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The Stranger looked down at the grave where he had just buried another body.
Digging those holes, placing people in them, filling them.
It had become a daily occurrence.
"Damn those foul beasts.", he cursed.
When he had arrived, the village had been quiet and peaceful.
And then, the Werewolves had appeared.
Noone could say how it started anymore.
First there was one death, then two, then three, always at night.
Fear and paranoia had spread through the village, and the Villagers had begun suspecting each other of being cursed.
Those that were thought to be one of the Wolves were publicly executed.
But more often than not, only the bodies of innocents could be seen hanging from the big tree in the middle of the village.
The Stranger walked back to the village square and took a look around.
A small group of people was gathered there.
"Only thirteen left..."
If this village was to have any future, they would need to find the Werewolves hiding amongst them right now.
He grinned.
Werewolves or Villagers?
Who would remain, who would perish?
The hunt was on....
Rules (courtesy of Serp)
1. Day phases will be limited to 72 hours (Except D1 which is 48 hours). Night phases will last 24 hours. There will also be two versions of LyLo-phases:
On Pseudo-LyLo days, role effects may either end the game or allow the town to survive into the next day, and these days will last 120 hours.
On True LyLo days, the town absolutely must lynch scum to have any chance of victory, and these days have no time limit.
Phases start as soon as the mod announces them. Phases end at the appropriate time, regardless of whether the mod is there to announce it. Votes placed after the end of the phase are not counted. Night actions sent after the end of the phase are not guaranteed to be counted.
2. A 24-hour extension to a day phase may be granted by a majority vote to extend by living players. A 24-hour extension to a night phase may be granted by appeal to the mod. The game may be put on hold depending on outside circumstances.
3. Don't edit or delete your posts. Don't post quotes of mod correspondence. Don't attempt to gather or give unquestionable information by way of role PM wording. Exploits against the spirit of the game will be considered cheating. Also, don't change your usernames after D1 has started, to avoid confusion.
4. Votes are placed with the syntax ##Vote [Player]. A player must ##Unvote before a new vote can be counted. The day will end with the lynch when one player has a majority of the votes of living players. If the time limit is reached before a single player has the majority, the player with the most votes will be lynched. If the event of a tie, the Lieutenant will be the decisive force. See below for details.
5. Dead players should post no more than once after their deaths as a "Bah" post, and that one post may not be used to influence the outcome of the game.
6. Except where explicitly stated elsewhere in a player's role PM, all communication regarding the game should be kept purely to the public game thread. Private messages and IRC conversations about the game while it is in progress are forbidden.
7. A player who has not posted in the public game thread for 24 hours may be prodded by the mod. A player who goes for 24 hours without posting in the game thread after being prodded will be modkilled. Note that private messages to the mod will not count in lieu of posts in the game thread.
8. Players who are unable to continue playing the game may be replaced either by mod decision or by their own request. If a replacement cannot be found for 24 hours after the announcement, the player will be modkilled instead.
9. Rule violations will be punished by modkill. If a Villager is modkilled, the Village will lose one lynch opportunity. If a mafioso is modkilled during the day, that day will be extended to 72 hours after the time of the modkill, and if a mafioso is modkilled during the night, the game will otherwise continue as normal. Violations by dead players may still be punished by loss of a lynch or a night kill by the offending player's team.
10. The mod reserves the right to change any rules and make any ad hoc judgments against the rules, depending on the circumstances. Disruptive and hostile behavior, in particular, won't be tolerated regardless of any technical rule violations. If you are an ass, the mod reserves the right to fuck you.
11. The most important rule: Have fun~
----------------------------
Special Rule: The Lieutenant
One player will have the status of being the village's Lieutenant. If at the end of a day votes are tied between two players, the Lieutenant's vote is doubled and the player he is voting for will be lynched. Should the Lieutenant not be voting for one of the tied players, he has to change his vote to one of them and decide their fate.
When the Lieutenant dies, he will pass on his badge to a player of his choice. This player may not decline the honor of becoming the next Lieutenant.
To avoid delays, the Lieutenant should try to decide on whom to pass the badge to while still being alive, and not only once he dies.
If the Lieutnant has passed a decision to the mods, he is still allowed to change it until the real passing on occurrs.
The first Lieutenant in the game is: Affinity
To make it easier to keep track of the badge, the Lieutenant will be marked on the player-list below.
-----------------------------
Village Population:
1) NeoSerela Village Healer, lynched D3
2) Choja Vanilla Villager, lynched D2
3) Chaore Wolf in sheep's clothing
4) UncertainKitten Village Witch, lynched D4
5) Nobu replaced D3 by Yamaneko no Naku Roda ni Vanilla Villager, died N3
6) Bardiche Vanilla Villager
7) Kilgamayan Village Seer, died N2
8) Huh what Vanilla Villager, lynched D1
9) Kefit Alpha Werewolf Shaman
10) Polaris Village Hunter, modkilled D2
11) Prody Amor, modkilled D1
12) Affinity - Lieutenant Village Old Man
13) Zakeri Vanilla Werewolf, died N1
Convenient links:
End of D1 (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,7063.msg436620.html#msg436620)
Start of D2 (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,7063.msg437483.html#msg437483)
End of D2 (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,7063.msg440091.html#msg440091)
Start of D3 (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,7063.msg440874.html#msg440874)
End of D3 (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,7063.msg443486.html#msg443486)
Start of D4 (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,7063.msg444164.html#msg444164)
End of D4 (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,7063.msg446575.html#msg446575)
End of N4 - GAME OVER (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,7063.msg446582.html#msg446582)
-
Role PMs will be sent out right now. Please confirm in-thread. Do not take any actions yet besided confirming.
Once all players have confirmed, Day 1 will start.
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This is gonna bug the shit out of me all game if I don't say anything right now: it's lieutenant, not leutenant. >_>
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Also, confirmed.
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I'm around.
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Also, is there a reason why this isn't pinned? I find it more convenient than looking through a bunch of text adventures to find the thread :x
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This is gonna bug the shit out of me all game if I don't say anything right now: it's lieutenant, not leutenant. >_>
Corrected :derp:
Edit: No wait, it's still wrong. Correcting once more.
Also, is there a reason why this isn't pinned? I find it more convenient than looking through a bunch of text adventures to find the thread :x
Because you were checking this thread so fast you saw it before I could click the sticky-button. :V
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No more anonymafia, ohnoez :ohdear:
Confirmed.
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confirmed
-
confirm
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Firmdecon.
Or Confirmed if you MUST.
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11. The most important rule: Have fun~
:ohdear:
/confirm
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/confirmed. Leutenant sounds like some fantasy anime chaos emerald like thing.
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Reporting for duty.
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UK has no internet access today. She'll be confirming tomorrow.
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UK has no internet access today. She'll be confirming tomorrow.
Got it, so right now we have 9/13 confirmed by my count.
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I'm assuming that includes UK, since Kefit, Polaris and Zakeri are the only other missing ones by my count. :V
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I'm assuming that includes UK, since Kefit, Polaris and Zakeri are the only other missing ones by my count. :V
I should have said 9,5. I took UK as confirmed due to your words, but didn't count her in yet because of (justified) lack of post :V
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Finally Got the internet working.
/confirm
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<Kilgamyon> Kefit go confirm
<Kilgamyon> Kefit you need to confirm in Mafia
<Kilgamyon> Kefit have you confirmed yet?????
<Kilgamyon> c'mon gogogogo
<Kefit> SORRY KILGA I WAS BUSY DEALING WITH A FRIEND'S BBQ
<Kefit> I'LL DO IT NOW
<Kilgamyon> WELL HRRY THE FUCK UP THEN I WANT NONE OF YOUR SILLY EXCUSES MISTER
<Kefit> WELL YOU GOT A SILLY EXCUSE
<Kefit> AND LET ME TELL YOU IT WAS TOTALLY WORTH IT
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Right, that makes only Polaris missing so far. D1 will be announced to start once I wake up, regardless of whether he has confirmed till then or not. Don't wanna drag this out too long after all :3
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Back from school, so confirming. :derp:
also holy shoot communication breakdance was totally awesome :o
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also holy shoot communication breakdance was totally awesome :o
Man, please don't tempt me to post links here. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3NE7-dWdxb8)
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The sun rises above the village, and everyone gathers near the big tree.
Someone will hang there today, and it's time to decide who it will be.
It is now DAY 1
You have 48 hours to decide on a lynch.
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##Vote: UncertainKitten
LAL
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##Vote: Affinity
Clearly claiming a role such as your mysterious LIEUTENANT, A role which only is provable in the unlikely event of a tie, on Day 1, Is an outright lie, meaning your true role is clearly SCUM MASTERMIND.
You are being watched, Affinity! Watched...-carefully-.
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##Vote: Chaore
Three lines of text in a post is always scum. Always.
At least, I think that's how it goes. :/
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##Vote: Polaris
Trying to get me to forget the start of the game by tricking me into reading a past mafia game I hosted.
Also, Nobu, that's just Silly.
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##Unvote: UncertainKitten
##Vote: Kefit
Active on IRC and not posting! LAL!
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@ Mod: Somewhat curious. Is the leuitentasntkjadsnkajhsd (WORDS ARE HARD) a role in itself, or is it randomly given out at the beginning of the game, meaning scum could possibly end up as the first lieutenant? I dunno if this is answerable without giving away too much information, but it's worth a shot since it'd be good to know, anyway.
Also ##Vote Chaore
Obviously fakeclaiming watcher.
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I think it's reasonable to assume the lieutenant was assigned independently of alignment.
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I think it's reasonable to assume the lieutenant was assigned independently of alignment.
Indeed. Lieutnant was given out at random before alignments or roles were assigned.
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Huhwhat didn't jokevote Choja?! How very strange!
##Vote:Huhwhat obvscum
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Jokevotes, hurr. Putting an end to that right here.
##VOTE: Kilgamayan
Wishywashiness doesn't serve town at all. Stop being wishywashy and stick to your convictions.
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##Unvote: Kefit
##Vote: Bardiche omgus
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Current Votecount:
( I don't care if it's only seven hours into D1, I want to practice making votecounts :V )
Uncertainkitten ( 0 ): Kilgamayan
Affinity ( 1 ): Chaore
Chaore ( 2 ): Nobu, Huh what
Polaris ( 1 ): Zakeri
Kefit ( 0 ): Kilgamayan
Huh what ( 1 ): NeoSerela
Kilgamayan ( 1 ): Bardiche
Bardiche ( 1 ): Kilgamayan
With 13 alive it takes 7 to lynch. Still a lot of time left.
Not voting: Polaris, UncertainKitten, Kefit, Affinity, Prody, Nat Tea
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##Unvote: Kefit
##Vote: Bardiche omgus
Need I more evidence to vote Kilga? Wishywashiness and OMGUS. No, recognising this terrible reason for voting me as being what it is doesn't make it right.
I honestly can see no compelling case for anyone but Kilgamayan at this point and urge people to follow my lead. Vote Kilga for a bright and verdant future.
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##Vote Sakana
I'm not sure you all realize this, but he KNOWS WHO THE WOLVES ARE.
You know what's worse? He's NOT TELLING US!
You know who ELSE knows who the wolves are but refuse to tell us about them? WOLVES, THAT'S RIGHT!!!!
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holyshit UK has touched my heart and i have seen the light
##Unvote: Affinity
AND YOU KNOW WHO ELSE TOUCH PEOPLE? THAT'S RIGHT, WOLVES.
##Vote: UncertainKitten
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##Vote: UncertainKitten
Because Akagi told me to.
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Heehee, yes, yes, quite beautiful! This will be valuable information later ^-^.
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There is nothing hilarious about being eaten by a wolf and I would appreciate it if people approached this matter with the serious attitude it deserves.
There will be no jokes in my Mafia. This is srs Mafia and I expect srs votes so get those srs faces on.
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I'm as serious as I can get, buddy. This is my final vote and I won't be changing it probably.
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##UNVOTE: Kilgamayan
##VOTE: Prody
Then, of course, you wouldn't mind elaborating on your vote, the reasons behind it and why you are unlikely to move it, amiright?
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UK took a more neutral position by voting for the GAME HOST jokingly. Scum usually have no fear of dying except when they're lynched, hence they tend to have a unserious personality. In a standard game, the town is generally more serious on their actions unless they have some sort of super weapon or defense against scum.
But matters here aren't that simple though...it's bound to be very complicated.
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Eh, just gonna use the meta shield. I (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,5787.msg317284.html#msg317284) ALW (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,5682.msg308715.html#msg308715)AYS (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,5665.msg306450.html#msg306450) vote (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,4654.msg220980.html#msg220980) the (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,3346.msg141930.html#msg141930) mod (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,3088.msg128152.html#msg128152). ALWAYS! (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/FinishingMove)
(Yes, I'm aware I'm voting the BACK UP mod in the 'the' link. So sue me.)
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##Unvote: Polaris
Kilgamayan has made two votes now. The first vote is forgivable, but in his second vote he used "Lynch all Lurkers" as justification. Considering how early in the game the second vote was made, Lurking is not something a townie can even discern then.
##Vote: Kilgamayan
Also, for all it's worth, UK Didn't make a post between your first and second vote. Why did you feel Kefit was a more pressing vote then?
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Actually, Kilga has made three votes.
I was under the impression none of them were sincere, though. Aren't you taking this a bit overly seriously?
Speaking of jokevotes, Chaore's switch to UK had little purpose beyond slightly increasing the length of the rvs and therefore making us take longer to get to discussion. Keeping my vote on him, if only because everything that has happened so far is uninteresting and there aren't any better-sounding reasons to go after people. Yeah.
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Still not changing vote unless someone convinces me otherwise.
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Eh, just gonna use the meta shield. I (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,5787.msg317284.html#msg317284) ALW (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,5682.msg308715.html#msg308715)AYS (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,5665.msg306450.html#msg306450) vote (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,4654.msg220980.html#msg220980) the (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,3346.msg141930.html#msg141930) mod (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,3088.msg128152.html#msg128152). ALWAYS! (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/FinishingMove)
NOT ALWAYS. (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,6785.msg401778.html#msg401778) Also, you linked TvTropes without proper warning, which is obviously a scummy tactic since it provides distractions to Town. Looks like D1 is in the bag (or box, in this case.)
##Unvote
##Vote: UncertainKitten
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Actually, Kilga has made three votes.
I was under the impression none of them were sincere, though. Aren't you taking this a bit overly seriously?
Right, though an OMGUS doesn't really lessen my stance.
And we have to start getting serious, soon.
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Anonymafia hardly counts. That was Shoe, not UncertainKitten :P.
As for more meta shielding, see Unesco in...uh...some game where me and Pesco had a hydra and we linked TVTropes in every post :P.
But, keep the votes coming, maybe we'll have a good wagon like last time that wraps up the scum easy like :P.
But, hey, glad to see your keeping up your meta of being wrong, Nobu :P.
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...I use the ":P" emoticon FAR too much. I didn't even realize I used it four times in that post til after it was posted ^-^;.
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Hmm...how do you propose to get "serious soon", Zak? And why aren't you leading the charge?
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But, hey, glad to see your keeping up your meta of being wrong, Nobu :P.
Law of averages. I'll be right sooner or later. 8)
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Law of averages. I'll be right sooner or later. 8)
Maybe this post is one of the times you're wrong. :V
Also, uh. Is your vote on UK even serious? I can't tell.
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Good show Nobu! This'll be fun!
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Voting for a hole in a joke defense and for linking TVTropes, and you're asking me if its serious? :V
Also, I have yet to figure out how good, serious cases can come out of a bunch of random voting and goofing off. ???
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Hmm...how do you propose to get "serious soon", Zak? And why aren't you leading the charge?
I Propose we "Get serious soon" By making serious cases and expecting serious responses to those cases. The Reason I'm not "Leading the Charge" is because Kilgamayan has yet to form a response to the case, and because there are other cases that I'm not currently interested in - Like the one on you - that are making more progress at the moment.
On that subject, do you have anything to contribute besides threats of self-bandwagon analysis?
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Nope! No one's bothered displaying their alignment's intent to a level where I can see it. I'm not umu, I can't find scum on page 2 :P.
But I'm also not being all like "Hey, guys, we need to get serious soon...no, don't look at me for that, Iunno!"
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Also, I have yet to figure out how good, serious cases can come out of a bunch of random voting and goofing off. ???
Then why are you instead contributing to the randomvoting and goofing off :s
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...Okay, remove the "instead" from that post. It makes it confusing. :x
But I'm basically asking why he's goofing off he he doesn't see how anything serious can come of it.
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Because it's better than lurking by a longshot?
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Not entirely, since you're filling up the thread with chaff (possibly the wrong word?) this way, which becomes somewhat intrusive (also possibly the wrong word? WORDS ARE HARD).
To clarify, I'm not actually against goofing off at the start of the thread, but things were beginning to get somewhat srs and it seems awkward to goof off in the middle of that.
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UK took a more neutral position by voting for the GAME HOST jokingly. Scum usually have no fear of dying except when they're lynched, hence they tend to have a unserious personality. In a standard game, the town is generally more serious on their actions unless they have some sort of super weapon or defense against scum.
But matters here aren't that simple though...it's bound to be very complicated.
To me, this reads as such:
WIFOM
I've never been in the habit of supporting WIFOM. If you can be so sure of a vote, I'd like to see solid reasoning and you, sir, have just provided the worst reasoning possible. Yes, ED1, but perhaps you shouldn't proclaim that you will likely not move your vote again! Perhaps you can try again and provide a suitable explanation for your brazen actions.
RE: Jokevotes. I've made no jokevote thus far. Kilgamayan's hopping around and wishywashiness does not serve town, and his OMGUS does not do so either. He is my second candidate for a vote, except the WIFOM crap takes precedence right now.
Those who persist in their hilarity, quit it, it's scumhunting time and we've got plenty on the table right now.
RE: UK. Don't see a sufficient case on her as of now. Only strike against her is the trolling but she does this regardless of team. She does have a good point with Zakeri. If you declare SRS BSNS to start, be SRS BSNS about it and START IT.
RE: goof off lol. No, guys, no. Vote 'em if they lurk or smokescreen, but the definition of goofing off is irrelevant.
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HW mostly has the right of it, and it does make reading D1 later game more painful, but I guess I feel it's still within the acceptable "Don't forget this is a game, guys" zone. Different strokes I suppose.
Ah, Bard cut: You may consider me suspect for it but I don't plan to really engage strongly til I see a good reason to. I will, however, duly inform you when that time comes. And of course, post replies to anything I feel needs replying to.
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Can I ask why everyone's gotten the impression that I'm not doing anything serious?
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Oh, your case on Kilga is srs. In that case ignore anything I've said on the matter - it just came off as half-hearted if you drop the comment to "let's get srs" without adding any serious-related activity.
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..I... why are you and Zak taking Kilga's votes at all seriously, Bard? :/
It may be my UNTRAINED MAFIA EYE, But it seems he was just. You know, joke voting in RVS like people freaking do?
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Because it's how you start a damn D1. You look at something in the jokevotes and vote it. He's jumping around with his jokevotes, ergo he is wishywashy. Called on it he OMGUS's me with a vote back. Very hilarious but no, denied, not funny and leaps and bounds over everything else so far except, of course, captain WIFOM who presently has my vote.
Thumb twiddling that "oh there's nothing to vote on!" is stalling the game and town is merited by DECISIVE VOTING!! and getting out of the jokevote phase.
Which you do by, you know, putting serious votes down and bugger all if you can quantify it at first, the important part is to get srs bsns talk going.
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Bard got it mostly. From my point of view we need somewhere to start. Kilgamayan's behavior is suspicious enough to be that somewhere.
It does no one any good to just sit there and wait for someone else to make a case. Time isn't what makes a good case. Content is, and you can only get content by making cases. The Idea of jokevoting and the RVS is nothing more than a flanderization of the fact that you have to make cases based on no content before you can get enough content to make a good case.
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To be clear I'm not waiting for someone else's case, I'm waiting for scum intent to manifest.
-
Lurking to snipe others is scummy intent. Declaring you're doing it doesn't excuse doing it. Hunt scum actively, don't go sitting waiting so you can snipe on someone's mistakes.
It's a good way to keep low profile and do absolutely nothing while excusing it. Get moving and scumhunting or I'll be voting.
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Go ahead and vote. I'm not "sniping", I'm just not letting myself get wrapped up in a clusterfuck of stupid ED1 because someone said the word "it" in a funny way.
You seem to assume I'm going to capitalize on someone doing something silly, not scummy. I do not plan to operate in such a manner. Further, I'm far from planning to lurk. If you read my post you'd know I plan to reply to what needs replying to. Let me add to that that I will ask questions where I feel questions need to be asked, and get a more complete picture of what motivates the other players.
If you're still dissatisfied when alls said and done, so be it. I'm not amazingly worried, to be honest.
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Back from school and I have no idea what's going on (http://i50.tinypic.com/14uw57s.png). :derp:
nah that's an overstatement, since it looks like we're trying to get serious so I'm glad that school got me past the lame randomvoting :B
Not sure what to think about Kilga. Lame vote reasons etc can be easily passed off as jokevoting, so I don't see any reason to vote him so far.
On the other hand, Prody's reasons are lame too but he's maintaining that his vote was serious. ??? "UK is not being serious therefore she is scum" is incredibly lame, especially in early-early Day 1, where everyone else was pretty much equally not serious.
ackpth I'm pretty much just repeating Bard's comments, that's totally lame. Voting anyway.
##Vote: Prody
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Just reread Prody's post, I'd like to ask something about the latter half of it.
In a standard game, the town is generally more serious on their actions unless they have some sort of super weapon or defense against scum.
What makes you so sure this isn't the case for UK? If you're going to bring up WIFOM you might as well explain why you're assuming one possibility is correct over the other, if you even have a reason for doing so beyond trying to place a vote down somewhere.
##Unvote, ##Vote Prody for now. Don't have anything else to add, unfortunately. Though him bringing up the possibility of a townie superweapon (which didn't really need to be brought up) sounds a bit like scum paranoid about roles to me, but that's just my gut so.
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/me sighs
Prody is a newb town derpass. The wagon on him is starting to weary me. I guess you can keep on him if you REALLY want to but I don't think it'll end well.
Considering it's early D1, I can't really fault you for dropping your vote where you can, and wagons are good, but I figure it's time to register my own opinion on the matter.
Huh what actually bugs me slightly with his post. I can't quite put my finger on it at this time though. I have a vague idea but need more data to corrobate it. For the time being I suspect HW more than most of the active posters...
Ah, hell, as such I should be voting him.
##Unvote, ##Vote Huh What
Going to call slight scum intent on piling on Prody and what I feel is a somewhat odd response to the second part of Prody's accusation.
To be honest, that latter is what's giving me bad vibes, but I'm not sure what precisely it is right now. I wanna say buddying but that doesn't QUITE resonate for me.
Meh, fuck it, if HW is scum he'll show more scum intent, and if he's town I'll figure it out eventually.
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EBWOP: I mean derpass in the kindest way possible, Prody <3!
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To be honest, that latter is what's giving me bad vibes, but I'm not sure what precisely it is right now. I wanna say buddying but that doesn't QUITE resonate for me.
Not quite sure what you mean by this :x
I'm not completely sold on Prody being scum over just a derp, but honestly, I'd rather have my vote on somebody I think looks moderately suspicious. It's not like I jumped off of somebody I had a super good case on to vote him, and by placing my vote on Prody he's a bit more obligated to correctly answer me as far as I'm aware, so.
Also, curious. What about Prody makes you so sure he's a derptown rather than a derpscum at this point?
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Way he handled things. I'm not completely sure on that derptown read, but between the wagon and the fact that he reads like he's...trying, I guess? I'm willing to stake a claim that he's more likely town.
As for your vote, I don't necessarily agree with that, but something about how you asked him about the super weapon thing rings weird.
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Zakeri: I jumped around so much because I wanted to help Sakana practice making vote counts.
Unimpressed with case on Prody, his play is too easily chalked up to combination of new + ED1. Bard's case on UK is slightly better even if it's based on playstyle (or perhaps because it's based on playstyle?) but I use "better" in the same way a four-alarm fire is better than a five-alarm fire.
##Unvote: Bard
##Vote: huh what
Not a fan of the way he tried to pick at Nobu for silly things (end of RVS does not mean end of senses of humor) and then dragged Nobu into a useless argument while simultaneously criticizing Nobu for chaff. Good enough case for this stage.
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Bard's case on UK is slightly better even if it's based on playstyle (or perhaps because it's based on playstyle?) but I use "better" in the same way a four-alarm fire is better than a five-alarm fire.
... Wait, what?
Where did Bard have a case on UK? Actually, where did anybody other than Prody have a case on UK? (I'm not counting Nobu's vote since he said it was a joke, so.)
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...oh, I totally thought Prody had been in previous mafias too, which is why I had put him in a higher standard. :ohdear: Must be because of his participation in the Idiot Challenges.
But I'll keep my vote on him at least until he responds. =/
also lol at UK voting HW when he was third on the Prody wagon
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HW: This. (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,7063.msg435066.html#msg435066) It doesn't have a vote attached but I felt it was worth discussing nonetheless.
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VOTE COUNT
UncertainKitten ( 3 ): Chaore, Prody, Nobu, Kilgamayan
Prody ( 3 ): Bardiche, Polaris, huh what
huh what ( 3 ): NeoSerela, UncertainKitten, Kilgamayan
Kilgamayan ( 1 ): Zakeri, Bardiche
Bardiche ( 0 ): Kilgamayan
Chaore ( 0 ): huh what, Nobu
Polaris ( 0 ): Zakeri
Affinity ( 0 ): Chaore
Kefit ( 0 ): Kilgamayan
Not Voting: Choja, Kefit, Affinity
With 13 votes in play, 7 votes are required to hammer. Approximately 25 hours are left in the day.
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UncertainKitten ( 3 ): Chaore, Prody, Nobu
Prody ( 3 ): Bardiche, Polaris, huh what
huh what ( 3 ): NeoSerela, UncertainKitten, Kilgamayan
Fucking YES!
We'll wanna untangle this soon but this is a really good start!
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Hmm, gotta head to bed now. I'll be interested to see what tomorrow morning brings ^-^.
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Bedtime too. I'll see you tomorrow afternoon after school :derp:
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Alright, looks like things have kicked into gear.
##Unvote
Of the current cases thus far, I'm leery of Prody but equally leery of the noob vibe of his actions. This might change the longer he spends lurking, but right now i'm feeling a bit more strongly about Kilga's case on huhwhat. Also, for his post (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,7063.msg434931.html#msg434931) where he simultaneously criticizes Chaore for increasing the length of RVS at the same time he chides Zak for taking things too seriously. For the sake of DECISIVE VOTING! I won't hold back.
##Vote: huh what
Also, we could use a few prods could't we?
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I have no objections against any votes against me.
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Prody: Do you care to at least, you know, respond to the voteposts that contained questions? <_<
Also, for his post where he simultaneously criticizes Chaore for increasing the length of RVS at the same time he chides Zak for taking things too seriously.
Uhhh, I'm pretty sure the context of what I was criticizing was different for both of those. (Probably wrong wording here, but w/e.)
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.....the hell kind of response is that, Prody?
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This is my first experience with Mafia so I have no clue about the abbreviations you are all using.
I based my vote from the very beginning when UK was more of "wanting to live" rather than "defending himself".
It seems things have gotten more serious when I went off to sleep. My vote will stand as it is, but I will change as I see fit to the circumstances.
To be honest, town is likely to benefit over my death.
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Ah, it's been a while since I last played this game. Let's see what I can come up with~
Prody is striking me as super duper derp town. First time player, poorly thought out votes, little in the way of responses to questions and arguments of others, and even supporting his own lynch (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,7063.msg435551.html#msg435551). The fact that the train against Prody sits at only three votes gives me some hope that MotK town has actually learned a thing or two while I was off in the world of the bar exam. Like cases of derp play I have seen in the past, the case against Prody will be worth revisiting in the future. But not today.
Of the voters currently on Prody, huh what looks by far the worst. This thread is full of short, low/no content posts from him, and I really don't like the way he placed a vote on Prody simply to prod a response from him (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,7063.msg435315.html#msg435315). This allows him to place a vote without actually needing to have a real reason behind it! Of course, he tries to support the vote by stating that he can't be sure if Prody is derptown or derpscum. But as I said above, Prody's derp and newbness means that his play today is a null tell, and the case against him should only be raised later on. I expect enough from huh what as a player that he should know this.
Oh, and to make matters worse, huh what is the third vote on Prody, which is the perfect place for a scum to sneak on to a potential train unnoticed.
#Vote: huh what. This places huh what at L-2.
Don't have much of a read yet on other players, but here's some food for thought:
- Nobu is bugging me a bit with the lack of content here (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,7063.msg435546.html#msg435546) and here (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,7063.msg434987.html#msg434987), but his vote for huh what makes me feel a bit better about him for the time being.
- UK is talking a lot without saying much, but she's placed a vote and I really like her avatar so she gets a pass for now.
- Polaris' post here (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,7063.msg435344.html#msg435344) indicates that he no longer feels good about his vote on Prody, but he declines to actually change his vote. This doesn't look good, but I like the case on huh what more for right now.
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Town is likely to benefit over your death uh what? Are you claiming 3P or something? Dude, what th-- look, I know Mafiers is difficult but you've got to play along here. Like I said last time (Derp :V), Town wants to live, Town must play to survive AND WIN and NEVER GIVE UP, NEVER SURRENDER, NEVER LET UUS DOOOWN, AND DESEEERT UUUUUUUS!
That said, I can see the case against Huh What and on review there's a good point, but I'm not too hot on putting him at L-1. Keeping my vote here for now while I look where I can better place my vote. And when I get confirmation that damnit, Prody, you may be new but that doesn't mean you should be lynched! What's with newbies always thinking they should be eliminated from play as soon as possible? It's like you don't want to play.
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This is my first experience with Mafia so I have no clue about the abbreviations you are all using.
I based my vote from the very beginning when UK was more of "wanting to live" rather than "defending herself".
It seems things have gotten more serious when I went off to sleep. My vote will stand as it is, but I will change as I see fit to the circumstances.
To be honest, town is likely to benefit over my death.
...really? Really? You're giving up cause you got a few votes on you?
No. You aren't allowed. Post content. Now.
Bard cut: Well, no, town must play to survive the LYNCH and win. Getting NK'd is fucking AWESOME for townies. Well, more vanilla townies, but still, being NK'd is perfectly acceptable :P.
That said, I'll point out we have about 15 hours left in the day (If I'm counting right. And we all know how GREAT I am at counting hours. That is to say I suck at it. Badly.)
L-1 still isn't a lynch. Anyone hammering too soon will certainly be put under heavy fire. It feels like you're trying to start a counterwagon, to be honest. Granted, I'm not too STRONG in this belief since apparently everyone is scared of L-1, but still, it's something to note.
Admittedly, the way the HW wagon is growing unopposed bugs me, but so far the reasoning on attacking him is not too contrived.
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Town is likely to benefit over your death uh what? Are you claiming 3P or something? Dude, what th-- look, I know Mafiers is difficult but you've got to play along here. Like I said last time (Derp :V), Town wants to live, Town must play to survive AND WIN and NEVER GIVE UP, NEVER SURRENDER, NEVER LET UUS DOOOWN, AND DESEEERT UUUUUUUS!
That said, I can see the case against Huh What and on review there's a good point, but I'm not too hot on putting him at L-1. Keeping my vote here for now while I look where I can better place my vote. And when I get confirmation that damnit, Prody, you may be new but that doesn't mean you should be lynched! What's with newbies always thinking they should be eliminated from play as soon as possible? It's like you don't want to play.
Given the role madness in this game, I think more information will surface as the game progresses...
I am also playing to WIN. Less on the survive part, but it can't be helped if my role works like a martyr.
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That's a very interesting softclaim. On the one hand, I want more info to determine what to do with you. On the other, I don't want to give unnecessary info to scum. Quite a quandry...
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What is to be expected: Lots of roles (though most are pretty basic, so I dunno if Role Madness applies)
Lots of roles != role madness. Role madness is if you have really weird and/or quirky roles. EH, whatever.
UK: because if I put him at L-1 then that means the lynch is basically "cinched" and the chances of an alternative are low. Also lol @ "you're trying to start a counter-train", I was on Prody before the business with Huh What surfaced.
Prody's done nothing to address the people voting against him and I still want to know why he's so unlikely to move his vote. "WIFOM" means "Wine In Front Of Me" and it generally refers to circular logic that bases itself on itself so it's impossible to discount or credit due to its nature. Scum could do this, but they might do this, which they may do this after all because they anticipate we do this, so if we do this, then-- etc etc. It doesn't work.
Not too fond of UK's "OMG YOU DON'T WANT TO PUT HIM AT L-1, COUNTER-WAGON MAKING?!?!?!" and "on the other hand I'm not too happy how it's growing unopposed :V". Uh, no, if you criticise people of something you stick to it, not flop around like a Magikarp. Willing to believe part of my problem with UK's "I'm not going to do anything until people start talking!" is due to playstyle differences but man, it's inherently lending itself to lurking and then sniping when someone does something, anything, that warrants an attack.
Would prefer UK makes it clear why he's voting Huh What. Fuzzy feelings and gut checks are nice but yeah, it's much too vague and not a solid reason for voting people at all. After sitting around talking about waiting for something real, jumping Huh What with the explanation of warm and fuzzy feelings related to gut and vague ideas about something getting you wrong about his posts, no. Not acceptable.
Not sure about Kefit's accusation re: prodvote, I mean it's completely reasonable to prodvote at first and I disagree with holding it against huhwhat. His case boils down to "low content posts", "prodvote" and "third on the train is SCUM". I dunno, it just feels weak, you know?
But what else feels weak is NeoSerela. Hey, first post on Huh What. Posted at 8:42 PM by my clock, which is top of page 3 but hasn't given us a peep since then, even though last login claims 10 AM today, and it's now past 3 PM. Surely something could've surfaced rather than sit on the jokevote?
##UNVOTE
##VOTE: NeoSerela
As for Huh What, I want to see him respond to his accusers and sort out why he thinks he handled perfectly acceptably. I am not sold on a tunnel vision to a single target unless there's absolutely no one else who looks suspicious, and I am not too happy with NeoSerela lurking away while her jokevote rises to L-2 status.
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Elaborating the counterwagon point: I meant that whoever you voted later would be the counterwagon you might be trying to form. As I said though, it wasn't a strong feeling, just an observation. Interesting you're getting so defensive about it.
Also, I love how supposedly my playstyle lends itself to lurking and sniping when I've probably got the most posts in this game out of all of you. Manz, don't you just HATE it when the facts don't support your conclusions? Shit sucks, yo.
At any rate, my supposed "flopping around" is me thinking things through. For my SOLID THOUGHT, I'm going to stick with 'Huh, why is this wagon going unopposed? Then again, the reasoning is pretty decent so I'll probably stick with it. Oh, by the way, why is Bard so scared of L-1?" If you don't like it...I...honestly don't give a damn. Since, you see, I'm accountable to the town, not some self styled inquisitor. You have no rule over me, so quit acting like you do.
Anyway, you've explained why L-1 worries you. That kind of thinking kinda leads to a vicious cycle IMO, but whatever, it makes sense in this context.
Nextly, I don't give a damn what you find "acceptable" or not. Check your fucking ego.
That said, it's as I said. His response to Prody reads badly. If that's not enough, too bad.
Finally, I fukken love your Serela vote. Good catch ^-^. I tend to miss activity tells because I don't look for them, though they are sometimes valid. Still wanna see more from Huh What but hey, we got ourselves a good start here.
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VOTE COUNT
UncertainKitten ( 2 ): Chaore, Prody, Nobu, Kilgamayan
Prody ( 2 ): Bardiche, Polaris, huh what
huh what ( 5 ): NeoSerela, UncertainKitten, Kilgamayan, Nobu, Kefit
Kilgamayan ( 1 ): Zakeri, Bardiche
Bardiche ( 0 ): Kilgamayan
Chaore ( 0 ): huh what, Nobu
Polaris ( 0 ): Zakeri
Affinity ( 0 ): Chaore
Kefit ( 0 ): Kilgamayan
NeoSerela ( 1 ): Bardiche
Huh What is at L-2
Not Voting: Choja, Affinity
With 13 votes in play, 7 votes are required to hammer. About 12 hours are left in the day.
Choja and Affinity have been prodded.
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Man, chill UK. I always state things the way I feel about them, it has nothing to do with authority or whatever. I only jokingly referred to myself as such and you're taking it too far. When I find things unacceptable it means I want a better explanation and honestly I can't understand why you'd make such a huge deal about it.
I'd like to be able to say what I don't like about people during Mafia games without getting all ad hominem flung back at me, okay? >_> It made me request a Mod Kill the other time and I don't want to do it again but it's annoying.
Most your posts aren't really high in content. Active lurking is when you post a lot but never say anything useful. This, I hold against you as I would hold it against anyone else. Seriously, it doesn't need the hostility.
Now, can we just play this game without the aggressive attacks because I'm not up for Round 2 of that. >_>
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Funny, I wasn't really that aggressive against you. If anyone was aggressive, it was you, and I correctly called you out on it. If you can't stand the heat, then don't bring it to the table.
I hardly ad hommed you, I merely made a request in a strong manner that you stop trying to act as if your the authority on WHAT IS PRO TOWN and assume that EVERYTHING YOU SAY IS RIGHT.
Cause it isn't.
Further, I'd like you to make a breakdown of my noise to content posts so I can see what you consider "low content", or if you're just making stuff up for some strange reason ^-^.
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... RIght, so I feel you were aggressive and the reverse. This is just a repeat of the first game here, and honestly it's just making me regret signing up. It always turns into some tug-of-war here and I honestly don't know why you insist on it.
You're acting as if you're right just as much as I am, which is a good quality in all town as far as I'm concerned because the only one you can trust is yourself. I... fail to see what's so bad about it. Second-guessing myself on what I say and thinking what I feel are scum tells is wrong just... doesn't help any bit to me. Why should I take others' words for it? I'll prod whoever doesn't act in a pro-town way to me, I can't wonder what everyone else's views of pro-town are. >_>
For the sake of completion, Page 2 your only worthwhile post is the one prodding Zakeri about his "Let's get srs guys". The rest is just saying you've not seen anything scummy yet and defending against a jokevote. Page 3 is something about Huh What being right but then not completely, your vote for him for vague reasons and the explanation you can't explain those reasons. And Page 4 is this business.
That's a lot of posts, but most of them fall back to telling little and they're not really useful. That falls under active lurking for me.
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Not acceptable ^-^.
Please link every post and tell me what's right or wrong with them. Because I think you're being very cavalier about lack of content since it suits you.
And it's fine to assume you're right, but your tones were just really fucking hostile. To be fair, I actually toned down my response post, that was how stupidly unnecessarily hostile your language was.
I don't WANT to get in a tug of war with you. But you AREN'T going to get away with playing the victim here. We're both at fault.
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Hmm...in the spirit of compromise though I'll try to tone it down FURTHER, if you'll try to not piss me off, k ^-^?
