Touhou Smash crowdfunding and ZUN's fancreation rules (discussion thread)

[monhan]

If you would have asked Saijee from 10 days ago, I would have said no. But I've been through so much since then, that now: I can say I am fine with doing that.

Like I keep saying: Touhou would only be an auxiliary thing for NSDS now, it's no longer and never will be a primary directive.

And yet, it's so hard for you to drop the other one, WiiU, now? Even though you've already done that a few days ago.

Still, I'm going to keep asking you. Because I am against what you're trying to do with that other game of yours.

For now, finish your discussion with Helepolis first. I will wait.

[Firestorm29]

If you would have asked Saijee from 10 days ago, I would have said no. But I've been through so much since then, that now: I can say I am fine with doing that.

Ya know, that is a dangerous path to go down. What if someone decided to hit Spheriod with a copyright claim right now? Would you give up on that, too?

[Saijee]

Trust is one thing, but belief is another.

I don't think your lying, but I don't think your correct.

[Helepolis]

Well, quite disappointing to see my posts being ignored and still noise being added. Sad but partially not surprising, after all it is a heated discussion.

I'll be observing the rest of the thread life-time as planned then make the required moderations. Until then, please stick with the topic.

--Helepolis

[Saijee]

Well, quite disappointing to see my posts being ignored and still noise being added. Sad but partially not surprising, after all it is a heated discussion.

I'll be observing the rest of the thread life-time as planned then make the required moderations. Until then, please stick with the topic.

--Helepolis

I gave you your answer Helepolis.

[Firestorm29]

I gave you your answer Helepolis.

What's so wrong about Helepolis' posts?

[monhan]

I gave you your answer Helepolis.

And where is that by the way? I must've missed it.

If you're done then I'd like to continue the talk about that other game for WiiU if you please.

[Paz legalces]

Here's the thing Saijee
Honestly, at this point whether the project is made as a Touhou game or not; or being made at all... would bear no relevant the issue of getting the copyright strike accusation done over with
Let's be perfectly fair and say that given the case of 50:50 Schrodinger's box, we have no knowing of whether the project is safe to go unless we got Zun confirmation... and you would rather not take the 50:50 risk, sure. That's PERFECTLY FAIR, it's a safe choice for you that you think is safe then you should do it
The difference here is that you take your chance of 50% (and 50% is a very generous percentage considering how much people think your assumption as wrong) being correct then go around announcing the cat is dead, Zun told a lie and go back on his words; that is the MAJOR ISSUE here
I remember you told me FSS has never once told anyone what to think of Zun or given opinion about him; people are free to taken any stance on Zun as they please, and that you group did your best to make sure that none of the information presented that was directly about ZUN had any tone about it.
But now you broadcasting your 50% chance assumption as fact around is essentially doing the exact same thing as defaming and slandering Zun's credit
One of your quote: "FSS, has not said any negative statement about ZUN, nor have we directed/encouraged any of our supporters to do so. "
here, a prime example of a screenshot posted before with your side of story alluding to Zun's going back on his word, alluding to whether which side is "being chicken"
https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,17884.msg1159535.html#msg1159535
These public actions, broadcasting your side of assumption as solid hard facts; is essentially the action that you have been repeatedly say that "You would not do"
It is PERFECTLY FAIR that you choose to interpret the strike as negative 50 and take the safe route; that's fair
It is PERFECTLY FAIR that you reject the positive 50% chance; that's fair, it's your project, we cant' force you
But what is NOT FAIR right now and should be the most pressing issue of concern right now is that you going around broadcasting this assumption of yours as something objective and causing waves of misunderstandings... and this need to be a matter that should be in focus right now
Can you say for sure what you are doing is not slanderous in nature, even if accidental?

[AchySolrock]

Saijee, please, just show us the Email(s).

It's not you we don't trust, it's your judgement under the stress of all this that we don't trust.

I can totally see not wanting this to be related to Touhou anymore over what's happened with the communication problems and such.
Which might be what's making people think your judgement is a bit off on the Emails.


Regardless of if you show us or not... Personally, I'd think it would be good if everyone took a break from this whole project. We'll be able to tackle it with fresh minds afterwards. We're all frustrated right now irrelevant of viewpoint.

