Author Topic: WMG: Alice's past  (Read 4169 times)

PeachAndAPair

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WMG: Alice's past
« on: May 16, 2010, 09:40:55 PM »
Basically taken from TVTroupes and expanded upon.

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We all know her, and most of us love her. But now that time has passed, and many people are thinking more of our new magician Byakuren, and our new Crow Tengu Hatate.

Does this mean Miss Margatroid has been forgotten?

No, but let's take a look back on her Lore, and by the time most people read and comment or discuss this topic.

But moving on, Alice Margatroid made her first appearance as, Alice, in Mystic Square, being the second boss to appear in the main story as a boss, and then appear as the Extra Boss. (The first being Rika)

In Mystic Square: Alice took the "Grimoire of Alice" and used it in the extra boss fight. Only to be defeated shortly after.
Now, what happened to her book after that? By the common knowledge rule of Touhou, I'm not allowed to spoil that, for it was told in the ending. But when we see Alice again, approximately a year after the last events of the PC-98 era, we see her all grown up, with the book, and out for revenge.

One concern some fans might notice: "How did she grow up so quickly?" "Is the book she using the same?" "What happened to everyone in the PC-98 Era, and why only Alice (And Yuka) made it into the windows series?"

Well, the answers are clear, simple, and probably implied. Alice is still out for vengeance. Out to fight Marisa and Reimu, to get back at them for her defeat in TH5.

Another person who did a WMG on Alice, claims that Shinki warped Alice into another dimension to get her away from danger. Taking her away from the harsh world of the PC-98 era, to the safe lands of the Windows Series, where the spellcard rule is in use. This way, Alice can live a more simple life, without worrying about death... as much. The guess also says that Alice was sent incredibly far back in time, to make up for the fact that she's all grown up, in what seems like one year.

As claimed in PMiSS, Youkais all age slower. This includes Magicians. Patchouli is about 100 years old, Byakuren around 1000, and Alice is unknown. Why is that? We saw her in PC-98, her age should be known. They didn't even give her the "About X years old" business they usually do for many other characters, like Cirno. (But then again, many other characters suffer from unknown ages)

Now how did Alice Margatroid age so quickly? Is the WMG explained above true? or is there another possibility.

This my Wild Guess.

Alice Margatroid is a Doll.

I have many evidence to support my claim.

Like explained above, PC-98 and windows are about 1 (one) year away from each other. What happened, is that this doll, called Alice Margatroid, is a reflection of what Alice could have been if she grew up, but since she opened the Grimoire, that won't happen.
And Shinki's power is unknown, so the whole "Warping Alice to another Dimension" is possible, however unlikely, since her power has something to do with Sara, Luize, Yuki, Mai and Yumeko, since it was established, that everyone (And retconned out, excluding Alice) was created by Shinki. So unless she has an incredibly vague power like Yukari's Manipulation of Boundaries, it's safe to assume that Shinki's power is to give life.
That said, it would be unlikely that Shinki can warp Alice. The only way that this Larger, grown up Alice is possible, is that it's actually just a doll.

And as said in Alice's physical description in PMiSS

"She has blond hair and pale skin, and looks very much like a doll herself."

Looking like a doll would be very difficult to do without make up. And since this is Gensokyo, I would assume the only person who would have access to make up would be Marisa and her Mushrooms, or Yukari.

however, it's also states that "She's the type of magician that was originally human and became one through training."

Why is that? Could it be I'm wrong just because this is true? No, because here is my next wild guess.

There are two Alices.

One who is a doll, and the other who is a the real, PC-98 Alice. The Alice we see today is actually just a doll controlled by the Alice from the PC-98 Era. So to make things more simple, Alice from the Windows series will be refered to as Margatroid, and Alice from the PC-98 era, will be named, Alice.

Moving on, "Margatroid's dolls appear to be able to act and talk independently."


Which means, that Alice is also capable of doing this.

In PMiSS, it's also claimed that Margatroid has the ability to make dolls control other dolls. If Margatroid can do this, then Alice can as well. Where the Margatroid dolled is controlled to Alice's will, she can make it do as she pleases.