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Ouch, Sakana, that hurt.
Wait, huh what is at L-2? What's going on?
Sorry if I have zero content, but I just checked here right now. I'll get some quickly though, so don't worry!
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Have you read the game at all, Choja? Or are you catching up now? If you have read the game, could you at least ask more specific questions about why HW?
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gahhh you people post too much, there were like 6 new posts while I was writing this
Uh, first of all, I'd like to point out the Prody... didn' t actually answer my question. <_< He clarified his vote but didn't really do anything else. Still want to see something about that. Either way, I'm going to ##Unvote, since now that he's posted more I pretty much have a derptown read on him now. This doesn't excuse him ignoring me, though.
About Serela... I'd like to point out that Serela was on the online list like all day yesterday without actually doing anything at all, so yeah, it is incredibly likely he was lurking. Still, I'd rather not move my vote to him because using a vote to prod a lurker during D1 is kind of silly imo, especially when somebody else is already doing so.
As for Huh What, I want to see him respond to his accusers and sort out why he thinks he handled perfectly acceptably.
Yeah, sure.
As for my own wagon...
@ UK: There isn't really much defend myself in regards to this since it's mainly gut. :x All I can really say is I thought that Prody bringing up the possibility of a "townie superweapon" was completely unnessecary at this stage and looked really awkward to me (like, subliminal rolefishing awkward idk) when I read his post so I brought it up.
@ Kilga: Er, why was the argument that big of a deal? I felt it was mildly hypocritical of Nobu to say that he didn't see how discussion could come from jokeposts, then make a bunch of jokeposts himself. I suppose I could have stopped dragging it on when he said "because it's better than lurking?", but I don't see how what I did was actually scummy as much as just kinda unnessecary.
@ Nobu: See above, and I already said that the hypocrisy you pointed out wasn't really hypocrisy due to the different circumstances of the two things I was accusing. Don't really like this jump, his new point looks like padding for a vote that otherwise is just what other people said, which makes it feel sorta like he's trying to trip me up over small things.
@ Kefit: Not really feeling that great about this either. Also not sure why he thinks my vote was "simply to prod a response from (Prody)", I already did say he looked mildly suspicious for other reasons, but if I had gone over them I'd really just be parroting Bard. Might not have explained that very well at all in previous posts, but still. I'm assuming the active lurking accusation mainly involves the "argument" with Nobu, which I already tried to explain myself on. I'm not gonna lie, the "lolthirdvote" accusation seems blatantly tacked on to make the case look like it has more to it than there really is. If it's being used as a scumtell, then uh, how does being the third vote allow scum to sneak on unnoticed at all? I really don't agree with using the third vote as a scumtell since in the end it's just going to boil down to wifom over whether scum would want to jump on as third as a wagon or not because of its existance. Seems entirely pointless to me.
In terms of scum intent, though, I... don't really feel that bad about the people on my wagon, despite not agreeing with their reasoning. Nobu seems the worst to me though, maybe Kefit too, idk. I'd rather go with Nobu though, he hasn't been hot on content aside from his vote on me, and even then I feel his vote is a weak wagon jump that uses a minor contradiction in my post (which wasn't actually a contradiction <_<) to make it seem like he's not just parroting the other two people who had voted me at that time. Kefit at least contributed aside from his vote on me (ie, what he pointed out about Polaris).
##Vote Nobu
I can't think of anybody else who looks suspicious to me at this point. Perhaps Serela, but I'd rather not jump on him for the reasons I already said. I wanna see something for Chaore too, since he kind of disappeared after everything got srs.
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I really, really do not wish to elaborate more than I already have in fear of giving out information, but I think I already gave out too much already anyway.
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How would answering my question give away information about your role at all?
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Oh wait.
Assuming my assumption about your role is correct, I think I understand why. Nevermind then.
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That's it! I think what bugged me is that you yourself were accusing Prody of a subtle rolefish and I thought you were doing a subtle rolefish yourself!
So it's kinda worse because you have added hypocrisy...
Anyway, HW, why do you have to vote someone who's on your wagon?
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Uh, how was I doing a subtle rolefish myself? I don't get it. :x Unless you mean by simply continuing to bring it up I'm adding to it, in which case hurrr I did not think about that while posting my post.
I never said (or even implied) I had to? If you're wondering why I'm looking for scum there, then uh, it makes sense for there to be scum on my wagon at this point considering I have four votes (five counting Serela's jokevote) around halfway into D1, and the other people who have posted that aren't on my wagon (Bard and Polaris, unless I'm forgetting somebody) haven't really raised any suspicion from me as is.
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##UNVOTE
##VOTE: NeoSerela
Neo just seems MORE likely to be scum at this point. I'll see what he says.
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Fuck the Quadratic equation. I mean sorry about kind of disappearing there last night.
To be honest, town is likely to benefit over my death.
Oh. So Prody is me. This explains a lot. Yeah I'm throwing him for derptown.
And... Huh, what? We've already at L-2 on someone? And it's... Oh. D1 Mafioso again.
@UncertainKitten: So yeah, got anything other than 'Screw it, He could be scum I'll just wait and see?' You didn't give Bard an answer to that, after all.
@Kilga: I'd say D1 excuses it but- JUST the Nobu section? That's it, Nothing else? That's plain unusual. And kind of lazy as you can just scroll up to see it and consider it a good reason. Interesting.
@Nobu: 'Expanding' but similarly just 'Oh I like what Kilga said lemme vote with him.' Again, I should be saying D1, Don't think too hard but... Yeah I don't really like that jump on.
@Kefit: Probably the most reasonable, Given Prody is an easy mark, claiming Huhwhat went in after it (Even if it's using the third on wagon fallacy) is completely reasonable. But if I have one thing I don't like, It's the fact that this came up at the -L-2- vote.
Oh and Neo is still on from a jokevote. So it's inflated a whole member thanks to him being lazy. Get your ass in here you lazy text-adventure host.
Also- Way I see it, ##Unvote, ##Vote: Nobu. Kilgamayan and Kefit Trailing. Kilgamayan has priority over Kefit for having a worse case, but unless I want to say he set the wagon up and get into conspiracies- I'm going to go for Nobu based on the fact his post is more likely to be a lazy scum hop onto a potential wagon, And Kilga seems more likely to be trying to start discussion and an actual case from relatively little like bard suggested- Given he could've done this with more, but that doesn't convict him.
@CutHW: Fuck the Quadratic equation. Also trying to write this post and retyping it for about...three hours now? Holy shit.
@CutPrody: ...*Desk* Fuck. It's Zentillion all over again. Is it too soon to call outs?
Warning - while you were typing 14 new replies have been posted. You may wish to review your post. ...yeah, 3 hours alright.
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@Rou: Who could be scum? HW? Well, he could be scum. I'm voting him. Serela? I like HW slightly more still.
@HW: What makes you so sure there's a scum on your wagon?
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...i'm not rou.
So I'll take it as 'Nope, Still gut'. Alright then.
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Derp, Chaore then.
And no, not still gut. I feel HW was rolefishan, in a hypocritical way.
Pay attention please ^-^.
Serela I don't like the supposedly being around but not active, though HW's testimony about Serela mitigates that a little.
Though...I could have sworn he was on #meido yesterday...could be wrong.
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Oh hey, I'm not the only one who mixes the librarians up.
As a townie with 4-5 votes on me, it makes a lot of sense for there to be at least one scum on me, especially since my wagon came up sort of fast imo. What exactly is wrong with me looking at my wagon for scum? I already said that the two semi-active people off of it looked fine to me at the time, so.
Also wow I did not realize there were only 12 or so hours left. Aren't we still waiting for something from Affinity, Zakeri and Serela? I'd also like to know if Polaris' stance on Prody has changed at all.
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Ugh, phoneposting and making good Mafia posts seems to be impossible, especially when you're strapped for time, but I'll do what I can. Just a warning.
@Bard/UK: UK's tone has already made me balk a couple times so far this game, but Bard seems just 'srs bsnss as usual' and I haven't gotten the same attitude vibe UK is accusing him of. Please cut it out. Also, the whole "link me to every instance of blabla defense" repeat makes me twitch.
@huhwhat: I didn't have much to add to what had already been said about you, and what I pointed out is the only other thing that I thought odd about your previous posts that hadn't been mentioned yet.
Uh.. What else. I'd like to see a better explanation for Prody's Neo vote, and I agree with what Kefit said earlier regarding when to press him about derp. As of now, it's all null tells, and reading into his play as being either clever or derpy scum is WIFOM (and if I'm using the term wrong here, just stupid to do at this point). Huhwhat still seems the best case at the moment here, though switching to Neo for LAL reasons is tempting at this point.
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Also UK, you never answered me about how I was rolefishing :x
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At this moment, it IS the most crucial time to vote me. Simply because my win condition is:
Your goal is to discover the inhuman beasts that are hiding in the Village.
You win when all threats to the Village and your love have been eliminated.
And note that when one lover dies, the other will follow. I'll be playing martyr here, and unless I'm somehow misunderstanding that win condition, town will benefit from it.
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Nothing wrong with it, why do you assume I disagree ^-^?
I'm merely curious if you knew WHY you were looking there.
Hmm...I'm getting better vibes from HW now, as this continues, to be honest.
##Unvote
##Vote Neo Serela
L-FuckifIknow, 4? 5? 11?
@Nobu: Whether it makes you twitch or not, I want the information. And I'm not doing it to be petty, it gives me insight into what Bard is looking at. So, I'll thank you to leave Bard to it ^-^.
Also, was your commentary REALLY necessary? I said I'd back off, so good job reopening things that are closed. Do you enjoy sticking your nose where it isn't wanted? And I'm sure you'll complain about that too.
Rest of your post is boring.
Anyway, HW, the way you brought it up implies you're looking for it. The what if she does, in particular, felt weird. Regardless, your later posts don't give me any weird vibes, as I said. I'm willing to chance Serela.
Prody cut
.
.
.
WHAT? First, of all, you BETTER not have quoted that.
SECOND of all, did you even THINK to ask clarification from Sakana? It QUITE OBVIOUSLY means that you win when BOTH your lover is alive and the town has won! NOT when their dead!
Ach!
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If my commentary to Prody is "out of line", I'm sorry, but seriously, quoting the win con was silly on so many levels.
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My eyes immediately zoomed to "...your love has been eliminated". Elaborate further, please.
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... Uh, you win when threats to the town and threats to the other lover have been eliminated, not when the your lover and threats to the town have been eliminated.
Also, turns out I was wrong about your role, so yeah that doesn't really excuse you not answering my question earlier, though I suppose it doesn't matter too much now.
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You win when all threats to the Village and your love have been eliminated.
While I can see where the language COULD be interpreted that way, one would at LEAST assume you'd question it because of what is the general lover win con.
That said, if you read the whole sentence as "You win when all threats to the Village as well as your lover have been eliminated", the intent becomes clear.
Bold is what you're trying to eliminate. Italics are what is being threatened. Underline is what I added for clarity.
Regardless, you might as well ask Sakana for clarification assuming you don't get modkilled for quoting part of your role PM.
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@UK: I assume you're going with Neo now based on what Bard said, to clarify?
@Prody: you are a million times worse than zentillion just an fyi
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Mmkay, reading the topic. I wasn't posting yesterday because I kept typing a post, looking at it, thinking it was stupid and not really advancing out of lolRVS at all, and deciding it was ultimately better to delete it and talk when I actually, like, have something worth saying.
Although, I forgot that then there's the 16~ hour period where I sleep and then go to school and generally don't have computer access (Unless a miracle happens and I manage to awaken early enough to post before school, and I'm not in the class with computers anymore), which suddenly makes "I'll wait out RVS a bit" to "lol not posting for 30+ hours". Which I do agree makes me look kinda suck. However, when people start voting lurkers on D1, isn't there usually like... everyone else going "LAL doesn't work that way, what are you doing, wait till D2"? Ehh, whatever, I'd probably be voting me atm if I were you people.
Rereading, my post on analyzing everyone shall come shortly~
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UK, it became my problem as soon as it started affecting -my- quality of game. So I'll stick my nose where I damn well please, thank you very much.
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I'm really not impressed with the case on Neo. It's a LAL case, which isn't appropriate on D1 in a medium to large sized game like this. We know that the chances of hitting scum D1 are fairly low, so it's more important that we be able to glean information from the lynch itself. Lynching for LAL doesn't allow us to do that right now. First, the lynch victim will have made little to no contributions that can be analyzed in light of his flipped alignment. Second, the members of the vote train upon him can all hide behind a LAL policy. LAL should be reserved for later days as a safety policy and deterrent.
The Bard vs UK cat fight that occurred shortly after my previous post makes me feel pretty good about both of their towniness, despite both of them now placing their votes on Neo.
re Prody: What the hell? This is setting off my derptown sirens, but I'd like to wait until either he gets clarification from Sakana, or Sakana takes action for copy and pasting the role PM, before I think about this more.
Keeping my vote on huh what. I'm not impressed with his response to his wagon here (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,7063.msg435967.html#msg435967), as he posted an awful lot while actually saying very little. His vote for Nobu is not a particularly bad vote in terms of target, but his reasoning is weak ("it feel[s] sorta like he's trying to trip me up over small things"). Also, at this stage of d1 voting, this comes off as a safety vote placed on a target with no prior votes and thus won't indicate much about huh what's alignment in the days to come.
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At cousin's house, not really tremendously focused on the game, so only responding to a couple of things. Proper read of happenings will come later.
HW: If by "a bunch of jokeposts" you mean "one jokepost", then, uh, okay. They also came before he questioned the usefulness of jokeposting but that's probably just a semantics argument.
Chaore: What do you mean by "unusual", and what makes it a bad unusual as opposed to a good or neutral unusual? I'm also not sure I agree with "it" being a "good reason", but I must admit I don't know what "it" refers to.
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(And yes this is Kilga I don't like logging into the admin account when I'm not at home.)
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That's nice Nobu. Too bad you ignored the part where I said I was backing it off, hence why your comment, once again, was unnecessary.
Whatever, I'm here to play mafia, not bicker about attitudes. Since you apparently have time to post, do you have anything mafia related to add, dearest Nobu?
Looking forward to Serela's post. I'm going with LAL because I don't feel HW is as scummy as I initially thought.
@Chaore: Yes, I don't like the whole avoiding RVS and then not posting forever after thing.
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Twins magically appear at the worst possible times.
My post will be a little delayed, but hopefully within a few hours from now. My sister is supposedly coming home to take over soon, but only "supposedly".
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What's great is we only have a "few hours" left in the day.
How many is a few hours, Serela? Are you certain you'll be posting before deadline?
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What's great is we only have a "few hours" left in the day.
Just saying that while the day is about to end, four people (Affinity, Zakeri, Serela and Choja) still haven't really contributed. Bah, I don't like 48-hour d1.
What are the odds of an extension?
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What's great is we only have a "few hours" left in the day.
How many is a few hours, Serela? Are you certain you'll be posting before deadline?
There's like, 6~8 hours left, right?
Yes, I should definitely be posting before deadline. My sister also got home recently, so it'll probably be sooner rather then later.
I'd agree with an extension, there are people who've done even less then I have so far. Normally I think 48 hour d1 is fine due to lol d1 but, yeah, this isn't working out.
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Oh, hey, good, Sakana uses my rule.
##Vote Extension
You can majority vote for a deadline extension.
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##Vote Extension
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##Vote:Extension
starting reread again and, god willing, shall actually get to FINISH this time
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Back, rereading. Kneejerk reaction to extension option is that I won't be voting for it (not a fan of making Day 1, of all days, even longer) but if it passes then I'll roll with it.
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Well, I have two reasons for supporting the extension. One, people need to get their asses in here. Two, D1 is where I figure out who's scum later in the game. The more D1 there is to analyze, the better I think I do.
To a reasonable level, of course. an MS D1 has a bad habit of overstaying it's welcome.
Do you think it ok for our tie breaker to not have posted at all for 87.5% of D1?
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Okay.
Happiest with Bard so far (surprise!), he has been asking good questions and providing good opinions and generally behaving in a way I like. Also willing to bet on Prody being town (like most other people apparently), I see nothing in his strange behavior that I can point to and go "this has scummy intent". I would also think ScumPrody would have buddies wrangling him in. BUT THAT'S WIFOM no it isn't MotK has too much of a history of lynching for bad play for it to be worth the risk and scum would have every tactical reason to make sure Prody doesn't make a spectacle of himself. (Also the whole roleclaim shenangians.)
Liking Kefit for the time being because his wordswordswords have done enough to assuage me from fears of him simply being a lurker hopping onto an easy bandwagon. Not a terribly strong feeling, but it's there.
Wary around Chaore for claiming I had "a worse case" than Kefit to the point that I am second on his list without him actually telling me why it's bad. I can't really defend against a case on me if I don't know what it is.
Frowny face at all the people using login times against other players. I thought we had moved past this. :|
Leaving vote on huh what, his response to my vote for him seemed to detail events that, from my point of view, were not the events that actually happened.
wrt attitutes of other users, since the main issues seem to have run their course, I generally advise people to not go back and point at OMG YOU WERE BEING A JERK unless it's actually an important part of a case. Bringing it up just to antagonize accomplishes nothing but pissing more people off. If you have issues with other players, take them up with the mods. I trust Sakana's and Serp's judgments. This is directed at everyone, not any handful of users in particular.
Cut by UK: I myself use D1 less and less as the game goes on, so I'm not terribly concerned Affinity happened to lurk his way through most of it even given his public role, and if his tiebreaker vote is for crappy reasons he'll get called on them. If the extension happens, though, then it happens.
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I don't see why using login times is a bad thing. We're agreed lurking is bad, right? And that lurking while being aware of the thread is worse since it implies caginess, right?
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aaaaggh back from school I totally feel rushed in having to make a post
##Unvote for now since while Prody is being really lame, it does feel like newbtown lameness instead of scummy lameness, and there's the PMquoting thing so I'll second Kefit's thing about getting some input from Sakana about it. (also I don't want to lynch new players on day 1 that would be lame D: )
Something I find funny is that Serela still hasn't unvoted from his jokevote on huhwhat, though that's probably because he's extreme derp :V :V :V
uhh uhh uhh ##Vote Extension because there are only six hours left and I really do feel rushed, and while I'll probably be able to get something in before the deadline, I'll probably have something of better quality if I, well, don't feel rushed (and tomorrow's the weekend which gives me a lot more time than if I had school, too) Any vote I make at this point will probably be just based on instinct/personal bias and that's a stupid reason so yeah.
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Caught up, or at least a bit.
@UncertainKitten:
Well, I'm surprised due to the fact that the last time that I was in a game, I... kind of got in an accident with huh what. NeoSerela did point out that huh what didn't jokevote me instantly, but maybe it's just to delay my NK or to lynch me another time. I probably shouldn't hold previous sentiments against him into thinking he's scum, but right now, the post about him commenting on his wagon has a large amount of ambiguities, a lot of, say, uncertainty. That right there just rubs me the wrong way.
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Prody is Zent 2.0. All I have to say on that matter.
Huhwhat... I don't really think he looks as bad as some people seem to think, but then again it's only a D1 case. I wouldn't terribly mind him being lynched, but I'd definitely like to vote someone else.
Nobu! The only contribution I really see from you is jumping on HW, and saying you're tempted to vote me for LAL. ha ha old chap LAL on D1. Also, we're the two non-you and non-lolprody wagons that have been here today. So... yeah. I see scummy intent there. You look worse then huhwhat to me, at the very least.
##Unvote, ##Vote:Nobu
I'd LOVE to see contribution from Affinity, Zakeri, and Choja.
Chojaninja:...there's another post coming very soon where you say more stuff, right? Also, please elaborate about what's bad with HW's post commenting on the wagon on him.
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@Kilga: I consider it bad on basis that I don't see why HW is scum because he asked why Nobu was doing something (Even if it is a stupid thing to ask) and also a misrep in he didn't criticize Nobu so much as point out on why he didn't think it was a better alternative to lurking, which included that he thought it made Chaff, trying to convince Nobu of his opinion that lurking was better than goofing off in the thread. It also wasn't really large enough to be an argument, though that's debatable I suppose. So It's unconvincing and misleading in one package, thus bad. This is why I find it a worse case than a fairly poor 'He jumped on an easy seeming wagon'.
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@Serela: Why is Nobu's LAL threat worse than mine or Bard's vote in that direction?
@Choja: What are you trying to say? There are words, but they do not make sense.
@Polaris: Solid opinions. They're good to have. As hypocritical as it is, saying 'well, this isn't good but it's D1 so aww, ok.' isn't the best way to go about things.
I'll admit I've decided the speed of the HW wagon being unopposed is part of the reason I unvoted him rather than just being all "Hey, that's not good, but D1".
The Nobu wagon seems weird, I probably missed something but could everyone explain their vote on it again with a couple sentences and citing links for the behavior you find scummy?
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That was a little... sudden, I'm sorry. Well, answering my prod, and I shall be rereading now.
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This is just gonna be restating what I already said, but ok. I don't like his jump on me here (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,7063.msg435523.html#msg435523), it feels like he added that incorrect accusation of hypocrisy to pad out his vote so it wouldn't just look like he's voting for the same reason Kilga did, but fails to explain why what I did actually looks bad, so it's more like attempting to snag me on a small wording-ish error which shouldn't have actually made me look scummy. I believe he was attempting an easy jump on a townie wagon while under the guise of contributing something to it, when said contribution was minimal. Additionally, he has not really contributed anything else aside from comments on Serela's and Prody's wagons, which really didn't add anything new to the table.
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@Serela: Why is Nobu's LAL threat worse than mine or Bard's vote in that direction?
Because of the huhwhat wagon jump and the two people he's shown any desire to vote are the wagons that aren't him or lolprody. Other then that, he also seems pretty low-content to me.
Can't wait to see Affinity's post, and the one I'm assuming Choja will have soon.
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@HW: I've clearly been skimming too much. I don't see how Nobu's accusation is necessarily wrong? What makes Kilga's joke votes different from Chaore's so that Zak is being too serious but your vote on Chaore is justified?
I think I see one explanation but I want to see you explain it. If you already have, link me to said post. Sorry about missing this earlier.
@Serela: Why is it bad that he wants to vote people from the other two wagons? Assumably they have wagons on them for a reason.
Also, going to explain this now. Even if I ask a question, I don't necessarily disagree with your conclusion, I just want to see your thought process. Of course, I don't necessarily agree either.
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@Choja: What are you trying to say? There are words, but they do not make sense.
What I'm trying to say is that he looks suspicious because his post tiptoes around most of the points he responds to.
His response to you admits it as an excuse of "gut" when Prody hasn't done much besides vote you, which could probably be a "gut" vote as well, so that makes everything with Prody strange, especially with his "oh, it doesn't really matter if I get lynched" business.
The Kilga and Nobu arguement was pretty much about Nobu being silly on random votes. Not much here.
Oh, who am I kidding, I suck at D1. I can't make mountains out of anthills.
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So, what does that have to do with the "accident" last time you were in a game with HW or whatever you said?
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@HW: I've clearly been skimming too much. I don't see how Nobu's accusation is necessarily wrong? What makes Kilga's joke votes different from Chaore's so that Zak is being too serious but your vote on Chaore is justified?
As far as I can tell, Zak was voting Kilga because provided the jokevotes were serious, they would result in an incredibly awkward voting pattern. However, I believed the vote on Kilga was derpy because Kilga's votes were during the RVS and probably not to be taken seriously. I was not discouraging Zakeri from making serious posts, just saying that I thought it was odd that he was voting somebody over jokevotes while acting as if their votes were serious. My vote on Chaore was not because I was taking a jokevote of his seriously like Zakeri was, but rather because I believed it was unnessecary for him to drag out non-srs voting right as we were getting srs. So the two votes had different circumstances, and I don't see how it was hypocritical like Nobu stated.
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So, what does that have to do with the "accident" last time you were in a game with HW or whatever you said?
People would assume that HW would go after me because of it and that I would assume that he was probably scum for that reason, but I am assuming that he is scum not because of that accident, but because I am seeing that his posts are very wishywashy. That is all I am trying to clear up with that statement.
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People would assume that HW would go after me because of it and that I would assume that he was probably scum for that reason, but I am assuming that he is scum not because of that accident, but because I am seeing that his posts are very wishywashy. That is all I am trying to clear up with that statement.
I... what? :s
I wouldn't go after somebody over an outside dispute unless it was a rvs jokevote. That would be silly, since it doesn't pertain to the game.
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Explanation seems adequate to me, HW.
Anyway, I get you now Choja. As he defends himself I feel he gets a lot less wishy washy. What do you think of his latest posts?
(And yeah, that was kinda silly to elaborate on from that angle, rather, that that wasn't the reason)
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Anyway, I get you now Choja. As he defends himself I feel he gets a lot less wishy washy. What do you think of his latest posts?
They are getting better (verifying what he said in crystal clear detail), but I still feel uncomfortable towards him. D2 will probably clear things up significantly when we actually have something concrete to discuss. Or it might not, if he gets NK'd.
I'm sorry if I'm playing very horribly, D1 is my "get chucked into the ocean and flail arms while sinking" moment.
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@ Choja: Do you have an opinion on anybody other than me? :x Or a vote, for that matter.
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Seconding HWs request, but please don't list every player and say a nice thing about them. Just post about people you have some opinion on. Hell, I'd even be wary of posting any strong town reads.
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Can we get a votecount with hours left?
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I'm gonna take the liberty of doing this since I don't think either mod is online. Mainly since having a votecount around would be convenient for me atm.
May not be completely accurate or formatted perfectly since I'm really just editing the latest, but it gets the basic idea across.
VOTE COUNT
UncertainKitten ( 0 ): Chaore, Prody, Nobu, Kilgamayan
Prody ( 1 ): Bardiche, Polaris, huh what
huh what ( 3 ): NeoSerela, UncertainKitten, Kilgamayan, Nobu, Kefit
Kilgamayan ( 1 ): Zakeri, Bardiche
Bardiche ( 0 ): Kilgamayan
Chaore ( 0 ): huh what, Nobu
Polaris ( 0 ): Zakeri
Affinity ( 0 ): Chaore
Kefit ( 0 ): Kilgamayan
NeoSerela ( 3 ): Bardiche, Prody, UncertainKitten
Nobu ( 3 ): huh what, Chaore, NeoSerela
Not Voting: Choja, Affinity
Extension: UncertainKitten, huh what, NeoSerela, Polaris
With 13 votes in play, 7 votes are required to hammer. About 4 and a half hours are left in the day.
Wow, I did not realize that Serela still has 3 votes, and over a lurkerprod too apparently. What's with that?
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UK:
To be honest, I would say that you are a bit aggressive. Not like that would dictate you as scum, it's just that you get to the point faster.
Prody:
I don't know what to do with you posting the wincon or anything. It's under the tunafish's jurisdiction anyways.
I feel like I should be good to assume that Bardiche and Kilgamayan may be town, but maybe I'm just walking into a trap favoring them.
However, I would like to say that Chaore and NeoSerela look a bit suspicious to me. Nobu is so-so to me.
With all the points I've given, I don't think I'm really trustworthy at this moment.
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Huh, what? I totally unvoted and my vote isn't being used at the moment :ohdear:
which is a big problem and I really do want to use it but I can't find anyone :ohdear:
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Regarding the huhwhat bandwagon, I disagree with huhwhat ploughing through the bandwagon on him for scum.; it indirectly implies that voting for him was a reason for them being scum, which is rather itchy to me. It's defensive scumhunting, especially since he never really touched on people not on him.
Also, in this post (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,7063.msg435967.html#msg435967) his 'mild suspicion' on Kefit itself seems to be rather throwaway, especially since it was so fixated on the 'third on the bandwagon is scum' which was not a main point of his case.
Lastly, anything from this post (including the Nobu vote and the Kefit suspicion) seems to have no effect on his latter posts whatsoever; since he did not press Nobu (or anyone else) further when he replied to him until prompted , and did not do anything of note other than defending himself over and over again after his votepost. It's not as if his case on Nobu is exactly slam-dunk, and he should have been building on his case and looking at other cases rather than bitterly reminiscing over who said what in early D1. Thus, I'm quite okay with his lynch today, and quite weary of Serela and Chaore defending him (the earlier for no reason at all).
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@huhwhat: What do you think of UK's 'bandwagon jump' on NeoSerela, if you think such jumps are inherently scummy?
##Vote: huhwhat
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Anything else today seems quite insignificant, other than Prody's breaking of the rules and NeoSerela's rather strange disregard of all that has been said against him is awful. Serela's analysis also consists of, uhh... a very bad case on Nobu, meaningless prods, and nothing else. Second in line for me today.
Chaore is bad because he specifically considers only those who went on huhwhat in here (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,7063.msg436006.html#msg436006). Although some reasoning came behind it later here (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,7063.msg436231.html#msg436231), it did not consider huhwhat's later actions (the ones after early D1)
Lastly, votecounts need to be on far more. At least 3 per page.
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While I am working through what I missed inbetween visits, can people please call each other by usernames so people like me are not left guessing who is who? I get that Emiya Shirore is Chaore or something but for the sake of clarity, can you please refer to each other by usernames?
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Given my listing as Chaore in the first post and common referal to it, I'll change my name back to prevent confusion.
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Chaore: Huh. Well, I gotta I thought huh what was bad for also contributing to what I felt was chaff while simultaneously criticizing Nobu for chaff (as well as instigating further goofing off (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,7063.msg434967.html#msg434967) and then turning around and asking why Nobu was goofing off), but I realized that huh what wasn't explicitly taking those stances himself despite my thinking they were the right stances to take at the time, so I guess it wasn't as hypocritical as I initially thought it was. It still feels like gotcha games to a degree (egging on nonsense and then criticizing it) but not with the same weight I thought it once held.
I wish you had properly explained your problem with my vote earlier in the day, but nothing to be done about that now.
Ugh, not a lot of time left to make a new choice. Give me a moment.
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@ Affinity:
Nobu never really did anything after my accusation on him to either ease my worries or make him look worse to me. I don't know how I could really have continued pursuing him after that point.
I don't think my defense towards his vote mainly focused around what he said about the third person on a bandwagon as much as it just took me more :words: to convey my response to that part of his accusation.
I did not say that Kefit looked 'mildly suspicious', just that his vote on my wagon seemed worse than the others aside from Nobu's (which was at the end of my post). The 'mildly suspicious' part was about Prody, in response to what Kefit said about my vote on Prody.
As for comments on other cases? Uh, I dunno, the only case other than the ones on me and Nobu seems to be the one on Serela, and for the most part I haven't agreed with it, as it is a bit awkward how fast he got votes when all of them were lurker prods. Because of this, I was hesitant to go after him before he had actually posted something. Regarding what he just posted... yeah actually he doesn't make a lot of sense at all.
Serela, can you clarify your vote on Nobu once more? If I'm reading your post correctly, it's because he's only posting his opinions on wagons, which I'm... not really buying as a case. Admittably I have a hard time buying Serela as scum because I believe Nobu is worse and there them being scum at the same time would make absolutely no sense because of how Serela tied the wagons. I suppose he's a decent alternative, but I'm really just reading him as derptown as is, so.
Not sure why you're asking me about UK's jump on Serela. I really can't see what it has to do with what I've previously said at all. Mind explaining yourself better? :s
That said I think it's somewhat awkward to turn lurker-prodding votes into a wagon, and I'd like to know why she's still on him. Unless she explained that already and I missed it.
As for other people, uh... Chaore's defense of me looks really awkward and I don't know why he's doing it, but I can't entirely say he's parroting either since he apparently started his post before mine. Idk really. I don't have anything against UK, but I would like UK to answer my previous question. I want to see more solid opinions from Polaris and Choja too, Choja in particular has not actually explained his reasoning behind his opinions and is generally being incredibly awkward, while I cannot recall any solid statements Polaris has made at all.
Also, why are you attacking Chaore for only going after the people on my wagon when you're only going after the people on the Nobu wagon? You're not actually defending the person the wagon is on like Chaore seemed to be, but you're still mainly focusing on the people who are voting Nobu, so. :x
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I'm not trying to lurk, but I'm also not in the capacity to make good Mafia posts or properly defend myself from the bandwagon that's cropped up on me. In the middle of an Ohio trip and browsing through the mobile site on my blackberry while trying not being a douche by ignoring the driver. I apologize. Argh.
For being unable to provide more content than I have is largely because I've had no time thus far today. A lot of stuff has cropped up that I can't properly analyzed right now. If anyone has any direct queries to me, can you separate it from any WoTs and make it somewhat succinct? I'll try to answer them best I can.
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Nobu: Do you have any reasons to still be on my wagon beyond "what Kilga said" and an incorrect accusation of hypocrisy?
Also, I'm a little interested why you were apparently so tempted to even up me and Serela just because of D1 LAL when you thought I didn't look any better at the same time.
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No, I don't have any other reasons since I haven't been able to process much since then. And I don't know about your claim of 'inaccurate' either. And what do you mean "so tempted to even me up"?
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Actually, no, I've changed my mind. Not moving my vote.
The more I read over this sequence, the less I like it.
Law of averages. I'll be right sooner or later. 8)
Maybe this post is one of the times you're wrong. :V
Also, uh. Is your vote on UK even serious? I can't tell.
Voting for a hole in a joke defense and for linking TVTropes, and you're asking me if its serious? :V
Also, I have yet to figure out how good, serious cases can come out of a bunch of random voting and goofing off. ???
Then why are you contributing to the randomvoting and goofing off :s
The nature of the final question there doesn't sit well with me at all, for two reasons.
- How did you expect Nobu to answer this? If it were in response to "I don't think good serious cases can't come out of a bunch of random voting and goofing off", I could understand where it's coming from, but that doesn't appear at all to be his intent. Presumably, if Nobu knew a better way to advance into srsbsns, he would have used that method already. Nobu instead appears to be saying that he simply doesn't know how it works, but since it apparently works eventually, he might as well go with the flow. The responsive question is asked in an accusatory tone that isn't necessary.
- How can you ask this when you instigated at least part of the goofing off in the second quoted post? Presumably his answer had to be at least partly "because you were as well".
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And I don't know about your claim of 'inaccurate' either.
I went over that here. (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,7063.msg436256.html#msg436256) It's post #157.
And what do you mean "so tempted to even me up"?
Oh wait, nevermind about that. I forgot Serela's vote was still on me at the time.
Ninja'd by Kilga, gonna respond to that in a minute.
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The nature of the final question there doesn't sit well with me at all, for two reasons.
- How did you expect Nobu to answer this? If it were in response to "I don't think good serious cases can't come out of a bunch of random voting and goofing off", I could understand where it's coming from, but that doesn't appear at all to be his intent. Presumably, if Nobu knew a better way to advance into srsbsns, he would have used that method already. Nobu instead appears to be saying that he simply doesn't know how it works, but since it apparently works eventually, he might as well go with the flow. The responsive question is asked in an accusatory tone that isn't necessary.
- How can you ask this when you instigated at least part of the goofing off in the second quoted post? Presumably his answer had to be at least partly "because you were as well".
This might be an interpretation error, really. I figured that by saying "Also, I have yet to figure out how", he meant that he doesn't really agree they can. I know there have been multiple times I've worded things like that when meaning to say what I interpreted Nobu's post as (though different subjects obv), so. I didn't really think of it as if he was asking a question from a newbie pov. :x
How did I instigate it with that post? I did not consider "Voting for a hole in a joke defense and for linking TVTropes, and you're asking me if its serious?" to be goofing off if that's what you mean, just his original vote, and I don't think I pushed him into voting UK at all. The goofing off in "Then why are you contributing to the randomvoting and goofing off :s" was not aimed towards the post I had been responding to, just his original jokevote on UK.
Also, how does this exchange actually look scummy? I'm not going to deny it might have been unnessecary, but uh, where do you see scum intent in it? If I had used that as an excuse to vote him maybe, but my vote on Nobu has nothing to do with that exchange. I do not understand why you are making such a big deal over it.
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Also seriously, we only have 3 hours left and Zakeri hasn't said anything in ages. Where is he? :x
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Well, the reason why I'm asking you about what you think about UK's jump on Serela is because she did the same thing Nobu did; jumping on bandwagons for next to no reason at all other than what other people had said before. Since you attacked Nobu so strongly for that, I want to ask you why you think UK's jump wasn't worthy of your attention(not that I have anything against either).
As for the last sentence in your post, gosh, I guess you're right. I guess what I meant was that he was focusing on Kilga and others solely because of what they said against you and nothing else. I'm looking at the Nobu wagon more because of how they are defending you for odd, unspoken reasons and their general scumhunting directions.
As for the other points, I'll keep it for later, but most of the responses are satisfactory. However, that sudden swing to Serela due to my post seems rather strange though; it seems to reaffirm that you aren't looking at those on Nobu's wagon very hard even though you could have.
I disagree with Kilga's insistence on early day one nonsense. Going for tone of voice and for something that cannot discernibly show any scum intent (to make Nobu more suspicious?) seems very weird to me.
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What question HW? And Serela hasn't impressed me as town. I see no reason to unvote him.
Am I missing anything else here?
Cut by Affinity: What do you mean by the last point?
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- I would have figured the ??? smiley would have given away that he was asking because he was genuinely not in the know. Nobu is the kind of person that, if he doesn't understand one method to accomplish something because he has another one at his disposal that he likes more, would explain the second method to everyone to get it out on the table. This also tells me that he was making that statement out of genuine uncertainty.
- You instigated more nonsense (or at least attempted to) with "Maybe this post is one of the times you're wrong. :V"
- I see scummy intent in asking trap questions, like yours, because trap questions are designed to make the responder look bad. The nonsense goading just makes it look worse. Voting or not voting is irrelevant to such things, really.
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On page five now. Had a rough and long day today.
##Unvote: Kilgamayan He's not the droid I'm looking for.
So far, UK is my biggest pursuit. Active Lurking, Admiting to Active lurking in post 71, General Suspicions thrown at anyone who complains in her direction, The long argument with Bard that I felt the need to skip over. The half explained gutvote on huhwhat. Much of this can be attributed to UK being UK, but it's hard for me at this point is see her completely clean of scum intent.
Chaore's 115 throws me for a loop, since it looks like little analysis went into the post itself. It might be just the way it read to me, but it doesn't feel very "Convictiony" to me.
I have trouble seeing where scum intent comes into play when it comes to Huhwhat. His posts read to me as being somewhat careless. Doesn't mean he's not scum, but if he is and gets lynched for it, I wouldn't blame him for griping about it aftergame.
Don't have a strong read on Nobu yet, and I'm not paying any attention to lurkers right now. Current bandwagons are okay choices, but not my choices right now. I'll keep reading. For now my strongest scum read is UK, for what it's worth on day one.
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@ Affinity: My attack on Nobu isn't just because he was going by what another person said, it's because I felt he was trying to hide that fact with an awkward complaint about something else I did so it could look like he was contributing to the case and therefore posting content.
If you want me to take a more indepth look at the people on the Nobu wagon, I suppose I could do that. I'm not going to deny I find it weird that they're defending me, anyway, but I may be somewhat biased because of how poorly I feel about Nobu.