[pasu]

Hey, uh, I'm kind of worried that this is off topic but, one thing I haven't seen brought up in the discussion so far is really bothering me:

is Nintendo really fine with letting someone rip off one of their game's mechanics? Pertaining to smash attacks especially, I haven't played many fighters (soku, skullgirls, smash, that's what I can remember off the top of my head) but won't Nintendo be able to file a copyright claim against your game because of that? I mean, your promo materials are even a copy of smash's. (eg reimu crosses the border)

edit: I don't know much about American/Japanese laws, but currently I'm studying copyright law of my country so this matter really got my attention

[N-Forza]

pasu: Depends, although seeing as how Capcom tried and failed to protect the format of Street Fighter 2 against the cavalcade of imitations, it seems unlikely they'd succeed.

Also, Ruw just tweeted this: https://twitter.com/Ruw/status/558857250417033216/photo/1

Anywhere in the indie side of the chart can have its origins in doujin settings like Comiket, but any derivative fan work would fall in the pure doujin side, meaning it has no place in the indie market.

This means that anyone, including FSS, could make a Touhou Smash game provided it went nowhere near anything on the left side of the chart.

[Tengukami]

This right here:

I am still firmly of the belief that FSS is essentially been banned from Touhou by TSA. And that's how I'm looking at it so far. Nothing that anyone says is going to be able to change that belief unless ZUN makes a tweet pardoning FSS, or TSA gives us an email that we are allowed to publish that states we can do it.

is why anyone trying to reason with and present evidence to Saijee is wasting their time. This is why Drake's clear and thoughtful suggestion on how to get this sorted was willfully ignored. This is why this tedious derail of Saijee believing misunderstanding = lying happened. And this is why he's not budging on the passive-aggressive name Doujin Spirit, which he has likened to having the "the inclusiveness of Fight Club".

Because despite all your best efforts and intentions, the quote above pretty much says it all.

[N-Forza]

I wasn't necessarily trying to convince him, I was posting for the benefit of others as well who might possibly be confused as to the difference.

[Flandre5carlet]

pasu: Depends, although seeing as how Capcom tried and failed to protect the format of Street Fighter 2 against the cavalcade of imitations, it seems unlikely they'd succeed.

Also, Ruw just tweeted this: https://twitter.com/Ruw/status/558857250417033216/photo/1

Anywhere in the indie side of the chart can have its origins in doujin settings like Comiket, but any derivative fan work would fall in the pure doujin side, meaning it has no place in the indie market.

This means that anyone, including FSS, could make a Touhou Smash game provided it went nowhere near anything on the left side of the chart.

Very informative graph. Thanks for sharing it, didn't see it on Twitter.

[Tengukami]

I wasn't necessarily trying to convince him, I was posting for the benefit of others as well who might possibly be confused as to the difference.

And I'm glad you did! This should help others who want to make their own Touhou fangames a great deal.

[Suspicious person]

Goodness, we're getting nowhere!

@Saijee, let's get things straight : Did TSA / ZUN address the complaint DIRECTLY to you or not?
I am asking this question in the off-chance where you misunderstood IGG's notice as a complaint from TSA / ZUN himself : ONLY the campaign was illegal, not the game. There is no reason why ZUN / TSA would ban the whole game because of the campaign especially if it's possible to only shut down the crowdfunding part and nothing else. An answer to this question can make clear whether you've misunderstood something or not and whether you are allowed to make a Touhou game or not. This status quo can only be broken by a decisive and accurate answer from your part.

Please answer : Yes or No? Plain and simple, straightforwardly, no "We thought", no rhetorics, no videos. Just yes or no.
Or take Drake's suggestion.

This might sound cold, but we're not discussing about how your game, presumably non-Touhou, should be : this is RaNGE, and we're currently discussing about how and why you can still make this a Touhou game : if you're unwilling to change your position, just say so and the discussion is over. Let's stop wasting time.

