay mechanics during that other half, it wouldn't have been as good. If something is just "filler" and serves no gameplay purpose, simply remove it.


That's everything I want to say for now. There's a lot more that can be said about game design, but I'm not going to get into a whole bunch of detail regarding it unless you specifically ask for help on one aspect of design. Actually, there's one more thing I want to say: game design is hard. Don't be overambitious. You don't want to spend years making a game only to find out that the basic gameplay mechanics and structure isn't all that fun (most people say FF13 falls under this category). Make a simple game, see if it works, and once people show their reactions, think about how you can improve it. Don't worry about having epic graphics and music, even though that contradicts what I said earlier about making everything fit the experience. If your experience requires photorealistic graphics and a full orchestra, that's fine, but you should probably do something else if you're a beginning designer.

And most of all, good luck.

Blargel

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Re: some questions regarding stage layouts and music making
« Reply #4 on: May 02, 2011, 08:37:34 PM »
- also, since I'm also having problems regarding how to create a plot that justifies the presence of the characters I want to use, how do you people handle the plot creation in a way that it's convincing? (quick example: ESP Galuda, ESP Ra.De, Battle Garegga, Armed Police Batrider, etc..)
I can't define a goal for the antagonists or protagonists, or a good enough goal.
Depending on the type of characters you have, sometimes you don't even need to define a story or goals. If you insist on a sort of basic story, you can always just go with good guys vs bad guys. The bad guys don't even need a reason to be bad. For example, in Angry Birds, the story is that the pigs are stealing the birds' eggs (or something like that). Why are they stealing the eggs? Who knows. But the game is popular as hell for some reason. Simple games hardly need a story to be fun. If, however, you're making something like an RPG, of course story will be more important. However, an RPG is a bit complicated for a first game, so you should shoot for something simple.

Quote
- and finally, for now, where do I start if I want to try to make music? :p  (I don't play any instruments and don't know how to read tablatures.. is there any hope? :p)
I play an instrument, but I'm terrible at actually composing anything. If I had to give a suggestion, it's to try to learn some music theory (the internet probably can help with that). I dunno how helpful that'd be though.
<WorkingKeine> when i get home i just go to the ps3 and beat people up in blazblue with a loli
<Azure> Keine: Danmakufu helper by day, violent loli by night.

Chau

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Re: some questions regarding stage layouts and music making
« Reply #5 on: May 03, 2011, 03:39:56 PM »
I've already worked a bit with the RPG Maker and what I learned from that is that planning is very important. There are lots of RPGM-games that have a not-so-good quality (to put it mildly) because the creator immediately started to code (or "to map" in case of the RPGM) thinking "I'll make a game that will be super-epic" without having an actual idea what the game should be about.
I have some documents on my computer where I've written down stuff about the characters, stages, the story, the gameplay mechanics, what I have to do soon, miscellaneous ideas, ...
And when I have collected ideas so that I have a raw imagination of what this game will be like, then I start.
(I think it's also possible to do it without that much planning, it depends on the developer's personality :V)
Sometimes you get cool ideas out of the blue, then it's important that you write them down (as a pupil, I just write/draw it into the "Notes" section of my diary) before you forget them (unless you are good at remembering things).

Concerning the music, I think it's good if you listen to music from video games that fits to the basic atmosphere/feeling you want to create. And it's also good if you listen to other kinds of music (AND play different kinds of music) because this makes you more musically versatile. But since you don't play any instruments and apparently don't know much about music theory, I think that composing the music will be pretty difficult, even if you now start to learn how to play an instrument. It's just my opinion, but I think that it usually takes years until a musician is able to compose music on an appropriate level without using basic chords all the time.

Blargel

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Re: some questions regarding stage layouts and music making
« Reply #6 on: May 03, 2011, 04:28:05 PM »
In the case of something like RPG Maker, planning everything ahead might be a good idea, but when making a game pretty much completely from scratch, it's usually better not to worry about what the game's content is going to be and just get the basic system working first. If you think too far ahead, you might get excited about working on less important parts before you have a solid code foundation. When that happens, sometimes you'll realize later that you need to rework something to get the basic system working correctly and have to throw out all the stuff you built on top of it already. That sort of thing is always a morale killer and you may lose interest in developing the game if it happens.

Long story short, start with the basics and add on story and level design later.
<WorkingKeine> when i get home i just go to the ps3 and beat people up in blazblue with a loli
<Azure> Keine: Danmakufu helper by day, violent loli by night.

Azure Lazuline

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Re: some questions regarding stage layouts and music making
« Reply #7 on: May 03, 2011, 09:39:10 PM »
Oh, a quick thing about what kind of game to make. For your first game, starting out with an RPG or a 3D flying game or anything like that is probably a bad idea. Stick to 2D quick games until you get a few people helping you, but don't ask for people to help before you have even made anything! If you think you can do all the programming and design but need someone else to do the graphics/music, then do your part first, show everyone the awesome game you made, and you'll be much more likely to get help.

DX7.EP

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Re: some questions regarding stage layouts and music making
« Reply #8 on: May 04, 2011, 06:57:38 AM »
Start with the basic API first. This is the most grueling part of the coding process but is also the most fundamental. Once, say, a circle is drawn on screen, start expanding from there to, say, controls, sounds, etc. Then the real game can be developed slowly.

Post videos, screenshots, and teasers regularly of the game progress to attract interest and support for development and patches.

Concerning the music, I think it's good if you listen to music from video games that fits to the basic atmosphere/feeling you want to create. And it's also good if you listen to other kinds of music (AND play different kinds of music) because this makes you more musically versatile. But since you don't play any instruments and apparently don't know much about music theory, I think that composing the music will be pretty difficult, even if you now start to learn how to play an instrument. It's just my opinion, but I think that it usually takes years until a musician is able to compose music on an appropriate level without using basic chords all the time.
This is too hard to not recommend, especially the last part. For my own experience I began playing piano in 1997 and violin in 2001, but didn't even start composing until 9-10 years later, and even then the initial works were quite terrible (lots of "put note here and see what happens" at first).
C:DOS> ayayaya.mid
Bad command or file name

C:>_

Re: some questions regarding stage layouts and music making
« Reply #9 on: May 05, 2011, 01:46:46 AM »
thank you very much so far for the inputs! (and once again, it's never enough to thank you for more information to come)

I'll try to make something (more exactly and honestly, I want to make a "MegaMari" with Megaman X-ish gameplay and more things.. to the point that it may even need a Megaman X mode, that's how far the other modes are in my opinion from the source series' gameplay :p), but currently my time is limited (school and work, and school tends to focus on subjects which may be different from what I'd like to attempt learning at first, and I don't know exactly what it's going to teach next :p). Unfortunately, the school I'm in doesn't focus much on other areas which aren't 3d modelling-oriented, so, programming and prototyping may be delayed due to this :(

But I'll be patient and, when the time comes, attempt to show some progress :D
neku: now for something important.
Translations.
How much time do you guys think it will take for HM to be translated? Besides everyone's story modes and the whole menus, there's also the fact that the way HM's programmed is different from all other games. I bet it'll take two months.

lusvik: I don't mind about playing HM in japanese. The language of punching other people is international.