@ UK: The one you just answered. And yeah ok.
@ Kilga: Well uh, I don't exactly know anybody here well enough to understand the tone of their posts perfectly well every time, so I can't be expected figure out somebody's tone based on who they are. I still hold that my interpretation of his post was off, I don't really know what I can say beyond that.
I don't feel that was really an attempt to cause it because it was not particularily something that warranted a response, but... eh.
I still don't see why I'm being voted over this. Yes, it wasn't the best thing I could have done regardless, but why is it so important compared to everything that's been done over the past few pages, ie the actual discussion? In all honesty I don't really like the way you're going about your case at all, it feels like you're pursuing me over something small that I can't possibly defend myself against because my only possible defense is my word that it wasn't done with poor intentions, which allows you to keep your vote on me and look like you're pressuring me. Arghhh.
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Got a vote Zakeri?
I know! Let's trade!!
##unvote, Vote Zakeri
Scared to vote me? Wondering if starting a wagon on me'll get you caught? C'mon ^-^.
Also, lol at your case.
One: Post 71 is being misrepresented.
Two: Prove it with links. Cause...let's see...Prody voted me and I thought he was town...and...um...I don't recall anyone else attacking/complaining that I've suspected? Since...I've suspected Serela and Huh What? And...um...actually think Bard is town? And...um...are you even reading this game or just skimming to see who you can accuse?
Three: And...that makes me scum how?
Four: Um...you mean the fully explained vote at this point, since now I get what bugged me?
Five: So, essentially, I could be being myself, but just cause you said so you want me to be scum...and then you fail to vote me?
That's pretty rich Zakeri. Pretty rich ^-^.
And the rest of your post is eggos. Thank you Zak, I needed some direction. Zak is scum guys.
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Serela is still lurking hardcore just like the others, I see. So there's little reason to keep voting them. Passing through D1 by lurking always makes me wish I had multiple votes to place on people but what can you do.
##UNVOTE
That said, took a look at the soup du jour and I can't say I'm against it. Day's running out, and I can't say I've much confidence in anything else at this moment. Yeah, Huh What looks good for a D1 case.
##VOTE: Huh What
Defence against allegiations has been uninspiring and unmotivated. No attempt to do much beside defending self. No active push on Nobu as a Not Me Over Me wagon, just general.. no, not really inspired by the defence against the allegiations which aren't too far-fetched as far as I'm concerned. Kilga's right about the weird question asked, and I'm not too fond of this post (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,7063.msg434931.html#msg434931) in particular. I don't like jokevote stages, voting on who I think is scummiest at any point in game is how I roll and it's just weird to be asking if we aren't taking Kilga too serious while saying his own jokevote is as good a place as any. Crap Reasoning is better than No Reasoning, etc.
Vote on Chaore because he was extending jokevote phase? While accusing me of taking Kilga too serious in my attempt to get rid of jokevote phase? Uh, okay, sign me up for your lynch.
Uninspiring defences as these (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,7063.msg436398.html#msg436398) also don't help; if you're under fire, defend yourself and give people an alternative. Don't just turtle into your defence and point at lurkers in the hopes everyone'll go LAL. (admittedly, I got stuck on Serela for a moment there but eh)
Not too happy with the lurkers still. Serela continues to provide nothing at all and I hope this trend doesn't continue into D2.
I made a mention earlier that Kefit's case on Huh What is kind of weak but in review I need to take that comment back. It's a pretty good avenue to pursue and on rereading Huh What has been completely uninspiring and waffling.
Ninja'd with OMGUS. Lol.
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Ooh, buzzwords from Bardiche. Did you even read the post or just assumed I was vengefully voting? Secondly, is "OMGUS" precisely scummy? And if so, explain how.
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Uninspiring defences as these (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,7063.msg436398.html#msg436398) also don't help; if you're under fire, defend yourself and give people an alternative. Don't just turtle into your defence and point at lurkers in the hopes everyone'll go LAL. (admittedly, I got stuck on Serela for a moment there but eh)
Uh, that wasn't really intended as a defensive post so much as that I wanted Zakeri to post after seeing nothing from him all day. I wasn't trying to direct votes to him at all, not sure why you're saying that.
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Oh also. Would like to see some examples of me waffling too since you accused me of that.
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Hey! Hey! HW! What do you think of Zak's post!
Or are you too busy playing with shields ^-^?
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Zak is scum guys.
This is the exact kind of distracting, Scum intent post I was talking about.
Voting you would do nothing except introduce yet another wagon that town is already having trouble deciding between a threeway. We should be wrapping up now, and picking someone to hammer - not continuing to raise more bandwagons. You vote on me is also as useless and serves nothing but to antagonize me.
Asking me to prove something with links is also a time waster because that would force me to go back, read though everything again, pick out everything I need to make a solid case against you, and post it just in time to have the mod foreclose the day. I also in that same post said I had to make progress in a rapidly moving goalpost that is the full reread, and challenging me on this right now is just a waste of my ability to make an informed decision.
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^Can't back up his case.
So, if you're SO CONCERNED about causing counterwagons...why...aren't you voting again? Do you think it's protown to be not voting at the end of the day?
Don't make me laugh.
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Hey! Hey! HW! What do you think of Zak's post!
Or are you too busy playing with shields ^-^?
I think it's silly. I don't think Zakeri is scum because of it, though.
I'm not "hiding behind shields" at this point since I'm already dead unless Affinity changes his vote to Nobu for some reason, but he's offline. I'm not really defending myself against Bard's accusations of waffling, though I don't understand where I did, which is why I'm curious why he's saying I was.
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Uh, that wasn't really intended as a defensive post so much as that I wanted Zakeri to post after seeing nothing from him all day. I wasn't trying to direct votes to him at all, not sure why you're saying that.
Breaking off in mid-defence to go "Hey where's Zakeri he's quiet!" and you repeat this song and dance later.
General uninspiring defence is waffly to me. It's a whole lot of words repeating the same thing like a divine chant and it's not really dispelling anything nor is it giving anything to the other players. You've had quite a few hours, and in all this time you've only concerned yourself with defending yourself and a rather uninspiring vote against Nobu with no real forte behind it.
Town should have some more gusto and get cracking on the scum hunting which I just don't see you do at all this day. It's all defence defence defence hey where's lurker x defence defence hey where's lurker x defence defence with some "zomg nobu's a little bad!" mixed in to come up with something that just doesn't cut it for a D1.
I'll grant you that it's not easy to defend against the charge Kilga put forth, but c'mon, you could've at least made some more effort, especially because you were being voted, to find scum and point us in the right direction. (because as town, you are always assured that we are on the wrong person)
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Well, I was more hoping you'd get on the attack after being called out for pure defense. Even if you don't necessarily agree with me ignoring this new development isn't cool!
But, I should probably elaborate on WHY Zak's terrible case makes him scum. Essentially, I think he's avoiding the wagons for a reason. It'll force a choice he might not want to make before deadline. So, he's introducing a case now that's CLEARLY not well thought out, but looks good on paper if you don't fact check him. The carelessness is, at the least, anti town. Combine that with the circumstances and I'm led to believe he's trying to stir something up.
Further, he spends the rest of the post waffling, and even waffles on me, his "strongest scum read". When I call him on it, he counters it by claiming that he "doesn't have time" to actually make his case presentable, which further implies he's hoping to sail it past without committing to anything.
Cut by Bardiche not answering my question. Gonna get on that ^-^?
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COMPLETELY UNOFFICIAL BARE-BONES VOTE COUNT
huh what ( 5 ): Kilgamayan, Nobu, Kefit, Affinity, Bardiche
NeoSerela ( 1 ): Prody
Nobu ( 3 ): huh what, Chaore, NeoSerela
Zakeri ( 1 ): UncertainKitten
Not Voting: Choja, Polaris, Zakeri
Extension: UncertainKitten, huh what, NeoSerela, Polaris
huh what is at L-2!
With 13 votes in play, 7 votes are required to hammer. About 2 and a half hours are left in the day.
Removed all that excess italics padding because ugh there were a ton of people that had no votes on them anymore. Sakana's time zone does not really help with the whole votecount business, which gets really bothersome. ;_;
I'm going to try and look at the current people who have votes on them and choose between the four, since there's no point in trying to start a new wagon at this point.
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/me sighs.
Going to state I'm probably going to vote HW over Nobu before I go to bed due to approaching deadline. I have a fairly neutral read on Nobu. I still have slight town on HW but admittedly want him to post more thoughts, and his wagon is kinda more likely to come to fruition.
Course, we COULD all be cool and vote Zak-scum. That'd be AWESOME!
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also anyone else support an extension? I think it would be useful at this point :ohdear:
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Extensions would be BETTER because then you all can read Zak-scum, Zak can try to fabricate his evidence, and we can lynch properly ^-^.
Yes, I'm that certain. I'm pretty deadly serious about this.
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also anyone else support an extension? I think it would be useful at this point :ohdear:
Nah, you've got enough time to evaluate the cases and decide where you want to vote. There's enough reasons to vote a bunch of people, just determine which you find most pressing to vote for.
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Bard, is there a particular reason you aren't answering? It's kinda buggan me...
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##Vote Extension
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Well, I was more hoping you'd get on the attack after being called out for pure defense. Even if you don't necessarily agree with me ignoring this new development isn't cool!
Apologies if I'm not really being cooperative atm, but my brain is kind of mush right now (a slight headache isn't helping), and I'm dead in two hours (and probably already considered so, I am by myself anyway) so asdfghjkl. As far as I'm aware the words of dead vanila townies aren't particularily going to make much of an impact later in the game, especially on D1, so I'm not particularily motivated either. But uh.
If you really want to know that badly, I feel Zakeri's case comes across as hastily-prepared and generally silly, but I don't feel it's actually scummy. What I feel could be scummy is him not voting the person his case is on because it wouldn't make a difference yet and instead not changing his vote to reflect who he thinks is scum, but you already pointed that out. I don't really have anything to add to the case, actually.
I still have slight town on HW but admittedly want him to post more thoughts, and his wagon is kinda more likely to come to fruition.
Aside from that I don't really have anything else to say at all, except that I don't like how Kilga pressured me but that's probably just a gut and that counts for very little. Still, it feels like he was forcing a really odd case that was awkward to defend against without posting opinions on anybody else. Actually, has he even said anything negative about people other than me? I don't think he has. He's just been attacking me all day without going after anybody else.
I'm actually not sold on my Nobu case anymore, but if he does turn out to be scum then Affinity would probably make a decent second choice because he attacked the people on the Nobu wagon. I don't really blame him for that, though, because of how ridiculous Serela is.
##Unvote, ##Vote Kilgamayan to reflect my opinion in the final votecount.
@ Polly: We still have four votes for an extension right now, fwiw. You, me, UK and Serela.
Oh hey now Choja did too.
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It'll force a choice he might not want to make before deadline.
You mean like a choice based on outdated information? Or information I don't have yet?
I'm reading Scum intent from UK, and anti-town intent from Chaore. I gave waffles out on the three bandwagons because I didn't have a strong opinion of any of them yet. I also don't recall waffling when I was talking about you. Especially after you decide to antagonize me and distract me from making those choices you accuse me of trying to avoid.
Since you're pushing me, I will note that Nobu's posts seem to amount to little besides bandwagoning without analysis, which in turn gives me a better impression on Serela for catching that in post 148. I also notice a lot of excuses being made by Nobu that come of as nothing more than using "Stop poking me, I'm completely helpless" as a defense for why Nobu isn't contributing.
I'm still uncertain of Huhwhat, but he posts a lot, and there's much content to be had in those defenses. In addition, he's the longest running bandwagon, and a lynch on him will reveal quite a lot of information on alignments for use of day 2. For merit of catching scum however, I'd rather lynch Nobu.
##Vote: Nobu
And don't worry, UK, there will be a case on you tomorrow unless alignment flips strongly suggestion you're town.
Cut: Oh right, I forgot about extensions
##Extention
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Besides, you know me. If I really wanted to avoid making a decision, I would have just not bothered starting my reread until night came.
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Oh good Zakeri ^-^. I look forward to shattering it ^-^.
May I extract another promise from you? If we get an extension, will you support your case?
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Ugh, so a reading mistake somehow causes me to be of a very low standard.
Now I know why I never play Mafia. The drama is pretty traumatizing for me.
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Meh...I'm sorry I was so harsh on you but quoting your role PM is...ah...kinda silly. Coupled with your reading mistake, it was hard to not be at least a little harsh.
Regardless, there were nicer ways to address the situation, so I do owe you an apology.
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Prody: Do you still prefer Serela to any of the current wagons?
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Ugh, so a reading mistake somehow causes me to be of a very low standard.
Now I know why I never play Mafia. The drama is pretty traumatizing for me.
Don't worry. Srs Mafier is Srs. Not all games are so cutthroat.
Should mention you ought to ask about clarifications of your role PM in future games and not to worry too hard. We all make goof ups in our first games. Just don't go sharing your lover's name now, and it's probably arright, unless you get smitten with a modkill for the quotation.
Modkills are never fun for mods so try to avoid it. Distance yourself from elements that upset you during the game and you'll make it through just fine.
Zakeri, why do you feel Nobu is a better lead than Huh What? The latest sprint of OMGUS against Kilga is not helping him. Meta defending him somehow or another? I'm not familiar with MotK mafier players save for a few (Pesco!!!) so I don't know if Huh What is generally like this.
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HW: Even if you didn't know Nobu very well to be able to get the second example I provided, the first one with regards to the emoticon was still readily available.
What could you have done to make me get off your case? Make some solid cases on other people, really. I actually wavered a bit between you and Serela because his Nobu-voting post was fairly unimpressive and he disappeared again right afterward, but your content on the whole wasn't all that impressive either, and that line really stuck with me, so I stuck with you. Even with your latest post, after Bard has plugged you for it as much as he has, it still looks like you don't want to do anything other than defend yourself. UK basically had to drag out reasoning from you regarding your opinion on Zakeri and you seemed very reluctant to give it while you were doing so.
It's also worth noting I've criticized Chaore, as easy-to-miss as it was, so my day hasn't been 100% focused on you.
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Ok, Bard, this is getting unfunny. I'm guessing you're ignoring me because you feel like you have some moral high ground thanks to my excitement in the Zakeri case.
This is NOT protown, should it be the case
Rather than just ignoring me and hoping I'll go away, you could at least SAY "Hey, UK, you're getting a little annoying again". Please do so if this is the case.
I DO realize my excitement has made my tone considerably more smug and I'm calming down now. I'm just REALLY sure I've caught scum at this point.
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EBWOP: To elaborate, I DO listen to people's complaints about me, even if it takes me awhile to dial it back properly, and if sometimes I do it grudgingly. I DON'T appreciate this little subgame of making me guess. It's a waste of time and just perpetuates the problem.
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I don't feel like repeating the first game I played here. There's no indication there's been any change since then and now, so I don't feel like the tug-of-war over how right you are. Find someone else for opinions or whatever, I'll deal with you when there's no other choice.
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Prody: Do you still prefer Serela to any of the current wagons?
NeoSerela really hasn't spoken much and I don't feel so good at the moment...
##UNVOTE
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I don't WANT a tug of war. I want ANSWERS. I wasn't even being caustic to you. I was rather sarcastic with Zak, yes, sure. But I seriously want to know.
I honestly have NO CLUE what the hell is bugging you. If you aren't going to tell me, how the hell do you expect me to change?
Are you happy that you're under my skin now? Cause GOOD JOB! HAVE A FUCKING MEDAL! Congratulations on getting a genuine UK breakdown!
Now that you have your little moral victory, HELP ME HELP YOU! I WANT TO FUCKING PLAY THIS GAME, AND I CAN'T DO THAT IF I CAN'T GET INFORMATION FROM PLAYERS!
Yes, this is pissing me off. Fix it, please!
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And yes, I'm serious. I'm willing to listen. But the way you've gone about it has been just plain immature. I have no idea why you'd TRY to piss me off, unless you're trying to play some silly "Now how does it feel to not enjoy the game, UK" thing. Maybe I'm missing something. I'd like to think I am. Regardless, my please is serious. I want to know what I did that bugged you, and how you suggest I change it.
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It's also worth noting I've criticized Chaore, as easy-to-miss as it was, so my day hasn't been 100% focused on you.
To me, that didn't seem as much of an accusation as it did a response. If you're going to claim it was actually intended as a point against Chaore, then what's your stance on him? Would he have been your second choice for a lynch today? I can't really tell what you think about him at all from what you said, but then again I can't really tell who you think is scummy at all other than me because I'm the only person you've pursued for more than a paragraph all day.
Bard: Regardless of whether you want to talk about your opinions on UK's case on Zak or not, you could always share your opinions on Zak himself and his case.
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ok. I THINK I'm in a reasonable mindset now. I still would like to resolve this amicably, Bard, and for that to happen we need an open discussion. If possible, we might want to have a chat between you and I outside of the game with Sakana and/or Serp overseeing it so we can resolve this without further hurting the integrity of the game.
Would you be up for such an option, assuming Sakana and Serp go for it? It's about the most reasonable thing I can think of that won't clutter the game thread. I'm also fine resolving it out in the open if you'd prefer. But, it's not fair to either of us to be hurting the game. I'm probably more to blame in this regard, but admittedly, your latest tactic wasn't very pleasant either. I want a truce, and then I want us to kick ass and catch scum, k?
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Whew, game blew up while I was away. Pretty sure the unofficial votecounts up 'till now have been accurate, but I'm going to try and quickly do a recount before the end of regulation time. Time left before the regulation deadline is one hour.
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Apparently I misremembered the exact phrasing of that part of my post, I thought it was more suspicion-demonstrating than it actually was.
Overall feeling on the day about Chaore is that he's been pretty lurkish, and I didn't remember a lot of what he did say when he posted aside from him actually explaining the problem he had with my vote. I can see where he was coming from with that stance, though, so he's higher on my happy chart than he could be. No worse than third on my preferred lynch order (first two being you and Serela), and really I'd probably put Choja ahead of him, too, because despite the newbie pseudopass I've been giving him, his day has consisted of absolutely nothing meaningful (tons of unsure stances) and very little post volume at all.
It's honestly very hard to make any sort of mental rankings of the game on the whole with all the newbies doing newbie things and all the lurkers being lurkers (and, for the most part, not being terribly useful when they've been present). Extremely difficult to pick through the muck. Bard and Kefit are really the only two people I like, and I'm thinking Prody's town, too. Been going back-and-forth on UK, I was able to see where the people accusing her of being low content early on were coming from (UK, before you ask, I'll be happy to provide the list you've been asking for in that regard tomorrow, if I think it's still relevant enough to pursue) but I thought she got better as time went on in the day, and then there's what just happened here recently, which...I don't really know. I'll be grateful for the night to give myself a chance to look her over (:winky:) without the pressure of a lynch deadline.
Everyone else is either someone I'm willing to vote for or doesn't really register in my head (which means I'm kinda willing to vote for them by default).
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No worse than third on my preferred lynch order (first two being you and Serela),
You haven't mentioned Serela at all today up until now (unless I missed something while looking through your posts), do you have anything to say about him that hasn't already been said, or is he just high on your list for the same reasons he is on the other people who dislike him?
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I talked about him right here (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,7063.msg436523.html#msg436523).
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I have to head to bed now. I apologize for my outburst(s?), and hope that those who are...a little underwhelmed with my attitude will at least consider being open about the what, and in return I'll do my best to address those concerns, and I won't flip the fuck out about them.
Oh...right.
##unvote, ##Vote Huh What
L-1.
Cut by Kilga: Nah, I have a general idea of your mindset. I was trying to get data on Bard to be honest since I think with enough exposure to his methodology I can figure out what to do with him when hunting for intents.
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UK, for your question on my last point, I just have to say that I find all this supposed trap-questioning by huhwhat a nulltell and that I don't agree with Kilga on that point. As for the questions, it seems that I have misinterpreted huhwhat's case on Nobu, so it doesn't matter anymore.
I don't like your sudden suspicion on Kilgamayan which was not telegraphed beforehand either, huhwhat,. The main thing now is that it seems that you have revealed that you do not really have a concrete opinion on who is scum and why, which is always fatal, I suppose. Admitting that you do not have much belief in the case you have been pushing throughout the game is also really damning too, and the questioning of Kilga does not seem to have much genuine drive behind it as a result.
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VOTE COUNT
huh what ( 6.5 ): NeoSerela, UncertainKitten, Kilgamayan, Nobu, Kefit, Affinity, Bardiche (L-1)
Nobu ( 3 ): huh what, Chaore, NeoSerela, Zakeri
Kilgamayan ( 1 ): Zakeri, Bardiche, huh what
Zakeri ( 0 ): UncertainKitten
NeoSerela ( 0 ): Bardiche, Prody, UncertainKitten
Chaore ( 0 ): huh what, Nobu
Prody ( 0 ): Bardiche, Polaris, huh what
UncertainKitten ( 0 ): Chaore, Prody, Nobu, Kilgamayan
Bardiche ( 0 ): Kilgamayan
Polaris ( 0 ): Zakeri
Affinity ( 0 ): Chaore
Kefit ( 0 ): Kilgamayan
Extension: ( 6 ): UK, huh what, Neo, Polaris, Choja, Zakeri
No vote: Choja, Polaris, Prody
43 minutes left in regulation. 1 more vote needed for extension.
Regarding modkills and conflict resolution and such, that'll have to wait for Sakana to get on and weigh in.
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ffffuuu. Less than an hour left and I'm not convinced on any of the cases here. Pursuing Kilga or Nobu isn't going to work out this late, as is trying any other wagons. But I don't feel comfortable in placing the hammer on huh what either... =/
What really bothers me is that this is pretty much the exact same setup as the last game, with huh what at L-1 and me refusing to vote >_> Only difference is that huh what didn't disappear for the rest of the day, but that was due to being inactive in general iirc so yeah it doesn't count
also iirc he roleclaimed vanilla townie if that matters at all.
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We both have votes on us. If you think we're suspicious, vote for one of us. A vote not on the vote chart at all is the only vote that's truly wasted.
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Ten minutes to go.
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DEADLINE SHUT UP
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~ Day 1 ended ~
The Stranger looked at the crowd arguing as he leaned on the tree.
They had been talking for a while now, opinions had formed and shifted, but it seemed it would end soon.
Suddenly, something caught his eye.
"So I shall reveal to you the words of fate that have been spoken to me, behold!"
It was Prody that had called for attention like that.
Just as he wanted to speak further, he twitched.
Noone had seen how it happened, but the Stranger had rushed in and impaled Prody on his sword.
"Sorry, but I can't allow that. You know the rules. Even if it was a misunderstanding, you could have asked for clarification.",
the Stranger spoke as the lifeless body sank to the ground.
As it fell, Prody's body shortly sprouted a pair of white wings, then it disappeared.
"Amor, eh?", the Stranger shrugged.
Then he turned around to that crowd, who was still standing in disbelief over the happenings.
"Well then, who shall it be now?"
For a moment noone reacted, but then hands were raised, fingers pointed at each other.
The Stranger looked around.
"That's pretty clear, sorry my boy."
His words were directed at Huh What, whom six people were pointing at.
A few minutes later, his body dangled from tree, swaying in the light breeze.
But nothing happened.
No flash, no fancy lights, not even him turning into a hairy beast.
Huh What had been nothing more than a Vanilla Villager.
"Hmm, what an ending. Well then, the show's over.
Have a good night, and don't let the wolves bite you, hehehe."
The Stranger grinned as he walked away....
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Huh What, Vanilla Villager, has been lynched.
Prody, Amor, has been modkilled for quoting the role PM.
Note: Upon death of a player, the Role PM will be revealed by me, unless the player was a Vanilla Villager.
You are a Amor, sent from the heavens to help the Village against those that threaten it.
Before the game starts, you will choose two Lovers from all the players in the game (you can choose yourself as well) and PM your choice to the Mods.
The Lovers will be bound by fate and must not vote against each other.
If one of the Lovers dies, the other will follow into death.
Should it happen that a Werewolf and a Villager end up Lovers, then they will become a third party that will have to eliminate everyone else for the sake of their love.
You have chosen yourself to be the Lover of XXX.
Neither of you is allowed to vote against the other, and when one of you two dies, the other will follow into death immediately.
You are not allowed to speak to each other in any way outside the normal discussion in the game.
Your goal is to protect your love against any threats.
Your goal is to discover the inhuman beasts that are hiding in the Village.
You win when all threats to the Village and your love have been eliminated.
Because I do not feel it fair to punish another player for someone else's modkill the Lovers have been deactivated. The second Lover will not die, and there are from now on no Lovers in the game anymore.
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It is now Night 1. The Village is sleeping and noone is to speak. You have 24 hours to send in Night Actions.
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~Night 1 ended~
As the sun started to rise over the village, the Stranger walked from door to door.
He did this everyday, and he knew what he would find.
In one of those houses, there would be a corpse.
He would get it, then bury it, like he did yesterday, and the day before that.
Then he would gather everyone else and the discussion would begin anew.
The Stranger opened the first door.
"Hah, my instincts are always right."
He neared the corpse.
Suddenly, he stopped.
He stared at the body for a while, then smirked.
"Now isn't that interesting."
A few minutes later, he had dragged the body out into the open and called everyone to the village square.
The first reaction was anger as they saw another victim, but it quickly changed to surprise, then to shock.
"No... Zakeri... why"
The body on the ground was not human.
A deformed face, fangs, a tail, beast-like claws instead of hands.
What laid there before them, was the corpse of a Werewolf.
"Well then, I'm gonna bury that one, and the rest of you, have fun deciding whom should hang today, hehehehehe."
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Zakeri, Vanilla Werewolf, has not survived the night.
You are a villager with no special abilities... except for your unfortunate infection with Lycanthropy.
You are a Werewolf that roams the Village at night in search for prey.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
It is now Day 2. You have 72 hours to decide on a lynch. With 10 alive, it takes 6 to lynch.
Note: Also, please always send in actions to both me AND Serp, for reasons of better managing the game.
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Well. I was gonna write up a piece on why I had more problems with UK based on the way she badgered Zakeri than anything else she did yesterday, but that seems kinda moot now. Willing to toss her into the townie bin for the time being.
##Vote: Nobu
in light of huh what's flip, and given the good feeling I'm getting from everyone else on the huh what wagon (aside from Affinity, but I don't feel particularly bad about him, either), I'm going to buy into this case. His cited reasons for joining that wagon were far and away the weakest, him mostly citing me falls even further flat on its face given I realized later that my initial reasons for voting huh what were less accurate than I had thought (making the vote seem even more like a bandwagon hop), and he did pretty much nothing else for the rest of the day. Even if this was due to outside circumstances, it still means there's nothing I can point at and go "well, this was pretty good".
Nobu aside, I am highly interested in hearing what Choja has to produce. I expect more of you than the nothing you did yesterday now that we have flips.
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~*~Serela's Quick D1 Analysis~*~
Polly is derp, nothing new there
UK is probably town considering Zak's scumflip
Bard I'm thinking is town due to :EXTREEM EFFORT: etc
Choja needs to actually do something
I think there was scum on huhwhat's wagon. Affinity strikes me the wrong way, but I should probably reread and post reasons if I want that to go anywhere today (Likely will wait till tomorrow on that and see how things are then unless people really want to lynch him more then Nobu today).
Don't like Nobu because basically all he contributed was the bandwagon jump onto Huhwhat and expressing a desire to bandwagon jump onto me for LAL. This was p.much my exact case yesterday, although now I think it's better since A.Huhwhat flipped town and B.The rest of the day passed without him really doing anything else, making my original points stronger.
##Vote:Nobu
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/me bows.
I told you (about stairs)
Anyway, I think I need to read Nobu in ISO before I come to any conclusions. I agree there are scum on the HW wagon.
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@Serela: Considering that a whole host of players have not done anything much yesterday as well, like Choja, Polaris, you, and Chaore, how are they in anyway different from Nobu? Furthermore, you have not explained how 'not being on the wagons that aren't him or prody' implicates Nobu as scum.
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Not really getting a good feeling from Kilga yesterday as well. I'm weary of how insistent he has been on the early D1 actions huhwhat has done without much regard for his latter actions which I feel are more important (like overly defending himself and not really commenting much on other players, even Nobu). He only finally admits that he was looking for a solid case from him here (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,7063.msg436523.html#msg436523), sort of following after Bard's and my lead, but before that, he has been questioning him totally on those early D1 actions, which strikes me as odd. I don't see any reason why he would have kept the above secret since me and Bard has already criticized huhwhat for not putting forward a case a bit earlier in the day. It feels as if he has been riding on that nearly indefensible accusation for the entire day, and that he had only tacked on the 'looking for a serious case' part later.
Lastly, but slightly less importantly, his suspicion against Nobu today seems a little incongruent with his D1 behavior, where he did not mention a single word against his supposedly weak bandwagon hop (I personally think it was okay). Therefore...
##Vote: Kilgamayan
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Also, I'm quite disappointed that Polaris, Nat Tea, and Nobu are not really giving us anything to work with, other than Nobu riding on the huhwhat bandwagon for real life reasons. It's quite detrimental to town, so I second that need for contribution.
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@Serela: Considering that a whole host of players have not done anything much yesterday as well, like Choja, Polaris, you, and Chaore, how are they in anyway different from Nobu? Furthermore, you have not explained how 'not being on the wagons that aren't him or prody' implicates Nobu as scum.
Choja:He's derp, as can be seen in his only other mafia game (Pesco's Piece of Shit PoS Mafia, unless I'm mistaken and I forgot he was in one of the anonymafias)
Polaris:Also derp, as can be very obviously seen in the previous game
Chaore:He... fell under my radar, actually. Hmm.
This doesn't mean they don't need to post (They do), but I'm not going to run around labelling lurky nubs as scum, especially when I've got what I feel is a good case on someone, and another person I'd like to pursue as well, even!
Also, Nobu isn't scum for NOT being on wagons that aren't him or Prody, I said the opposite. He's scummy because the only thing he really did yesterday is bandwagon hop onto Huhwhat parroting Kilga's weak case and adding a slight expansion, and then say he'd vote me (an emerging wagon) for LAL (lol LAL on D1).
Parroting a bad case to wagon hop, and then saying he'll wagonhop to an emerging bad wagon. This is all he really contributed yesterday. How is that NOT bad?
I'm definitely being weary of Affinity now, with all his defense towards Nobu and how much he loved the huhwhat train yesterday. If Nobu flips scum, I'd be fairly sure Affinity is too. That's something to discuss tomorrow though, after we have said flips (Or later if Nobu isn't dead by then)
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Kilga's giving me some bad vibes right now. While Nobu's contributions yesterday left much to be desired, my ISO reveals he was having a lot of difficulty posting in the latter half of the day. While this doesn't necessarily preclude him from being SCUM, the way you've gone about accusing him without taking into account his naturally low ability to post as he was travelling is...kinda weird ^-^.
Secondly, I'm interested in this. Can you post the hypothetical case on me, Kilga, regarding Zak? I know it doesn't apply now, so I won't defend it, but I want to see your thought process.
Anyway, going to ISO Kilga, and check out the cross section of Serela and Nobu's wagons.
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WARNING: QUOTE SPAM
First vote on Serela:
VOTE COUNT
UncertainKitten ( 2 ): Chaore, Prody, Nobu, Kilgamayan
Prody ( 2 ): Bardiche, Polaris, huh what
huh what ( 5 ): NeoSerela, UncertainKitten, Kilgamayan, Nobu, Kefit
Kilgamayan ( 1 ): Zakeri, Bardiche
Bardiche ( 0 ): Kilgamayan
Chaore ( 0 ): huh what, Nobu
Polaris ( 0 ): Zakeri
Affinity ( 0 ): Chaore
Kefit ( 0 ): Kilgamayan
NeoSerela ( 1 ): Bardiche
Huh What is at L-2
Not Voting: Choja, Affinity
With 13 votes in play, 7 votes are required to hammer. About 12 hours are left in the day.
Choja and Affinity have been prodded.
Hmm...HW was the first vote on Nobu. Odds of a counterwagon going down.
This (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,7063.msg435988.html#msg435988) exchange (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,7063.msg436006.html#msg436006) is odd. This is the third vote on the Serela wagon... (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,7063.msg436025.html#msg436025)
Serela ties it up with Nobu. (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,7063.msg436230.html#msg436230)
VOTE COUNT
UncertainKitten ( 0 ): Chaore, Prody, Nobu, Kilgamayan
Prody ( 1 ): Bardiche, Polaris, huh what
huh what ( 3 ): NeoSerela, UncertainKitten, Kilgamayan, Nobu, Kefit
Kilgamayan ( 1 ): Zakeri, Bardiche
Bardiche ( 0 ): Kilgamayan
Chaore ( 0 ): huh what, Nobu
Polaris ( 0 ): Zakeri
Affinity ( 0 ): Chaore
Kefit ( 0 ): Kilgamayan
NeoSerela ( 3 ): Bardiche, Prody, UncertainKitten
Nobu ( 3 ): huh what, Chaore, NeoSerela
Not Voting: Choja, Affinity
Extension: UncertainKitten, huh what, NeoSerela, Polaris
With 13 votes in play, 7 votes are required to hammer. About 4 and a half hours are left in the day.
(Editted out non votecounty stuff. IIRC this is official as of Serp's post near the end of D1)
COMPLETELY UNOFFICIAL BARE-BONES VOTE COUNT
huh what ( 5 ): Kilgamayan, Nobu, Kefit, Affinity, Bardiche
NeoSerela ( 1 ): Prody
Nobu ( 3 ): huh what, Chaore, NeoSerela
Zakeri ( 1 ): UncertainKitten
Not Voting: Choja, Polaris, Zakeri
Extension: UncertainKitten, huh what, NeoSerela, Polaris
huh what is at L-2!
With 13 votes in play, 7 votes are required to hammer. About 2 and a half hours are left in the day.
Hmm...the Serela wagon is the one that breaks down when switching to Huh What. This is intriguing. That slightly lends itself to Nobu being scum. Trouble is the people ON the wagon seemed fairly townie to me. Considering I know myself, and Prody has been flipped...
For completeness
VOTE COUNT
huh what ( 6.5 ): NeoSerela, UncertainKitten, Kilgamayan, Nobu, Kefit, Affinity, Bardiche (L-1)
Nobu ( 3 ): huh what, Chaore, NeoSerela, Zakeri
Kilgamayan ( 1 ): Zakeri, Bardiche, huh what
Zakeri ( 0 ): UncertainKitten
NeoSerela ( 0 ): Bardiche, Prody, UncertainKitten
Chaore ( 0 ): huh what, Nobu
Prody ( 0 ): Bardiche, Polaris, huh what
UncertainKitten ( 0 ): Chaore, Prody, Nobu, Kilgamayan
Bardiche ( 0 ): Kilgamayan
Polaris ( 0 ): Zakeri
Affinity ( 0 ): Chaore
Kefit ( 0 ): Kilgamayan
Extension: ( 6 ): UK, huh what, Neo, Polaris, Choja, Zakeri
No vote: Choja, Polaris, Prody
43 minutes left in regulation. 1 more vote needed for extension.
Regarding modkills and conflict resolution and such, that'll have to wait for Sakana to get on and weigh in.
Hmm...Honestly, wagon analysis doesn't lead me to many strong conclusions regarding Nobu/Serela.
I'm going to say though that the early wagon behavior COULD be a counter wagon, but honestly, there weren't even enough votes for that. If it was a counterwagon, Chaore's vote is by far the most interesting.
I'm going to have to ISO Kilga and Chaore now.
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Ah, missed something important
VOTE COUNT
UncertainKitten ( 3 ): Chaore, Prody, Nobu, Kilgamayan
Prody ( 3 ): Bardiche, Polaris, huh what
huh what ( 3 ): NeoSerela, UncertainKitten, Kilgamayan
Kilgamayan ( 1 ): Zakeri, Bardiche
Bardiche ( 0 ): Kilgamayan
Chaore ( 0 ): huh what, Nobu
Polaris ( 0 ): Zakeri
Affinity ( 0 ): Chaore
Kefit ( 0 ): Kilgamayan
Not Voting: Choja, Kefit, Affinity
With 13 votes in play, 7 votes are required to hammer. Approximately 25 hours are left in the day.
Chaore's vote history is really looking terrible at this point. I realize this was still his joke vote, but I mean, given his other votes...
Well, we still have to figure out what Nobu (and/or Serela) is to be completely conclusive.
Anyway, continuing my Kilga ISO.
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Ok, for serious, this (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,7063.msg436209.html#msg436209) is just weird. It has a lot of words but says very little, ESPECIALLY in places where little needed to be said. Your clearing of Prody was an unnecessary lecture in light of his win con quote. You even acknowledge this. Or at least that the roleclaim mattered. More subjectively, you have a soft defense of Serela going. Again, depends on the Serela/Nobu situation.
Finally, I don't mean to keep dredging up old cases, but could you link the post where HW says things that weren't true from your POV?
This, as mentioned (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,7063.msg436389.html#msg436389), clashes with your attitude today. I'll reread what you said changed when I get there.
...meh...I'm really not sure. I have a mixed opinion. The posts I didn't link, I didn't take issue with. I think the answers to my questions will help a little.
Haven't finished my ISO's but I'm happy with a ##Vote Serela to keep things interesting. We had the seeds for an interesting wagon duel yesterday. I wanna see where it goes for real today.
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Away from comp can't do a whole lot etc.
RE apparent stance flip, yesterday I thought huh what was scum, today I know he's town. I don't see how it's a scummy thing to change my mind in light of flips.
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Chaore's (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,7063.msg436006.html#msg436006) first serious post doesn't impress me. It's nice and all but...it assumes HW is town for reasons not really ever stated. Further, there's some eggos involved in his reads which bug me.
This post (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,7063.msg436231.html#msg436231) negates my last point. It makes a fair amount of sense too. Admittedly, Affinity later points out that this really should have been in the original post.
...unfortunately that's the last really opinionated post he makes.
Meh, Chaore on the whole needs to post more. His vote history doesn't help him.
Cut:
@Kilga: Rather defensive tone which is odd from you, but that's certainly acceptable. T'would be foolish to ignore flips :p.
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Yikes, I don't think quoting the complete votecounts is necessary. Just pick out the important parts or link them please. Those giant quotes are overdoing it a bit.
But more importantly:
VOTECOUNT
Nobu ( 2 ): Kilgamayan, NeoSerela
Kilgamayan ( 1 ): Affinity
NeoSerele ( 1 ): UncertainKitten
Not Voting: Choja, Kefit, Chaore, Nobu, Polaris, Bardiche
With 10 votes in play, 6 votes are required to hammer. Lots of hours are left in the day.
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Sakana, you missed UK voting me in her semilatest post
Haven't finished my ISO's but I'm happy with a ##Vote Serela to keep things interesting. We had the seeds for an interesting wagon duel yesterday. I wanna see where it goes for real today.
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Whoops, that was somehow embedded too well and escaped me. Thanks ;^^
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Sorry, I'll try to make them more clear next time.
Anyway, the quotes illustrate the VCs better in my opinion, since you can basically quickly compare them by having all the information in front of you, as opposed to having to keep clicking links to see change. VCs are about the only thing I think quote walls are warranted for.