Edit : About Paz's concerns... he meant that your statement in the last video can seriously damage the image of the Japanese fan community, or at the very least lead your followers to think of them and ZUN in a very, very negative way. In the video, your statement about not representing the whole of the western Touhou fans was OK for WTC's reputation, but your passive-aggressive stance there IS NOT : consider calming your followers and explaining them the problem you ran into impartially : no need to start of a flame wars, even if its only just embers. If you just leave like this, you might keep a few fans, but note that FSS's reputation in the east'll be pretty much toast : you DON'T want to start your career with a hatedom. Be responsible, it's also for your own sake.
@Paz legalces : With the comprehensive people trying to explain things in YT and FB regarding this, I won't expect the few anti-ZUNs to keep going for more than a month. The other issue regarding reputation would be pretty much a loss of a huge deal of credibility when it comes to gaijin works in general. I hope there won't be any serious sequel because of this...

[Colticide]

Hey, uh, I'm kind of worried that this is off topic but, one thing I haven't seen brought up in the discussion so far is really bothering me:

is Nintendo really fine with letting someone rip off one of their game's mechanics? Pertaining to smash attacks especially, I haven't played many fighters (soku, skullgirls, smash, that's what I can remember off the top of my head) but won't Nintendo be able to file a copyright claim against your game because of that? I mean, your promo materials are even a copy of smash's. (eg reimu crosses the border)

edit: I don't know much about American/Japanese laws, but currently I'm studying copyright law of my country so this matter really got my attention

I had explained this issue earlier but was drowned out by the flood of comments, Gameplay can't be copyright (As N-Forza and I had said, companies have tried), the issues being the the story, characters, if these are too similar then you have a case of infringement, if they are completely different then it's fine. If gameplay were an issue we would just have Mario for platformers, Gears of war would be the only cover based shooter, ect. ect.

I don't care if this is Touhou or not anymore, I'm past that, my current issue is with NDS as a name, and as a concept. What I don't like is how my comments get brushed aside like I don't know anything or get ignored, which seems to be a common thing around here... Why is it hard for you to understand why using Doujin Spirit in the title for a WiiU game can be considered a bad idea? Why is it hard for you to understand why you shouldn't be teaching people what doujin spirit is?

[Bio]

http://www.copyright.gov/fls/fl108.html

Copyright does not protect the idea for a game, its name or title, or the method or methods for playing it. Nor does copyright protect any idea, system, method, device, or trademark material involved in developing, merchandising, or playing a game. Once a game has been made public, nothing in the copyright law prevents others from developing another game based on similar principles. Copyright protects only the particular manner of an author’s expression in literary, artistic, or musical form.

In saying this, the promo material style may be copyrighted, though this is hardly a big issue.
Source code is protected however too.

[Helepolis]

Moderation note

It is impossible for me to find a proper point in time to lock this though as I said previous, the thread is done and therefore it is time to move. I can't please everyone to let them have their final word, so apologies for ending this.

Aside from the actual incident, there is lots of useful information provided in this thread. The information shall be elicited and transformed into a new thread which will also function as discussion thread. The discussion is highly experimental and it is depending on the community how they handle it. If by any chance I witness nasty things then the discussion shall be terminated. More to follow about that.

No posts in this thread will be edited or deleted or split. The thread will remain as it is.


I wish to thank you everyone, translators, special guests, foreign guests, and our members for their patience, opinions, arguments and time. Aside from a few people we had to firmly warn about their behaviour, it has been all acceptable.

Saijee & his brothers can decide what they want to do with their game and dev thread. Friendly warning that under no condition the discussion should be continued at the Dev thread. If I see posts addressing the FSS IGG incident over there they will be removed. I am not applying special treatment, like with other threads: we desire no further drama.

Saijee's dev thread will remain open even if they have abandoned the theme. Natural flow of the forum will decide it's existence. Do not commit necrobumping as with other fan games here. Saijee himself is free to update his thread with news or not but logically we will treat it like any other thread according to RikaNitori.

Once more, thank you.

If there are inquiries, please PM me.

[Helepolis]

Moderation announcement

https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,17915.0.html will now function as a general discussion thread for concerns, confusions or questions about ZUN's guidelines and Doujin discpline.

The information in the thread is incomplete but the basics are in. Remember that in the background I'm discussing things with various people and exchanging data about ZUN's guidelines. It seems we're missing lots of vital information. So make sure to keep an eye on the first 3 posts.

Thank you for your patience.

--Helepolis