Now why doesn't Margatroid ever use her Grimoire of Alice? This is because it's not the real Grimoire. It's a false replica to make Margatroid look like Alice. Where Alice has the real Grimoire, using it to control Margatroid.

With this, we answer the question about Miss Margatroid

Quick Aging [She didn't age, she is a constructed Doll]
How she knows Reimu but she doesn't know her [Reimu wouldn't know someone who is all grown up. I'm sure it's hard to recognize them. However, since Margatroid isn't exactly Alice, of course someone would be strange that someone you never met came up to you and wanted you dead.]
How Margatroid can move around if she is a doll [Thanks to many claims in PMiSS]
Why Margatroid never uses her book after PC-98 [She can't, because it isn't real. Alice has the real one.]

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And that's the wild guess, thought I'd share it along with this:
http://i39.tinypic.com/b3ln5e.jpg

<Tengukami> Please keep images under 640x480, and less than 150 KB. Thanks!
« Last Edit: May 16, 2010, 09:44:31 PM by Tengukami »
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Sabino

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Re: WMG: Alice's past
« Reply #1 on: May 17, 2010, 01:48:57 PM »
People are free to think how they want, and sure, there's plausible ideas in this expansion.
But I suggest that one must remember that when moving from the PC-98 world and the Win world of Touhou, stuff is "reset".
(Well, and the fact that real world time =\= Touhou world time)
We should remember that why this "reset" took place was because ZUN didn't want Touhou to be a knowledge based thing where there's so much characters and people who were in it from the earlier stages would have more knowledge and thus make more claims about characters and how they thought they would be. He still states this and thus doesn't care too much about character settings.
So, what I want to state is that this is only one way to think it and people are allowed to think what ever how ever about the characters when it comes to stuff in Touhou.
... I dunno, I sort of had to state this before Okashii, who's also very knowledgeable (and since it concerns Shinki too) came and argued otherwise.

Re: WMG: Alice's past
« Reply #2 on: May 18, 2010, 02:38:58 AM »
I don't see why makeup would be an issue. Makeup isn't really a "new" thing(nor is hair dye for that matter).

Hello Purvis

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Re: WMG: Alice's past
« Reply #3 on: May 18, 2010, 04:13:57 AM »
Cosmetics are probably older than civilization.

Also, I see no mention of her Romanian heritage. I am disappoint.

Re: WMG: Alice's past
« Reply #4 on: May 18, 2010, 12:44:43 PM »
when you say dolls, you mean something like these:



anyways
>> Quick Aging [She didn't age, she is a constructed Doll]

Reimu and Marisa changed outfits in EoSD as well.. ( also, Marisa herself had red hair and a sunflower broom in SoEW )

>> How she knows Reimu but she doesn't know her [Reimu wouldn't know someone who is all grown up. I'm sure it's hard to recognize them. However, since Margatroid isn't exactly Alice, of course someone would be strange that someone you never met came up to you and wanted you dead.]

only because Reimu didn't say anything about already knowing her in PCB doesn't rule out the possibility; iirc she doesn't behave that way with Yuka, as well

>> How Margatroid can move around if she is a doll [Thanks to many claims in PMiSS]

erm..
[quote http://touhou.wikia.com/wiki/Perfect_Memento:_Alice_Margatroid]She's the type of magician that was originally human and became one through training. [/quote]

(as an off-topic bonus..)

Quote
"There was a large amount of dolls flowing in the river. Wasn't that the work of a doll youkai?" (Anonymous)  /  That might be nagashi-bina(*3).
(what a hinacle, considering that PMiSS was released before MoF..)

>> Why Margatroid never uses her book after PC-98 [She can't, because it isn't real. Alice has the real one.]

you wouldn't want to ask Mima about it..

http://danbooru.donmai.us/post/show/295368/apron-barefoot-blonde_hair-feet-green_eyes-green_h
neku: now for something important.
Translations.
How much time do you guys think it will take for HM to be translated? Besides everyone's story modes and the whole menus, there's also the fact that the way HM's programmed is different from all other games. I bet it'll take two months.

lusvik: I don't mind about playing HM in japanese. The language of punching other people is international.