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I apologize for the shitty contributions I've made thus far, but I'm going to try and make up for it tonight when I get home in about ~12 hours give or take? Before then I can't do much more than try to keep up and get the gist of things. This is my only expected extended downtime for the next few weeks or so.
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UK: There was only so much I could say in the limited time between church services and I felt that was the easiest thing to address (plus it came from more than one person). :V
Now that I am home, I can catch up proper and write something decent. Want to change out of these clothes first, though.
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Understandable. I didn't think you were ignoring the rest of what I asked, sorry if I came off that way :P.
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Hurrah D1. We have a lot of derp and lurk to go through, and as it turned out Huh What's actually town. Lesson for future town: if you can't defend against your accusers, find someone who's more suspicious.
Given Zakeri's jump on Nobu I am disinclined to think much of it unless scum wanted to avoid being on the same train. WIFOM there, but hey, good catch whoever busted him. Bit leery on how exactly Zakeri went on the kill AND got killed this night as evidenced by no Mafier kills, but I can't find any reason scum would want to kill their own.
Useless waffling aside, not too happy with Polaris song and dance about not voting and just generally being cake on hat. Hope that trend won't continue into the rest of the game, generally seeing him as a liability to town for not voting. Wouldn't support a push on him yet, but, going to mention him staying off all trains doesn't pain him in positive light. Derpscum just as likely as derptown etc.
This is also unimpressive (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,7063.msg436462.html#msg436462), as refusing to scumhunt and just piggyback on what others brought forth is never a trait I like seeing in my townies, nor is the asking around for extensions and yet doing absolutely nothing for the entiriety of D1.
NeoSerela raises my Not Pleased hackles by condemning the Huh What train as having scum on it while niftily avoiding doing anything D1. Certainly going to pay attention to that one, but maybe I just want to hit all lurkers with a bacon of death and be done with it. Lurking hurts town, etc.
Of course, soup du jours and all that. Main focus right now is Nat Tea, or whatever name you guys to refer to that person. (Repeating my request to refer to people by usernames so I know who the heck you're talking about[/u])
This is (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,7063.msg436227.html#msg436227) the first real post other than the "Hey guys I just got prodded and I don't know what's going on". "Delay my NK" in particular is what I am curious about and I'd like an explanation.
There's cheerleading the HW wagon[/b] but he never actually gets on board, and I don't like cheerleaders unless they are swinging pompoms around and wear short skirts.
He continues to declare [url=http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,7063.msg436265.html#msg436265]there is nothing to discuss (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,7063.msg436257.html#msg436257) while a majority of the active players disagreed. Not really impressed with all attempts to avoid having anything to do with D1. Claiming we'll only "actually have something to discuss D2" is even weirder considering the only vote he makes is one for an extension of D1.
TO top it off, wishywashiness (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,7063.msg436313.html#msg436313) which he attributed to HW as being scummy. So hey, by his own admission he is scummy.
##VOTE: Nat Tea
I'll look at Nobu in a moment but eh, my own case takes precedence right now.
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Ace, I fail BB code. Fixed below, not gonna bother with the errant [/u] because you guys can figure it out.
There's cheerleading the HW wagon (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,7063.msg436257.html#msg436257) but he never actually gets on board, and I don't like cheerleaders unless they are swinging pompoms around and wear short skirts.
He continues to declare there is nothing to discuss (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,7063.msg436265.html#msg436265) while a majority of the active players disagreed. Not really impressed with all attempts to avoid having anything to do with D1. Claiming we'll only "actually have something to discuss D2" is even weirder considering the only vote he makes is one for an extension of D1.
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Mmmkay.
I don't begrudge Affinity's general sentiment against me, because I'm not too terribly happy with my Day 1 myself (hopefully this offers additional explanation to any defensive tone my phonepost had; I came into today expecting people to be unhappy with me). There are a couple of things I take umbrage with, however.
- I don't like his harping on the whole ED1 thing. I don't care if it's ED1 or LD1, if I see something that I feel is ill-intended gotcha-gaming, I'm going to call it out. I saw it the huh what post that I attacked so much.
- huh what asked what he could have done to make me think he was scum less, I answered. Simple as that. That my answer happened to coincide with what other people had been ragging on him for is not something I see as particularly damning, given the incredibly broad nature of the answer. "Form solid opinions and make a good case or two" is how pretty much anyone can get me off their back on Day 1, and it can certainly work on following days, too. (It would be a good place for Nobu and Choja to start, for example.)
---
I also might as well post my entire thought process on UK pre-Zakflip, for all that it is worth now.
I went back and looked at her ED1 posting, and yes, there was a bunch of fluff posting, but looking at it on the whole, it felt far more tongue-in-cheek than ill-intended. Her whole approach to ED1 was excited to the point of being over-the-top. There was just so much of it and it was in such a cheerful tone that I can't see it as any sort of attempt at active lurking. It just looks like having fun with the day. This post (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,7063.msg435438.html#msg435438) is just one instance of what I'm talking about.
I do also remember someone (Bard maybe) of chalking up her initial huh what vote to gut, and while gut was cited, yes, she also cited a couple of circumstances surrounding Prody. It was hardly a "I have nothing but a hunch but it's a pretty good hunch" vote.
As I said, the problem I did have with her, in reflection, was with Zakeri; specifically, the instances where I felt she was making demands of him that seemed purely designed to make him look bad, rather than actually further her case against him. The first was trying to goad him into a vote, claiming he was too scared to vote her. He was on record, however, as still catching up with the game, and I feel it's bad form to demand someone vote when they're clearly not in a position to make an informed decision (such as not having had time to read part of the topic yet). The second was when he cited deadline concerns as a reason for not going back and re-grabbing every link she wanted him to, and she tossed this aside as "can't back up his case". There were less than two hours to deadline when he posted this concern, and I felt that the looming deadline was a fair reason for him to not take even more time to go back and grab a ton of links and slap explanations on each of them in order to cast a vote that wasn't going to matter anyway because UK was in no danger of a lynch at that point. In before someone points out UK was willing to move to Zakeri despit it being really late in the day, response is that he made it obvious he was willing to lynch her, she made it obvious she was willing to lynch him, casting a late-day vote on a person that isn't going to get lynched is done solely to demonstrate that you'd be willing to lynch them and they had both done that just via their words. I ask if his net day accomplishment would have been any different had he made a stopover on UK before finally landing on huh what.
But who knows? After seeing his flip, it seems likely he was just bullshitting up a storm in an effort to stall. So, well, yeah.
---
Speaking of UK, she has other things that need responding!
- I did actually take into account Nobu's low posting capacity in the post where I voted him, though it was sort of in a backhanded way so I can see why it would have been missed.
Even if this was due to outside circumstances, it still means there's nothing I can point at and go "well, this was pretty good".
Probably should have said "even though" instead of "even if", but hopefully the intent of the statement is clear enough. It is a shame that Nobu had/has limited game access, but it means that he has nothing in Day 1 that makes him look more town. I obviously can't just say "well I guess if he had been here he would have produced a bunch of townie-seeming content so I'll let him slide". As a result, all I can see of Nobu's Day 1 is a suspect huh what vote and no other meaningful contribution, because, for whatever reason, that's all that's there.
- The series of events I disagreed with huh what about can be found here. I'll quote all the relevant stuff so it's easier to see the sequence.
@ Kilga: Er, why was the argument that big of a deal? I felt it was mildly hypocritical of Nobu to say that he didn't see how discussion could come from jokeposts, then make a bunch of jokeposts himself. I suppose I could have stopped dragging it on when he said "because it's better than lurking?", but I don't see how what I did was actually scummy as much as just kinda unnessecary.
HW: If by "a bunch of jokeposts" you mean "one jokepost", then, uh, okay. They also came before he questioned the usefulness of jokeposting but that's probably just a semantics argument.
Leaving vote on huh what, his response to my vote for him seemed to detail events that, from my point of view, were not the events that actually happened.
You can go back and read the initial chain of Nobu/huh what events (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,7063.msg434944.html#msg434944) for yourself to see which interpretation you feel is more accurate, but I think it's pretty obvious that Nobu's posts were actually more serious after he said he didn't see how discussion could come from jokeposts, not less (as "then make a bunch of jokeposts" seems to suggest).
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Largely in Bard's camp for his Choja/Nat Tea case, I looked at his links and found myself agreeing with his conclusions. Voting for Serela I'm not as big on as I was yesterday - this can be seen telegraphed in my pick on Nobu and Choja/Nat Tea and NOT him in my day-opening post - because his D1 vote was on the guy I now suspect the most and not the mislynch. Still possible he's scum, I guess, but ScumSerela suggests TownNobu based on how the trains worked out, and I don't agree with that sentiment right now.
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Hmm...I guess that's reasonable. I differ in opinion on a couple things, (obviously), but that'd be beating a dead horse.
But, why Nobu over other possible suspects?
I don't buy that Nobu was serious at first. I interpret it more as "I don't know how this works, but I'll roll with it because others seem to be able to make something of it"
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@UK: What the fuck are you doing? Why are you voting Neo not out of finding him scummy but to try and continue a 'wagon-duel' that was coming up between him and Nobu? Why is Neo scum. I would like a case here, Not just the fact his wagon next to Nobu's was 'interesting' and could be interesting if continued.
@Bard: ...Okay you're going for lurkers, not scum at this point. I can't even say anything else about that post. -WHY-.
Going over the game again now, give me a moment.
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Well, the fact that Serela hasn't produced a lot of content kinda helps. And the wagon information from what I concluded from ISOs implies Serela will either flip scum or town that will lead us to finding scum.
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Cheerleading a train on a townie, not voting, claiming he can't participate in D1 but still vote to extend it, being wishy-washy about whether Kilga is town or if it's an elaborate trap only to conclude his conclusions are useless isn't scummy enough for you?
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@Bard: ...Okay you're going for lurkers, not scum at this point. I can't even say anything else about that post. -WHY-.
That's, uh, a pretty nasty painting of Bard's case. It's not like lurkers are a bad place to look for scum anyway, and Bard cites things that he feels are scummy in his case, not just "oh Choja lurked he must be scum".
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Oh, well then.
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Oh, missed this.
But, why Nobu over other possible suspects?
Because I like to look at wagons when making D2 cases, and his vote on the wagon that flipped townie stuck out like a sore thumb. I mean, I could have pursued Choja/Nat Tea or Polaris for being incredibly useless, but I'd rather go after someone I feel is being actively scummy than being passively scummy. (Not that the case couldn't be made that Choja/Nat Tea was being actively scummy, since Bard did it.)
I also wasn't feeling too much in the way of scum from the other people that weren't on the huh what wagon, though Chaore has raised an eyebrow for that nasty painting of Bard's case.
I don't buy that Nobu was serious at first. I interpret it more as "I don't know how this works, but I'll roll with it because others seem to be able to make something of it".
This was more or less my interpretation as well, actually.
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Choja:He's derp, as can be seen in his only other mafia game (Pesco's Piece of Shit PoS Mafia, unless I'm mistaken and I forgot he was in one of the anonymafias)
I can say I wasn't in any of the anonymafias, but I can't admit I'm not being very derpy right now.
He continues to declare there is nothing to discuss (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,7063.msg436265.html#msg436265) while a majority of the active players disagreed. Not really impressed with all attempts to avoid having anything to do with D1. Claiming we'll only "actually have something to discuss D2" is even weirder considering the only vote he makes is one for an extension of D1.
I only voted for the extension because I was still thinking about if I wanted to vote for huh what or Chaore; I didn't expect UK to change votes between when I voted for extension and the deadline.
That being said, since huh what is dead and all, I still am suspecting Chaore to be scum, especially with that statement saying that your case was awful when even I agree with most of it (since you've cited where I've made mistakes and all). It's made me worry about how credible Chaore is, really.
##Vote: Chaore
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I don't have much time to post this, and will be leaving soon for the rest of the irl day, so this will be a bit abbreviated.
Polaris is throwing out some wonderfully useless active lurking. There's this post (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,7063.msg435344.html#msg435344), where he notes that he doesn't like his Prody vote but declines to change it (yeah, I pointed this out yesterday). He eventually does change his vote...by unvoting and then not voting again for the rest of the day. He declines to scumhunt after this point, and instead only makes useless posts like this (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,7063.msg436319.html#msg436319), or makes non-scum hunting posts that seem useful for town but could have easily been made by scum, such as this vote count (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,7063.msg436462.html#msg436462), and padding his unvote with a vote for an extension (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,7063.msg436215.html#msg436215), and making a call for more extension votes (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,7063.msg436470.html#msg436470). This is active lurking if I've ever seen it.
Bard (and I think others) have suggested that Polaris might be derp town, but I don't buy it. While I've never played in a game with Polaris before, he had apparently "put [Prody] on a higher standard" (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,7063.msg435344.html#msg435344), which suggests to me at least that Polaris has some experience with Mafia.
##Vote: Polaris
I'm also totally cool with the Nat Tea case and would be willing to switch, but I like Polaris better for now. Nobu also looks bad and has been wonderfully useless, but he at least had a vote placed at the end of D1 so I'm not looking as closely at him right now.
Cut by Kilga: While I noticed that Nobu voted, I didn't effectively comprehend that he was on the huh what wagon. That makes him look about as bad as Nat Tea to me, and I would be willing to switch to a Nobu vote too now.
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Well, the fact that Serela hasn't produced a lot of content kinda helps. And the wagon information from what I concluded from ISOs implies Serela will either flip scum or town that will lead us to finding scum.
This is not explaining why he is Scum.
Explain why he is scum, not that you think he will flip scum or town. ANY flip helps with finding scum, this isn't some kind of specific thing to specific towns.
Cheerleading a train on a townie, not voting, claiming he can't participate in D1 but still vote to extend it, being wishy-washy about whether Kilga is town or if it's an elaborate trap only to conclude his conclusions are useless isn't scummy enough for you?
Kind of kneejerked on that reaction, but frankly something has been incredibly wrong with your cases so far in my eyes. Prody was a derptown you went after for an incredibly stupid statement, Neo you went on for simply NOT BEING HERE, and now you're going for another derp honestly. Choja did stupid things that make up a fine case against them if you assume he's good at this. I don't.
As for your case, Not voting can happen when you say, miss most of the day and expect it to be extended (We nearly got the extension after all), Also a misrep. He said he was terrible with D1, not that he couldn't participate in D1. It makes sense you'd want more time to try and do something you're not good at doing right.
I know town benefits from DECISIVE VOTING but being wishy-washy is bad play, not scumplay. Face it. New players and bad players don't know what the fuck to look for so their analysis is all over the place, and never certain because they don't know if they've missed something. Scum does it too on the fact that bad and new players are not town-specific. It's anti-town but not a scumtell by this. Criticize all you like for it, but it's not good proof of scumhood.
Cheerleading is however admissable and I really can't say anything against that claim, but he's been an idiot in all other aspects so I'm going to call derp over scum.
So yeah, you've been picking on the people making stupid mistakes the whole time. Your only deviation is when you take up the banner for lynching HW way after he looks to be done, and essentially regurgitating what had been said. It's uninspired and just a vote to get on the train. This means... Well, Congratulations. You've done almost no real scum hunting past picking on the bad players for being bad, while looking like you have.
##Vote: Bardiche I think I'm perfectly happy with my vote on you right now.
@KilgaCut: Everyone on his post is honestly lurking to some extent as I'm seeing it. That's why my first reaction was that. Lurking is a bad thing, but frankly this early I don't like seeing it so prevalent in the choosing method for lynches. My beef is more than that anyway, so yeah, bad painting, better representation after I figured out what I saw as wrong.
@KefitCut: Reads really similar to the Choja/Nat Tea case. Experience doesn't exactly mean Polaris is any smarter from playing those games as well- Some people never get the hang of Mafia. Polaris kind of looks like one.
...god damn, how long did I spend typing this thing? I need to learn to write quicker. And need to get food. How the fuck is it 6, I was typing a fucking mafia post, not war and peace!
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Unfortunately I don't share the idea that scum can be infallible. As I said before, derptown just as likely as derpscum.
D1, Prody declared he wasn't going to move his vote, there isn't a lot of srs going on, best case so far and saw no reason to move my vote until later.
Hey the people I think are scummy are lurking, I don't see how this translates to "you're going after lurkers!". No, I'm going after scum, and it's not my fault that they're lurking hardcore. Are you afraid I might go after you? After all, you fall in the same ballpark with the one exception that you've actually taken a stance on D1.
As I pointed out, what content was given is bad, useless content. No, I am not going to equate bad play to town play. Scum is just as likely to drop the ball and go all "Wheeeeeeee! Pants on heaaaad!" as any town is liable to do.
As for specific comments, saying "I'm bad at D1" repeatedly and not participating reeks of the former being an excuse for the latter. No, it isn't. No one's great at D1, but we all try. I don't think anyone should be permitted to do absolutely nothing worthwhile D1 and get a free blanket pass as "Oh you're just derptown, stupid mistake, could happen to anyone"... no, because everyone who was there did their very darn best to participate and make of D1 what they could.
I repeat: scum is just as likely to do dumb things as town is. Beside, Nat Tea's defence of "I'm bad at D1" implies they're familiar with Mafia and how D1 works out. I'm not going to judge people as "bad players" and then decide not to pursue anything on them. But I will judge people as pro-town, anti-town and pro-scum.
Idly, what happened to your Nobu case? You were on him yesterday, and people are piling on him now. Instead of pursuing that, you pursue me - I trust there's a sufficiently strong reason for that?
You've spent all of D1 just arguing why everyone's cases are bad with only one line dedicated to Nobu's scumminess, and a small paragraph about why Kefit and Kilga scale less on the scummy rating there. Given that those three were scummy to you D1, and their case has ultimately led up to a town lynch, you've nothing to say on the matter?
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Honestly what am I going to say, I called the wagon having scum on it and it's been pretty much proven. I'm not just going to regurgitate my D1 case and I've not seen any of them get any worse, even if Nobu continues to not be here- I can't and won't pick on the fact he's having issue getting time, not until it's frankly unbelievable.
And why I switched to you? I find you worse at the moment. THAT is why I am voting you. Is it completely unbelievable that I would infact go for you over a D1 case I made that hasn't changed at all? Kilga is getting better and frankly Kefit was last for a reason. Nobu remains where he is. If he keeps going for bad jumps I'm going to feel worse, and I still wouldn't mind his lynch, but you? You get my vote. You're continuing that trend I don't like and don't seem inclined to stop it.
I get that Derpscum is as likely as Derptown- That's why Wishy-washy isn't a scumtell. THAT'S why it's not a reason I take for lynching. And you've been using it as one.
Everything else is no tolerancy for Derp, Which... I get, and maybe I am too lenient, but at a point you're just shooting Derps in a barrel. Oh, and your hillarious tidbit about me being afraid of you trying to lynch me. Classy.
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En route back to Michigan. Should be back in a few more hours. Again, sorry. ;;
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Some flips lead to scum more truly than others.
He's scum because he hasn't displayed any town intent.
Happy?
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Oh, and vote analysis. Can't forgot vote analysis :P.
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In lieu of anything else to comment on, I have to admit I can at least see where Chaore is coming from in his arguments, as much as I find myself agreeing with Bard on most things. It's making me feel a bit better about him after that really nasty painting earlier. I find myself unlikely to vote him ahead of Polaris (c'mon, man, do something) or Choja (you claim you are "still suspecting Chaore to be scum"; what about him yesterday do you feel was a voteworthy offense? You never actually elaborated on that sentiment when you first made it, nor did you vote him) at this juncture.
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Alright. Finally back here. Probably going to bed right after I post, so go ahead and field any questions if there's something you want me answering before then. I'm sure i'll be sitting here for at least an hour catching up.
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Eh, trying to understand motivation here. I see you agreeing that I'm not entirely wrong but you choose to interpret things in a way different from me. Rather than conclude wishywashiness is scummy (to me, it is), you conclude it must be "derp" and thus cannot be a scumtell. Unfortunately wishywashiness isn't just derp, it's an excuse to not be accountable for your accounts. "I didn't vote because I was in doubt", "I ended up lynching town but I wasn't sure about it", "I want to have options to jump on either train at this stage but as I don't know which'll take off I won't join any".
As the case on me is entirely based on that you don't like my idea of who are scummy there is little else I can say. Yes, my suspects have low content, but that's not the only thing I fault them with and not even the biggest thing I hold against them. What's there is bad.
Still see no reason to get off of Nat Tea due to continued silence.
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Good morning~
VOTECOUNT
Nobu ( 2 ): Kilgamayan, NeoSerela
Kilgamayan ( 1 ): Affinity
NeoSerele ( 1 ): UncertainKitten
Nat Tea/Choja ( 1 ): Bardiche
Chaore ( 1 ): Nat Tea
Polaris ( 1 ): Kefit
Bardiche ( 1 ): Chaore
Not Voting: Nobu, Polaris
Polaris has been prodded.
With 10 votes in play, 6 votes are required to hammer. A little less than 48 hours left.
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There went my plans on sleeping early. An hour later, and I *just* got done with my reread/processing. My brain feels kinda mushy right now.
RE huhwhat/my exchange early D1: It's as Kilga/UK says. I know D1 starts rvs and ends srs bsnss, but how real cases evolve from rvs is still a mystery to me. At the time I still thought it was RVS phase and didn't interpret the 'serious' cases as actually serious. My post ending in ??? was half musing half hoping someone would explain how it works.
Re: wagon on me: Not much to say there in my defense. I realize my inability to play an active role in D1 + little content asides + bandwagony vote on a town flip doesn't exactly give me any townie cred to speak of. I parked my vote on HW because it was the most convincing at the time, and I never had sufficient motivation to move it off from what I could skim over as D1 came to an end. Someone said something earlier in the thread i'll keep in mind: "if you can't make yourself look less scummy, find someone else who looks scummier."
One person that sticks out to me amidst the muddle of processing all this at once, is NeoSerela. Particularly, on all (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,7063.msg436230.html#msg436230) the emphasis (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,7063.msg437712.html#msg437712) put on (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,7063.msg437735.html#msg437735) my mentioning of LAL as a reason to potentially switch my vote to Serela, when that was a growing sentiment started by Bardiche here (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,7063.msg435893.html#msg435893). (At that point I was trying to see if any stronger cases have cropped up and Neo's seemed like the only candidate outside of lolPrody, which is why I mentioned it, by the way.)
Eh, I realize now after looking back that UK already questioned Serela on that incongruency, but what I didn't see (and really what caught my eye) was this flipflop here on D1:
However, when people start voting lurkers on D1, isn't there usually like... everyone else going "LAL doesn't work that way, what are you doing, wait till D2"? Ehh, whatever, I'd probably be voting me atm if I were you people.
And then a few hours later:
The only contribution I really see from you is jumping on HW, and saying you're tempted to vote me for LAL. ha ha old chap LAL on D1. Also, we're the two non-you and non-lolprody wagons that have been here today. So... yeah. I see scummy intent there. You look worse then huhwhat to me, at the very least.
What's striking is that you suddenly started lauding the fact that I'd mention D1 LAL and single, yet just earlier admit that *you'd* probably vote yourself for the very same reason if you were someone else. It REALLY feels like you picked up the anti-D1-LAL stance just so you could make a good case on me.(And be wishywashy about the huhwhat bandwagon in the same post!).
Also, your defense of your vote in your latest post (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,7063.msg437735.html#msg437735).
I'm definitely being weary of Affinity now, with all his defense towards Nobu and how much he loved the huhwhat train yesterday. If Nobu flips scum, I'd be fairly sure Affinity is too. That's something to discuss tomorrow though, after we have said flips (Or later if Nobu isn't dead by then)
..when Affinity was clearly asking why I was *worse* than the others, not that I was the paragon of towniness and that you should be ashamed for voting me. I see no denial of my scumminess by Affinity, but not only do you get really defensive but you accuse him of being scummy because of it? Getting someone off your back and also pushing the topic aside at the same time.
Right now Neo's vote on me feels like it's because i'm an easy target, and it helps her avoid having to make good cases on other people or even going beyond the ~*quick analysis*~ phase with most. I'm going to call you on that last part too. I'm clearly not dead yet, so we have the time to discuss whatever it is you wanted to discuss.
##Vote: NeoSerela
(Holy crap, this took damn near three hours and I have work in the morning ;_; Guess it's my penance for being away.)
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EBWOP: On the reread, I realize that the last sentence doesn't flow in the way I wanted it to.
Re: wagon on me: Not much to say there in my defense. I realize my inability to play an active role in D1 + little content asides + bandwagony vote on a town flip doesn't exactly give me any townie cred to speak of. I parked my vote on HW because it was the most convincing at the time, and I never had sufficient motivation to move it off from what I could skim over as D1 came to an end. Someone said something earlier in the thread i'll keep in mind: "if you can't make yourself look less scummy, find someone else who looks scummier."
What I meant was that "Since I have no real way to defend myself as I acknowledge my scumtells, I will focus my efforts on finding/making a good case on someone instead of overexplaining what few actions I did. in D1."
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@Serela: I can see where you're coming from if you say that I'm slightly tied to Nobu, but I don't believe that I have, as he said, said that he was any more town or scum than Polaris and Nat Tea at that moment. Note that I have not defended Nobu's actions directly, but that I happened to have issues with many people who voted Nobu due to the fact that they were either defending huhwhat for very strange reasons or changing their votes weirdly.
Finally, I'll just have to add that I don't think bandwagon hops for agreeing with other people's cases are exactly very bad in early D1. Yes you can say that he hasn't made any original cases and stuff like that but it's okay to vote for someone else's reasons. Even Kefit and Kilga have expressed their support for voting Nat Tea in this manner, after all; there's nothing wrong with that. This is why I don't agree with the Nobu case.
Furthermore, I would like to say that:
The only contribution I really see from you is jumping on HW, and saying you're tempted to vote me for LAL. ha ha old chap LAL on D1. Also, we're the two non-you and non-lolprody wagons that have been here today. So... yeah. I see scummy intent there. You look worse then huhwhat to me, at the very least.
this quote clearly shows that you considered the 'not you not prody' thing a valid reason to assume scummy intent, which I still do not understand.
Furthermore, do make the case on me now, Serela. I'm interested in knowing what you have to offer against me.
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I generally agree with Nobu's case on Serela; that anti-lurking point is something that seems rather strong. I will also like to add that in this post (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,7063.msg436230.html#msg436230), he does not say a single concrete reason as to WHY he did not really agree with the huhwhat case, but says that 'he's willing to switch', as if he's avoiding a townie wagon on purpose. Lastly, there is the hypocrisy that he is screaming at all the 'derps' from previous game when in actuality he hasn't done much at all on D1; parking his vote on Nobu D1, not answering the various complaints levied against him, and asking others to contribute, which irritates me a little bit. Serela's lack of opinions on everyone as an answer to my post seems rather bad too. Since my issues with Kilga doesn't seem to be able to go anywhere for now (I still disagree with the ED1 thing but never mind), I'm willing to vote for Serela.
##Unvote
##Vote: NeoSerela
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As a note to Bardiche, and to some extent Kefit, I have to say that I agree with Chaore that while their cases against Polaris on Nat Tea have all the conventional brilliance and soundness, they are simply too easily made and obvious. Obviously, as new players, the posts by Polaris and Nat Tea would have all the scummy mistakes on principle that anyone could point out. It's rather possible for scum to park their votes on these liabilities without considering anything new that has happened with all the Nobu and Serela hanging around, and I fear that this will lead to us having nothing on them by late game. Basically, they are all stuck on D1 actions and mafia theory, and I would like to see them make cases which have real currency, or at least give us their consideration on them. Kefit especially has not given us anything of his scumhunting hireachy to work with (e.g why Polaris more scummy that Nat Tea, etc.) and he's suspicious in this respect.
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I still see no compelling case to equate acting scummy to not being scum. New or not, a scumtell is a scumtell, and I will hunt them. Again, I re-iterate, scum is just as likely to be derp as town is. There is no complicated mathematical formula that makes sure newbies are never stuck with the scum card.
I don't subscribe to "That's way too scummy, it must be town". One day scum will pretend to be all herpaderpaloo and you'll be caught with your pants down if you keep excusing derpplay as being too stupid to be scum.
Ironically I missed this as I replied to Chaore.
I only voted for the extension because I was still thinking about if I wanted to vote for huh what or Chaore; I didn't expect UK to change votes between when I voted for extension and the deadline.
Then why did you not communicate this? You had ample time and opportunity to make clear why you were voting for an extension and why you were still worried between choices of Huh What and Chaore. You never made a compelling case on either, and ultimately your vote landed absolutely nowhere. It is not conductive to scum hunting. Even if I ignore lackluster participation, everything that is there has still done little in the way of pointing in any one direction.
Perhaps you can clear up this matter right now. Why did you feel it was so difficult to make a decision between who to vote for to the point of never voting on anyone?
On the NeoSerela case, I express interest. I'm not immediately tempted to switch my vote to support that wagon at this point. I do want to request Serela also address the matter I raised earlier, particularly her ready calling of "scum on Huh What's wagon" while her D1 contributions came at a time most opinions had already been formed, and already she condemned and cheerled the wagon by that point here (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,7063.msg436230.html#msg436230).
Specifically I am referring to saying that he doesn't look as bad as people say, that NeoSerela doesn't mind if he gets lynched, but also rather sees another person voted. The keypoint here is that "he doesn't look so bad" followed by "I don't mind if he's lynched".
If you think someone doesn't look very scummy I would expect a somewhat fiercer push to get the one you think DOES look worse lynched, and none of this semi-approving attitude by saying you don't oppose the lynch of someone you didn't think of as very scummy.
I'd oppose a lynch if it was on people I don't think are scummy, so why not you?
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I think I may have to change my mind on Nobu vs. Serela. A lot of the case I would make against him would be rehash, but I'm going to try to explain my own stance as best I can regardless.
I hadn't noticed just how nebulous his stance on huh what was on D1, and it does indeed seem designed more to get town cred for not wanting to be on a town wagon than anything else (not to mention all the stuff Bard points at as being wrong in regards to "I don't think he looks that bad but I guess I wouldn't mind a lynch anyway").
The Serela/Affinity stuff...I have to admit I'm not 100% sold on there, as I could see how TownSerela could make the mistake of thinking Affinity was defending Nobu. However, the overreaction of "definitely being weary of Affinity now, with all his defense towards Nobu" feels less like a townie response than what he could have said, yeah.
The flip-flop Nobu pointed out is the most damning thing in my eyes. Since it wasn't explicitly stated, and it's a large part of the reason the flip-flop is as damning as it is to me, it is worth pointing out that the two (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,7063.msg436058.html#msg436058) posts (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,7063.msg436230.html#msg436230) Nobu quoted contain no contribution from Nobu on the subject in the meantime. In other words, Serela went from "I'd probably vote me for LAL" to "I think Nobu is scum for wanting to vote me for LAL" with zero additional Nobu input. There's no townie excuse for this kind of inconsistency, because a townie would actually believe the things they say and thus continue to hold the stances they hold if nothing appears in the meantime to change their minds.
Also relatively minor, but in thinking back on it, "I think there were scum on huh what's wagon (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,7063.msg437712.html#msg437712)" is a silly thing to say now considering Zakeri voted for him, to the point of looking like straight filler (which, really, the rest of his bullet points above that one also look like, considering how blindingly obvious they all are aside from perhaps the Polaris one).
Yeah, color me convinced.
##Unvote: Nobu
##Vote: NeoSerela
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Self-correction: I forgot Zakeri voted for Nobu, not huh what. Consider that particular point redacted, though my feeling about how much of that post was filler remains unchanged because, even though Zakeri wasn't on the wagon, "I think there were scum on [townie mislynch] wagon" is still an incredibly Captain Obvious statement.
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Well, I honestly cannot argue that there's anything wrong with the case on me at this point, nor do I think I can find someone scummier (and actually have enough people believe me, at least).
I also understand exactly how I got in this position, and that it is entirely my fault, and maybe I just shouldn't have signed up to play for this game. Mafia is not one of my text adventures, and just because I don't feel like posting in it doesn't mean it's okay for me to not do so, and even when I have posted I've been much lazier about it then in previous mafia games, and that has obviously shown in my lackluster performance this game.
Replacing out would be both skipping out on the consequence of my actions, and kind of mean to whoever replaced me (Assuming anyone even did), so I'm not even going to try that. Trying to look town by explaining myself IMO shouldn't save me because I look quite terrible and I'd have to basically rehash most of my opinions and throw previous ones away (Aka not explaining why my previous actions were not scummy), PLUS considering how I got into this position, I can't even say I'd actually follow through with that plan to a satisfactory level.
Err, apologizes for lol WoT. Anyway, here's for the part that might actually matter.
I am a Townie Cop. N1 I copped Kilga, and got a Town result. I copped him because, well, Affinity basically sums it up here]http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,7063.msg437732.html#msg437732]Affinity basically sums it up here (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,7063.msg437732.html#msg437732). He was a big person on huhwhat's wagon that flipped town, plus he's Kilga and he's scary. So I reread him and thought it was a good idea to cop. In hindsight, maybe I should have waited till N2 since he may have just been NK'd N1 due to being Kilgajesus, but he didn't, so that worked out!
I'll do a reread with a fresh mind hopefully within a few hours, and see if I want to change my vote; with the hope of getting someone who isn't me (and by principal of knowing my own alignment, more likely to be scum then me) lynched, however unlikely that may be to happen.
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...REALLY?
Hmm...not COMPLETELY sure I believe it, but I'm not sure I want to get into that right now.
At any rate, I...actually don't know what to do right now.
Hypothetically, if Serela is town, Nobu is more likely scum. But even then that was tenuous. I think Serela being scum would have correlated to Nobu town more.
I'll have to reanalyze the game at some point and relook over my thoughts. I THINK I want to vote Chaore but I have have to rereview that. Probably won't do that til later this evening since lol cookery.
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Oh, right, ##Unvote
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My thoughts: :derp: :derp: :derp: :derp: :derp: :derp: :derp:
Other than that, Serela, any particular reason you never even once hinted towards Kilgamayan being definite town during this Day? The only one you got a good town feeling over were UK and me; had you died today or this night without reveal, it'd be logical we'd assume you must've investigated one of us.
This makes me a bit leery because usually it's common and standard practice for the cop to at least breadcrumb a little on who they investigated, to say nothing of your quick give-up in the face of more than a day remaining. (granted, activity levels being what they are, I don't hold this against you too strongly, but.)
I'm going to sleep and see what I think in the morning. For now: :derp: :derp: :derp: :derp: :ohdear:
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Bardiche:I wasn't exactly expecting a bodypile on me today, although in retrospect, maybe I should have. Nor have I been aware of such a strategy before (I have played several mafia games on here but that's it, and come to think of it, did any of them even HAVE a cop? :derp:)
Anyway, even if I had been aware of such a strategy, I'd probably lean more towards just not saying anything about it unless it actually looked like I was going to die, on the offchance scum would pick up on the breadcrumb and NK me. It's not like, short of a dayvig from nowhere, I would actually die without seeing it coming in time to go "btw kilga is very definitely town."
It didn't help that there wasn't anything on D1 to give me a good reason to say he's probably town, either.
Also, I did this with so much time remaining so that there'd be time to actually let people USE said information I've revealed to help scumhunt, assuming they believed me. I highly doubted I could turn my wagon around otherwise anyway.
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EBWOP:About my second paragraph, just realized I could also be NK'd without seeing it coming so... yeah. Although in this situation (before my claim, at least) I definitely wasn't worried about that happening. A good thing about people not thinking you're town is scum is less likely to NK you. Otherwise I'd probably have been NK'd in SA Mafia, where I waffled between all the scum and scum!Pesco thought I was a cop :V
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wait. did you claim you actual rolename? if not, do so. If you are worried about doing that, ask Sakana or Serp.
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VOTE COUNT
NeoSerela ( 3.5 ): Nobu, Affinity, Kilgamayan, UncertainKitten
Nobu ( 1 ): NeoSerela, Kilgamayan
Nat Tea/Choja ( 1 ): Bardiche
Chaore ( 1 ): Nat Tea
Polaris ( 1 ): Kefit
Bardiche ( 1 ): Chaore
Kilgamayan ( 0 ): Affinity
No vote: UncertainKitten, Polaris
With 10 votes in play, 6 are required to hammer. There are about 31 and a half hours left in the day.
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I'm here. Gonna try to find something so that I don't have to make another wonderfully low-content post, but I have a feeling that that's what the next post is going to be regardless. >_>
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Please don't excuse future posts, Polaris. It's not good form. Do your best without a cute safety net of qualifiers.
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wait. did you claim you actual rolename? if not, do so. If you are worried about doing that, ask Sakana or Serp.
Village Sheriff
I'll try to get to that reread in a minute, since if I don't then it won't come for about 16 hours when I get home from school tomorrow, which would be yeah.
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Hmm.
Half credit.
You at least got village right. Sheriff is odd, but not necessarily completely out there. I was expecting Village Seer.
Not willing to lynch you at this time. I should probably do my own reread either tonight or tomorrow. More likely tomorrow cause I'm finding myself kinda irritable right now.
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I'm not sure how much I believe the claim. But I'm not sure I disbelieve it to the point where I'd be willing to keep my vote there...so.
##Unvote: NeoSerela
##Vote: Choja
Switching up to next-highest preferred case. Beginning of rumblings here (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,7063.msg436559.html#msg436559), agreeing largely with Bard's case (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,7063.msg437811.html#msg437811) here (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,7063.msg437837.html#msg437837), demonstrably not a fan of his lone post today here (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,7063.msg438427.html#msg438427), a response which contains an important question that is still unanswered. I'm not really thinking Chaore's a great vote target right now anyway, and especially not for the reasons Choja/Nat Tea has provided: Chaore has a very unique set of playstyle and scumtell opinions and simply being contrarian is not scummy when you're able to argue your positions properly.
However, I will say this, because I'm pretty sure I'm toast tonight regardless of what happens and I believe it's important town knows about this. I was told my role failed last night. Given what it is, I do not believe there is a risk of inherent failure in it, which highly suggests roleblockage to me. And now I have someone I'm highly suspicious of claim to have taken a night action targeting me, in a game proven to contain vanillas (important because more vanillas = fewer night actions = higher chance Occam's Razor applies). So...yeah. Still very leery in that direction.
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VOTE COUNT
NeoSerela ( 2.5 ): Nobu, Affinity, Kilgamayan, UncertainKitten
Nobu ( 1 ): NeoSerela, Kilgamayan
Nat Tea/Choja ( 2 ): Bardiche, Kilgamayan
Chaore ( 1 ): Nat Tea
Polaris ( 1 ): Kefit
Bardiche ( 1 ): Chaore
Kilgamayan ( 0 ): Affinity
No vote: UncertainKitten, Polaris
With 10 votes in play, 6 are required to hammer. There are about 24 hours left in the day.
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Really? Nothing from anyway? Bah.
Before I go to bed, while it's on my mind, if you stuck a gun to my head and asked me if I believed the claim...I would say no.
But, as the circumstances are vastly different from that hypothetical, well, you see where my vote is now.
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*Nothing from anyone
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@Serela: Why didn't you investigate Nobu instead? And if you agreed with my reasons for suspecting Kilga enough to mention it, then why would you approach me so vehemently early in the day as possible scum?
I'm not willing to believe Serela's claim. His responses to Bardiche's questions don't really seem satisfactory, and I simply don't see his thought processes very clearly in role-claiming this early, whether it be in on D1 or D2. "Sheriff" sort of goes with "lieutenant", but other than that, not very sure. It seems more like a interrupted cadence scum would give than town. Would rather lynch him today for the reasons already stated and glean some concrete flips than nervously deal with possibilities later in the game for now. Everything except his roleclaim points to him being scum.
I'm also rather bewildered that Kilga would reveal that he had a role so easily; since there was always the chance that Serela, if he was a cop, could have been an insane one. Seems rash to think that scum would automatically discount that possibility with a Kilga NK tonight, though it could be understandable too. An explanation would be nice.
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Regarding Kefit: On quick reread, Kefit's arbitary case on Polaris doesn't look so good here (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,7063.msg437938.html#msg437938). Keeps his options open by saying that he's willing to vote for three people, and does not explain as to why his Polaris case seems any better than the Nat Tea or the Nobu cases even though they are so similar and even though the Nat Tea case has more points to it (and more convincing and complete in general anyway).
Basically, his case is an explanation on Bard's opinion on Polaris too, but with a tacked on conclusion that he's 'not really derptown' without explaining why. Pretending to have an original case and not explaining why it's more convincing to similar cases is active lurking in my opinion and so I'm quite weary of him.
---
I'm okay with lynching Polaris at the moment for the sole reason that he's not giving us anything to work with. He did not commit to anything on D1, and if he does not commit to anything on D2, it's impossible to pin anything on him by bandwagon analysis, and he has to be eliminated before lategame before he becomes a liability. As for Nat Tea... he does seem to have stances (albeit weak ones), and so he's already slightly better, and so I'm willing to give him a newbie pass for another day to see what he can do. His conduct does not seem as malignant as Serela's or possibly Kefit's, at any rate, even though it can be said to be scummy, and thus he's the lowest in my lynching order out of the four.
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I don't mind so much revealing that I have a role because the nature of the setup (as Sakana explained it throughout the sign-up process) suggests there are plenty to be had. I would venture a guess that there are probably more roles than vanillas, but I guess I could be wrong.
More importantly, I did not want to kick the bucket without letting town know that there was most likely a roleblocker afoot, doubly so for it very possibly being the guy that has claimed cop. Assuming Serela is town, scum will know he's a sane cop (or possibly naive I guess but MotK has never done Naive/Paranoid outside of a Dethy setting iirc), and he's publicly fingered me as innocent, so we're both going to be very tough mislynches. However, since they apparently have a roleblocker, they can shut Serela down without killing him, leaving them free to kill me (because, honestly and with full blown inflated ego, if you were scum and had a vacuum choice between myself and Serela, who would you NK?), and I rather expect any docs in this game to be covering him instead of me given the claims that are on the table.
Or they could kill someone else entirely, but, uh.
I don't really want to explain any further than that. I spent a good 30 minutes going back and forth on what exactly I thought of the situation before I made my first post regarding it, and I've still sorta been going back and forth ever since. What I've put on the table, I feel is the maximum town benefit I can provide given my situation. Talking much more (especially about my role) will tell things I think scum are going to find more valuable than town.
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...educational failings now behind me, it seems I missed a bit going down. Unfortunately I'm having to run out the door for class again but I've got a good question I want out.
KIlga, your switch to Choja is actually kind of interesting, given it implies you've shut your Nobu Case down in favor of Bard's, any reason why? I didn't see one in the Neo switch.
Affinity, Can you do me one favor and stop using 'weary'? If you mean we put you on edge, that would be 'wary'. Thanks.
Post again after class, sorry. I thought I'd have more time than before since I'm out for less hours. Doesn't seem to be the case.
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Sorry, still haven't caught up. I overslept today. I'll look at Choja and Chaore at some point either before or after dinner. Preferably before but I have things to catch up with still.
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Chaore: I've changed my mind on Nobu for now because he went out and made a good, solid case instead of wallowing in the muck and doing nothing but defend himself. Yes, the case was on the eventual cop claim, but it was a good case nonetheless, and I have far from ruled out the possibility of ScumSerela even with the claim.
Choja, meanwhile, has still done nothing particularly good-looking or useful, and his case on you is incredibly lackluster. Very little effort appears to have been put into it, and there are parts of it that downright don't make sense, like citing how he had been suspicious of you in the past as a reason to vote for you even though he had never explained why he was suspicious of you. He has made no effort to try and sell it since then, either.
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Yeah I definitely don't like Serela's copclaim. It's easy for scum to claim town on others anyway.
I think Nat Tea looks worse and want her lynched. I can't think of anything Nat Tea actually provided and of course, given most games I see here have a lot of lurklurklurk on scumside as much as townside, and last game scum fell over themselves trying to get all the lurk-when-voted misery right, I don't think the entire disappearance act right now endears me to her much.
It looks like Chaore is still wandering off with his vote on me because it's still just a vote because three of my suspects have a common trait that I didn't even hold against them as the strongest reason for scumminess, and I think that's a severe misrepresentation and teeters on the brink of scumminess for keeping it up even in the face of agreeing Choja's cheerleading looks bad but still passing it off as :derp:.
The two people I hold in best regard are Kilgamayan and UncertainKitten so far in regards to Actual Production Of Comment against Actual Worth of Said Production, whereas Nat Tea scores tremendously low that she has little but what she says is also absolutely useless, wishywashy, waffley and even cheerleading at some point, whereas NeoSerela throws in the "Hay dar I am cop" roleclaim a bit too easily.
Or is that picking on the derptown again? :derp:
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I guess the sarcasm isn't endearing. What I mean to say is that I don't think I am picking on "derp" people. I'm picking on scummy people whose actions others may perceive as "derp". I just don't think I should arbitratily throw something away I'd hound ANY OTHER PERSON OVER just because this person is new. Again, derptown just as likely as derpscum. Derp is derp, but it's not an alignment radar. If the derp falls on the scummy side of things it's scummy.
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@Serela: Why didn't you investigate Nobu instead? And if you agreed with my reasons for suspecting Kilga enough to mention it, then why would you approach me so vehemently early in the day as possible scum?
If Nobu was town, I didn't really think I'd have a huge influence over stopping a lynch if one was going to happen without my knowing he was town. Plus schizophrenically calling all the correct people as town="His play is eh but gets all the alignments? Scum.", so it really wouldn't have been hugely helpful.
Knowing if Kilga was scum or not, on the other hand, might have been.
At the case on Choja, his other game he's played on here his preformance was (no offense) laughable and also demonstrated some lack of comprehension (For example, after claiming SK, asking for guidance on who to kill; during the time the thread was in night and no one is allowed to talk. I giggled when Pesco edited his post into "stfu") I'd be shocked if Choja actually DID present a decent level of play now, same with Polaris (The previous Moriya Mafia was his first and it was... well, Polaris tried, I can definitely say that much. Was similar to my first game. The situation even allowed for a fairly good case on Polly being scum to come up, which was... well, yeah.)
Since they could be derpscum as likely as derptown, and since they would definitely be a liability to town lategame, I have to admit that I'm not opposed to lynching them ("Them" as in, Polaris and Choja). However, I do think it's not terribly productive, and I'm not really going to actively chase them right now.
Given that Nobu is apparently replacing out, I'm going to hold off on that case until I see how his replacement acts. Hmm, who does that leave... well, still think UK/Bard are town, and I know Kilga is town, so... leaves Chaore, Kefit, and Affinity. Rereading now. Oh and #Unvote
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Reread Chaore, I'm really liking him actually. I could even get behind his case on Bard, but atm I'm not going to bother going down that road. Maybe tomorrow with more flip data I'll revisit? Ehh, looking into the future like that is almost worthless in terms of being productive (Although it's fun to do) due to all the things that could happen.
Bard (and I think others) have suggested that Polaris might be derp town, but I don't buy it. While I've never played in a game with Polaris before, he had apparently "put [Prody] on a higher standard" (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,7063.msg435344.html#msg435344), which suggests to me at least that Polaris has some experience with Mafia.
It's worth noting that Prody never played mafia here as far as I know, so even if Polaris DID have mafia experience, he couldn't have any real reason to put him on a higher standard. Also, Polaris has no mafia experience. If you take a peek at Moriya Shrine mafia (His first game, he's Steven Stone btw if you look), you'll probably agree that yes, Polaris is very certainly derp, regardless of alignment.
You also say in that post you're totally fine with the Nat Tea case. I understand targeting Polaris being a mistake due to just not having the information on his mafia experience, but BOTH of the newbies? Hmm. Well, whatever, I don't feel like I have enough to make a nice case here, plus I could just not be seeing things in the right light atm. But I suppose I'll keep this in mind once D3 starts and we have our new flips.
Aaaannd now for Affinity. Bluh, this is a lot more to read then the other two people had.
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Anything else today seems quite insignificant, other than Prody's breaking of the rules and NeoSerela's rather strange disregard of all that has been said against him is awful. Serela's analysis also consists of, uhh... a very bad case on Nobu, meaningless prods, and nothing else. Second in line for me today.
I like my case on Nobu~n though ;_; Anyway, what I quoted this for was; what meaningless prods are you talking about?
I guess... as far as D1 goes, most of the things I don't like about Affinity come from how much he encouraged the HW case, a case I didn't really think was all that scummy. D2, yes, I misinterpreted his words as defending Nobu. Although they could still be considered... uh, is that what a chainsaw defense is? Defending someone by attacking their attacker? I really don't know. Eh, w/e.
this quote clearly shows that you considered the 'not you not prody' thing a valid reason to assume scummy intent, which I still do not understand.
No, what I meant by that was more of "The two wagons that aren't retarded/on himself anyway". It was meant to emphasize my reasoning with the OTHER two wagons more, and the 'not you not prody' wagons to be completely insignificant, instead of part of the reason themselves.
Anyway, my D1 Nobu case wasn't the best, I suppose. It kind of just happened to get better as time went on, which is unrelative, so. Err, where am I going with this point? I forgot. W/e. Moving on.
Hmm... I suppose Affinity isn't all as bad as I originally thought without rereading him, but that's what rereads are for, so. I also kind of like how he goes after Kefit for basically the same thing I said, except much more fleshed out and into an actual point.
Hmm... I guess I'm considering voting Kefit, wouldn't mind a Nobu lynch since I'm mostly only holding off due to him replacing, and won't mind having to vote Choja or Polaris for "Not Me Instead of Me" if need be. Considering it's nearing the end of the day and I'd like to not die, I'll just go ahead and ##Vote:Choja for now. If a Nobu or Kefit lynch becomes possible then I'd rather vote on one of them then Choja, although I'm still feeling iffy on whether I'm sure I want to vote Kefit or not.
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Regarding Kefit: On quick reread, Kefit's arbitary case on Polaris doesn't look so good here (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,7063.msg437938.html#msg437938). Keeps his options open by saying that he's willing to vote for three people, and does not explain as to why his Polaris case seems any better than the Nat Tea or the Nobu cases even though they are so similar and even though the Nat Tea case has more points to it (and more convincing and complete in general anyway).
Basically, his case is an explanation on Bard's opinion on Polaris too, but with a tacked on conclusion that he's 'not really derptown' without explaining why. Pretending to have an original case and not explaining why it's more convincing to similar cases is active lurking in my opinion and so I'm quite weary of him.
Indeed, the cases against Choja and Polaris are very similar. I prefer the case against Polaris because I've been keeping an eye on him since I called him out mid D1, and he's done absolutely nothing to help his case since then. In fact, he's made things much worse by being all but completely absent today.
I don't see his play as derp. Derp is running around like a chicken with its head cut-off - unsure of rules, unsure of proper procedure, unsure of how to catch scum, unsureness in general, and generally presenting an image of being clueless. For instance, I consider waffling back and forth on one's vote to be derp. On the other hand, not placing a vote at all is scummy. It's worse than simple lurking, since it prevents a player from having to make their stance known on something that will be confirmed upon alignment flip.
Then again, I'm not sure why you are attacking me on my vote for Polaris, and in fact blatantly misrepresenting it as "arbitrary", seeing as you immediately raise the case against Polaris on the same basis I have - lack of contribution:
I'm okay with lynching Polaris at the moment for the sole reason that he's not giving us anything to work with. He did not commit to anything on D1, and if he does not commit to anything on D2, it's impossible to pin anything on him by bandwagon analysis, and he has to be eliminated before lategame before he becomes a liability.
If this is what you believe, why don't you place a vote on Polaris? You're making me a bit wary now, with your misrepresentation of my case, weak attack on Kilga's softclaim, and failure to put your vote where your mouth is. But that's something I can store in the back of my mind for now, because:
Polaris needs to go. He's hasn't done a damn thing today aside from making this short promise to deliver content that has not been fulfilled (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,7063.msg438932.html#msg438932). Even Choja has at least made his opinion known and placed a vote (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,7063.msg437916.html#msg437916) today. Barring something unexpected, my vote on Polaris will not change today unless Polaris posts real content of some kind AND places a vote.
Re Neo: The cop claim does seem awfully convenient, especially given the roleblock on Kilga last night. On the other hand, I'm not finding Neo's behavior this game to be as scummy as everyone else seems to think. The waffling on stances explicated by Kilga here (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,7063.msg438789.html#msg438789) strikes me as more confused derp (inconsistency due to stupidity) than anything particularly scummy.
I'm inclined to agree with what Kilga implied here (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,7063.msg439572.html#msg439572). Scum's actions tonight will probably provide some strong evidence towards the verisimilitude of Neo's claim, and I would prefer to wait for that evidence rather than lynch Neo now and possibly regret it.
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@Kefit: I thought the case was rather arbitrary because although you did point out the bad points of Polaris, you never made clear why you wanted to vote Polaris over Nat Tea even though the reasons were pretty much the same. And you never said why you 'didn't buy that Polaris was derptown'. Your scumhunting hireachy; your lynching order, was not really explained, which made things suspicious especially since the cases had similar reasons. Furthermore, you have not said a single word regarding any player other than huhwhat, Serela, and the newbies, which is also sad.
I prefer the case against Polaris because I've been keeping an eye on him since I called him out mid D1, and he's done absolutely nothing to help his case since then. In fact, he's made things much worse by being all but completely absent today.
It doesn't really seem to apply to the time where you made the case. Why did you think Polaris more scummy than Nat Tea then?
Also, I vote Serela because I'd rather lynch him for now (though he seems slightly better after a few posts) than Polaris. He strikes me as more actively scummy and a little more unredeemable. Four mouths but one vote. And it was more of a question than an attack. Will be back to consider things in around 7 hours time.
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Turns out I ISO'd Chaore already, but he's added new stuff. New stuff that rubs me weirdly. On the one hand, his posts seem pro town...but...on the other I see a lot of defending other people and not really attacking. Bardiche, sure, but I just plain don't like that case.
Regardless, for the time being his question style reminds me of what I do when I'm lost and want to get more bearings, so I'm willing to just keep an eye on him...
I'll read Nat Tea now.
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Wow. This is...impressive. I've never seen so many posts say so little when they should say more. I know this is likely to just rehash the case against Nat Tea, but what the hell I'll do it anyway.
This is PAGE FIVE (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,7063.msg436227.html#msg436227), with a wagon at L-2, a wagon he's QUESTIONED. And his post is...that. It says nothing. It's a paragraph of nothing. I let the "accident" thing confuse me since I was focused else where. But it's nothing.
This (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,7063.msg436247.html#msg436247) is mildly better but still rather bad. The mountains out of anthills comments particularly strikes me, since I think scum are more likely inclined to see D1 casing as bullshit. It's only a slight tell though.
Next post explains the accident, not notable in any alignment.
This (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,7063.msg436265.html#msg436265) is just weird. Why would HW get NK'd? Anyway, it also basically just softly agrees with me while putting up the D1 shield. I don't like it.
What is this? (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,7063.msg436313.html#msg436313) Ok, fine, sometimes waffling is derp. But...you aren't even willing to vote, even at this point. wat?
And what is this? Just what? (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,7063.msg436495.html#msg436495)
You...are? (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,7063.msg437916.html#msg437916) When did you suspect him in the first place? What's the case on him?
As I said, if most of this has been observed already, sorry, but I'll admit, this is a pretty bad ISO
##Vote: Choja
(Shouldn't need to unvote since I unvoted Serela a while ago)
I feel that Serela shouldn't be lynched today, if it weren't obvious. And, secondly, I don't THINK my tone is bad in this post, but if it is, please tell me and I'll be mindful of it in the future.
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@UncertainKitten: I'm fine with that. Besides, it was obvious that I was tripping over myself almost every time
Anyways, since no one is going to trust me now or later on, I guess I'll just go for it.
I claim myself to be a Normal Townie. If you don't think that I am such, I do not mind.
I'm sorry for playing so badly, but I'll explain more after the game finishes. Maybe.
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...as your official rolename, really? Or paraphrasing.
Seriously, I'd like people to claim their ACTUAL ROLENAME in the future as opposed to paraphrasing.
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...as your official rolename, really? Or paraphrasing.
Seriously, I'd like people to claim their ACTUAL ROLENAME in the future as opposed to paraphrasing.
Okay, whatever, actual rolename: Vanilla Townie.
I was just worried about Serela not getting an answer for if there was consequences for that, alright? Geez.
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Lynch Choja, he's fakeclaiming.
The correct vanilla is Vanilla Villager
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Have fun then, UK.
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Well, if you DO flip Vanilla Townie, I'll take my hat off to Sakana for being a good mod. Regardless, the incorrect claim added to your behavior fails to make me sympathetic.
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EBWOP: Not necessarily to say that not including a flavor inconsistency makes you a bad mod. But using flavor to screw up players who want to outguess you is a pretty exceptional tactic, and one I enjoy.
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I already know I'm a train wreck right now and I already stated that I didn't expect anyone to trust me after that point. Don't get soft, UK.
I could have remembered the role name wrong, but the strike should be swift and painless, right?
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...you didn't check your role PM when I asked? Cause that was what I meant when actually saying your rolename
Unfortunately my role name shenanigans are pretty much moot at this point since I've revealed how I've been using them (if it wasn't already obvious)
I wasn't planning to go soft, merely complimenting the mod if he did something exceptional.
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I don't like all this giving up. You may not mind, but we in fact do mind with regards to your alignment.
Meh, since NeoSerela doesn't seem near to being lynched today, I guess I'll just go with the flow and ##Unvote. There are more irritating things for scum to claim if he is one (tracker), and claiming cop is bound to help us in any case, on second thought. Furthermore, while his token comments on other players do seem better than anything that he did this game (I might have went to Polaris if he had not claimed), it just cements the fact that the roleclaim came a little too early for me to really trust. I don't have much faith at all in him being town.
With Nat Tea breaking down, I guess I'll hop onto the Polaris case as an alternative, since he put in absolutely no effort on D2. I thought he would give something, but time is running out and while I could certainly excuse a newbie being quiet for D1 (it's a crapshoot, really), being quiet for D2 pretty much means that he would quiet for D3 too. Not saying that Kefit looks anything better as a result though with his lack of looking at other players and focusing only on Polaris, but I'm game for a Polaris vote. Not willing to vote Nat Tea as much for now due to him trying his best to play in my view, which is better than Polaris in many ways; there's an attempt to make cases with reasons (e.g Chaore says his previous case was bad, so I think he's scum), though it does not really work on D2, and some opinions on D1 which have a wider breadth than Kefit's rather tunnel-visioney and methodical way of playing. Thus,
##Vote: Polaris
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Voting for Polaris at this point seem kinda moot. I'd be surprised if mod lightning wasn't going to strike him down soon.
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Or maybe not since I misremembered exactly how long ago it was since his last post.
I'd hardly count that post as a post, though, so I dunno.
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Alright, it's been over 72 hours since the start of the day, so I think it's safe to say that voting is closed. Sakana will resolve the day when he shows up.
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Argh, what the hell... just how to resolve all that now >_<
Not in a state to write flavor right now, you will get more when the next day starts.
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~ DAY 2 ENDED ~
FINAL VOTE COUNT
NeoSerela ( 1 ): Nobu, Affinity, Kilgamayan, UncertainKitten
Nobu ( 0 ): NeoSerela, Kilgamayan
Nat Tea/Choja ( 4 ): Bardiche, Kilgamayan, NeoSerela, UncertainKitten
Chaore ( 1 ): Nat Tea
Polaris ( 2.5 ): Kefit, Affinity
Bardiche ( 1 ): Chaore
Kilgamayan ( 0 ): Affinity
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Nat Tea, Vanilla Villager, has been deadline-lynched.
Polaris, Village Hunter, has been struck down by lightning for blatant doing.... nothing. His ability does not activate due to modkill.
You are the Village Hunter.
Wherever you go, you always carry your trusty rifle with you, trigger at the ready, your eyes on your prey.
If you're gonna go, you're gonna take someone with you!
Throughout the game, you can ##target a single player. You PM your choice to the Mods and can change it as often as you want at any time.
The moment you die you will fire a last shot and kill your current target.
Nobu's situation regarding a replacement is still unresolved. Should a replacement not be found during the first 24 hours of the next day, he will be modkilled.
-----------------------------------------------------------
It is now NIGHT 2. You have 24 hours to send in Night-Actions.
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The usual round, as he did it each morning.
Yesterday had been... strange.
He hadn't expected to have to stab another person, but there had been no choice.
And another Villager had been hung.
"And then, there's this..."
He looked around to Nobu, who was following him.
No life was left in his eyes, his mind had shut itself in due to a mistake the Stranger had made.
"Well damn, just what to do with this one now."
He entered the first house and immediately recognized the smell of blood.
"Huh, so they got you this time..."
He looked at the decorations in the house.
Maps of the stars, a glass-orb, tarot cards.
This was the house of a Seer, and lying on the ground was the body of its owner.... Kilgamayan.
He was dead, no mistake on that, but....
The Stranger looked around, then grinned.
"Maybe..... yeah, that sounds like a plan. Don't really wanna have to stab another one of you guys."
He made sure that noone was looking, then began the ritual.
His hands glowed gold as he drew out the soul of Nobu from the mindless body and guided it over to the dead body on the ground.
As the transfer was completed, Nobu's body fell dead to the ground, Kilgamayan however.....
"You have been reborn to carry on the legacy, and the burdens, of the one called Nobu. His soul rests within you now.
Kilgamayan, the Seer, is dead. You are now.... Yamameko no Naku Roda ni... the body brought alive to replace the one that was lost.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
This may seem like an unusual decision (though I heard it is not without precedent), but Serp and I have deemed it pretty fair after looking at the current situation, as it does not give anyone any major advantages. Complaints may be filed later, but are likely to be blatantly ignored~
Kilgamayan, Village Seer, has died.
You are the Village Seer.
With your psychic abilities, you can ##investigate a single target each night to find out about its alignment. You choose the target via PM at night.
Yamaneko no Naku Roda ni has replaced Nobu and taken over all his potential roles, alignments and powers.
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It is now Day 3. You have 72 hours to decide on a lynch.
With 7 left alive, it takes 4 to lynch.
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Before anyone cries foul, I was not told the result of my investigation last night. All this really does is "confirm" that I was telling the truth about my role failing Night 1, which means I was effectively a Vanilla anyway (the role PM you see posted is all I saw, minus flavor). In the best spirit of the game I can muster, I will decline talking about either of my two targets.
Having said that, I think oldme's flip makes it pretty obvious what oldme was trying to do yesterday, even if you're not me.
##Vote: NeoSerela
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Serela, what was your result for N2?
Flip pretty much confirms Serela as scum, but I'll ask anyway.
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... O...kay. Uh-huh. Yeah, I don't think it's even possible to argue NeoSerela's a Cop here, because the Cop just died and having multiple cops in a single game seems a bit suspect.
##Vote: NeoSerela
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Okay, I understand why Kilga said that he had a role now in any case.
In the meantime however, since a Serela lynch is probably the conclusion to today, we should use this as a free day to discuss opinions. I remember making the mistake of voting scum to L-1 sometime ago, so yeah...
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I'm very wary of Kefit because he has been on easy people for easy reasons throughout the entire game with little or no opinions on other people. I'm also not liking how, out of the five people he has discussed at all, (Serela, prody, Polaris, Nat Tea and huhwhat) he has discussed Serela the least, before the copclaim. Kefit hits Polaris and Nat Tea and Nobu here (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,7063.msg437938.html#msg437938), but curiously, does not mention Serela. He does mention him in his later post (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,7063.msg439695.html#msg439695);
On the other hand, I'm not finding Neo's behavior this game to be as scummy as everyone else seems to think. The waffling on stances explicated by Kilga here strikes me as more confused derp (inconsistency due to stupidity) than anything particularly scummy.
but not in much detail. It came too late to be useful too. Sadly, it also directly contradicts with what he said earlier in that post.
or instance, I consider waffling back and forth on one's vote to be derp.
Such selective scumhunting, in favour of Serela even, is extremely scummy to me, since he used it against Polaris and not against Serela without further reasoning. Combined with having a ghostly-like aura now in all his easy targets flipping town, he is thus worthy of a vote.
##Vote: Kefit
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Wow, that's, uh.
Kilga really messed things up by claiming he had a role and becoming the more satisfying NK (Plus I didn't do as much as I hoped I would). It was a really crazy gambit I did to attract the NK (And also done to hold off my otherwise inevitable lynching, for otherwise I would not have done it).
I'm actually a Village Healer. I can protect myself, too, so I figured I'd copclaim, hopefully get the NK while protecting myself. But I kind of still looked bad, PLUS Kilga went and claimed a role so obv. scum NK'd him instead.
I WOULD have protected him last night instead, BUT, I can't protect the same target two nights in a row. And I protected him N1. I wasn't entirely sure he was town after that still (Zak dying could possibly have stopped an NK) but I had enough reason to think that for my crazy tactic.
I've probably ALREADY missed my school bus by typing this, gotta run. Be back after school.
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And were you roleblocked, or not? Notwithstanding whether I buy your story at all (townie gambits only work under circumstances that were not present here), but I now need to know this.
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Bluh, I indeed missed my bus.
To my knowledge, no, I was not roleblocked. And no, I don't really expect people to believe me, but it's true.
(townie gambits only work under circumstances that were not present here)
Yeah, I was mostly just trying to delay my lynch, since I think we can agree I would have been otherwise. Hoping to stop the NK by attracting it was more of a "Hopefully it will, but..." thing. I really do wonder if it would have worked if Kilga hadn't claimed powerrole, though. Eh, whatever.
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I say that those circumstances were not present because:
A) There was nothing to be GAINED from the fakeclaim.
B) Fakeclaiming a Cop will ALWAYS, ALWAYS earn the scrutiny of the real Cop, and invariably make them drop hints about their presence. This never favours Town because the actual Cop will be forced to contest the Copclaim because lying isn't Town.
Admittedly sometimes I go against that sentiment (see: anonymafier), but in this case the cons far outweigh any merit, especially given you could've turned the whole thing round and round a lot still.
I don't believe the "I wasn't roleblocked" thing, but the reasoning is nested in WIFOM and I am unwilling to tread on that heavily.
I would like explanation why you think jeopardising the Cop's identity seemed like a good idea to you at the time, and why you gave yourself Highest Priority by claiming Cop, whilst 'clearing' Kilgamayan and thus lending him as a good alternative kill. You implicated him to scum by clearing him under authority of a Copclaim, which should always be a good alternate choice if you fear the Cop might be doc'd. The lack of roleblock is still baffling, though, so explanations.
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@Serela: Not buying it. By claiming correctly as doc (if you were one) you could have invited more WIFOM games that scum would have to deal with during the night (since you could invite the NK the same way without giving Kilga away as a confirmed townie and lying, and make scum wonder who you are protecting). It also makes absolutely no sense for scum not to roleblock you (given that Kilga was roleblocked on N1 and you claiming cop on D2, I don't see what scum would have to lose in preventing you from giving an investigation result). Furthermore, your lynch was not inevitable on D2 by any means and I do not understand why you keep saying as such. It's probably inevitable now though, what you said fits far more like a scum gambit than a town gambit, and you ended up killing Kilga directly or indirectly by making him stand out as a confirmed townie.
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B) Fakeclaiming a Cop will ALWAYS, ALWAYS earn the scrutiny of the real Cop, and invariably make them drop hints about their presence. This never favours Town because the actual Cop will be forced to contest the Copclaim because lying isn't Town.
...honestly, I think that unless it's likely only one scum is left or it's LyLo or somesuch, a cop revealing themselves to be a cop due to someone roleclaiming is stupid. It's not like it's bad to go "I don't believe your claim", especially in this case we have here. Claiming on the other hand, just signs you up to get NK'd. That's pretty damn anti-town of the cop to do, since the cop is such a useful role.
I do understand how that makes sense if people actually believe the guy fakeclaiming, but in this case, really? The best I got was "I'm not sure if I believe it or not", most people at least leaning towards not believing, I was still likely going to be lynched soon... why p.much sign yourself up for an NK just to make me look a little more suspicious, and as such deny the town of their ACTUAL cop?
I would like explanation why you think jeopardising the Cop's identity seemed like a good idea to you at the time, and why you gave yourself Highest Priority by claiming Cop, whilst 'clearing' Kilgamayan and thus lending him as a good alternative kill. You implicated him to scum by clearing him under authority of a Copclaim, which should always be a good alternate choice if you fear the Cop might be doc'd.
I... didn't think about how it would be implicating him. I was just thinking "Well, I have good reason to believe he is indeed town, and good enough reason to have investigated him...". And claiming anyone I copped to be scum would a helluva lot worse unless by some miracle enough town decided to lynch them AND they flipped scum.
tbh Kilga or UK probably would have been the NK N2 anyway, but that's only speculation
oh affinityninja
@Serela: Not buying it. By claiming correctly as doc (if you were one) you could have invited more WIFOM games that scum would have to deal with during the night (since you could invite the NK the same way without giving Kilga away as a confirmed townie and lying, and make scum wonder who you are protecting).
Unless Docs usually cannot doc themselves, I didn't think this would work as well. I also hadn't realized the problems with the other strategy.
It also makes absolutely no sense for scum not to roleblock you (given that Kilga was roleblocked on N1 and you claiming cop on D2, I don't see what scum would have to lose in preventing you from giving an investigation result)
Why are you jumping towards scum having the roleblocker so quickly? It could just as likely (or more likely, due to probabilities and randomly assigned roles) that Town has it.
you ended up killing Kilga directly or indirectly by making him stand out as a confirmed townie.
K, not going to try to say I didn't do anything stupid here, but if I was scum lying about being a cop in that N2, wouldn't I want to NOT nk the person I claimed town, so that after I die they're surrounded with a massive cloud of WIFOM and town might end up lynching them?
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It's not like it's bad to go "I don't believe your claim", especially in this case we have here. Claiming on the other hand, just signs you up to get NK'd. That's pretty damn anti-town of the cop to do, since the cop is such a useful role.
But counterclaiming ensures that scum get lynched. This is based on the premise that town does not lie. This is why you are more anti-town than everyone else.
nless Docs usually cannot doc themselves, I didn't think this would work as well. I also hadn't realized the problems with the other strategy.
Scum don't know that, and usually to my knowledge here, they can self-protect.
Why are you jumping towards scum having the roleblocker so quickly? It could just as likely (or more likely, due to probabilities and randomly assigned roles) that Town has it.
Fair; I suppose I thought you were scum too much all this while. But usually, I have not heard of a town roleblocker being used in MoTK before (though it's possible).
K, not going to try to say I didn't do anything stupid here, but if I was scum lying about being a cop in that N2, wouldn't I want to NOT nk the person I claimed town, so that after I die they're surrounded with a massive cloud of WIFOM and town might end up lynching them?
... possible. But since Kilga would be town in that case and since he declared he had a role, wouldn't scum want to get rid of him in fear of some results? I think what you denied is the more plausible option. It's WIFOM but scum have more to gain by doing the option I suggested.
And since you did something stupid, and since this (unlike townie mistakes in voting and making cases for example) actually results in tangible harm towards town, you still deserve to be lynched regardless.
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...honestly, I think that unless it's likely only one scum is left or it's LyLo or somesuch, a cop revealing themselves to be a cop due to someone roleclaiming is stupid. It's not like it's bad to go "I don't believe your claim", especially in this case we have here. Claiming on the other hand, just signs you up to get NK'd. That's pretty damn anti-town of the cop to do, since the cop is such a useful role.
lol blaming the victim
Not really much else to say, Bard and Affinity have covered things rather nicely. "I fakeclaimed to save myself" is about as anti-town as one can get, anyway.
I will need to look over Affinity's Kefit case when I'm less half-asleep. I do remember wondering vaguely about Kefit at the end of yesterday, even as good as his words were, because it slowly felt more and more to me like he had spent the whole game up to that point picking on easy targets with safe and easy cases. I might be able to buy into a Kefit case.
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Yeah, never really expected to not get lynched today after Kilga flipped Seer.
I briefly considered lurking so hard everyone believes I'll be modkilled and then they all vote someone else, where I then make a big post shortly before deadline to avoid modkill and survive another day. But that would probably just irritate everyone massively and then I'd just be lynched the NEXT day anyway (which could very possibly be LyLo, screwing town over even more then I already have)
There is no way in hell I'm living past today (and it would hurt town because they'd surely lynch me in LyLo) so I might as well just go ahead and ##Vote:NeoSe- well then again, what Affinity said about putting obvscum at L-1, so I guess not.
lol blaming the victim
Well if you ask a serial killer to kill you, sometimes you, y'know, get killed. Just sayin'.
But counterclaiming ensures that scum get lynched.
My point here was that I would probably be lynched shortly WITHOUT the real cop commiting suicide over it. He might have been NK'd due to simply being who I claimed as town though, so. But still ):
eh w/e
I'll probably reread and post opinions at some point during this game day, but I'll also probably take my time about doing it since I'm dead either way.
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Okay wait, sorry, I misread the quotes I made in my Kefit case, so discount the point about selective scumhunting; what he said was consistent. But okay, Kefit, if you consider 'waffling between stances on votes' not to be a scumtell, then why did you agree on Bard's case on Nobu and Nat Tea, when it was primarily made up of this waffling? And why would you have placed them as scummier than Serela yesterday when you made your last post (e.g you said Serela was not that scummy, but you said that you agreed with the Nat Tea and Nobu equally scummy). Again, he does not seem to have a clear hierarchy to who is scum and why; he seems to give people with the same sins to them (in his views) different opinions arbitrarily.
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Since it has become a main point of the argument, here's my policy on potential roleblocking abilities:
If someone had an ability where they would not get any message about the results from the mod, they would not get a message about a potential block either.
Meaning: Since a successful Doc wouldn't get a message about their success, a roleblocked Doc wouldn't get a message either.
It seems that's not common practice and I admit I didn't think of how it might be relevant to cases in the first place, but I'm gonna stick to it. My apologies if that caused confusion.
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I briefly considered lurking so hard everyone believes I'll be modkilled and then they all vote someone else, where I then make a big post shortly before deadline to avoid modkill and survive another day. But that would probably just irritate everyone massively and then I'd just be lynched the NEXT day anyway (which could very possibly be LyLo, screwing town over even more then I already have)
This is not only anti-town but massively gaming the system. Scummy in both the literal AND figurative sense! Nice job.
Well if you ask a serial killer to kill you, sometimes you, y'know, get killed. Just sayin'.
Well when you don't claim someone else's role there is, y'know, zero chance they'll out themselves to scum via your own lies. Just sayin'.
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In unrelated news, UK may not be able to get online today.
Just FAYI.
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... So people don't get told they're roleblocked with an important role as Doc. ... uh, whoah, okay, just going to say that destroys my confusion over why you weren't roleblocked, although I disagree vehemently about not being honest about the results of someone's job unless bastard modding.
Sticking my vote where it is, no reason to move it.
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This is not only anti-town but massively gaming the system. Scummy in both the literal AND figurative sense! Nice job.
I'm also not doing it. But I thought it was an interesting concept, so I mentioned it.
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Unless you meant the "Nice job" part literally, in which case I totally just derped.
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Entertaining one anti-town thought while acting on the other doesn't make you townie. I admit that part makes me facepalm and is less scummy to me as it is stupidly talking about scummy things you wanted to do but didn't as some sort of evidence of integrity.
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VOTECOUNT
NeoSerela ( 2 ): Yamaneko, Bardiche
Kefit ( 1.5 ): Affinity
Not voting: UncertainKitten, NeoSerela, Kefit, Chaore
With 7 alive, it takes 4 to lynch. About 59 hours left.
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Bard:I'm not trying to convince anyone I'm town anymore. That's nearly hopeless at this point.
And it's not even really an integrity thing, it would doom town if scum wasn't lynched this day if I did that.
I'm of the belief at the moment that out of Affinity, Kefit, and Nobukilga, two of them are scum. This is more based on that the others I feel are town, although I wouldn't find it shocking if Bard was scum, I don't really think he is.
I dunno how to feel on Nobukilga atm although Nobu certainly looked bad (although all this stuff and aksdfjdaks so w/e), and I don't really have any particular reason to suspect Affinity, so I'll go ahead and ##Vote:Kefit. Mostly to just show my feelings although it would be p.cool if he somehow actually got lynched today. He hasn't really done a whole lot, and the people he wanted to vote are A.The two nibs and B.Nobu, which I feel was kind of easy since he was just lurkylurkybandwagoning.
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I may have given Neo the benefit of the doubt after his claim on d2, but I sure as hell am not gonna do that now after he's switched his claim like that. The reasons for this lynch are both obvious and have already been covered by everyone, so I won't waste more time here except to say that I'm not at all impressed with his attempt to ignite the case Affinity has started against me without actually adding anything to the case.
##Vote: NeoSerela
But okay, Kefit, if you consider 'waffling between stances on votes' not to be a scumtell, then why did you agree on Bard's case on Nobu and Nat Tea, when it was primarily made up of this waffling? And why would you have placed them as scummier than Serela yesterday when you made your last post (e.g you said Serela was not that scummy, but you said that you agreed with the Nat Tea and Nobu equally scummy). Again, he does not seem to have a clear hierarchy to who is scum and why; he seems to give people with the same sins to them (in his views) different opinions arbitrarily.
The case against Choja was an active lurking one; the key difference between it and the case on Nobu and Neo was that Choja did not have a vote placed by the end of d1. I thought I had explained strongly enough that this lack of a vote mixed with vaporous posts was key to my thought process, rather than waffling factors, but perhaps we've had a gap in communication. Polaris and Choja both exhibited these issues, which is why I thought they were scummy and in any case needed to be gotten rid of for lack of contribution early on rather than later. I preferred the case on Polaris because I thought the evidence I pointed out here (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,7063.msg437938.html#msg437938) was stronger, quantitatively if not qualitatively, than the evidence presented in the case against Choja.