PeachAndAPair

  • See, it's a pun.
  • You're a Peach, but together, we're a pare~
Re: WMG: Alice's past
« Reply #5 on: May 19, 2010, 11:46:23 PM »
when you say dolls, you mean something like these:



anyways
>> Quick Aging [She didn't age, she is a constructed Doll]

Reimu and Marisa changed outfits in EoSD as well.. ( also, Marisa herself had red hair and a sunflower broom in SoEW )
I myself am not sure of why Reimu and Marisa changed, but I forget where I heard it, but PC-98 and Windows is about a year apart. if so, they changed a lot under a year >_<;;
Quote
>> How she knows Reimu but she doesn't know her [Reimu wouldn't know someone who is all grown up. I'm sure it's hard to recognize them. However, since Margatroid isn't exactly Alice, of course someone would be strange that someone you never met came up to you and wanted you dead.]

only because Reimu didn't say anything about already knowing her in PCB doesn't rule out the possibility; iirc she doesn't behave that way with Yuka, as well
I believe Reimu remembered Yuka. Which is somewhat off.  <shrug...>

Quote
>> How Margatroid can move around if she is a doll [Thanks to many claims in PMiSS]

erm..
(as an off-topic bonus..)
 (what a hinacle, considering that PMiSS was released before MoF..)

>> Why Margatroid never uses her book after PC-98 [She can't, because it isn't real. Alice has the real one.]

you wouldn't want to ask Mima about it..

http://danbooru.donmai.us/post/show/295368/apron-barefoot-blonde_hair-feet-green_eyes-green_h
For my theory to be right, Mima's ending has to be considered Canon anyways.
This is the beach, here is the bay, there is the point. Cut through the water to the point.

Re: WMG: Alice's past
« Reply #6 on: May 20, 2010, 04:15:47 AM »
>> I myself am not sure of why Reimu and Marisa changed, but I forget where I heard it, but PC-98 and Windows is about a year apart. if so, they changed a lot under a year >_<;;

Normally I'd ask for a source (about MS and EoSD being one year apart -- all I remember is that EoSD was made in 2002, and MS, in 98. Because ESP Ra.De was from 98 as well, and I can't un-imagine Shinki being a sort of Touhou's ms. Garra), since this is a rather new or really uncommon information.. Anyways, Reimu changed enough to be able to fly by herself, at the very least. Not that I'd give too much attention to how their outfit changed, especially if you think about Shuusou Gyoku's extra stage (Marisa had wings similar to Flandre's, before EoSD).. so to me, it's just ZUN fooling around again. (templates like that are forbidden :p )

>> I believe Reimu remembered Yuka. Which is somewhat off.  <shrug...>

after checking the translation for Yuka's scenario, well, I was mistaken. There was just a slight mention about Reimu having defeated Yuka once. Anyways, it seems that people have a hard time remembering Alice, so yeah..
http://touhou.wikia.com/wiki/Mystic_Square:_Reimu%27s_Extra
http://touhou.wikia.com/wiki/Mystic_Square:_Mima%27s_Extra
http://touhou.wikia.com/wiki/Mystic_Square:_Yuka%27s_Extra

>> For my theory to be right, Mima's ending has to be considered Canon anyways.

if Mima's extra stage ending is canon, that would actually help make Alice avoid using the grimoire again. Even ZUN describes Alice as being a coward, who's afraid to use all of her powers and still lose..

Quote
She had no evident reason to attack Reimu and company. They were chosen for the target of her magic because they were there. Dominating the enemy with overwhelming power is not fun at all for Alice, so she always sees her opponent's reaction and tries to fight with power that exceeds the opponent by a hair. Even if she loses, she doesn't show her full power.

That's because she thinks it would be the end of the rope for her if she lost with full power.

(also, if Mima's extra stage ending is canon.. that would mean that even Alice with her grimoire couldn't defeat Mima. Or Reimu, for that matter.)
neku: now for something important.
Translations.
How much time do you guys think it will take for HM to be translated? Besides everyone's story modes and the whole menus, there's also the fact that the way HM's programmed is different from all other games. I bet it'll take two months.

lusvik: I don't mind about playing HM in japanese. The language of punching other people is international.