I liked Kilga's case against Nobu, which was composed of active lurking/lack of contribution (something I pointed out against Nobu (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,7063.msg435730.html#msg435730) back on d1!) plus being on the huh what wagon. However, Nobu made a strong showing on d2 with his case against Neo, which subsequently removed him from my priority list. I may not have agreed that the case against Neo was strong, but it was still bona fide contribution on Nobu's part.
You're correct in that I haven't said much about other players. This is because I have been concentrating on players I thought needed to be lynched. This is not an issue anymore since the players in question are now gone. Thus, here are my pertinent thoughts on the playerbase at the moment:
Affinity: Yeah, I mentioned yesterday that I was wary of him. I kind of feel like his continued attack on me is forcing me to repeat myself, which is annoying and perhaps overly aggressive. On the other hand, his vote on Neo until the last second yesterday does make me feel better about him - all it would have taken was one more vote on top of Affinity's to lynch scumclaiming Neo, in a situation where it was very probable that another vote could indeed land on that player. His misrep of my statements (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,7063.msg440977.html#msg440977) earlier today doesn't reflect too badly on him since he took it back, but it does suggest that he didn't read my posts too carefully before writing up his attack on me, which is a bit disconcerting. Overall, I'm less wary of Affinity than I was on d2 due to Choja and Kilga's flips, but I'm still not hugely fond of him.
NobuKilga: Poor d1 has been beaten to death. Started the wagon against Neo d2, and not much else. Stayed suspiciously far away from Neo's resulting claim (by which I mean he didn't comment on it at all). Still, Neo's claim would have provided a convenient excuse to switch off the wagon against Neo in the event that Nobu had started a case against fellow scum that he hadn't expected to take off. Instead, Nobu remained on Neo until the end of the day, keeping him within one vote of a lynch. NobuKilga hasn't been afraid to keep the pressure going on Neo either. Liking him a lot right now.
UK: Catfight with Bard d1, in my experience catfighting is usually an indicator of towniness, but with UK in particular I'm less inclined to rely on this, especially late in the game. The weak pokes at Kilga here (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,7063.msg437750.html#msg437750), along with voting for Neo to "keep things interesting" raises my alarms, especially since UK immediately unvotes (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,7063.msg438845.html#msg438845) after Neo claimed. What's with the hesitance to place a solid vote on someone? UK's attack on Choja's claim via role name shenanigans also strikes me as particularly senseless. The name of the vanilla villager role had already been revealed via huhwhat's lynching - why try to make use of it in an attack? It's completely illusory. What purpose does it serve when your lynch target is already leading in number of votes? I'm seeing either filler or a gung ho attempt to draw attention away from Neo. Curious to see UK's reactions to today's flips, but I don't like her at all right now.
Chaore: Sat on the Nobu train along with Zak and Neo at the end of d1. That's a bit disconcerting, though the fact that huhwhat flipped town indicates that scum had no reason to try and counter-wagon. His case on Bardiche (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,7063.msg438048.html#msg438048) d2 is an alright showing, but I think it's fairly obvious that I consider lynching low/no content players on d2 to be a valid strategy so I don't agree much with the crux of the case. Additionally, the case misreps Bard's play by accusing him of railing against Prody for much of d1, when in fact Bard initially voted for Prody very early on (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,7063.msg434854.html#msg434854) and soon after switched his vote to Neo (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,7063.msg435893.html#msg435893) before ultimately ending up on huhwhat. Aside from that case, Chaore hasn't done much but post filler both on d1 (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,7063.msg436039.html#msg436039) and on d2 (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,7063.msg439621.html#msg439621). His d2 vote was left as the singular vote against Bardiche at the end of the day, nicely avoiding any bandwagon analysis. Feeling very wary here.
Bardiche: I explained some about Bard in my blurb above about Chaore. Suffice it to say, I agree with his methodology so far (even if I preferred one target over another), and his application of this strategy has been consistent. It is unfortunate that my and Bard's cases have been shown to be on townies, but their absence from the game still results in less liabilities for town, which I view as town benefit. Of all the remaining players, I feel the best about him, since I don't see any scum intent in any of his posts so far.
Since Affinity has been bugging me so much for a hierarchy, here you go, from scummiest to least scummy: Neo >>> Chaore > UK > Affinity > NobuKilga > Bardiche. Chaore is worse than UK due to his lack of presence and the weaknesses I've pointed out in his d2 case against Bard. UK is worse than Affinity because Affinity kept the Neo wagon alive until near the end of d2.
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It amuses me how your analysis on NobuKilga seems completely based off how he acts towards me. Just wondering, if you were to bear with me for just a moment on the idea of me being town, how would NobuKilga look to you?
It's kind of hard to tell things like that considering I do geniunely look horrible, but at the least, it's not going to be a townie tell after you guys get my flip. And it matters more how he acted on D2, before Kilga flipped Seer and basically had me labbed obvscum.
Kefit's post also makes me feel like I need to reevalutate my logic again. Maybe Chaore isn't as good as I originally thought? Guh.
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@Kefit: Misrep, Didn't suggest how long he had his vote on prody. (12 hours is a good deal of time by the way, not just 'soon after', So a further misrep is Prody wasn't just a few seconds vote, and he actually applied more effort into it than his Neo case after, which was followed immediately by a switch to HW.)
@Bard: Going to make content not just on the assured lynch?
Still not loving Bard, He does spend a good deal on Neo though so I'm feeling I should reconsider his case. Next up would normally be Kilga, but he not only died but flipped town. Following comes up to Kefit. Not feeling as good as I was before on him- Affinity is actually right that he reads a lot like Bard does, just with a tenth of the posts.
Other than Kefit- UK still kind of holds from Zak coming up scum, so combined with continued pressure on Neo she's looking pretty town. Nobu I removed above because I frankly want to get more of a read from Kilga's next posts, as his D2 while good was also kind of cut short by whatever sakana did. Affinity is thinking along my lines of thought which I like, but there's something about that in that I've come up wrong currently.
It is however 1 here and I'm feeling like shit. Those rereads can wait.
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VOTECOUNT
NeoSerela ( 3 ) L-1: Yamaneko, Bardiche, Kefit
Kefit ( 2.5 ): Affinity, NeoSerela
Not voting: UncertainKitten, Chaore
With 7 alive, it takes 4 to lynch. About 48 hours left.
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It's really irritating how all of Chaore's cases are like "BUT they went after Neo a lot so that makes them better". I understand I may look like obvscum here, but can you at LEAST wait until my flip before analyzing everyone else that way? Stop tempting me to vote myself and end the day so that you'll all stop clearing people for voting me >_>;
Also, Sakana, I voted Kefit here (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,7063.msg441334.html#msg441334).
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Also, Sakana, I voted Kefit here (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,7063.msg441334.html#msg441334).
No you didn't. You did in the post before the one you linked, though. :V
It would help a bit if you could place future votes on separate lines, as everyone else does it. Despite the bold, they don't stand out as much in the middle of several lines of text as you would think.
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@Serela: Because.... there's no reason to think of you as townie now with all the fakeclaiming. Posting something on the lines of what Kefit did would make us think again very very slightly, but...
Regarding Kefit, his analysis is a good showing; though I'm interested to know what he would likely do with it in future days. Except that most of his views on Nobu seems to be primarily on how his absence on late day seems town, but it strikes me as odd because Nobu simply wasn't there and thus shouldn't factor into his alignment. Yes, his case on Neo was solid but seems weird to put him second based on just that, which makes me think that he might have padded that post a little too much. However, there are enough original thoughts on Chaore and UK to balance this out. Makes me wonder why Bardiche said that he liked her second best yesterday. I don't agree with his thoughts on Bardiche, though.
Also please don't give obvscum the chance to hammer themselves and end the day...
And regarding that thing about his D1 and D2 scumhunting which I raised, I guess I'll stop, though I still think it's strange and a little superficial that one person is better than the other just because he voted at the end of the day, when those votes are non-functional and don't really do anything. But that will be left for later days so...
##Unvote
---
I want Bardiche, UK and Nobu to make a vote (or pretend-vote) on someone other than Serela with some reasoning as a marker to their thoughts. I find it irritating that Bardiche is just emptily pushing a dead horse forward without giving us a key to what he thinks about other players (e.g he only said something on Chaore while defending himself and even says that UK is second best at some point in D2 without saying how her posts have a high content:post ratio which worries me).
UK has escaped my view in D2, but on hindsight, I find that I remember very little about her views and what she did other than pull a bandwagon analysis without gleaning anything conclusive (and since I was the swing vote to huhwhat on D1, I found it strange that she didn't comment on that). Even her first vote on Serela doesn't seem to have the necessary flair to be substantial, and the ISO's on Chaore and people like that don't really have much explanation to them. The jump to Nat Tea also seems like a convenient thing to do; it's what Bard said before too(though you did say that). I agree with Kefit on the "Village Villager" terminology being rather superficial too, seeing that it was already revealed on D2.
##Vote:UK
As for Nobu, some other opinions today would be fine too.
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Yeah, Serela's lying. Again. Also, thanks for telling us about what you discussed in your QT. I'm flattered to have been considered for the N2 kill ^-^.
Does that mean I'm right about Chaore too, despite the fact I can't pin anything on him :P?
Also, Kefit, really? Really? Please, you know better than this. Your case on me is terrible. Fix it.
Your best point is the role shenanigans, and you ignore the fact that, maybe, just MAYBE I could have been trying to figure out if Choja was scum for certain or not. Since even with my case I was kinda edgy on it. It didn't *click*. But whatever, what's done is done. You ALSO ignore my little fight with Zakeri...who...was scum :O.
Kefit, why are you scum? The selective attack on me is about the most terrible thing I've ever seen from you.
Lemme read the rest of your post, which I'm sure will implicate more people than there are scum, but pull back on the last minute with them and not say anything of worth.
...WRONG. Nobu did NOT start the wagon on Serela. I did
Why are you ignoring blatant fact, again? OH, right, makes your case on me look bad. Damn, that has to suck.
I agree on the D1 wagon points against Chaore. I don't actually see anything wrong with the Chaore case. We also agree on Bard town.
So, basically, a hint of fact with a web of lies. But...it was kind of obvious. Sloppy work. Who are you trying to fool?
Also, remember this a minute ago?
Lemme read the rest of your post, which I'm sure will implicate more people than there are scum, but pull back on the last minute with them and not say anything of worth.
Yep.
-------
Oh, good, Chaore sees how terrible Kefit!post is too. Chaore is only half right as well though.
Ok. I'm going to note that this point that Affinity's post was so wrong, careless, and overall terrible, not in the scum sense but in the anti-town silliness sense, that I actually had to take a 15 minute break before continuing. I'd appreciate it if both you and Kefit actually read the game so your posts didn't read like you were just making up a pile of crap to look productive. I think that's the kindliest way I can put things.
Let me try to continue...oh, that's all.
Great.
##Vote Kefit
Much as I hate to be voting with obvscum, and much as I hate to be using a burden or proficiency, I can't believe that wall came from town Kefit. It ignores a whole ton of things inconvenient to his case. I suppose you might think I'm a little audacious to assume two scum went for me and will fail, but that appears to be the case. At least it's consistent with how careless Kefit's posting was.
I'd add to it with prior stuff, but it's really unnecessary. Once again, that post alone makes him likely scum.
If I had a second Non Serela pick, it'd be Chaore based on the fact I still have a *click* on him, as I said. I can't seem to prove it but I'll try again in the future if somehow Kefit flips town.
Also, neither Kefit nor Affinity shall secure my lynch, no matter how twisted their logic is. I implore you to again, reread the game and not fulfill preconceived notions with blatant falsehood.
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/me sighs.
In fact, let's do this.
UK: Catfight with Bard d1, in my experience catfighting is usually an indicator of towniness, but with UK in particular I'm less inclined to rely on this, especially late in the game. The weak pokes at Kilga here, along with voting for Neo to "keep things interesting" raises my alarms, especially since UK immediately unvotes after Neo claimed. What's with the hesitance to place a solid vote on someone? UK's attack on Choja's claim via role name shenanigans also strikes me as particularly senseless. The name of the vanilla villager role had already been revealed via huhwhat's lynching - why try to make use of it in an attack? It's completely illusory. What purpose does it serve when your lynch target is already leading in number of votes? I'm seeing either filler or a gung ho attempt to draw attention away from Neo. Curious to see UK's reactions to today's flips, but I don't like her at all right now.
1. Why even mention the catfight if it's a null tell? That's padding.
2. Why is "weakly poking kilga" at all done with scum intent? Please elaborate
3. Once again, why is unvoting Serela at all scummy when he's claimed Cop? Regardless of whether he was lying or not, some information could have been obtained, and optimally Serela would claim being roleblocked, meaning the scum COULD NOT roleblock anyone else? I don't see how this makes me look bad.
4. Context, Kefit. How did my "just to make things interesting" vote on Serela at all benefit scum, especially since my wagon anal was implying if Nobu was town, Serela was scum, and I was leaning slight Nobu town, or at least neutral?
5. Alright, you're going to need to cite this hesitance. Because I have no idea what you're talking about here. What's interesting is you don't link it like you did other supposed "facts"
6. As I said, this is your best point, but it's still weak. As I explained, Choja didn't *click*, but I was hoping I could at least make him misstep into claiming scum. Unfortunately, it didn't work because he didn't read his role PM. In fact, had I been vigilant, that would have likely proven Choja's innocence, since scum would have told him about the role names. To be fair, it DID hypothetically work on Serela, I just couldn't make full use of it at the time. In retrospect I should have wanted Serela lynched purely on his nameclaim. Mea culpa.
Either way, why is it only "filler or a gung ho attempt to lead away from Serela"? Why could it not be an attempt to absolve misgivings on the case? You set up a false dichotomy.
I think that should take care of it. Now for Affinity.
UK has escaped my view in D2, but on hindsight, I find that I remember very little about her views and what she did other than pull a bandwagon analysis without gleaning anything conclusive (and since I was the swing vote to huhwhat on D1, I found it strange that she didn't comment on that). Even her first vote on Serela doesn't seem to have the necessary flair to be substantial, and the ISO's on Chaore and people like that don't really have much explanation to them. The jump to Nat Tea also seems like a convenient thing to do; it's what Bard said before too(though you did say that). I agree with Kefit on the "Village Villager" terminology being rather superficial too, seeing that it was already revealed on D2.
1. To be honest, the HW wagon was kinda weird. But more importantly I figured (correctly) the true rival wagons of the day were Nobu/Serela. Please note part of my vote regarding Serela was based in that. I also would not be surprised by Chaore scum due to the way the votes shook out but...Kefit is...ugh.
2. My ISOs were weak because there wasn't a lot to comment on. To be fair, I probably left out some of my thoughts because it was hard to explain them. I do not see how my vote on Serela was at all bad given the preceding analysis.
3. Again, already explained. All I can say is, how is it the scummy thing to do? Convenient, perhaps, though creating an ISO is kinda a pain in the ass way to do things *conveniently*.
I don't understand your cases at all at this point. They don't even look like they're trying to find scum, just a series of weird things you can string together into something that looks good on paper but doesn't work with facts. Also, notice the differences between Kefit and Affinity's analyses. Kefit pads his with things that aren't scummy, and he even says they aren't. In fact, he tries to dissolve a (supposed) town tell to implicate me. Affinity generally sticks with what can implicate me, and overall has a more townie feel to his case.
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Okay, basing a case on Kefit completely on one post is not really good enough even though you claim it to be. It already sounds as if you're voting someone just because they said something bad about you; even if you might not think the reasons decent. It also makes all the bandwagon analysis you did yesterday and stuff like that seem rather strange if just one post against you can make you think they are scum, but... oh well. Would like some kind of backing to it based on past day actions if possible. I don't agree with the thing about trying to trick Choja into claiming scum (he's no prody), but alright, I understand why you voted Serela yesterday (though I've to admit it took a little time to see the link). One thing, however, is that you didn't really press Serela for content and you didn't consider his posts very much in your conclusion yesterday, which I've to say is slightly scummy. Will come back the next day; it's a little messy now.
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Actually, not considering Serela due to the cop claim also makes sense. Since I wasn't going to touch him that day.
I'll find more on Kefit after I catch up with the internet, but I'll remind you I caught Zakeri with one post. It's less attacking my attackers and more attacking the attackers with a case presented scummily. Note I still think you're town because of the way you presented your case.
At any rate, actually, I didn't expect to have another situation where someone would one post themselves, so I don't see how this is inconsistent with hunting for scum through bandwagon analysis...
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OK, let's go now.
First post doesn't really say much, but rather succinctly covers the game. Doesn't really strike me as town or scum.
For obvious reasons this (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,7063.msg436113.html#msg436113) looks bad in retrospect. Since, yanno, Bard and I were right.
Ok, here's the issue. I think this post (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,7063.msg437938.html#msg437938) looks bad. I realize townies can be wrong. What bugs me is the soft attack on Nobu when evidence is suggesting that either Nobu or Serela is scum, but not both. So it strikes me as a soft defense of Serela. Problem is, that's also a little contrived, so I'm not sure if I can really use that.
This (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,7063.msg439695.html#msg439695) is also intriguing, obviously because of the defense of Serela in favor of voting derp town, yet again. But, what's REALLY interesting is that Kefit is castigating me for unvoting Serela, yet he, himself states that the night actions will show things about Serela's claim!!
Anyway, I've already stating my opinions on Kefit's post that claims scum, even if he doesn't use the words :P.
Overall, I think Kefit's ISO less shows scum intent (outside of shielding Serela several times. What the hell was that?), but more a lack of town intent, which, for a player like Kefit is...ah...kinda bad.
What strikes me also as interesting is how quickly Affinity dropped the Kefit case. What changed?
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@Chaore: Going to make any opinions on the "assured lynch"? :V
I telegraphed my suspicions yesterday. Little has changed between now and then except that Chaore's continued waffling and his latest post reading like a lot of vague alignment attributions based on the Serela case which must be obvious scum. Except he has, until now, lended no ounce of support for it and yes, even criticised me over even suggesting Serela was scummy.
In fact. ##UNVOTE
##VOTE: Chaore
Tunnel on Serela? Why, yes. There is a ludicrously ridiculous amount of insane gambitry and derp involved in Serela. But I'm willing to overlook that, because you know, it's all derp and I don't know whether Serela is a Town on a Descending Slope of OhGodWhathaveyoudone?! or scum with what must be the worst possible plan ever that may or may not rely on it being so terrible it is ridiculous.
And while I am absolutely willing to lose to plans so crazy they can't exist, I am a little less willing to let slide Chaore's lackluster scum hunting, consisting at present mostly of vague "I don't like your attitude" allegiations raised against Kefit and I, vague and hazy commendations of who must be town but may be scum, and altogether very little decisive input on any of the wagons formed in the past.
Chaore's neatly kept off the wagon in the previous day by holding his vote uselessly because it was clear no one was interested in pursuing his venue. More effort or at least a better use of his efforts seemed a logical step, and yet this process does not exist to any great spirit, neither yesterday nor today. Proclaiming someone is scummy and yet withholding any and all zeal to actually get that person lynched, or bring their ludicrous lies to light seems lazy, unmotivated and completely lackluster.
Between Derp2Max and the lazy scumhunt, I'll take my gambles with the latter, because as I said right now I have been thinking and my God does Serela's plan have to be one of massive gambits and crazy that, damnit, if it really is a scum ploy I think a little success would be well-deserved considering the abyssmal rates of success.
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No. Serela is scum. I can prove it if I have to. Please tell me most of your post was satire, Bard.
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... We're going over this again?
The more I think about Serela the more it seems like the utmost idiotic of maneuvres that baffles the mind on how, exactly, any form of success was to be anticipated, expected or otherwise reasonable. Of course, there's enough actions of Serela that make me wonder "What?" and that don't telegraph any townie intent.
I can still be persuaded to vote her, and indeed if no followers take the train to Chaorelynch I will just move back as necessary, but right now Serela's case is such a gigantic mausoleum of silliness that I just don't know what to add to that case. I'm afraid right now I've reached the Derp threshold and will now descend into derp and unfathomable logic. My performance as Saki is really a once-in-a-few-weeks session and I fail to see a coherent thread of logic in the storm of Serela's derpism.
If she is town, then she successfully made sure scum could laze about these past two days. If she is scum, then my head is just full of fuck.
I just have no idea what to think of it anymore. I admit to Mafierangst over losing the game if Serela is indeed town and scum will have a major advantage due to her actions.
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Well I was about set to get cracking on a opinion-of-everyone-else post but I just got called into work for a couple of hours so I don't have the time to write something huge right now.
I am mildly concerned with anyone taking Serela's case on Kefit seriously and more concerned with anyone that is trying to twist the fact that it exists at all to their own benefit. It is a pile of WIFOM, nothing more.
Off the top of my head, I am most happy with Affinity and least happy with Kefit, the former for taking several non-obvious stances throughout the game and taking the time to look at both sides of an issue (such as with oldme regarding huh what on Day 1) and the latter for spending most of the game picking on easy targets, which I said before. Not sure how Bard/UK/Chaore shakes down for me at present. Kinda want to put them all at the same level, really. Maybe Bard slightly above the other two but uh. Would need time for a proper reread to do anything more meaningful than that.
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@Bard: As I said, I can prove Serela is lying. Consider this a softclaim. Some part of my role contradicts completely what Serela said. No, that is not the entirity of it.
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Oh, before the inevitable "Why aren't you voting Serela then?", because I want to see where the shakedown of secondary cases goes. Obviously I won't accept any lynch except Serela's today.
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VOTECOUNT
NeoSerela ( 2 ): Yamaneko, Bardiche, Kefit
Kefit ( 2 ): Affinity, NeoSerela, UncertainKitten
UncertainKitten ( 1.5 ): Affinity
Chaore ( 1 ): Bardiche
Not voting:Chaore
With 7 alive, it takes 4 to lynch. About 35 hours left.
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I'll probably switch to Serela before I go to bed tonight.
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brb love affair with bardiche
anyway, UK, considering that I am indeed TOWN, like I said today a Village Healer who protected Kilga N1 and myself N2, who may or may not have been roleblocked since Sakana said he does NOT inform people of this... what is your proof?
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Easy. I protected Kilga. And Bard. And Kefit. I also did some other things. Happy now? You drew out the real Healer. Oh, by the way. It's not healer. It's Guardian.
But, as it happens, I'm not that either.
I'm a Village Bitch. I mean Witch! Witch! I have potions that do things. One of those things is protect. Actually, it was a pretty ingenious role. Basically, I could make a list of people and if the wolves attacked any of them, my potion was used up and they didn't die. So, I had a choice. Protect one person a night and confirm them as town, or protect everyone and guarantee the scum lose a kill. I chose neither and just protected Bard, Kefit, and Kilga N1, who were my leading picks for town. In retrospect that wasn't the most intelligent thing I could do but what's done is done.
Yes, I do other things. I see no need to reveal those right now.
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Well I'm still a healer ):
I guess, uh, there isn't really anything else I can say but that, on the matter.
It'll be amusing to watch your reaction to me flipping Village Healer though, I guess.
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By which you mean Wolf Roleblocker.
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Why does Witch exclude the Guardian/Healer, again?
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Balance mostly. The fact of the matter is, my role is a GUARANTEED PROTECT essentially. Even if I miss, my potion doesn't get used until I've successfully protected, and I had the option of listing the entire playerlist.
Even then, had Serela acted with a modicum of towniness, I'd probably have held my tongue. But I seriously can't believe you're contemplating him possibly being town after his actions.
He's trying to draw claims out. Yesterday it was cop, now it's the doctor. Well, I'm apparently the closest thing to that.
I really hope you realize what you are advocating. Just how many unlikely things you're proposing.
Also, to be clear, when I stated I was softclaiming I realized I'd have to at least half claim at that point, so that's why I claimed, not necessarily because Serela asked.
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Summation of my thoughts: :colonveeplusalpha:
Translation: Oh, okay. I see. Citing balance. We've got a day left, I've had a busy day at uni and I am in no state of mind to ponder this so I'll revisit the deal later, but I will likely support Serela lynch if no Chaore case gets knit.
If, of course, Serela is scum, I would take heavy looks at Affinity, but so far I guess it's premature.
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Admittedly, I didn't think the impact of my claim all the way through. Citing balance is kinda a flimsy tactic. But I figure it assists in the evidence mounting against Serela.
I refuse to lynch anyone besides Serela today, but I don't mind your case on Chaore at all and will likely pursue either his or Kefit's lynch tomorrow. I'm pretty sure at this point the scum is one of those two. Rather, the non Serela scum.
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@Bard: Misrep 1: Fakeclaiming under fire in an attempt to out the cop or to get heat off you is not exactly 'CRAZY IMPOSSIBLE SCUM PLOY'. Why the fuck are you trying to blow this into some super complex plan. He had a lot of votes on him. He fakeclaimed cop under pressure. Intention was to save his ass as he has said already, pretty much. And he succeeded to boot, seeing as we're now down the cop and he managed to make it out alive for the day. In the end he ended up getting caught up by Kilga being the cop, but that isn't something he could've expected.
Misrep 2: Oh yes, I called you on your first case on Neo because it was not only stupid (lol LAL on ED1) and an easy case to make as you didn't have to bother with anything due to your case not being on anyone with posts. This was on D2, and if you meant on that post- I'm criticizing for sticking with only discussing Neo, which avoids you having to make any opinion that isn't based on the person who's trying to weasel his way out of getting caught.
Misrep 3: My case isn't based on your attitude, or frankly it'd probably be a hell of a lot stronger. Anyone reading it knows that far well enough and even you knew that much better yesterday. If you're responding to how I've said I still don't like you - I don't. You're continuing discussing only easy and uncomplicated targets, instead of moving forward, and now you're moving back for retarded fucking reasons.
At least you still have the fact I've had trouble getting on lately. Not really my fault, but hey go ahead, Run with that. Hasn't failed for you yet, has it?
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On at work. Not much to say except for this.
At least you still have the fact I've had trouble getting on lately. Not really my fault, but hey go ahead, Run with that. Hasn't failed for you yet, has it?
You know, citing Bard misrepping you and then turning around and misrepping him isn't the best course of action.
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You know, citing Bard misrepping you and then turning around and misrepping him isn't the best course of action.
D1 on Neo. I'm not misrepresenting anything.
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So your lone example is a mid-Day 1 vote?
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So your lone example is a mid-Day 1 vote?
It's not a Misrep, but it certainly isn't a case Kilga. I'm not allowed to make snide remarks now?
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Yes, citing balance is kind of derp considering they said roles and alignments would not be linked. We could have a scum Witch. :V This possibility is, of course, unlikely if your role works as advertised due to Zakeri's death. Unless it's Just As Planned but you know how that works out in scum games.
I still cannot entirely see how Serela can even purport her actions to be townie due to the massive lying and deceiving going on and the downright crazy gambits, but I also cannot see how scum would really benefit from such a song and dance. I'm inclined to lean on the scum side of things, and I admit that I am hesitant in part due to the way this has been moving and my gut has been saying that, warm fuzzy feelings or not, the game will make a turn for the worst in the case of NeoSerela actually being town. It's a terrifying thought, really, and leaving her at L-1 with still 24 hours to go also seems frightening.
On a different but related note.
Chaore. I fail to still see how your case on me is anything other than that you think I am picking on newbies, which is more a matter of attitude than anything else. "Easy case" is a silly argument because obvScum, or obvScummy, is no reason to not pursue any person. If it smells as scum and acts as scum, you pursue it; whether you are trying to find fault with someone who acts in an obvTown way or with someone in an obvScum way, scum is scum; I don't see why you must try to find fault with townie-like players in lieu of the scum-like players.
Am I chasing something obvious? Perhaps. But I see no reason the obvious cannot be the scummy, and have as yet found little reason to turn to many others. From the way you are talking it is my sincerest belief that you are taking this a bit too aggressively, as aside from one of my comments, the insinuation that you may be reacting over-defensively to most my suspects being lurkers is linked to your low amount of posts, I have ill made any comments with the intention to draw out aggression or otherwise.
To call another's confusion "retarded fucking reasoning" may be one of the reasons the newbies may not feel at home in these sort of games, as the cutthroat way you approach your case on me removes the "party" from "partygame" and turns it into a confrontationalist public sensation moreso than the game it is meant to be. It is honestly just demotivating.
Am I being arrogant in asserting the above? Perhaps. I'm no proper judge of that. The sentiment still stands. Tone down the hostility. It won't kill you to be civil.
Ninjas: As far as chasing lurkers goes, I am still baffled by how you decide that something I scarcely mentioned at all must definitely play a big part in my criteria for scum. Yes, lurking is scummy, but it is not the sole standard by which I decide if someone is worth scrutiny or not. If it was, I'd have to run a train on Kefit as he is easily one of the posters with the least amount of posts here, if not the least. The difference is that what he posts has actual contributions; the ones I leveled my finger at did not; their contributions were/are meager and not conductive to proper scumhunting.
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I frown upon snideness, yes, because it's needlessly antagonistic and thus anti-town. That being said you're hardly the only party guilty of needless antagonism, but multiple people doing it doesn't make any individual instance of it less bad.
On top of that, the nature of the subject you were discussing combined with the snideness suggested to me you were implying most/all of Bard's cases on people were based on lurkishness, an implication boosted by the two of you having this discussion about Bard's cases at least once before that ended with him demonstrating that the cases you were trying to paint as based on lurkishness were actually not based on lurkishness. This is why I call misrep on your statement, because Bard's only based a case on lurkishness once and it was a midday vote yet you held it in broad snarky strokes against him.
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EBWOP: That stuff near the end there should read "it was a midday Day 1 vote".
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I'm not allowed to make snide remarks now?
'Snide'? Noone was ever allowed to do so. I think the topic of civil conduct has been discussed often enough in regards to Mafia.
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@Bard: Real easy. Serela knew he was caught. Therefore, he claimed to out a power role. Living through that one, he claimed another one since his little seer business was blown. To out the doctor he KNEW had to exist. Which he succeeded in. I quite simply, screwed up in my zeal to make sure Serela was caught and lynched. I probably didn't need to softclaim.
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Damn, UK is going to get NK'd tonight now; just realized that. With the healer lynched, there's nothing stopping scum from yet ANOTHER claimed powerrole kill, unless some role manages to kill/roleblock scum on the kill which would be pretty damn lucky.
Sigh.
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So, do you have any scumhunting to add or will your remaining posts just be AtEs?
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Serela stop trying to fish whether or not UK can self-protect.
(Captain Obvious time: UK, obviously don't confirm this one way or the other.)
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Yeah, obviously. I tried to keep as little role info as I could while counterclaiming Serela.
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The problem is, the majority of current analysis is either A.Before D3 and I've already been over that near the end of D2, or B.Built on me being scum, which makes it patently useless.
It's really fucking hard to read people when I'm massively demotivated due to being guaranteed lynch and half the scumhunting is based on me having already flipped scum (which I'm not going to). I made some short scumhunting comments today, and I don't really see a whole lot of point in putting forth much more effort then that; being town and not scum, my opinions aren't all that important to the game after I die, which I will when today ends.
Even if by some miracle I wasn't lynched today, people would be too likely to want to kill me on LyLo, as well as keep scumhunting based as if I already flipped scum. Even I have to admit I cannot accept any lynch other then myself today. I cannot be allowed to live into LyLo this game.
Serela stop trying to fish whether or not UK can self-protect.
That would be going into overpowered role territory IMO, considering this is an otherwise normal-ish role setup game and she does have some kind of powers apart from a guaranteed protect on someone that is already used. Unless Witch is a third party role, I suppose. But then why would she have the protect? Unless she's lying out her ass on the protect, which I really doubt. (If you are, I congratulate you on a job well done btw)
I guess I wouldn't be surprised if she had a bomb power or something, but I really wouldn't want her to claim that and risk making scum NOT kill her and get killed themselves.
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wellp, as promised
##Unvote, ##Vote NeoSerela
L-1.
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VOTECOUNT
NeoSerela ( 3 )L - 1: Yamaneko, Bardiche, Kefit, UncertainKitten
Kefit ( 1 ): Affinity, NeoSerela, UncertainKitten
UncertainKitten ( 1.5 ): Affinity
Chaore ( 1 ): Bardiche
Not voting:Chaore
With 7 alive, it takes 4 to lynch. About 24 hours left.
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Okay.
Affinity I'm still fine with for previously cited reasons, UK I'm fine with given the claim (though I wouldn't suggest citing game balance as a reason for anything, Sakana himself said this game was likely to be unbalanced (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,5781.msg427083.html#msg427083)). I have some small misgivings toward giving UK a free pass to the end of the game but they're founded in some pretty crazy Xanatos theories and thus are unlikely to be worth pursuing.
The Bard/Chaore slapfight I tire of reading. It actually gutjerks me toward thinking town/town, as I see similarities to the Smithers/Axem Rangers and Hazel/Almaz slapfights from over at the DL, both of which were town/town. If I had to lean one way or the other on this one I would probably lean proBard simply because I found myself agreeing with him more often, but man.
Kefit is still at the bottom of my list. Since people had been calling Chaore on leaving his Day 2 vote somewhere useless, I decided to go back and look at the vote counts to see if anything else stood out. A bit of puttering around and I came across this little gem, from Kefit's last Day 2 post.
Polaris needs to go. He's hasn't done a damn thing today aside from making this short promise to deliver content that has not been fulfilled (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,7063.msg438932.html#msg438932). Even Choja has at least made his opinion known and placed a vote (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,7063.msg437916.html#msg437916) today. Barring something unexpected, my vote on Polaris will not change today unless Polaris posts real content of some kind AND places a vote.
This is a wonderful display of trying to look like one is doing something while actually doing nothing.
- People who are doing absolutely nothing are exactly the kind of people not to vote for, because if they are doing nothing they will be dealt with by the mod.
- "My vote on Polaris will not change today unless Polaris posts real content of some kind AND places a vote" is an easy set-up for a vote-shift-delaying tactic. Does coming in and posting something even halfway decent really absolve all previous lurker charges? No, it doesn't. (In before it is thrown at me that I held a similar "make a case" philosophy regarding Nobu, response is that case on Nobu was because his cases were bad, not because he was lurking.) Compounding the point that lazy LAL is easy to hide behind to avoid doing anything meaningful, the post linked in that quote is spent mostly focused on Polaris and Polaris-related circumstances. Not many opinions on other people. It's like LOOK AT ALL THIS CONTENT except the content is four or five paragraphs spent rehashing why this one guy that's more likely to be modkilled than lynched needs votes. Really, really lazy.
Consider my fakevote on Kefit at this juncture. No real desire to pull off Serela, though, and grow weary of people going DON'T PUT THE SCUM IN A SELF-HAMMER POSITION as if it's a universal rule that such a thing is bad. Ask bofh or Roukan some time about a fabled Meme Mafia and they will gladly regale you with tales of why town sitting around for 70 hours with their thumbs up their asses while a public scum dances a little jig is not always good for town.
-
@UK: I haven't dropped the case on Kefit at all; but I was just rather surprised at his reply post being quite all-encompassing with some originality and interesting points, although as I raised, I still don't agree with the way he cleared Nobu and Bardiche in that post. I also don't like his D1 and D2 posts since they seem to make him a question mark on the previous days. Lastly, however, I have to agree with you that the attack on you for unvoting Serela is quite bad since Kefit unvoted himself too. I personally think that the post was a little hit-and-miss; a bad combination in Mafia. Just wanted to put my vote to something more useful, and with your roleclaim and adequate defense, I suppose it doesn't belong anymore (though I feel the retort you made was a little overly fierce)
##Unvote
---
I don't understand the Bard/Chaore thing today. I also don't know why Bardiche is so shocked by Serela's actions; isn't that the 'too scummy to be scum' issue you're trying to argue against the entire game? Why lynch Chaore ahead of him?
-
VOTECOUNT
NeoSerela ( 3 )L - 1: Yamaneko, Bardiche, Kefit, UncertainKitten
Kefit ( 1 ): Affinity, NeoSerela, UncertainKitten
UncertainKitten ( 1.5 ): Affinity
Chaore ( 1 ): Bardiche
Not voting:Chaore, Affinity
With 7 alive, it takes 4 to lynch. About 10 hours left
-
So yeah, we have 10 hours. Might wanna get on voting Serela, guys.
-
Well, uh, I AM at L-1 already, with no one else even close, and even if no one hammered I'll be deadline lynched, sooo... don't really see whole lot of point in your post UK, unless you simply want me hammered to end the day now.
I could do that, if that's what you meant. Days close enough to over and there isn't a lot of discussion happening (not that there isn't ANY, but)
-
I'm going to bed in a few minutes though, so the night wouldn't start until I wake up tomorrow anyway, even if you ended the day now. Take your time :V
-
Okay, then.
##UNVOTE
Affinity: it's more that it's incomprehensible to me what the possible gains could ever be and it strikes me as the ultimate form of derp. You are right, though: that alone should not excuse all the scummy things done.
Declaring intent to hammer in five minutes.
-
- People who are doing absolutely nothing are exactly the kind of people not to vote for, because if they are doing nothing they will be dealt with by the mod.
I was afraid that Polaris would escape the modkill, since he had made a post (albeit an excessively worthless one) in accordance with the rule. My understanding of the modkill rule is that it is to get rid of people who have completely disappeared from the internets, rather than to get rid of lurkers, since lurking is considered a valid strategy in some circles I've read about (though a poor one in an environment unfriendly to lurkers).
re NobuKilga end of d2 stuff: I'm actually not too familiar with the situation that Nobu went through, as Sakana has handled it in a fairly discreet manner. I assumed that since Nobu's vote was still counted at the end of d2, that Nobu was still considered an active player and capable of participation at that point in time. Instead it sounds like he was rendered incapable of posting shortly after he posted his case on Neo. This certainly makes him harder to read, but I appreciate the consistency of his stance on Neo despite the change of real life players, and the manner in which NobuKilga today has carefully considered and commented upon most cases that have been presented today. So still feeling good here, even if I was mistaken in my earlier reasoning.
---
Lastly, however, I have to agree with you that the attack on you for unvoting Serela is quite bad since Kefit unvoted himself too.
Eh? I'm fairly sure I never unvoted Neo, largely because my vote was never on him in the first place. Please take a bit more care in reading my posts before slinging mud at me.
--
Chaore has failed to impress today.
Other than Kefit- UK still kind of holds from Zak coming up scum, so combined with continued pressure on Neo she's looking pretty town. Nobu I removed above because I frankly want to get more of a read from Kilga's next posts, as his D2 while good was also kind of cut short by whatever sakana did. Affinity is thinking along my lines of thought which I like, but there's something about that in that I've come up wrong currently.
These are the only words Chaore has had to say on any of the remaining non-Bard players, aside from a brief attack on myself. And nothing is really being said here aside from a desire to followup on NobuKilga after more posts were made (hasn't happened) and a completely unsuppoerted hunch that something is "wrong" with Affinity despite the fact that he likes what Affinity has to say. There's no actual scumhunting going on here, and no thought processes that are careful or cautious enough to have been made by a townie. His continued tunnel vision on Bard in subsequent posts (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,7063.msg442118.html#msg442118) takes a strange, simultaneously offensive and defensive posture in the form of attemping to call out Bard on misreps pertaining to Chaore himself*. It's much easier to twist words around to form a poor accusation of misrepresentation than it is to find real instances of scummy play. Not to say that misreps aren't at least anti-town, but the misreps cited by Chaore haven't been impressive in the slightest.
Yes, Chaore looked the worst to me earlier today and has done nothing to help his case. Consider my fakevote for the day on Chaore.
* Yes, I know it looks weird for me to call people out on tunnel vision, the difference is that I've expanded my thoughts to other players whereas others have as of yet declined to do so.
--
Ironically, despite my stance on Chaore, he did post one tidbit that got me thinking:
@Bard: Going to make content not just on the assured lynch?
Bard has done very little today aside from sparring with Chaore and posting lots of waffling words regarding the Neo case. These words take up space but don't really do anything but give credence to conspiracy theories, which is decidedly anti-town at this stage of the game. I certainly cannot blame Bard for defending himself from Chaore's attack, but this defense should not be in lieu of his thoughts on other players.
I liked Bard a lot earlier today, but I find these issues genuinely disconcerting and no longer smile upon him as much. The purpose of prolonging this day seems to have been to force everyone to make their thoughts known, to put something on the table that can't be taken back once the final days come about. At this point in time I feel that Bard is shirking this responsibility.
-
Declaring intent to hammer in five minutes.
Woah, talk about nice timing - I was starting to get concerned that day would end before I finished writing up my post above. But more importantly, I seem to have stilfed Bard's attempt to end the day without really saying much himself.
I have no problem with you hammering, Bard - so long as you share your thoughts on the wider playerbase before you do so.
-
You haven't stifled much. I already shared my thoughts on everyone earlier.
To recap:
I said earlier that UK and Kilga are among my favourites for town; this continues to hold true.
I remarked you had low activity but there was content in your posts; I've yet seen little reason to declare this content suspect.
I've pointed at Chaore's tunnel vision and his shady dealings and find this appropriate for anything with regards to him.
The only person I can have conceivably missed in the day is Affinity, of who I have minor suspicions but I have never elaborated on them. I'll touch on this curious vote (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,7063.msg440039.html#msg440039) near the end of Day 2 on Polaris. I call it weird, because earlier he condemned Kefit and I for the "easy and obvious" cases (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,7063.msg438712.html#msg438712), a fact to which he himselves becomes guilty later on in his very next post. Particularly, he declares Polaris an easy case, but this does not stop him from pursuing it himself late D2 in lieu of a Serela lynch.
Does this adequately satisfy you?
-
Tbh, considering Sakana won't be here till around deadline to post results anyway, I don't see a whole lot of point in hammering right away (if at all). The only difference is no one will be allowed to talk, you'll still all get my flip of Village Healer at about the same time.
-
Does this adequately satisfy you?
Not entirely. Your stance on UK and Kilga seems to be a reference to this D2 post (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,7063.msg439632.html#msg439632), which doesn't contain much in the way of analysis on the two and is not directly pertinent to the current game state (especially since we now deal with NobuKilga instead of OldKilga). I've pored over your posts today several times, and I don't think I missed any substantial analysis of UK and NobuKilga. If I have, then simply provide me with a link and I will withdraw this attack.
-
I fail to see the need to provide "substantial analysis". UK had a bad Day1 as far as I am concerned, but has since redeemed herself by being inquisitive and pursuing cases. I feel no desire to submit a case on her.
Similarly, Kilga's actions have given me no cause for concern. I am aware this is NobuKilga now, but have not seen anything in his latest posts that alarms in the slightest. He agrees with me an awful lot, but that seems little cause of concern right presently.
I am not in the habit of extensive analysis on people I have good feelings over. I believe I am claim to consistently not talk much about people that strike me in a positive light. How is this scummy?
-
EBWOP: pursuing coherent cases*, of course, for UK.
All this may change if I were to see something suspect in later posts, for both of them, which will cause me to review their posts in different light, hence why I think analysis of positive people is silly.
-
Actually, I didn't realize that you could be deadline lynched. Regardless, a full wagon is better in general.
And bad D1 my ass. Caught scum right in the waning hours >=[!
Anyway, Kefit hasn't bothered to defend himself against being scum, so that's a thing. Nor has he said anything revising his stance on me, so that's also a thing. Can't say I'm impressed.
-
Everyone can be lucky. :V
-
Bard: That's better, yes, though as we get later in the game and the margin of error becomes smaller I question the logic of declining to provide substantive analysis on people you view positively. This positive view has to come from somewhere, right?
I'm satisfied enough to see no point in dragging this out any further, and moreover have to leave in a few minutes for the majority of the rest of the weekend. I have no problem with a hammer now.
Cut by UK: My thoughts on you haven't changed an awful lot. I'm inclined to believe your roleclaim since it's against public scum, but at the same time I don't like that you conveniently succumbed to Neo's roleclaim baiting when it wasn't at all necessary. So you win some, you lose some, and you end up in about the same place in my mind.
-
Wasn't luck, Bard ;).
There's also the fact I started the Serela wagon.
@Kefit: Yeah, so obviously the complete and utter ripping apart I gave your case due to it's lack of factual basis doesn't matter at all, amirite?
-
Alright, so I'll end the day there.
##VOTE: NeoSerela
And that is hammer, folks. It would probably be proper now not to start talking or something. We'll see what the morrow brings.
-
~ Day 3 End~
"Hmm, a clear decision this time, eh? And I must say, the circumstances that led to it are quite... interesting."
The Stranger smirked.
A while later, NeoSerela's body dangled from the tree.
But nothing happened.
"Huh, not the right one either, eh?"
He noticed a little notebook sticking out from the bodies' pockets and went over to retrieve it.
For a moment, he chuckled.
Then he read out the book's title, waiting for the sound of heads meeting walls or palms conncting to faces that would inevitably come in a moment.
"... 'The 101 of surgery, herbs and curing - How to be a Healer, Part I' "
-----------------------------------------------------------
NeoSerela, Village Healer, has been lynched by majority.
You are the Village Healer.
At night, you can use your mystic powers to ##protect a single target, including yourself, from the Wolves' fangs.
However, you can not protect the same target on two consecutive nights.
-------------------------------------------------------------
It is now Night 3. You have 24 hours to send in Night Actions.
-
"Huh, you again?"
The Stranger looked down at the corpse.
"Someone really doesn't like you, eh? Ah well, this time, I'll let you rest for good."
He dragged out the body to the open grave he had prepared and buried it.
As he finished, a small wooden cross was left on the freshly filled hole, reading: 'Yamaneko no Naku Roda ni. The body that died twice.'
------------------------------------------------------
Yamaneko no Naku Roda ni, Vanilla Villager, has died Night 3.
------------------------------------------------------
It is now Day 4. The Village is in a Pseudo-LyLo situation, as it has been defined in the rules. You have 120 hours to decide on a lynch.
WIth 5 left alive, three votes are rquired to lynch.
Also, I would like everyone to take care to keep discussion and arguments civil. I've been receiving some complaints about certain things that will need addressing and discussion later, I'm afraid.
-
The NK so nice they did it twice~
-
Welp. I guess this means we'd best not vote until we're sure, because if there's two scum it means they can quicklynch if we select a wrong target, and I'd rather not lose the day to the night shenanigans for luck!
This means the brunt of my attention is on Affinity for explaining what I talked about late D3, namely the curious vote. Other people I'm looking at are Kefit and Chaore, with Chaore winning over Kefit in my mind right now due to absolute fixation on me and, well, never saying anything about the NeoSerela stuff except acting as though she's a guaranteed lynch.
This may change on rereading Kefit, which I must get on today it looks like because welp, we're running low.
On second thought, it is potentially LYLO. I may have to reconsider my staunch support of UK's townieness as well.
-
It being pseudo lylo, I agree we shouldn't vote yet.
I also want to toss massclaim out there. I...sorta support it but am not sure if it's the wisest move yet. Since it's PSEUDO lylo that implies there's still a role out there that can save us.
Regardless...hmm...
Well, ok, I'm still pretty sure on Kefit. I don't think much of my case on him was based on Serela.
The other scum, assuming three...hmm...
Well, ok, here's the thing. The only person I feel good about at this point is Affinity, and even that's fading for obvious reasons. Chaore still bugs me, and Bard bugs me for his little game yesterday. I don't see how town could have predicted ANY townie doing anything so utterly STUPID. It feels almost like scum who knew the alignment of the player in question trying to get unlikely town cred off them. The problem is...that's kinda farfetched...
Hmm...so, to start, I guess I'll ask how you at all concluded that Serela was making an incredibly dumb gambit, Bard.
(Also, how embarassing about the Serela wagon comment I made ^-^;)
-
I didn't conclude it. I only had a warm fuzzy feeling that caused me to panic. In the end I took responsibility and even hammered her; I supported her lynch and do not think for even a moment that my panic attack would endear me to anyone. I'll admit it looked wishywashy and therefore scummy, but I maintain that I had difficulty seeing profit on either side for such actions.
I'd find claiming credit for starting the wagon on obvScum also to be a bit weird anyway. Even though obvScum turned out to be town.
On roleclaims, for now, I think abstaining from claiming for a few hours is fine. There are some role-related mysteries that we should tackle definitely, but now is not the time until we've hashed out primary suspects.
I'll get on that when I return. Four people, two of whom are scum. Statistically, even if I vote blindly, there's a 50% chance I nail scum. I admit to some optimism here. Currently still looking strongest at Affinity, then at Chaore. Kefit after, UK comes in last, but... nah, WIFOM.
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Well, the 50% chance is nice, and I think that we can at least lynch scum today if we lynch Kefit ;).
More seriously though, do you think I should full claim yet? I think it'll help with everyone's choices.
Anyway, going to say now my voting preference list is:
Kefit
Chaore
Bard
Affinity
Not sure what to make of your answer, Bard. I can see it, but it still just looks plain weird.
Anyway, other people need to show up so they can list suspects and weigh in on massclaim.
-
I will just say that regarding the Kefit vote on Polaris, I was not satisfied at it being the only case that Kefit made and him sticking it above and below various other easy targets for rather easy reasons (e.g no vote is more scummy than fluffy vote but that in itself sounded too convenient). Voting Polaris itself wasn't bad; it was more the lack of anything lasting Kefit had raised than anything else that voting for Polaris only made worse (e.g Kefit looked as if he was just pretending to scumhunt with that).
With Serela flipping town (geh), I have to redo everything now. UK seems a little bit more interesting now. Bard and Kefit have very little currency now (everyone Bard talked about in depth except Chaore). Chaore is a question mark and an enigma. Not very good... My guess is on Kefit now for partially helpful but rather shoddy opinions stated yesterday, but that will take tomorrow to flesh out.
-
Re Massclaim: Remember, scum have a kill tonight, and probably a roleblock as well. That's almost certainly enough to stop whatever role is capable of saving town, presuming scum knows what said role is. Thus, I see three options at this point:
1) No massclaim whatsoever. Less information for everyone. Probably smallest chance of catching scum today due to less info, but largest chance of town being saved tonight and moving on to d5 anyway.
2) Massclaim today, but the role capable of saving town either keeps quiet about his role entirely, or merely remains silent on the aspect of the role that could save town in the case of a mislynch. This seems to give the best of both worlds (lots of info for scumhunting today + preserving chance to rescue town), but at the cost of forcing a townie to partially lie about a roleclaim today and then contradict himself tomorrow. Furthermore, since adopting this plan implicitly excuses at least one player from fake claiming, scum would be free to change their claims tomorrow and try and take credit. Plus, looking at the Neo situation, I think it's easy to conclude that false claiming simply is not in town's best interests. Basically, this will muck up d5 whether or not we catch scum today.
3) Full massclaim. Best chances of catching scum today. d5 will be smoothest, but will only exist if town doesn't mislynch and lose here.
Between these three options, I support #3. I value additional information at this juncture more highly than I value the possibility of town being saved tonight with an unknown probability of success. I cannot support plan #2, both on basic principles of Mafia and on the practical concerns described above. Of course, there may be other options available for handling this, and I'm all ears to other suggestions.
--
My money's still on Chaore for the poor quality of his d3 case against Bard and the dearth of commentary on other players. After that, I'm not sure. UK's roleclaim seems awfully convenient and mildly suspect after Neo's flip, I'm not impressed with the analysis Bard provided when I pressed him at the end of d3, and Affinity no longer looks so great for keeping Neo within a vote of being lynched for most of the end of d2. Sorting through this is going to take some careful rereads, and I would prefer that we come to a conclusion on the massclaim issue first so as to prevent a possible waste of time and energy during rereads and analysis.
-
^What Kefit's analysis says is that he suspects everyone and doesn't even care to order them in any preference, because that would be *gasp* committing to a stance.
Regardless, the analysis of massclaim is decent.
-
After a reread, I will say that Kefit is my choice as scum for the following reasons.
D1: Kefit spends D1 going after newbies (huhwhat) here (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,7063.msg435730.html#msg435730) and here (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,7063.msg436113.html#msg436113). No issues with the first post, but the second post comes seems to be containing some padding (e.g Bard and UK are town because of catfight; an opinion not followed up at all and thus useless) and questionable additional justification for huhwhat's lynch (safety vote on new target? Really?). Also rather passive scumhunting; he just says that "it's not enough" and just keeps his vote there. Other than that, nothing really of note, and nothing really damning.
D2: This is by far Kefit's worst day. I echo KilgaNobu's sentiment that going after Polaris the entire day is really really lazy considering that Polaris didn't do anything on D2 (though it might be acceptable for early D2). Not making another case with greater currency at that point has to be considered scummy to some extent, and worsening this, he just attaches a very very rough opinion of other viable cases here (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,7063.msg437938.html#msg437938) without explaining why he specially went for Polaris (he did later, but it's explanation after the fact). Also attaches a rather weak and irrelevant 'experience' argument to pad his case against Polaris, which didn't need any explaining in the first place. Defenses against Nobu rather shoddy too.
D3: His analysis post here (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,7063.msg441312.html#msg441312) looks impressive at first sight, but as I raised here (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,7063.msg441825.html#msg441825) some of the opinions seem quite silly and are borderline padding (especially on Nobu). I also disagree with some of the things he said about Chaore (avoiding bandwagon analysis by being a sole vote on Bardiche? That could have happened with you on D2). However, counterbalancing is some original thoughts on players like UK, but sadly this was not followed up on. Also, while UK may have been extremely antagonistic with her vote on you, that doesn't absolve you from answering it at all. It's your opinion, and it's up to you to defend it (though I don't agree with UK voting you because of that post and her neutral ISO). Sorry for that mistake about you unvoting too.
---
Conclusion is that while Kefit had some original stuff so far, I don't like his fixation on newbies at the expense of views on more experienced players on D1 and D2 and still, his preference for Polaris bugs me (even after the explanations that followed after the fact). Some of his opinions are also rather fluid and not adequately supported, which is always scummy. He's not as scummy as I thought, and I'm not ready to vote for now.
---
However, regarding Bardiche...
In this post (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,7063.msg441985.html#msg441985), you slam Chaore for not doing something with his vote since his avenue is not pursued, but Kefit had done the same thing as Chaore to Polaris. What is the difference between the two?
More on Chaore and UK tomorrow.
-
extremely antagonistic my ass.
But, anyway, what's your opinion on massclaim, Affinity? Or did you provide it earlier?
-
Doesn't look like the massclaim issue is going to be resolved soon, so I guess I'll move forward and get some work done with the info I currently have available. I'm not feeling very well today though, so I probably won't get very far.
Affinity, you question my failure to defend myself from UK's attack. My reasoning was simple - I didn't want to succumb to UK's antagonistic baiting and start a distracting bitchfest. However, it seems that a retort would be appreciated, so here goes:
Let's start with the post here (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,7063.msg441846.html#msg441846). Most of this is antagonistic fluff. UK's main attacks on me seem to be the following:
1) Insisting that she started the d2 wagon against Neo rather than Nobu, as I stated in my post. This is false. While UK may have placed the first vote on Neo for that day, Nobu presented the actual case against Neo that others latched on to. In other words, Nobu is the one who is actually responsible for igniting the wagon. Subsequent voters for Neo referenced Nobu's case, rather than UK's vote (see here (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,7063.msg438712.html#msg438712) and here (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,7063.msg438789.html#msg438789)).
2) That I am suspicious of more people than there are remaining scum players. However, this is the reality of playing a game of substantially incomplete information - I end up cautious of everyone. I am, however, more suspicious of some players than others, which I explained at the time.
UK's ISO on me (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,7063.msg441932.html#msg441932) fails to really say much. First, she points out that I was wrong on my D2 stance on Neo (ironically, I wasn't). Even if I was actually wrong, being incorrect in a game of incomplete information is certainly not damning. UK also attacks my stance on her unvote (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,7063.msg438845.html#msg438845) and claims I am hypocritical, since I myself opted not to vote for Neo and instead waited for night information to reach a conclusion on the issue. However, the problem here is that UK didn't provide any reason for her unvote except for "I'm not sure I want to get into [this] right now." Fairly arbitrary reasoning there. Certainly, she didn't cite the emergence of more info from the night phase, and only began to offer that explanation after it was presented by other players.
UK also has a post (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,7063.msg441854.html#msg441854) mostly dedicated to defending herself from the case I presented on her. Her points generally boil down to one question: how have her actions been outright scummy, or done with scum intent? The answer here is simple, and one UK has relied upon herself several times (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,7063.msg438187.html#msg438187) this game for her cases on other players (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,7063.msg441932.html#msg441932). That is, while her words and actions may not have directly benefited scum, they failed to benefit town. This is sufficient to register as scummy between experienced players.
Blhraghu I've reached my limit for now. I'll start with my rereads once I have enough energy to think about this stuff again (read: probably tomorrow).
-
1) Still the first vote.
2) No.
Um...basically your entire post is just...no. I mean...it's...wrong. Just...wat.
The...I can't really say anything about it because the very premises SUCK.
-
Surprised I didn't come back to more.
Massclaim: All for a massclaim. I frankly don't like our chances of surviving tonight, especially if we apparently just lynched the Doctor. It's useless WIFOM to try and guess if the wolves will be able to get their kill off tonight- and sometimes, it's much like the end of the actual WIFOM game in Princess' Bride. No matter what you did, you lose. What isn't WIFOM is our chances of survival if we do lynch scum- a whooping 100% chance. I'd like to put everything towards -that- rather than an immaterial number of survival.
Currently going to say the only person I feel good about is Affinity- Nothing really bugs me too much about his/her play. Of the remaining three, UK is my least prefered to lynch as I can still kind of see where she's getting her ideas. I don't entirely agree with how she pulls them out, but I can get her process somewhat. Between Kefit and Bard, I'd frankly prefer to see Bard lynched. Yesterday was another example of him sitting on an easy target until he has to do something. The bit towards the end of the day with him and Kefit doesn't rub me right as well, though it may be the awkward wording- And the fact it's basically him trying to excuse himself from not giving opinions during D3 that aren't on me or Neo.
-
Not much time. Uni etc.
@Affinity: difference is that I read Chaore but not Kefit.
-
~ About 74 hours left ~
-
Outstanding issues and mysteries that need to be resolved are:
1) Zakeri's death on N1 with no townie death on N1 (latter can be explained by UK's role or Serela's protect).
2) Kilga being roleblocked on N1.
3) The nature of UK's role and why she did not protect Kilga on N2.
4) Whether she was roleblocked on N2 or, more importantly, N3.
With this, I think a massclaim is highly recommended, especially on the nature of UK's role. I roleclaim Vanilla Villager.
---
I need to make some revisions to the Kefit post, since I typed it rather hastily last night. In D3, he defended himself against KilgaNobu's point about him voting for a person who was about to be modkilled (e.g Polaris) satisfactorily (this was what thought when I voted him too), but not against his resting of his vote on Polaris the entire D2. It's okay to refuse to defend yourself and accept stuff to keep the game moving, but I'm not very sure of this since the game pretty much stopped on Serela on that point. Kefit, what did you think of your D2 conduct against my and Nobu's points?
Also, Kefit's play regarding those who are not easy to target has been irritatingly defensive. What irritates me most is that in his previous post, he seems to have forgotten that he actually made the points against UK in the first place and ends up sadly defending himself without counter-attacking. Some of them don't really apply anymore, but it did seem to signal an interest in real scumhunting. The reason why I liked that opinion post dissolves very quickly; it's as if his opinions weren't real enough to commit to a solid stance.
-
Yeah, at this point I'll full claim.
Without further ado...
I shot Zakeri Night 1!!!
My role, put simply, was fucking awesome. The essentia of it was I had two potions. A poison, and a potion of protection. Poison is exactly what it says on the tin. I use it, target someone, they DIE. Really, I'm surprised no one realized that I'm probably the only person who would actually SHOOT Zak N1.
The other potion I explained. I was able to make a list of people. If the wolves target someone on that list, the potion is used and the kill fails.
EACH POTION IS ONE SHOT. Well, one shot when consumed. The protection potion would last until I successfully protected from a kill. Apparently my protection of Kilga resolved before Serela's, since I no longer have that potion. My kill potion would get used when someone died. I'm not COMPLETELY sure what would happen had Serela protected my kill target, actually. It might go away anyway. But that's not incredibly important right now since I've been a vanilla villager since D2 ^-^;.
Ah, right, yes, I was able to use both potions in the same night, obviously. I was honestly quite surprised when Sakana said I could.
Kefit should go next.
-
Also, I'm pretty sure I claimed one shot on my potions in my half claim post, which would answer half those questions ^-^;.
-
I am a Vanilla Villager.
Affinity: Yes, that was a defensive post. Unfortunately, I was too tired yesterday to get to a counter-attack against UK. The general gist of it is that UK's play this game has been full of airy antagonism, vaporous rolename shenanigans (not once, but twice), an altogether unnecessary roleclaim, loud proof positive proclamations that others are scum based on fairly poor cases, and constant reminders that SHE was the one who voted for Zak on d1. This raucous and ultimately ineffectual gameplay has largely been in lieu of real, substantive scumhunting analysis.
I decline to make the detailed case now because UK's roleclaim is intriguing. While I find the power level of the role difficult to believe (especially in a game with another full doc), her claim is currently the only explanation we have for Zak's death on d1. If no other explanation arises, then UK's claim will be solid, and I will probably drop the case against her despite the substantial misgivings I have towards her play.
As for my d2 vote, I feel I've explained this already. My vote on Polaris early d2 was because I thought he was scummy and was hoping others would think like me. Obviously, this was not the case. When it came time for me to reassess my vote in the later parts of the day, I felt that Polaris had become far worse than every other player due to his failure to do anything at all on d2. I reiterated my case, hoping people would notice this, but again my efforts fell on deaf ears. Changing my vote at that juncture, with a plan to return to Polaris at the end of the day would not have accomplished anything, and I honestly still have a really hard time understanding why you did that yourself.
Speaking of irritating, Affinity you certainly have been narrow-mindedly talking about me lately. You keep reiterating the same points against me and keep asking me to answer substantially the same questions, and in the process have made several misrepresentations due ostensibly to not having read my posts well enough. Why are you focusing so much on me in lieu of pursuing analysis on other players? I understand that you may be waiting for roleclaim info before pursuing full analysis of everyone (much as I am), but why then do you continue to pick on my case while we wait for the claims? I find this lack of attention given to the other players of this game to be increasingly unsettling.
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Whoops, wrong account.
I am Cirno and responsible for the post above.
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Well, you DO realize it's two one shot actions, right Kefit? It's not THAT powerful outside of the guaranteed protect.
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About 48 hours to go
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@Kefit: You might think that pursuing someone alone is good enough to look town, but my beef with you is that you just merely rested your vote on Polaris on D2 without doing anything else, as I said before. You could have at least given opinions on other players but you did not (As I said, I thought your vote was fine, but it was so unremarkable as your sole contribution to D2)
Furthermore, I don't see much of the misrepresentations you point out; despite a few silly mistakes on my part, the case still stands mostly on your D2 conduct and some things in your D3 and D4 posts which I find suspect and townie-pretending. Saying Nobu is town for 'continued pressure on Neo' (which is so obvious to do since he was obvscum at that moment) and 'keeping vote on Neo' when he had simply no time to read is somewhat hilarious padding, as well as saying that Chaore's case on Bardiche was 'alright on D2' but 'unimpressive on D3'. Lastly, you shouldn't be defending UK because she attacked you and I asked you to, you should be defending your reasons for suspecting her as scum. The two should go hand in hand.
UK's claim is not necessarily solid because scum could NK their own brethren to support scum UK's claim, and it would still fit the information we have.
---
Bardiche, on the whole, seems more sincere about his scumhunting than Kefit, even though they have progressed along similar paths in the early days of lynching the easiest possible targets and not saying anything on the others. However, there is little of the problems that plague Kefit's conduct; the issue of 'why lynch this newbie and not the other' has always been clear since D1 and on the whole more convincing, Scumhunting is also more active than that of Kefit; more questioning and pursuing than Kefit's vote-resting. However, the lack of opinions on others still draws a blank; what he said on D3 about UK and NobuKilga being most townie-looking, etc. is largely unsubstantiated and useless now. Have to say that he looks most townie of the lot, but not very due to lack of relevant content.
Chaore has a very very dedicated stance against Bardiche and really nothing much more. This case, however, is something I agree with on a fundamental level; looking town by going for newbies and raising easy solid cases in exchange for comments on more competent players. However, it is not clear as to why he would want to go for Bardiche and not Kefit; he says that Bardiche rested his vote on a useless townie on D3 (but Kefit also did that on D1/2). His views seem tinged by something personal, and are on the whole (aside form that on Bard), not that concrete. He gets points for originality but there isn't much to talk about or latch on to. I feel that he's town, but mostly by gut.
Uk... is complicated. More on her later.
-
...does bofh need to slap you Affinity? Do...do you realize what you are proposing? I really, really, hope you are proposing that as a low order probability because there are SO many problems with that theory about my claim.
SO many problems. But, I'll leave it "why are you proposing a conspiracy theory just how many times has a conspiracy theory won MotK mafia OH THAT'S RIGHT ZERO"
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Huh, just read Kefit's post outside the roleclaim. What's funny is my "loud, antagonistic, ineffectual, non scumhunting play" has caught exactly one more scum than you have all game. It will probably catch a second once we slip some well deserved rope around your neck.
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EBWOP: Yes, that's more rhetoric, rhetoric is bad, but I mean, seriously, if you're going to say something at least back it up with reality
(waits to be called on this for something she said earlier in the game. I don't even know what, but I'm sure it'll happen)
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On Affinity.
First vote (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,7063.msg436320.html#msg436320) is a hop on the huhwhat bandwagon, which is not weird in itself except the final post before lynch is (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,7063.msg436572.html#msg436572). I mean, "the main thing" being that Huhwhat has no clue on who is scum.
On day 1.
Let me repeat that because it is important. Holding it against someone that they have no clue who scum is on D1. That's a bit weird I'd say. The lackluster defence is a true point but holding it against him that he was clueless is rather weird.
Day 2: vote Kilga (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,7063.msg437732.html#msg437732), which is not so weird except Affinity here (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,7063.msg438712.html#msg438712) criticises Kefit and I for pursuing the people who drop scummy hints left and right, claiming they are "too easy". This strikes me as a weird sentiment, again, because the Huhwhat case from D1 based itself on Huhwhat being scummy despite that he was also derpy.
Turning around and then chiding those pursuits seems weird at best, especially if you follow it up with condemning Polaris (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,7063.msg439565.html#msg439565) who was "too easy a case".
Back on the previous link, Affinity jumps off Kilga without further mentioning him, and coincidentally, Kilga dies that night. It's like scum was trying to get rid of him. :V
We continue on with the http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,7063.msg439565.html#msg439565 (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,7063.msg439719.html#msg439719)statement that Nat Tea be given a "newbie pass"[/url] and attacks on Polaris who was, earlier, an "easy case". It seems absurdly hypocritical. The consequent LAL (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,7063.msg440039.html#msg440039) sentiment is completely ignored by Chaore who is still the heaviest proponent of "OMG BARD IS CHASIN TEH LURKZ!1!!" and it makes me raise a wary frown at him.
Overall, though, would not support a particularly strong case on Affinity at the moment.
The other of my targets, of course, remains to be Chaore with his completely one-sided devotion to me, and consequently his ignoring of Affinity's LAL sentiments makes me curious and I would like to hear from him on why I am so bad for chasing lurkers on D2 allegedly (as I refuted time and again, it was just a common trait they shared but not my main beef) when Affinity took similar actions and comes off scot-free?
As for why I thought UK was most townie along with Kilga: Kilga acted Townie, and come on, UK being the town vig was obvious. NO ONE but UK thought Zakeri was scum on D1, and coincidentally Zakeri DIES. The only one smug enough to believe Zakeri really was scum at that time was UK, so I obviously assumed she'd killed him.
As a result yes, UK is the least scummy person to me outside of far-out gambits and honestly, if one such is pulled then bravo. Rest of teh conduct has not been worrying in the least.
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To be fair, I'd have shot N1 whether I was sure of scum or not. It's my MO. Not the most optimal play but certainly the most fun. But, more importantly why I'm responding is are you going to claim, Bardiche?
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Vanilla of course. All claims to role heaviness are seemly false.
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So I guess that leaves Chaore.
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Vanilla.
@Bard: I am almost literally incapable of responding to you rationally at the moment, due to a great deal of stress on my side that is hampering my ability to coherently voice my thoughts in a form other than antagonistic babble. I will however frown at your continued misunderstanding of why am I going after you, when you clearly seem to understand when you need to. I suspect you are still working off of your demeaning assumption I just attacked you because you were going after lurkers and I am having low presence, thus at risk.
My attack is because I believe you are scummy, not because I am afraid you are going to lynch me. I believe you've done nothing by pointing that out other than prove that.
-
... again, Chaore. You fail to understand that I was being sarcastic there. If I could get people lynched with LAL in mind only I'd have field days each game. That you've been so zealously going after me for two game days and I STILL fail to grasp the truth of your case says large things about the content and presentation of it.
Now then, as you are convinced I am scum, why not share your thoughts on who my scum partner is, as I cannot operate alone?
So the choice for me falls between three vanillas, namely Affinity, Kefit and Chaore, as for now I am not too keen on lynching UK barring some really weird shenanigans.
Of those, Affinity does not strike me as too scummy as I raised below. Despite the questionable things, they are more weird to me than that they are scummy, and for now I am not entirely convinced of guilt on the scummy side in this matter.
Chaore himself strikes me as blinded by personal dislike towards me born from a misunderstanding of my sarcasm. While this is not particularly scummy, his complete fixation on me renders him a liability to town. I consider him to be on the Deltaflyer-level of Mafia at this point in time and feel that anyone supporting his lynch is going for a very, very obvious one that is more a misguided Town having the tenacity of a cockroach on a doomed case than it is a scum person trying their hardest to get a mislynch in.
D2, D3 and now D4 are DayBard to Chaore, and that alone says enough about the dangers he presents to Town: absolutely none, for his attempts are fruitless.
As such, by pure process of elimination, we arrive at Kefit must be scum. But then, who is his partner? As I believe Chaore is Derp, then either Affinity or UK is the last ace. UK is possible only if we assume that Scum NKed one of their own, and their reward would be this WIFOM net. It is certainly a possibility that exists, but not worth considering at this juncture.
The other is of course Affinity of who I re-iterate that she has not been that absurdly weird. The pushing on Kefit seems more legit than Kefit's pointing at Chaore regardless; whereas Affinity pursues the Uncertain Case, Kefit picks on the one who doesn't concern me in the slightest.
Kefit's one-sided devotion to Polaris on D2 has also raised a frown, and as such I am content enough in my belief that I will vote Kefit.
##Vote: Kefit
##Unvote: Kefit
... after we have the obligatory round of responses to mass roleclaim, for all that I think it is useless. Will vote Kefit when I wake up tomorrow regardless, barring someone's insightful insights making me cartwheel around at discerning the truth and the real scum.
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Obviously I'd vote Kefit. I'm surprised only pseudolylo is being engaged in, and I anticipate someone besides the scum are lying. Not that I don't understand.
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@UK: GWU Mafia is an example when that gambit worked. And Bamboo Forest is an example when a D1 conflict was staged (with Kilga), by you actually. I was the hero then, but sigh, that was emotionally stressful. In my opinion, the probability of that role occurring (with a Hunter and Healer already on the list, guaranteed protect etc.) is equivalent to the chance of a scum gambit. And bofh was on your side in Bamboo Forest so...
---
@Bardiche: A response:
I have to say that catching scum by the process of elimination is... bewildering in the least. The line between derp, weird, and scum, is after all, very very fine, and not saying much about Kefit's scuminess by itself feels very awkward. Especially when you are invariably eliminating one other scum.
---
@UK:
Alright; UK's lynch isn't very likely for today at least, but there are several things we can look at to determine the truth of her role. Her outburst with Zakeri (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,7063.msg436414.html#msg436414), her incredibly sudden fixation on Kefit (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,7063.msg441846.html#msg441846), and her lack of contribution after that fixation etc. might say a few things.
Kilga's little analysis (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,7063.msg437837.html#msg437837) on that outburst still holds relevance despite Zakeri flipping scum; I myself agree that some elements of that questioning is quite reactionary and unreasonable and that she caught Zakeri more by chance than anything else (if UK is town). For example, seeing him scummy for not voting her at a time when it wouldn't make any use.
Zakeri's case also hardly warrants a vote at that stage of the game from UK because there were plenty of other misrepresentations (for example, Serela against Nobu etc.) Either emotion is involved or merely the gambit. I also don't see why scumZak would pursue UK with such specifically tailored reasons so late in the day (unless he wants to pretend to have an original case, but even that...), except if he wanted to activate this little scum gambit. For example, Zakeri's reasons:
So far, UK is my biggest pursuit. Active Lurking, Admiting to Active lurking in post 71, General Suspicions thrown at anyone who complains in her direction, The long argument with Bard that I felt the need to skip over. The half explained gutvote on huhwhat. Much of this can be attributed to UK being UK, but it's hard for me at this point is see her completely clean of scum intent.
Only the first point has any relevance, and one that can be attached to many others. Admitting to Active Lurking can also be attached to people like Polaris and Nat Tea. Third and fourth are irrelevant. Half-explained gutvote is also done by other players in the game. It's almost as if Zakeri had to try very hard to dig up dirt on UK so sadly, and if UK was town, it would be for very little benefit. Even the last sentence of that quote is very weird (see her completely clean of scum intent? Huh?) It feels staged, and combined with the vig/doc one-shot she has and her lack of scumhunting drive after the Kefit thing, it feels very much to me that UK is scum, and that a self NK is so much more convincing. Other reasons can be found in Kilga's post which applies here.
Her partner is possibly Kefit. UK's argument with Kefit also seems staged as it was not the slightest bit telegraphed before (even she admits that Kefit's conduct before was not scummy or townie), and because UK seemed fine with me just because I didn't put any padding in my post (which doesn't seem very important; I also don't understand how raising scummy possibilities and discarding them for reasons makes anyone more scummy). Also, Kefit doesn't have any of that scumhunting drive against UK and pretty much ignores her until called out for it, in which his attacking position becomes a defensive position. UK doesn't actively pursue him either. But this part is not as confirmed, I feel; Bardiche previous post makes me feel uneasy about him.
Therefore: ##Vote: UK
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...you might wanna unvote because the scum are going to quicklynch me, assuming you aren't, Affinity.
Anyway, main problem with your case is...um...is it REALLY worth losing what would assumably be 1/3 of my team for this ambiguous ~*~town cred~*~, especially when odds are Zak wasn't getting lynched with my case? Scum win by numbers. The game becomes INCREASINGLY HARD as there are less players, from a scum POV. So, you're suggesting NOT ONLY did I kill Zakeri for some stupid gambit, thusly reducing my team's numbers, and ALSO not thinning out the town, presumably by attempting to kill pretty much the strongest townie (Kilga)...but you're also implying I'd claim to kill Zak, and tack on some protection thing to push what was already an assured mislynch, claiming what would be an unlikely role that will get me suspected, when I could have just claimed vig, thus throwing away my ~*~town cred~*~...you know what, I can't even continue, this is ridiculous Affinity turn your fucking brain on goddammit.
There's WIFOM, and then there's a point where one would have to be stupid to take a course of action. You are proposing that myself, Zakeri, AND Kefit (or Bard), are ALL so stupid as to kill our own person and hope some ~*~crazy town cred plan~*~ works. Why do you think I'm stupid Affinity? Why do you think Kefit is stupid, Affinity? Please, I want to know why you malign us so much.
You're making a mistake Affinity. And if I DO get lynched, you are going to regret it. (Sorry, that sounds threatening, I mean it more as "if you have an ounce of care for the game you'll realize how ridiculous your proposition was after the fact, and essentially realize you talked yourself into it on the extreme offchance you were right)
Anyway, outside of the fact that a gambit would be ridiculously stupid that early in the game, I believe your case has inconsistencies, which FURTHER implies you are trying REALLY HARD to convince yourself of this because it would be ~*~cool~*~ if you were right.
I disagree I've lacked contribution after catching Kefit scum. Please elaborate on that.
Further, you've misrepped my case on Zak. It was less him not voting me and more the nature and tone of his case, which I'm PRETTY SURE I said at that time. Further, while misreps existed, you overgeneralize them. Zakeri's misrep was more of the scummy variety because it's intent appeared to be to confuse or to set up a situation that didn't benefit town. Neo's misrep was trying to justify his jump on Nobu. Hell, I still probably read it as scummy. Also, Zak's post contained a lot of IIoA on everyone except me. I'm NOT completely sure I said that, but I'm pretty sure I did.
Anyway, you're also arguing that Zak's case wasn't scummy, except that it was scummy. Basically, you tear apart Zak's case for scumminess and weirdness, but then say I could not have picked that up. You can't have it both ways, Affinity.
And...um...what about Kefit not being pursued by me? Perhaps you're missing something about the fact I'd be voting him, and have declared my intent to do so ever since he claimed scum with his terrible case on me. Obviously I wanted Serela lynched first, given the relative certainty of his scumminess (which alas didn't work)
Maybe you missed something? You know, about the fact it's LYLO!? That'd explain the vote as well.
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##Vote: UK
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##Vote:UK
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This was not supposed to post.
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Nominate Affinity for scum MVP
That was pretty, damned, stupid Affinity, and I hope you never, NEVER entertain such a goddamned STUPID conspiracy theory EVER AGAIN in your mafia career.
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That's the hammer. Kindly wait for Sakana to make the evening post.
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~ Day 4 over ~
UncertainKitten, Village Witch, has been lynched by majority.
You are the Village Witch.
Through years of experience you have created two powerful potions, and it seems now is the time to use them.
Be careful though, you can only use each potion one single time.
Your first potion is one that will ##save someone from the Wolves' fangs.
You can send a list of people you would be willing to save, including yourself, via PM at night.
If any of those people is targeted that night by the Wolves, they will survive.
The list will expire if none of the people on it needs to be saved and you will need to send in a new list the next time
Your second potion is a powerful ##poison that you can use to kill a single target.
You can use both potions in a single night, if you wish so.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
The game is not over yet. It is now Night 4. You have 24 hours to send in Night Actions.
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Night 4 Ended.
Affinity, Village Old Man, was mauled by the Wolves after being roleblocked.
You are the Village Old Man.
You have lived a long and eventful life, and you know one thing: Those Wolves are not gonna get you easily!
Your experience allows you to survive a single attack by the Wolves.
In addition to that, if you die by the hands of the village, they will grieve over their mistake and lose all their special abilities for the next night.
Bardiche. Vanilla Villager, was ripped to pieces, being the only Villager left
------------------------------------ THE VILLAGE HAS LOST. THE WOLVES CELEBRATE THEIR VICTORY-------------------------
Chaore, Wolf in sheep's clothing, is howling happily at the full moon. This Village is the Wolves' now, time to search for new prey.
You have been hit by an unfortunate infection with Lycanthropy, thus making you a Werewolf that roams the village at night in search for prey.
However, you are special. You are a Wolf in Sheep's clothing, and will appear as a Villager to any type of investigation.
Kefit, Alpha Wolf Shama, performs a ritual dance around the corpses under the full moon. This went just as planned.
You have been hit by an unfortunate infection with Lycanthropy, thus making you a Werewolf that roams the village at night in search for prey.
But you are not just a simple Wolf. You are a Shaman, with the power to ##seal people's special powers. Every night you can choose a single target via PM whose abilities you want to block.
You are also the Alpha Wolf of your pack, which consists of Zakeri and Chaore. It is your task to send in the Nightkill for the Wolves via PM.
--------------------------------------------------
When the Stranger woke up that day, it was still dark.
He got up, ready to perform his daily duties, when he noticed the silence.
"Hmm, that was to be expected. No chance they'd make that mistake at the last moment.", he smirked.
As he opened the door, he saw the bright full moon over the village.
And in the center, beneath the tree...
"You two seem to be happy. Guess you got the last ones, eh?"
The two people lurking under the tree, ripping apart two bodies, were Kefit and Chaore.
As they spotted him, Kefit drew his staff to seal the Stranger's powers.
Chaore jumped forward to dig his claw's into the man's stomach, but he was repelled by an invisible force.
"Sorry, you can't have me. I have other villages that need my attention."
The two Werewolves grumbled, but let off the man immediately.
"Well, well, that was certainly eventful. I shall be on my way now, if fate wills it, we shall see each other again some day."
With a short wave, the Stranger turned around and disappeared into the dark.
In the Village, under a bright full moon, the Wolves howled happily to the moon.
~ Werewolf Mafia - The End ~
--------------------------------------
Congratulations, Wolves. You played a nice game against a pretty powerful Village.
----------------------------------------
Disclaimer: Since I'm sure to receive complaints about the setup, let's tell the story where it comes from right now:
The whole setup is taken from the commercialized version of Mafia that I play in real life, Werewolf. In that game, Wolves actually have no powers at all. Yes, it's THAT unbalanced. Some roles had to be slightly modified in their execution so that they could be used online (normally, for example, the Witch gets shown the victim each night, but that would have dragged the game too much).
Roles and alignments were split, so the Wolves could have ended up with powerful roles, but RNG willed it that they didn't.
For such a case, the roles you see on the Wolves were designed by Serpentarius and me, to give the Wolves at least some sort of power to work with, and indeed, they would have stood no chance without those. This setup was, in my eyes, more biased towards the Villagers, however with roles that could hurt the Village as much as they could help it.
So yeah, complaints about the setup are one thing, but please don't blame me ( at least not for everything ) :V
-------------------------
Thoughts on the game, list of Night Actions and all will follow in a bit. You may now celebrate and discuss the game, but keep it civil.
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One step forward, five steps back.
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WTF TOWN HOW DID YOU NOT MANAGE TO KILL ANY MAFIA
Oh wait they were werewolves.
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/me bleets
Surprised I actually lasted the entire game. Going to be my last one though- I've not the schedule to play mafia at the moment, which is a shame- and was definitely witnessed the game and called out by multiple people.
Bar any requests for Removal, I'll be able to run GDIC when it's my turn though.
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I've pretty much been wrong all game so ehhh. Kinda sad since I won't be playing for the next two games (co-modding then actually modding and all), but oh well.
WTF TOWN HOW DID YOU NOT MANAGE TO KILL ANY MAFIA
UK killed Zakeri, didn't she?
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UK killed Zakeri, didn't she?
Even in postgame, it doesn't stop.
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UK killed Zakeri, didn't she?
Pfft, she killed a stinkin' werewolf.
And it was only Zakeri, we're used to him dying horribly anyway.
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Even in postgame, it doesn't stop.
I don't know what you mean by that so :s
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And it was only Zakeri, we're used to him dying horribly anyway.
Come to think of it, me and Kefit really should've been less surprised that happened.
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Affinity made a solid case on UK. Part of the reasoning of that case involved my bad case on her, late in the day. Do you know what this means?
MVP right here, baby
Whoo-hah! Oh yeah~!
*Poses like an idiot for five minutes*
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Role Action List:
Prody: Chose Kefit and himself as the Lovers. <-- Yes, there were third party Lovers at the start.
Polaris: ##Target Nobu <--- Too bad he had to be modkilled, I had looked forward to writing Flavor for his role.
------------------------------------
N1:
UK: ##Protect: Bard, Kilga, Kefit
##Poison: Zakeri
Kilga: ##Investigate: Nobu
NeoSerela: ##Protect: Kilga
Kefit: ##Nightkill Bardiche <-- As you can see, that was prevented by UK, using up her potion
##Seal: Kilga <---- Poor Kilga never got a single result on his role ;__;
--------------------------------------
N2:
Kilga: ##Investigate: NeoSerela <--- Was never resolved, as he died. However, since the Seer can be very powerful, Serp and I had decided on only granting the Seer a result every two nights, so he wouldn't have gotten anyhting here either :3
NeoSerela: ##Protect NeoSerela
Kefit: ##Block: NeoSerela
##Kill: Kilga
-----------------------------------
N3
Kefit: ##Seal. UK
##Kill: Yamaneko
----------------------------------
N4
Kefit: ##Seal Affinity
##Kill Affinity
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Very active + potentially interesting Scum Topic here: http://www.quicktopic.com/45/H/CLrimFzXq6f
Talk about a crazy game. I had to change my gameplan practically every irl day, and Affinity is a monster of a townie. I don't agree with all his points against me, but damn did he find some nice subtle stuff. Sucks about his mistake at the end there, and honestly I just lucked out into giving him the impression that I was working with UK. That really wasn't my intention at all. I was just aligning with UK because it is my honest belief that conspiracy theories are incredibly anti-town.
My actual plan at the end of the game was to disappear completely so as to not give town (specifically Affinity) anything else to work with, and then let Chaore/Bard/Affinity go at it in the final day. My lynch was assured once Bard jumped on my case, and may have even been so before due to Affinity's lieutenant power. However, everyone was clearing Chaore, a great case against Bard was being built up in the scum topic, and I had been bussing Chaore since start of d3. It might have worked out, and was our best shot, but this game was nothing if not unpredictable.
The role shenanigans were a nightmare as well. UK's role is one of the most unbalanced things I've ever seen (a guaranteed save is ridiculous, let alone tying it to a vig power as well AND having it be in addition to a real doc), and a doc that can protect himself is also mighty powerful. UK hitting Zak n1 AND protecting Bard sucked hard (nice catch there UK, though that early in the game it was also part luck :p). The modkills helped us catch up a bit, though honestly I think we would have benefited more from having Prody and Polaris around to do nothing and get lynched so that we could kill trouble players at night. Neo's antics really bought us some time, but on the other hand a calm and collected Kilga + Affinity town turned that against us by stretching out the day forcing everyone to contribute (this post (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,7063.msg441312.html#msg441312) in particular was a nightmare to write when I knew Neo was gonna flip town).
It was very interesting to see real skilled townies go to work in the latter stages of the game. Makes me kind of wonder what Kilga and Affinity do when they pull scum...
ps: Yeah the prospect of being Prody's lover was Not Fun rofl
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Oh yeah, best part of the Wolves' QT on D1:
Unless UK is a Vig, I doubt I'd be taken down tomorrow.
:]
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It was very interesting to see real skilled townies go to work in the latter stages of the game. Makes me kind of wonder what Kilga and Affinity do when they pull scum...
We kick ass and take names. (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,1398.0.html)
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Oh yeah, best part of the Wolves' QT on D1:
:]
I'm still put off by the fact that it took the wolves until UK's claim to realize it must have been her, despite me telling them it was her before I even died. :V
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Oh yes, I believe I forgot the most important part:
~ Thanks for playing everyone.
It was very interesting, and quite eventful to see how the Werewolf setup would turn out in an online game. There were some rough spots, but I hope the game was overall enjoyable for the most. ~
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I'm still put off by the fact that it took the wolves until UK's claim to realize it must have been her, despite me telling them it was her before I even died. :V
To be fair, it took us to D3 to get she really -was- that crazy. We were a bit slow, you see.
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Yeah, our pet theory until UK claimed on d3 (after which we figured her other potion was poison) was that Bard was a paranoid gun owner.
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/spectator sport
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So if you want to know what caused me to become unable to play, try searching Google for 'mafia "village seer"' Oh hey, Google updated their cache and its not there anymore.
Anyway, searching the right combination of words like the ones I did hit upon a pastebin that had a description of everyone's roles and who was who as the second link. And I couldn't even save myself by averting my eyes, because the link itself was "NOBU, BARDICHE, HUHWHAT, CHOJA" with the quote being "Village Seer -- bla bla #investigate." So I knew simultaneously that the four of us were probably vanilla townies, and Neo was lying. :]
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Fuck. My balls dropped.
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...pastebin, Fish? This is a job for notepad. :V
Though really, I applaud you for the move of fairness Nobu.
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...pastebin, Fish? This is a job for notepad. :V
;_________________________;
I really wanted to beat my head into the desk when I got Nobu's PM. I had thought about that stuff before, and forgot it at the most crucial moments. :colonveeplusalpha:
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Funny, I had actually had some idle thoughts about whether the quick topics could be located via Google or the like. Never thought it would be an issue though, since there have to be 346246727 quick topics on every subject by now.
But yeah, Nobu handled that very well. Be like Nobu, kids.
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derp
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Yes, pesco, yes. Sigh.
Okay calmed down now. I second the scum MVP. I'm very sorry about that, UK, and I deserve every word you said against me. Goes to show that a seemingly unbalanced number of townie roles is still balanced due to the increasingly complex night actions that bewilder the heck out of town (me) and force them to come up with explanations to express their disbelief. Gosh... It might have been different if half of our townies were more experienced though (and if Serela hadn't fakeclaimed to defend himself. To his credit, it almost worked, but sadly for us townies, it's very hard to see(and accept)
Basically, there was one game in the past where UK was scum and got by the entire game due to a prolonged, pre-planned slapfight on another flipped scum. I was the only one who caught on to that. Since the same elements occurred in this game too(e.g sudden fireworks that made little sense, UK netting scum by strange means), I thought history would repeat itself, and that nothing UK would say could change my mind (like last game) Turns out I was wrong. Really, really shouldn't have voted. I hoped that she would make a more structured case or post that would ease my doubts on the last day, but that did not happen (Kefit was right in the quicktopic that I thought UK was being very scary) On N3 I was already rather convinced that she was scum actually; the more I read D1 and D3 and how sudden her votes were the more I thought it should have been staged. (I didn't remember her being that scary before my 8 month hiatus)
As for scum, Chaore achieved the mystical balance between not giving anything for town to work with and yet giving enough to appease town. There was an original case I sympathized with and saw more and more as the day went by, with Bardiche's very last post just being very argh. Even if we did lynch Kefit today, and I didn't get killed, I think Chaore would have been last on my list the next day, so good job. Only thing I could have got off of you was why Bard and not so much Kefit, etc.
Kefit, you were fine mostly but you made those few questionable things that gave me (and maybe Kilga) some leverage to go for. If you just chipped in your UK case a little bit earlier in D2 I think I would have missed you mostly. I also guess that D3 post of yours is an example of why constant pressure and vote from a small suspicion can be quite good; it adds to the evidence and the scrutiny you would be put under. And ah, thank you, but I think Kilga, u-mu, and Kiro are comparable if not better and more consistent . Read the glorious INVASION (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,2250.0.html) mafia as a counterexample. As for being scum, I suppose we just play normally as we would as townies, even to the extent of voting other scum.
Zakeri... probably would have went under my radar too. But I still find it amazing that you steered the path of the game so much with so little.
Other townies, I have nothing much to say of. Kilga played pretty well and I wish he'd caught on to the Kefit case earlier. Nobu had a surprisingly good solo showing (and handled that... thing nicely). NeoSerela I can see where he comes from, but that claim shouldn't be done again, I think. Polaris should never play here ever again. Nat Tea and Prody tried their best, but sadly it was all for naught. Bardiche, starts of okay, but grows worse and worse as we go on in my opinion. Never say that you are voting someone for elimination (even if you are). UK's way of playing is still beyond me (had a gutvote reaction when I saw the Zakeri and the Kefit vote); her D2 was nice but she could have done more after voting Kefit. Overall, an interesting game, balanced by UK's luck and town's general misdirection, with me totally destroying the scales.
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It wasn't at you, it was at Sakana.
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@Zak: Yeah, no. Affinity's case was terrible.
But, yeah, I figured shooting Zak made me obv vig.
@Affinity: Lemme put it this way. When I got hammered and told bofh to slap you in IRC, he basically said: Four words Hasty Generalization (Logical) Fallacy.
At any rate, I had a thoughts QT. So, here you go (http://www.quicktopic.com/45/H/RUtgyRcnYGZGs).
As for townies, Bard was impressive. He also caught the scum, IIRC, and ALSO realized Serela was town. Seriously, how the hell did you pick that out? Most of this post is speaking on Affinity so yeah. Serela, that was dumb. I understand the point of the gambit, but it was dumb. Especially in a game with different flavor you don't know, since it makes your claim suspect. Seriously, SCUM fakeclaim when threatened to out power roles. You do realize that with ONE MORE DAY town (possibly) could have won, right? But you ate that day. Choja, you tried. That's really all one can ask. I don't remember Polaris very well. Probably because he lurked to modkill. Seriously, don't. I do remember Prody, there's a reason you don't quote ANYTHING from your role PM. Kilga was good as usual, though his side trip on Nobu was kinda weird. Nobu also did their best but I think the vacation disrupted you a little much.
@Affinity: I keep telling you IT WASN'T LUCK
Why the hell is it that if Bard or Kilga had told all of you that Kefit, Zakeri, and Chaore were the scum, you'd hail how GREAT SCUMHUNTERS they are, but when I do it it's "luck"
When I've now eventually caught all the scum two games in a row? You know, it's beginning to piss me off. You want proof it wasn't luck? Despite the fact you, Affinity, made several terrible cases, I still knew you were town, contrasted with Kefit. Admittedly, I failed on Chaore. I could have pinned him pretty easily with a reread probably. I told you guys since like, D2, IIRC? he was clicking for me, but I didn't follow it up. Mea culpa. As for Zakeri, that WASN'T purely gut. I explained as best I could. If that wasn't good enough for you then I think you're the one who needs to improve.
@Affinity: IIRC I didn't catch Kefit til D3.
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Why the hell is it that if Bard or Kilga had told all of you that Kefit, Zakeri, and Chaore were the scum, you'd hail how GREAT SCUMHUNTERS they are, but when I do it it's "luck"
Because when you say it, you say it in a way that makes people was to instinctively disagree with you. You seriously need to learn public relations. If you go back and read up your case on me, you make it sound like you're voting me for no reason other than pure OMGUS. (Calling me scum just because I said I wanted to make a case on you). and by the time you provided your real reasoning for the case, it sounds like you're backtracking. You might have been the day 2 lynch if you didn't have that vig shot.
And no, I don't mean disrespect when I say this. I know you're a good player, and a good scumhunter. I even said as much in the Graveyard topic. All you need is to figure out how to talk to the rest of town.
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Eh, I would have gotten out of the lynch, I tend to be good at THAT, at least. I do agree I need to be better at persuasiveness, but still, people should be able to figure things out on their own and see the things I see. I also usually think I HAVE explained it. Still, I would LIKE to think the evidence implies that I certainly wasn't "lucky" this game, as some people seem to imply.
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Let's.... trade? That one was enough to make me distrust you for the rest of the game.
After all, at the very least, most of your cases were based on you rebuking other people's cases against you in the most unreadable and least convincing of ways, I suppose. And there's my thinking that if scum had never attacked you, you would have never gotten them with as much certainty (e.g even you said that there wasn't much in Kefit's ISO to go for. I also doubt that you would have vigged Zakeri D1 if he hadn't 'attacked you'). I could be wrong, but while you might have a great gut, I don't believe that you have great scumhunting that can convince people to agree with you. It's just so antagonistic and plain hard to reply to without grimacing. Even Kilga had issues with your Zakeri vote (not just me), and I hardly think that he needs that much improving either. And uh, you said that Bardiche looked worse than Chaore and yet you claim credit for catching him as scum which is quite... hmm.
As for comments on my play, I think my Kefit case was more convincing and complete than yours overall; the Serela and huhwhat case just characteristic of town overall. The case on you I believe had some basis, but it just ended up coinciding with your meta, but alright, it's terrible. You should have raised why you thought those cases (other than that on you) terrible in-game anyways. And for every Affinity you catch being town there's always a Nat Tea you thought was scum but yet town. No need to accentuate your skill over something like this.
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Heh, this is a great scum QT. Yeah, I always shoot N1 on the rare occasions I'm vig.
Also, Kefit...first you say I catch both you and Zak for the right reasons, and then say I'm lucky? What the fuck man?
Alright, you know what? Fuck you Kefit, I caught you and you'll just call me names to diminish the fact you screwed up.
Maybe I'd stop the antagonism if people would THINK before they'd post. But, I'll note something. Had Sakana told me I was crossing lines, I WOULD HAVE TRIED HARDER TO BACK OFF. Jesus christ how many times have I told you mods to TELL ME!?
Anyway, it's not OMGUS, Kefit. OMGUS implies I had NO REASON other than you casing me. That's a lie.
Cut by Affinity: Not sure about Zak. If he attacked anyone else the same way he did me, I'd still call him on it. Kefit is harder, but the rest of his post was pretty bad IIRC, and I stated why. I mostly focused on the bad case on me though.
Anyway Affinity, I suggest you look at Shoe last game, where I ALSO caught all the scum.
@Affinity: Look at my vote list in lylo. Which two people were at top?
I think you just want to feel good about your terrible play. That's the only reason you are laying into me being right. That's the only reason anyone is.
Honestly, we all need to calm the fuck down because I'm basically at the point where I temporarily hate all of you because you have to make excuses because I actually was right!
You all just want to diminish my acheivment because you didn't manage it. And that's just bullshit.
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EBWOP: No, I'm not blameless, I'm terrible at controlling myself and terrible at persuasiveness. Yes, my antagonism was needless. I still feel I should have been warned by Sakana or Serp. Hell, Serp told me D1 and you saw me dial it back! I assumed I was fine because nothing else was said directly to me. Either way, I feel you all are giving me a raw deal for some arcane reason, whether it's because you dislike me or my play or what.
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Also! To everyone.
You say my playstyle is antagonistic. You know what I want from you all? Tell me why, and tell me what I should do instead. I am PRETTY SURE that will solve a lot of the problems, since part of the problem is that I don't have any idea what's "acceptable" while getting my point across. Granted, I also shouldn't catharsis things in the game with a post. But still, be specific! Help me change, ok?
EDIT: I promise to bite my tongue and not argue, btw.
EDIT: Also, assume I don't know any better. Be condescendingly explicit. It helps, I promise.
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Oh, at that? I'd appreciate it if next time someone wants to say I'm being antagonistic, they just tell me instead of saying I'm ruining fucking everything.
When I said that hurt in the QT, I mean that literally fucking hurt me in the squishy spot, Bard. I play this game to have fun, and the idea that I'm ruining the game for others is absolutely painful. If I was town I honestly probably would've asked for a modkill after that one. I don't know if that was part of your claimed sarcasm or what the hell, you could've handled that a lot better- See exactly how Kilga and Sakana did.
It's one thing to insituate someone is scum because they're picking on newbies as a scum tactic, It's another to suggest they're scaring new players away from the game.
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Choja, you tried. That's really all one can ask.
I know that, but I also made an incredible (even ridiculous) amount of
bad decisions D1 and D2 which led to my eventual and quick demise. Let's see:
- Lied about catching up at D1 to make it so that I wasn't labelled as a lurker or worse, modkilled by Sakana.
- Dragged in what was obviously a joke from the last game I was in as a case.
- Voted for an extension when I didn't know you were going to turn your vote to another player.
- Forgot that Sakana didn't have a no-lynch rule.
- Defended Bardiche in D2 even though that was probably an extremely bad idea in itself.
- Got aggravated at the result of your reread and got myself targetted as a result.
- Thought that I was one of those potential assholes in the group of people that Kilgamayan mentions in the signups thread.
I'm finding it difficult to discover why I had fun in the last game I played in. I'll get over it. Maybe. I'm still very angry at myself for playing this bad though.
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Everyone has a bad game. Also, Choja, any responses to this post (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,7063.msg446922.html#msg446922)? I'm honestly sick of pissing people off and want to fix it.
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I think you just want to feel good about your terrible play. That's the only reason you are laying into me being right. That's the only reason anyone is.
wow
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Honestly, we all need to calm the fuck down because I'm basically at the point where I temporarily hate all of you because you have to make excuses because I actually was right!
rage, etc. I spoke out of anger. Not that I particularly regret that one because I feel like I'm getting far more than my portion of bullshit, Mr.Edible. I also feel like I'm not being given credit where credit is due, but I feel like I'm certainly getting blasted for everything I can be blasted for, and more.
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Congratulations, you were correct in mafia at the expense of alienating every other player and non-player who reads mafia games on here.
The above sentence should explain all relevant positions, I believe.
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That's nice. But you're vague. Right now, you've identified a problem. I disagree with the scale, but lets go with that assumption.
So, are you just going to talk about how terrible the problem is, or be constructive and suggest a solution? Or are you only good at the criticism part of constructive criticism? I'm open to change. I'm not open to being sniped just because you have a chip on your shoulder.
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Edible: I take it you're saying your bit out here. If so, I'll take that at face value.
UK: Back off on replying for a while please. Once the people with stuff to say have posted, wait a bit more and then respond.
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All right, let me have a try at this. People might be surprised how much of this write-up is based on personal experience.
It is also worth noting that, aside from the very obviously specific-to-UK examples (like the MotK Mafioso mention), this write-up can apply to everyone.
Mafia is an arguing-centric game, so it's only natural that people are going to get riled up. Lord only knows how many times it's happened to me over the years. The number one thing I think anyone can do when they get mad is step back. Go browse some other part of the forum, tab away from the forum entirely, or even move away from the keyboard. Take a deep breath or three. Relieve stress in a harmless manner. (Serp explained the background circumstances of that edited post to me - this is a good start! Just, yeah, as much as I'm sure you've already told yourself this, do your best to avoid that sort of slip-up again.) Most importantly, remember your win con. This is Priority One while playing Mafia. Not shouting some idiot down, not winning a moral victory. Getting town a team victory. You will do your win con better by responding to accusations with logic than with vitriol.
When you're a townie and someone makes a shaky case on you, 98% of the time, it's going to be due to one of these factors:
- The player in question is new and/or a relatively weak player. Getting mad at them will only serve to make them not want to play more. This works against your win con. If you go about dissecting their case logically without being snide or using rhetoric or insults, however, they may be internally upset that their case turned out to be wrong, but they will be upset in a way that spurs them on to find a newer, better case, and to improve as a player. Veering townies away from cases on town AND inspiring them to play better works toward your win con.
- The player in question is scum (or otherwise anti-town). Getting mad at them will show scum you're shakeable, and even worse, it may encourage townies to start looking in your direction, regardless of how otherwise sound your defense is. This works against your win con. If you go about dissecting their case logically without being snide or using rhetoric or insults, however, the rest of town will be able to see how smoothly and easily their case had holes poked in it. You will look better as a result, and they will look worse for making such a bad case in the first place, not to mention they have the "bonus" of trying to find a new person to BS a case on while they're under heavy scrutiny. This works toward your win con.
- The player in question is choosing between you and someone that looks better than you in LYLO. If this happens and it leads to a scum victory, there's nothing to be done except tip your cap to scum for a well-played game, and then spend the rest of postgame going over why you were chosen over them and seeing what you can fix for the future. Mafia is a game, but it's a social game, so good sportsmanship is important. And, most of the time, the person that makes the wrong choice in LYLO is going to feel really bad about it (all the more reason not to rub it in that they made the wrong choice - personal experience speaks on this one), and will be more than open to figuring out why they made the wrong choice and what they can do to avoid making that wrong choice in the future.
- The player in question is ignoring their win con in favor of carrying out a personal vendetta against you. If this is the case, you can simply ignore it, as they will be slammed hard for it after the game. Or you can bring it up with the game mod and have them talk to this person. If that person refuses to back down, ignore them and let the mod handle them. I know that I don't want people actively being anti-win-con assholes in my games and will gladly remove any such offenders as I please.
Then there is the occasional oddity, like an Insane/Paranoid Cop getting a Guilty return on you, to which there's nothing you can do but shrug your shoulders postgame and go "it was part of the setup". Or maybe someone is just simply flat-out mistaken, to which the bullet point about the new/inexperienced player largely applies. Getting mad at an experienced player over a case is more likely to make them want to hold on and not let go, which hurts both of you (and your team and win con as a result). Everyone makes in-game mistakes sometimes; it's best to just let them go after the fact. (Imagine what it would have been like if bofh had gone on a public multi-paragraph rant about how stupid you are after MotK Mafioso, just because you made a mistake.) No one wants to be on the receiving end of one of those, especially when they know they made a mistake.
As you can see, in all of these examples, going the logic route instead of going the vitriol route either works better toward your win con (the "game" part) or works better toward your social interactions (the "social" part), and it does so without risking damage to the one it doesn't actively work toward (if there is one).
What specifically can you do to quelch vitriol? I'll point again at the post you edited away, and the purpose behind its existence. That's a good start. Private, away-from-the-game stress relief can work, even something as cliche as punching a pillow. There are other things you can do, too.
- Don't call things "stupid", "retarded", "bullshit", "fucking [negative adjective]", or the like. No one likes being treated like that. I'm sure you don't. Instead, try things like "This is just silly, as [fairly obvious core Mafia reasoning]" or "This is factually incorrect, as can be seen in [post number/link]" or "That is not what I meant, and by looking at [post number/link], [post number/link] and [post number/link], you can see it is pretty clear what I DID mean, which is [reiteration of previous stance]". If someone is wrong about you, don't tell them they're wrong, show them they're wrong.
- Remind yourself that it's just a game, and that humans are liable to make mistakes. No one is going after you personally (aside from maybe RVS but that can be brushed off as lolRVS), and if they are they will be dealt with either during or after the game.
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Ok. I'm going to note that this point that Affinity's post was so wrong, careless, and overall terrible, not in the scum sense but in the anti-town silliness sense, that I actually had to take a 15 minute break before continuing. I'd appreciate it if both you and Kefit actually read the game so your posts didn't read like you were just making up a pile of crap to look productive. I think that's the kindliest way I can put things.
1) Don't insult your fellow players.
2) Don't tack on pithy statements that emphasize the insults such as "I think that's the kindest way I can put things" or "I had to take a 15 minute break before I could continue."
3) This is just one example of many, but probably what sticks out the worst to me.
4) Don't try to excuse your behavior by saying you were angry. Tough. Deal with your anger without taking it out on your fellow players. This game tends to stir a lot of emotions in players, but everyone is expected to remain civil.
Zak's kill I give you some credit for. As I said in the scumtopic, you got him for the right reason on d1. However, any n1 vig shot is going to involve a substantial amount of luck, especially if it's your MO to use the vig on n1 every time. Congrats on getting it right, that's something a lot of players never manage.
As for your case on me, I still don't really get what it was. Affinity was pursuing my narrow-minded d2 (his best point by far) along with picking at the nuances of my subsequent posts. However, at least to all the other players, your points against me were either non-existent or lost in a cloud of fiery antagonism and indignant OMGUS. I honestly replied to the only salient points I could pick out with this post (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,7063.msg445208.html#msg445208), and your only response to this was to say that the post sucked (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,7063.msg445212.html#msg445212). That's not an argument. That's an attempt to bully your way into being right in lieu of logical argument. And that doesn't work in this game, at least not when faced with players of the caliber we had alive on d4. If you had a better case against me, then no one saw it because it wasn't written in your posts.
You might get angry reading the above paragraph. But stop and think for a second. This is post-game. Affinity and I have no reason to lie to you. Neither of us saw the logical case you had against me. At the very least you failed to properly communicate during the game itself.
Look, I liked reading your posts on d1 and d2. They were fiery in a peppy, enjoyable way. You got down to business without resorting to insults, even if you occasionally came off as a bit holier than thou (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,7063.msg438187.html#msg438187). But then on d3 your gloves came off, and I think that we started largely tuning you out. No one wants to sift through a mountain of insults and pithy statements to try and find pieces of a logical argument that may or may not exist within a post. And this is not how anyone writing a post for this game should desire others to view their handiwork.
p.s. Reading the scum topic as a losing townie is a sure way to get angry. The scum topic is a very powerful tool (one that I often see woefully underutilized), and one of its many functions is as a morale booster for the scum. Try to read everything said about town players with a grain of salt.
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...what, the game is over? Affinity, wth lol :V
yeah I was p.idiotic this game, I guess I'm like the most inconsistent player ever (I did really well last two games ): ) but at least in the end I knew the scum in the graveyard. Whatever, that's worthless. I need to do better next time. I wouldn't have ever even tried such a stupid gambit if I hadn't been so worthless for the first two days, which is my fault.
Oh it's time to host my game! This really kind of came at a badish time, but honestly, I should be totally ready to start the game by the time all the slots are filled, so that's fine. Off to post in signups thread!
Note to anyone who saw me talking about my game in irc within a few months ago:I toned it down okay ): But it should still be p.interesting.
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When I said that hurt in the QT, I mean that literally fucking hurt me in the squishy spot, Bard.
While not as much as being hurt in the squishy spot, your actions only served to increase my increasing frustration with the game set off at the start by UncertainKitten. After that time you retained your antagonistic streak and I lost interest more and more in the game. I spent most of LYLO just posting garbage, knowing it served absolutely nothing because I was stalling having anything to do with the game.
The entire game I have been frustrated and angry with how everything was going. I requested a replacement/modkill on D1 or D2 and retracted it a few hours later because I did not want to saddle up Sakana with modkills or replacements if it could be helped and I've sucked up as much as I could the entire game.
So, no, I won't apologise for what I've said because it would be insincere. At that time, I really felt you were ruining the game with your antagonism, and at that time you complained primarily that I was gunning for lurkers, which I linked to you due to your own low amount of posts moreso as a throw-away line of "IF I really did that, I would need to add you to that list. That I have NOT added you to my list of suspects is because I do not use that as a basis of scumhunting". Did I word that wrongly? Well, sure, but did I have any ill intent at that time?
No. My massive displeasement with you came only after the snide remarks, and after that I refused to read your posts in detail because I was sure that getting into a catfight with you would end in modkills, and I wanted to avoid getting in a situation where I'd want to step out of the game.
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As far as ruling by basis of elimination, I think it was more sincere and as town, I do not like to lie about my reasons for voting beyond what is necessary. "Once you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth". This line of reasoning led me to scumKefit, and it did not fail me in particular.
If you pay attention, I also went on to actually find things on Kefit that I could reasonably level against him as suspect content, due to a failure of suspicious content in Affinity's posts, and my belief at the time that Chaore's dogged persistance in pursuing me was not pro-town, but it was so bad on so many levels and ignored by so many people I was content to leave him be.
Had I entered LYLO with Affinity, Chaore and myself, I would have likely voted Chaore for the basic principle that Not Me Over Me, assuming he'd come out guns blazing at me. In the end, I think scum would still have won, and so they played a good game.
A shame Affinity decided on the out-there theory that UK was scum, but what can you do. It's a theory I've certainly entertained, but it just seemed so absurd to me and it would be UK-like to support her conviction with a vig shot. No one else paid any notice to Zakeri's death, and so I spent most the game thinking UK vigged him. UNtil she claimed Witch, then I remembered reading one which could poison and assume she did that.
I was shaken when she claimed having protected Kilga N1, but things became better near the end as I just A) don't actually like reading UK's posts due to the antagonistic vibes I get from her and B) assumed UK was town by virtue of the role and it just being too ridiculous a stratagem to actually employ.
That said, I think I will be abstaining from joining further games. While I will not take back my comment nor apologise for it to Chaore, I do feel that I went too far if I caused him grief, and I have no intention of being a demotivator to another's game at all. Given my views of UK, I also feel that it is best I not share a game with her again, as Mafia isn't big enough for the both of us apparently!
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To do share a bit of response on UncertainKitten, and I will try to say this in a nice and harmless way. I can say the following on what causes my ire with you.
First of all, it is an attitude thing. At one point I began ignoring you, the reason of which was to avoid getting pissed off and doing Stupid Things. You replied demanding that I respond to you and telegraph my reasons for ignoring you.
To you, you were probably trying to figure out why I was ignoring you and to try and ameliorate that, or work beyond it. To me, you were being a self-centred, tantrum-throwing UncertainKitten who was obnoxiously demanding I enter a fight with her so she could show how wrong I was.
Which leads into Problem Number 2 I have with your conduct in Mafia. It is the insistence that you are absolutely faultless and that any case on you must be supported by linking every post and to argue the minute details of each moment to a perfection, which is honestly a tiring and exhausting venture. To demand this of players is to demand a level of effort you deem appropriate, and to be inconsiderate of what they consider Proper Mafia Effort.
When I pressed you for active lurking, obviously, I was convinced you were actively lurking by refusing to say anything except in response to others. It was a declaration to be passive and bring forth no plan of action, instead hanging back waiting for others to do things and then analyse that.
Your response was antagonistic insofar that you basically treated me like some five-year-old who accidentally blundered into a Mafia thread and dared to not understand you are Town. It came off as a haughty defence, and the "link me to every instance" thing is again a matter of inconsiderate behaviour and demands for all others to adjust themselves to you.
It is these problems, and majorly the demand that everyone adjust themselves to you if they want to interact with you, that make me shy away from you and want little if nothing to do with you when it is related to Mafia games. I am sure you can be a nice and amazing person to talk to out of Mafia games, but at present I have no desire to share a Mafia game with you, as I am still as massively frustrated as I was at the inception of the argument between the two of us in the early game.
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Anyway, searching the right combination of words like the ones I did hit upon a pastebin that had a description of everyone's roles and who was who as the second link.
I found it by stalking Serela over google.
:getdown:
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Hmm...yeah...those all make a lot of sense. I'm sorry you feel I was expecting too much of you, Bard. I honestly didn't see your accusation so I wanted you to prove it. The way I went about it was bad, though...
Anyway, Kefit, yeah, it looks like I kinda failed to say anything of substance on why you were scummy. I wish I could remember now what triggered and proved it to me. I don't think that I got lucky on you, but I DO think that I failed miserably in explaining the logic, and now I don't even know what it is anymore since I never noted it. So I think I understand why everyone is saying I got lucky, now. I guess I assumed everyone was a mind reader so I could have moral high ground which in retrospect was pretty stupid of me.
I'm not really getting into more than that because I basically don't see anything wrong with the analyses provided. They all make a lot of sense. I'll do my best to work on them whether it's here and/or on MS for awhile (I'm...ah...not sure I'll be playing mafia here for awhile)
I do want to ask one thing of you, Bard. If I am given the opportunity to return to mafia here, I'd like you to at least entertain the thought of giving me a second chance. I don't actually like pissing people off. I don't like being disliked. And I want to fix the conflict here. Of course, it's entirely your prerogative and it'd be absurd to expect you to just say yes. But...I'd like you to consider it.
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So, I've been discussing things in PM, and a wonderful suggestion was lighted upon that I think could work.
Yeah, I need to do my best to follow the advice in here, and will do so. But, also, I think that if players would be willing to tell me when I'm being offensive in a neutral way, and more importantly explain why (as opposed to what usually happens where I'm just called antagonistic and then ignored), we'd have an even higher chance of an enjoyable game. Like, here's an example I was given.
UK: "Kefit is scum. ##VOTE. Wake me up when he's dead. The case on Kilga is retarded."
Player: "UK, that's offensive. We think the case on Kilga is good, why is it retarded?"
The main components of the hypothetical player's admonishment are these. One, it neutrally assesses the statement as offensive, as opposed to calling me or my behavior names (yay hypocrisy, yeah, I know). The second part is a succinct explanation of game relevant views. The third part, and one of the most important, is it questions my assumption, and isolates where the problem is. This is a more powerful tool than you'd think. I'm trying to question myself more, prompting me will help a lot with that.
I HOPE such admonishment won't be required in future games I'm in, but I think having that as a failsafe is the most optimal solution. Does that sound at all like a good idea?
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@UK: Okay, reading your quicktopic sort of proves that it was quite far from luck. And I suppose I was wrong about that list, sorry about that.
Also, your suggestion could work, but there was one instance here (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,7063.msg444992.html#msg444992) which you have to be careful... If we think that a post is a little out of line and say that, you have to accept it, I think.
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Yeah, I'm aware I have to not bite your heads off if you call me out. That'd be counter productive. I'll point out that post did lack an explanation, but my reaction was still uncharitable.
Basically, I think the explanation portion is what's going to carry it best.
At any rate, Kilga brings up a good point about how I reacted to your vote, Affinity. I was way out of line there as well, and trashing you after you'd probably been feeling bad was really insensitive of me. I owe you an apology for at least that, and probably my overall conduct this game. So...I'm sorry about the antagonism and then heaping on a bunch of shame on you for making an honest mistake you probably already felt bad about.
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No worries. Part of it was warranted though; I can understand how being suddenly voted like that in LyLO could have made you angry.
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Eh, gets into the difference between being angry and how you express that anger. Getting angry was perfectly justified. The way I displayed it was completely unjustifiable and honestly quite rude and terrible. You made a bad choice, but I'm pretty sure everyone does, several times.
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You didn't lose us the game anyway, Affinity. It was a team effort. Don't feel bad about it.
Also, UK is trying to shift all the blame to herself, so just call her out on it and get her to stop. ;)
UK quit it if Affinity says she is partly at fault as well, just nod and stop trying to argue who is the most at fault. It's not a contest of "most to blame". ;(
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You made a bad choice, but I'm pretty sure everyone does, several times.
hi :]
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You're in a whole different level, mister Fakecop.
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Knew that was coming. Sorry, it's hard to derail ingrained habits like that, especially ones you get the impression are "good". Since it hypothetically alleviates someone else's pain and such, etc. I'll try harder to basically just say "Ok, fine, we both screwed up in some way"